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  1. #1
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    New Shimano Alfine 11-Speed

    Hi,

    in german only, sorry:
    http://www.radfahren.de/news/detaila...gang-nabe.html

    google translate:
    http://translate.google.com/translat...ml&sl=de&tl=en

    - Shimano SG-S700
    - 11Speed
    - 409%
    - September 2010

    Regards
    Otto

  2. #2
    Rohloff
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    Wow! I'm looking forward to that. I've got an Alfine 8 and a Rohloff. The Rohloff has a little too much range. I rarely find myself in the top few gears. The Afline 8 is fine most of the time but a little extra range would be nice. The Alfine 11 sounds just right. I hope they've made the steps between the gears more even.

  3. #3
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    Thanks for the link, that's fantastic news!

  4. #4
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    More (new) details from the german website:


    Price: about 300 - Euro (420$)
    Weight: approx 1600 grams
    Gear ratio: 409%
    Jumps: 2 x 17% and 8 x 13%
    Oil lubrication: 25 milliliters

  5. #5
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    This could be great...I wonder if it'll receive endorsement from Shimano for mountain bike usage...
    baker

  6. #6
    Frt Range, CO
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    I bet the SRAM marketing person in charge of promoting the i-Motion 9 broke down and cried

    Quote Originally Posted by baker
    This could be great...I wonder if it'll receive endorsement from Shimano for mountain bike usage...
    I don't need an endorsement, I just need it to withstand mountain bike usage

  7. #7
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    Will all the shifter options still suck? It is unlikely Jtek will be making a new model any time soon.

  8. #8
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    The oil bath lubrication is exciting news. That, in and of itself, should prove to be a great step forward.
    speedub.nate
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  9. #9
    Missouri Chubber
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    OMG i can't believe shimano is moving a project such as this forward. An affordable version of the Rohloff with TRIGGER SHIFTERS. Now I HAVE to build that FS 29er i've been salivating over. Please post any developments in this direction. I have scanned the IGH forum for something like this for months. PLEASE let this hub enter production.

  10. #10
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  11. #11
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    "Affordable version of the Rohloff" is <i>probably</i> an overstatement, given Shimano's history to date. I hope it'll be as durable as the current Alfine, but for $400, doubt it'll measure up to the Speedhub's legendary reliability.
    speedub.nate
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  12. #12
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    Ah, this is perfect timing. I'l likely be picking this up for my commuter/bikepacking 29er setup. I've found my nexus 8 to be a little high for slogging up hills with a load, and I'm not really down for lowering the gear ratio below 2/1. Here is to hoping this version is as durable as the alfine 8 and nexus models..

  13. #13
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    Excellent news!!! 25% more range, oil bath lubrication and the same weight. Where do I sign?

    Mark

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speedub.Nate
    "Affordable version of the Rohloff" is <i>probably</i> an overstatement, given Shimano's history to date. I hope it'll be as durable as the current Alfine, but for $400, doubt it'll measure up to the Speedhub's legendary reliability.
    Nate I know what you're saying, but at 1/4 the price if it's even 1/3 as reliable it's a better deal in the end. Even at wholesale the Rohloff is more than I spend on non-consumables in 3 years, so the Shimano could really fill a spot for we cheap a$$es.

  15. #15
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    Oh, I don't disagree. Between my wife and myself, we have 4 Speedhubs, but I also have a Nexus 7, a Sram Spectro 7, an iMotion 9 and now a Nuvinci. Three of the Speedhubs I purchased used (and relatively cheap), without much concern or hesitation. But I'd never feel comfortable buying a use Sram or Shimano hub, unless it was incidental to a bike purchase.

    All hubs have their place and I'm sure this new Shimano will be right up there. But I'll take the Speedhub's gear range and reliability off road at approximately 2x the price (used) vs. a new of the other. At least until the Alfine 11 hits the scene and proves itself reliable.
    speedub.nate
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  16. #16
    Frt Range, CO
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    I was thinking some day I'd own a Speedhub, if this Alfine 11 turns out as nice as the Alfine 8, I don't think there'll be any reason to own one, esp for 3x the cost.

  17. #17
    trail rat
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    Bikerumor has a good writeup. Looks sweet, lighter, less rolling resistance, increased range. And the shifter looks awesome!
    "The physician heals, Nature makes well" - real fortune cookie

    CCCMB trail work for trail access - SLO, CA

  18. #18
    emtb.pl
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    I currently run an Alfine in a C'dale BadBoy and a Rolo in the Nomad2
    The thing I like most about the Alfine is the silence. It realy makes the BadBoy stealth.
    This year I'll switch the BadBoy for a Mojo and the A11 sounds just perfect as I was a tad worried if th A8 will do. It was just fine in a flatland/winter BadBoy but I plan a bit more for the Mojo as my Nomad will be replaced with something little more FR.
    Last edited by krolik; 02-06-2010 at 03:51 PM.

  19. #19
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    what is included in the weight besides the rear hub? cog? shifter? cables?

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by hellocook

    what is included in the weight besides the rear hub? cog? shifter? cables?
    I would imagine just the hub, since the shifters, cog, cables and installation accessories are usually sold separately.
    speedub.nate
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  21. #21
    Heads up Flyboy!!
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    Looking forward to its intro to the US. Just spoke to my Shimano Dealer who says he'll look into getting me one sooner then later.

  22. #22
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    Looking forward to the new Alfine 11 more than I can say. Very good news as I was contemplating another A8. I need the build specs so I can get my rim and spokes ready.

  23. #23
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    Here's the first hands-on test I've read of the new hub:

    http://road.cc/content/news/13981-sh...-car-park-test
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  24. #24
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    Dammit, dammit, dammit. . . I had re-purposed my S3X funds for a Alfine 8, but now I'm thinking I may have to hold out for the 11.

  25. #25
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    i have been planning tu use a rohloff, but this alfine 11 looks like a promising alternative. sufficient range for me, less money, better cabling looks to me (as i understand just 1 cable on the drive side, may work with normal cable stops) and most important i can stick to rapidfire i am used to.

    also looks like far less weight. 120g less for the hub, no additional external shifting box (-120g), no axle plate (-35g), just one cable with cable stopper (-100g). probably some extra weight for the shifer (+50g). alltogether close to 1lbs. less weight than rohloff and in combination with a belt drive i should be on par with a regular XTR set up ...

    i assume centerlock disc brakes and normal spline shimano cog like for shimano cassettes. can somebody confirm? also, what is the best frame design for these hubs? i assume i also need a way to tighten the chain (or in my case belt drive)?
    Last edited by hellocook; 02-07-2010 at 12:04 PM.

  26. #26
    Missouri Chubber
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    Double Post sorry

  27. #27
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    Writeup looked promising from road.cc but I wonder just how MTB conditions they tested it in. After all the article is from a road bike mag and smoother more reliable or faster shifting even under load in a parking lot is quite a bit different than having to drop 2 or 3 gears halfway up a rocky hill.

    I am still holding my breath for a review done by a more abusive rider and ultimately I would like to see a true torque limit test like the one done on the alfine 8 on this forum to figure out how low you can push the ratios.

    On the upside the fact that shimano is so sure of there product is a very good indicator and the technical changes they mentioned did seem to be following in the steps of the rohloff which is the model standard in the IGH market. I just hope durability isn't sacrificed for a few grams as I know most users on this forum aren't overly concerned about saving 15-20grams when the tradeoff is possibly breaking a $600 (shipped) component. Hopefully the price stays reasonable as well. I was very happy to see the efforts made to integrate the hub with existing rapidfire shifters as that is the ONLY reason I have held off a rohloff purchase.

  28. #28
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    Very exciting news!

    I've been on a Rohloff for almost 3years and would never go back to derailers on my mt. bike! It's nice to see some more options coming to market. As much of an advocate as I am for the Rohloff, the price is still what it is...HIGH!

    When I last rode derailers, it was with a broken right thumb and trigger shifters. Every down-shift was very uncofortable but I toughed it out since I love to ride. After moving to the Rohloff, I learned to appreciate twist shifters in very short order. Everyone has their preference and I hope Shimano offers twist shift as an option with their new hub.

  29. #29
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    Cook, your weight analysis looks about right. An installed, disc brake-ready QR Speedhub with shifter, OEM2 axle plate & Speedbone is going to hit 2059g (not including brake rotor, cables or chain tensioner). <a href="http://www.booboodog.net/images/speedhub-weight-worksheet.gif">Speedhub weight worksheet</a>

    I believe Shimano normally sells the axle bolts and no-turn washers as separate kit, so they're probably not figured into the weight, but those are relatively minor items.

    One thing I am curious about is how this hub handles torque. (I see something funky when I zoom in on the drive side dropout <a href="http://road.cc/content/image/13969-shimano-alfine-11-sprocket">in this photo</a>.) I've seen pictures of horizontal dropouts that the Speedhub has pried open like pistachio shells due to the insane amount of torque generated in the lower gears. Shimano must be getting close to that danger zone as the gear spread increases, so I wonder if they'll be sticking with their traditional methods of anchoring the hub to the frame, and whether there'll be any implications for frames with vertical dropouts.

    As for the parking lot test vs. off-road, I think it's going to take some long term usage to determine whether this hub is up to the task. Lesser hubs have felt good initially, failing only after a handful of rides were put in. One item in particular to watch out for is that this hub is supposedly a complete redesign from the proven Alfine 8, so dirt-worthy success there isn't a guarantee of the same for the Alfine 11. But I doubt Shimano would take a backwards step in this respect, despite the fact that they're still not officially sanctioning these hubs for off-road use and abuse.

    Yes, things are looking up in the IGH world!
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  30. #30
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    thanks a lot nate!

    i guess i will wait some more weeks to order my custom frame and see what shimano comes up with.

  31. #31
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    Not to be too negative, but on the weight, I wouldn't expect a big savings compared to the Rohloff. I reported in an old post:

    Though Shimano claims 1590 grams, this must be for the bare hub. On a calibrated scale I measured 1847 grams for the whole rear hub assembly including: hub, dust cap, inner chain guard, 20T sprocket w/guard, snap ring, driver cap, cassette joint, cassette joint fixing ring, 1pr no turn washers and 1pr acorn axle nuts. If you go with the trigger shifter, you also have to add 223 grams for: shifter, cable, full length housing and cable fixing bolt.

    Comparing these numbers to those posted by Speedub.Nate and others, the weight between the Speedhub and Alfine looks about the same and the Speedhub can actually be lighter depending on what configuration you run.


    Granted the new shifter will hopefully save a few grams, but we'll see.

    Also, we are seeing conflicting info on the steps between gears. The OP reports 2 x 17% + 8 x 13% and the road.cc report says constant 17-18% but neither of those will give you 409% overall range, so it looks like we'll see in this regard also.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdrds17

    ...we are seeing conflicting info on the steps between gears. The OP reports 2 x 17% + 8 x 13% and the road.cc report says constant 17-18% but neither of those will give you 409% overall range, so it looks like we'll see in this regard also.
    I agree, not adding up. There might be a couple more 17-18% in there, and a few less 13's?

    I found a couple more "hands on" writeups posted today, but neither add anything to the piece posted on road.cc.

    http://www.bikeradar.com/news/articl...hub-gear-24930

    http://www.singletrackworld.com/2010...al-geared-hub/
    speedub.nate
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  33. #33
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    stars aligning

    ah .... this news just as my Milk Money is being built ; )))

    Not that I'll run a IGH all the time but that fact that the Alfine 11 will offer a wider range is great news!!!!

  34. #34
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    Anyone know about the engagement speed? Quick is good!

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by pureslop

    Anyone know about the engagement speed? Quick is good!
    With those roller clutches they switched to mid-stream on the Alfine 8, isn't it more or less instant engagement?
    speedub.nate
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  36. #36
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    milk money

    talked to Devin today about the Milkmoney. so which one of ya is gonna give up you hub for next to nothin so I can afford the Lenz.

    Its great to see advancement on the IGH front.


    IGH hubs are the new black!

    this bike w/ the new KH hoops and a DUC36....fat!
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    http://queencitycycles.com home of the shiftless bastards

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speedub.Nate
    With those roller clutches they switched to mid-stream on the Alfine 8, isn't it more or less instant engagement?
    Seems to be instant engagement according to this:
    http://road.cc/content/news/13981-sh...-car-park-test

    Edit: Just saw Speedhubnate already posted the same link.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by lil hillbilly

    talked to Devin today about the Milkmoney...
    Gah! IGH: the single best arguement for Devin's BB-centric pivot designs!

    You know who else? Haro! Haro needs to get a jump on this and begin building their VLS suspension with sliding dropouts. The could make a lot of gear hubbers and singlespeeders very happy.

    <img src="http://www.booboodog.net/images/haro-suspension.gif">
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  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by lil hillbilly
    talked to Devin today about the Milkmoney. so which one of ya is gonna give up you hub for next to nothin so I can afford the Lenz.

    Its great to see advancement on the IGH front.


    IGH hubs are the new black!

    this bike w/ the new KH hoops and a DUC36....fat!

    Hey!!!

    Thats what mine is going to look like too!!!! Except with a Reba maxle, XTR crank, TI luvs and a Brooks Swift ..... other than that identical

  40. #40
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    now I hate you

    sounds like its gonna have an IGH
    http://queencitycycles.com home of the shiftless bastards

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by lil hillbilly
    sounds like its gonna have an IGH
    Yeah ... eventually. The plan is to build it up SS first. Got a new King SS 36H Flow rear being built When the bike fund recovers and the Alfine 11 comes out I'll build up a Alfine Flow rear wheel!!!! Should be sweet. Gears with none of the chain slapping derailleur out of alignment nonsense!!!!!!!

    Now I just need the MM ... Patience ...... Patience

  42. #42
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    I'll take my Rohloff any day over my (former) Alfine 501 & current Nexus red-band.

    I've been using the Nexus red-band exclusively until recently & it just doesn't compare to the Rohloff. Which I bought used. Sure, the Rohloff is more expensive but I bought mine used already built-up into a wheel with some extra goodies at a great price. It was still more than twice the price of just a Alfine/Nexus red-band hub but as far as I'm concerned it's more than worth the price premium.

    And I basically prefer having one do-it-all bike that I ride on-road & on-trail & definitely need the range of the Rohloff to do both comfortably. Even here in flatland Florida.

    I suppose I could have two bikes, one with an Alfine set up for road use & the other with an Alfine set up for trail use but I prefer just having one bike that does it all. I don't do group rides on-road so have no need to keep up with anyone on-road & on-trail that's a non-issue.

    Definitely prefer the shifting of the Rohloff over the Alfine/Nexus. The Alfine/Nexus has an occasional irritating lag before shifting sometimes. It's actually more than irritating on-trail as it sometimes means working unnecessarily harder trying to maintain speed. Or completely impossible depending on the section of trail. Definitely in marked contrast to a derailleur system. Even an inexpensive one. Difference was obvious to me when I went back to a derailleur equipped bike recently.

    I just bought a pair of new (used) 26er folding bikes that I wasn't sure I'd like so didn't bother with switching anything in the drive trains out. Both of the bikes are identically equipped with an Alivio level group & Grip Shift & are 'only' 21 speeds. Even with this set up I was able to ride faster than I had been able to using my Nexus red-band. Tried to make the comparison a bit more equal by only using the big chain ring so I was basically riding a 7 speed & even so I was still able to ride faster on-trail. The bike(s) isn't(aren't) exactly new either, dating back to '96. And I was slightly handicapped by the slacker steering on the bikes. From what I remember, the HT angle is 69*. But, even so, once I made the adjustment, I was still faster.

    I've gone back to 26ers because they make a more practical travel bike. My Rohloff is currently laced to a 29er wheel so I haven't had a chance to ride it much lately.

    I've been trying to find another inexpensive used Rohloff hub that I can build up into a 26er wheel but so far haven't had any luck but with the Alfine 11 on the horizon I might just give it a shot instead. The price is definitely right. But if it shifts in the same way as the current Alfine/Nexus red-band I'll definitely take a pass & stick with a Rohloff. Even though it is more expensive.

  43. #43
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    I'm pretty excited about this hub,

    I've got a friend at Shimano that rode it to lunch. He said it shifted like XTR.

    One interesting thing, it uses helical gears. These would theoretically handle more torque, run quiter, and mesh more smoothly. This comes at the price of efficiency, but the oil bath replacing grease might cancel that out. I'm thinking this hub might be even more suitable to offroad use than the 8sp.

    Another interesting bit, the shifting is opposite of existing nexus/alfine hubs. This should mean less hesitation to shift into lower gears. That's my only complaint about my 8sp.

  44. #44
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    Forgot to ask, anyone know if it's going to be available in a QR version? That's another advantage (AFAIC) of the Rohloff. I do like my QR.

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by maxtheheathen
    One interesting thing, it uses helical gears. These would theoretically handle more torque, run quiter, and mesh more smoothly. This comes at the price of efficiency, but the oil bath replacing grease might cancel that out.
    Interesting that they're going that direction with the gears. One thing to remember about efficiency. Deraileured bikes are only more efficient when it's all clean and new. IGH have about 92% efficient and deraileurs about 96%. The problem is when your gears get muddy you loose efficiency really quickly and the figures can drop down into the 80s. With IGH gearing you won't loose too much, but you will loose some.

    All this info comes from studies done long ago (early '90s or so), but shouldn't have changed that much. I would like to see similar studies done with the newer modern parts and IGHs. Alas the efficiency thing is the buggaboo causing companies not to adopt IGH bikes throughout their lines.

  46. #46
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    I don't buy the argument that IGHs are more efficient than derailleur systems in poor riding conditions.

    When I was racing ATBs, I raced in some hellaciously muddy conditions & never noticed any drop in efficiency with my derailleur equipped bikes.

    Not even in clay mud mixed with pine needles which in the process of drying basically becomes something like adobe if you're unfortunate enough to start a race when it's wet but then continue long enough for conditions to dry up. Which I did. The only trouble I had was with shifting the front derailleur because of the accumulation of pine needles & clay in that area which wouldn't allow the front derailleur to return to the smaller chain rings. But that's the only race that's ever happened to me. There were a lot of DNFs in that race though. Psychological for the most part.

    I've had other races in which competitors wore thru a fresh set of XTR v-pads in one ~2 hr race. My old XTR center pull pads did just fine . But no issues with my derailleur equipped bike. Or, far as I know, anyone else's derailleur equipped bike.

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sometimes
    I don't buy the argument that IGHs are more efficient than derailleur systems in poor riding conditions.
    You don't have to believe anything you don't want to, but there have been a lot of studies done in Europe on such things. The best article I remember was in the old Bike Culture magazine I believe. If I remember correctly there is also information on this stuff in the Bicycling Science book and the old Bike Tech periodical.

    From personal experience if you can't tell the difference between a clean and dirty drive train, your drivetrain isn't getting very dirty. That or you're too busy worrying about other things to notice during a race.

  48. #48
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    I'm somewhat with you in that I don't think traditional derailleur efficiency falls off that much in real world muck. That said, I think the small amount of inefficiency of an IGH is mitigated by extraordinary quick, reliable shifting of an IGH.

    I had the opportunity to switch bikes back and forth on the same trail, on the same day, with same friend who is similarly skilled and fit. We did this on multiple rides on twisty, hilly singletrack. One bike was a derailled 26er (Kona Bear w/ XT). The other was a Rohloffed 29er (GF HiFi 29). We both agreed that we were working harder to keep up on the derailled 26er and more relaxed and fresh on the Rohloffed 29er. Both bikes were FS bikes with 4" of travel front and back. While we both felt that the bigger, more stable wheels on the 29er helped, timed lapse by others suggest that wheel size is insignificant. That leaves me feeling as though the IGH was at least as effient if not more so in the real world.

    I'd like to do a better comparison by renting a derailed GF HiFi29.

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by themanmonkey
    ...SNIP...
    From personal experience if you can't tell the difference between a clean and dirty drive train, your drivetrain isn't getting very dirty. That or you're too busy worrying about other things to notice during a race.
    I'm still not buying it. At least from my personal experience.

    That's just it, the drivetrain simply never gets dirty enough for there to be a significant (noticeable) fall-off in efficiency. At least the drivetrains on my bikes didn't. Despite conditions that the average rider wouldn't be riding under on-trail. There aren't any riders that I know of that will voluntarily elect to ride during rain on-trail. Let alone in clay.

    There are just two extra toothed pulleys compared to a IGH system so I just don't see how it's possible for the efficiency to be that much less under poor conditions. Short of purposely packing the rear derailleur & cogs with mud/debris.

  50. #50
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    "Extraordinary quick, reliable shifting of an IGH"?

    H'mm.

    Not AFAIC. At least not yet.

    Definitely not true of the Alfine/Nexus red-band. Perhaps I need more break in time but I think the shifting sucks compared to a properly tuned derailleur system. At least so far. I'm willing to give it more time. And I will. Probably at least a year before I decide yay or nay. Or until I can replace it with the Alfine 11.

    As for the Rohloff. Definitely better, IMO, than the Alfine/Nexus red-band in terms of shifting but my new (used) Rohloff might be slightly broken in. Or completely broken in. I don't know the exact mileage on it. But I was told less than 1K miles when I bought it & I've only put ~200 miles on it so far. And that's it for now because it's on a 29er rim & I'm currently riding a 26er with the Nexus red-band. With the price, even used, I'm inclined to really, really want it to work for me.

    Unlike the Alfine which I had no qualms passing on to a relative. And which may be the same fate of the Nexus red-band.

    Actually will be the same fate, if I can get my hands on an Alfine 11.

    Yeah, I've got the IGH fever. At least for the time being.

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by themanmonkey
    All this info comes from studies done long ago (early '90s or so)...
    Anyone who wants to speak intelligently on this subject and be taken seriously should be conversant with the Kyle/Berto study, beginning on page three of:

    http://www.ihpva.org/HParchive/PDF/hp52-2001.pdf

    Best,
    JD

  52. #52
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    Have you ever had a shifting problem with an IGH that wasn't corrected with a momentary pause in your pedal stroke? IGHs tend to not shift well under load. Once you get the rythm, shifts are almost flawless. There's no doubt, IGHs have their own bit of awkwardness, but they definitely beat the dropped chains, grinding, popping, slipped gears, ghost shifting, etc. of derailleurs.

  53. #53
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    gotta love it

    its great when these threads go wrong!! I cant wait till I dont have to worry about wrapin sticks up in a stupid der. or that same stupid der. not workin cause its full of mud.

    when these guys say that their derailleurs work just great no matter the nasty conditions it just makes me crazy! they are a peice of junk when it comes to muddy nasty weather.
    http://queencitycycles.com home of the shiftless bastards

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by john_dalhart
    Anyone who wants to speak intelligently on this subject and be taken seriously should be conversant with the Kyle/Berto study, beginning on page three of:
    http://www.ihpva.org/HParchive/PDF/hp52-2001.pdf
    Thanks John I hadn't seen that one. That's the first one I've ever seen that has efficiencies that go that high or that low. The lower high end I've seen might be an average based on highest and lowest efficiencies caused by cross chaining on geared drivetrains.

    Alas it's only laboratory testing and real world conditions aren't taken into account. I wonder if using a SRM crank with various rear wheels you could imitate real world riding. Maybe I'll chat with the guys I know from Bicycle Quarterly and see if they can figure out a real world test.

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sometimes
    I'm still not buying it. At least from my personal experience.
    Again you you don't have to believe anything, but try this.
    1. Get a rear der and make sure it's clean and run a chain though it.
    2. Pack the rear der with mud around the cage and pulleys.
    3. When you run a chain though it you'll notice the resistance.
    Any resistance against the chain and pulleys is a decrease in efficiency. If the dirt gets between the inner and outer plates of the chain and reduces flex you loose efficiency.

    Most riders don't "notice" a loss in efficiency. Can you notice a change inefficiency when riding in your middle ring and middle cog and when you ride in your large ring and large cog?

    One of the other problems is that the bikes people compare things to are different and not ridden side by side. I did some real world testing in the '90s with a CX bike built up using 3 different hubs. One wheel was a 7 speed cassette, one was a S-A AW3, and the last was another IGH that I don't remember (Sachs Duomatic most likely). We would ride for a while then switch the wheel. The "noticeable" loss of efficiency wasn't that noticeable. Sure there was some, but not as great as expected.

  56. #56
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    - Derailleur drivetrains fill up with mud
    - Mud makes the bike heavier
    - Mud often causes ghost shifting and sometimes causes the gears to stop shifting completely
    - Being able to shift while not pedalling is very useful in muddy conditions
    - Derailleur drivetrains grind and rattle like a vintage paint mixer in muddy conditions
    - A derailleur drivetrain loses more efficiency than a gear hub when dry conditions turn to wet and muddy
    - Washing mud out of the cassette and other places often does damage to the rear hub, bottom bracket and pivots




  57. #57
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    news flash!!!!!!!!!

    derailleurs suck
    http://queencitycycles.com home of the shiftless bastards

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsdc
    Have you ever had a shifting problem with an IGH that wasn't corrected with a momentary pause in your pedal stroke? IGHs tend to not shift well under load. Once you get the rythm, shifts are almost flawless. There's no doubt, IGHs have their own bit of awkwardness, but they definitely beat the dropped chains, grinding, popping, slipped gears, ghost shifting, etc. of derailleurs.
    Well ... I seem to be having those on a too regular basis. And it's not something I particularly like. So far, none of my IGHs compare too favorably to derailleurs. Even those part of a low-level component group. I'm currently (well ... not exactly ... but you know what I mean) riding a '96 ATB with an Alivio group & Grip Shift that shifts flawlessly in comparison to all my IGHs. Past & present. Rohloff included (much as it pains me to write that). But I'm willing to give it time. I really want my IGHs to work for me as I prefer the external simplicity of an IGH.

    Dropped chain -- nyet!
    Grinding -- nyet!
    Popping -- nyet!
    Slipped gears -- nyet!
    Ghost shifting -- nyet!

    At least for me. But I've been riding for a very long time, & I've worked on bikes just as long.

    Sure, derailleurs take some initial tuning but once they're dialed in, they stay that way or at the most require additional occasional fine-tuning at the adjusting barrel of the shifter. It's not exactly rocket science.

    I've been lucky enough to have never, ever damaged a rear derailleur. The worst thing that's happened to a rear derailleur on any of my bikes is I had one of the pulleys fall off because I neglected to loctite the pulley bolt. The only other time I've had a problem with a rear derailleur is when I tried 'supposedly' sealed bearing rear derailleur pulleys. Those quickly ceased. Literally. Ceased rotating.

    I suppose, one explanation, for my lack of problems with derailleur systems is that I must have been riding in some sort of protective bubble in my 40+ years of riding. Seems as good as any.

    But I'll continue using IGHs until I've satisfied myself that they're just not working for me. Considering what I paid for my (used) Rohloff, that might take a couple of years. It will be hard to let go of something that I paid so much for. And had really high hopes for.

    Only time will tell.

  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by themanmonkey
    Again you you don't have to believe anything, but try this.
    1. Get a rear der and make sure it's clean and run a chain though it.
    2. Pack the rear der with mud around the cage and pulleys.
    3. When you run a chain though it you'll notice the resistance.
    Any resistance against the chain and pulleys is a decrease in efficiency. If the dirt gets between the inner and outer plates of the chain and reduces flex you loose efficiency.

    Most riders don't "notice" a loss in efficiency. Can you notice a change inefficiency when riding in your middle ring and middle cog and when you ride in your large ring and large cog?

    One of the other problems is that the bikes people compare things to are different and not ridden side by side. I did some real world testing in the '90s with a CX bike built up using 3 different hubs. One wheel was a 7 speed cassette, one was a S-A AW3, and the last was another IGH that I don't remember (Sachs Duomatic most likely). We would ride for a while then switch the wheel. The "noticeable" loss of efficiency wasn't that noticeable. Sure there was some, but not as great as expected.
    Maybe I've just been lucky, but that's just never happened on any of my derailleur equipped bikes. Front derailleur yes. But it doesn't have any pulleys so the only result is a 7-8-9-10 speed depending on the rear cogset.

    Will admit to having 'junk' get tangled up in the cogset at times when I've been unfortunate enough to accidentally veer off-trail into undergrowth. Now, that, definitely affected shifting! And I sometimes had to stop to get it out. After waiting a bit to see if would either work its way out or become embedded deeply enough between the cogs that it wasn't an issue. So ... I'd just ease up a bit on the pedals until I decided whether I needed to stop or not.

    For me, at least, the efficiency of an IGH is a non-issue. I like them (for now) & I ride what I like.

  60. #60
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    Well, no need to suffer. You seem to be trying to convince us that derailleurs are better but you seem unwilling to give up IGH. A used Rohloff sell for just a bit less than a new one. If you bought yours used, you should be able to get all your money back. Then you can ride what you really like.

    FWIW, I don't think IGHs are better. I think they're about equal to derailleurs. There's just a few ever so slight trade offs. I just prefer the attributes of IGHs, and if they are a tiny bit less efficient, my old, fat butt can't seem to perceive it. In fact, it would seem that my ham-fisted mechanical and riding skills make the simplicity of IGHs more efficient for me.

    To each his own.

  61. #61
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    there we go

    real it back in brother. thanks
    http://queencitycycles.com home of the shiftless bastards

  62. #62
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    Bending the Rear Deraillur cage or the Rear deraillur hangar is what I would be going with an alfine-11 or rohloff (if they ever make non twist shift) for. The efficiency and weight arguements are all well and good but I ride FS and I weigh 210lb naked. A bit of efficiency or weight isn't going to break the camel's back but a bent rear deraillur hangar renders the perfectly dialed in rear deraillur nigh useless. I have gone through 3 deraillur hangars in a year. 1 to crunching on a rock garden, 1 due to a medium sized stick in the trail kicking up just right to grind the hell out of the rear derail. till the hangar bent (something had to give) and 3 was some unnoted obstacle on the trail which I discovered on the next hill as my rear deraillur proceeded to dump my chain and break a spoke.

    Granted I live in Missouri so the trails are FAR from nice clean hardpack. While there isn't the epic climbs that colorado or pisgah might have, we do have very narrow flowy singletrack littered with rock gardens and debris. If I never have to replace or bend back that damned deraillur hangar again I will be ecstatic. I really feel eliminating the whole rear mech siginificantly increases the durability of the entire drivetrain as well. It just seems so archaich to have the whole drivetrain extrenal taking the abuses of the trail and weather. Cars found an easy solution to this somewhere back around 1900, why the hell has it taken so long for bikes to follow? I can't help but feel that eliminating the rear mech pulleys increases efficiency a bit as well as they never seem to stay too lubricated for too long.

    I also have to say I would love to be able to grind the last bit of a hill when shifting late instead of popping the chain and dumping it off the front gears. A late shift on a hill is a bad decision period but when it is made I feel the typical response of a derailled system (dumping your chain instantly) is about the worst possible choice.

    My 2 cents

  63. #63
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    Thanks for putting the image of a naked 210 pound guy in my head.

    I was real put off with going with twist shifters when I finally decided I really wanted a Rohloff. Now I find I like them just as well as trigger shifters.

    An IGH doesn't necessarily eliminate snapped derailleur hangers and such. Most FS bikes require a chain tensioner. FWIW, I've never had a problem with my tensioner. Chain tensioners are usually smaller and tuck in tighter so I think they tend to grab less debris.

    Here's something to cleanse everyones minds:


  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by EGF168

    - Derailleur drivetrains fill up with mud
    - Mud makes the bike heavier
    ...
    As much as a fanboy I am for gear hubs, I feel it's important to not pull any punches. Geared hubs ARE heavier -- generally 600 to 700g with the Rohloff, and it looks like about the same with Alfine.

    As impressive as those pics are, I think it's safe to say that that much is abnormal for most riders. Nevertheless, it doesn't take much muck (rather, it doesn't take THAT much muck) to foul a derailleur drivetrain.

    Cool shots, BTW.
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  65. #65
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    Thanks!

    Still doesn’t change the fact that derailleur drivetrains can gain a big amount of weight (in mud) that SS and IGH bikes can’t. Maybe it is abnormal for most of the world’s riders but here in the UK it isn’t, and I know a couple of local riding groups who’ll back me up on that.

    What are the conditions like in Florida Sometimes?

  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by EGF168
    Thanks!

    Still doesn’t change the fact that derailleur drivetrains can gain a big amount of weight (in mud) that SS and IGH bikes can’t. Maybe it is abnormal for most of the world’s riders but here in the UK it isn’t, and I know a couple of local riding groups who’ll back me up on that.

    What are the conditions like in Florida Sometimes?
    And here I thought your muddy drivetrain pics were staged. Definitely some nice pics. And I can see why you'd prefer an IGH.

    But that just hasn't been my experience. But the only time I purposely rode in the rain/mud was during a race. Or more recently, if I happen to get caught in a rainstorm during a ride. Even so, my worst mud race ever didn't have any effect on the rear part of the drivetrain. Just the front. The accumulation of clay mud & pine needles at the front derailleur prevented it from shifting down without having to stop long enough to clear the clay/pine needle mixture. But I did that for the whole bike at times during that race because of the added weight & because the clay/pine needle mixture was slowing tire rotation as it was drying.

    Conditions in Florida vary depending on the course & weather. But generally it's considered bad trail etiquette to ride a trail here while it's still muddy. Exceptions being races. Or those folks that just don't give a darn. I know folks in the UK & other wet parts of the world don't have much choice, otherwise they wouldn't be doing much trail riding.

  67. #67
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    So let me get this straight you don't actually ride in mud and it seems like you've only experienced it a few times. Your also now say that your shifting was affected by the mud contrary to your previous statements. Can you see how this shows that you have little idea about the affect of mud on a drivetrain and all your earlier posts can be designated as trolling?

    Many of the rest of us posting have extensive experience with various drivetrains in the mud. Should we take the words of someone who has little experience in mud have the same weight as someone who has a couple decades of PacNW riding under their belt?

  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsdc
    Have you ever had a shifting problem with an IGH that wasn't corrected with a momentary pause in your pedal stroke?
    Very often with my Shimano IGH , never with my Rohloff.
    THE biggest problem with the Shimano IGH is their shifting , a spring loaded , derailleur like system that is entirely shifter and cable tension dependant. Also the moving part on the Shimano hub is prone to mud/ice jamming , just like a conventional derailleur. Something you won't have on a Rohloff.
    I use Shimano IGH hubs since they came out on my commuters and they are not reliable in snowy/icy conditions.

    Still ride Shimanos , as I don't have the budget to ride a Rohloff on my commuter , so this 11 speed is a very good news. But I'm not a beleiver on my MTB since I already tasted the shifting of the Rohloff......
    "There is a big difference between kneeling down and bending over" -FZ

  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by themanmonkey
    So let me get this straight you don't actually ride in mud and it seems like you've only experienced it a few times. Your also now say that your shifting was affected by the mud contrary to your previous statements. Can you see how this shows that you have little idea about the affect of mud on a drivetrain and all your earlier posts can be designated as trolling?

    Many of the rest of us posting have extensive experience with various drivetrains in the mud. Should we take the words of someone who has little experience in mud have the same weight as someone who has a couple decades of PacNW riding under their belt?
    Reading comprehension doesn't appear to be your strong suit so you don't have any credibility with me.

    Try again.

  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speedub.Nate
    Gah! IGH: the single best arguement for Devin's BB-centric pivot designs!

    You know who else? Haro! Haro needs to get a jump on this and begin building their VLS suspension with sliding dropouts. The could make a lot of gear hubbers and singlespeeders very happy.

    <img src="http://www.booboodog.net/images/haro-suspension.gif">

    I've emailed Haro twice in the past year (once regarding horiz or custom dropouts and once regarding EBB) in terms of my desire to run their design with an IGH and no tensioner -- they currently have no plans to go there, so I stopped looking at their new 650b. My local dealer wouldn't sell frame-only either... lots of roadblocks.

    Milk$ ... but why does Devin's headtube/downtube/toptube junction have to look so fugly?

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by V02 deficient

    I've emailed Haro twice in the past year (once regarding horiz or custom dropouts and once regarding EBB) in terms of my desire to run their design with an IGH and no tensioner -- they currently have no plans to go there, so I stopped looking at their new 650b. My local dealer wouldn't sell frame-only either... lots of roadblocks.
    I'm not sure an EBB would work well with that design -- the spindle to be at the center of the pivot to run tensionerless, and an EBB would offset it. But horizontal or sliding drops would be tits. I'm convinced Haro is missing out on an untapped market, even if they'd do a short run of slider-equipped rear triangles to sell aftermarket.

    As for frame only, I've never let it stop me before. Some brands let you buy their frame only for $1200+, but it always works out to be much cheaper to buy a complete mid-range bike and sell off all the components. This has covered the entire cost of the bike on occassion, and at other times brought the price down into to the $300-$400 range.

    With the popularity of singlespeed, and now this increasing market of IGHs, there has got to be some demand for tensionerless fullies.
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  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by V02 deficient
    I've emailed Haro twice in the past year (once regarding horiz or custom dropouts and once regarding EBB) in terms of my desire to run their design with an IGH and no tensioner -- they currently have no plans to go there, so I stopped looking at their new 650b. My local dealer wouldn't sell frame-only either... lots of roadblocks.

    Milk$ ... but why does Devin's headtube/downtube/toptube junction have to look so fugly?

    I know the saying "it never hurts to ask" but most big name bike companies are gonna just shrug their shoulders or ignore you when you ask about stuff that doesnt really concern their reputation, financial benefit, or warranty policy. The bikes are built in Taiwan. (or some place in asia) And customer service is customer service. Not riders.

  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by SmilMick

    I know the saying "it never hurts to ask" but most big name bike companies are gonna just shrug their shoulders or ignore you when you ask about stuff that doesnt really concern their reputation, financial benefit, or warranty policy. The bikes are built in Taiwan. (or some place in asia) And customer service is customer service. Not riders.
    You're out-of-pocket on that, Mick. I'm not a Haro customer, and never have been, but they have some of the more active and responsive company presence here on the forums (in particular the Haro forum) by Downhill Jill, their brand manager.

    Just because they have their frames manufactured in Taiwan does not make them a faceless Taiwanese company. As with Niner and Surly and other similarly positioned brands, they're a US company owned and operated by real human beings and -- from what I've gathered over the years -- open to customer suggestions and new ideas.

    In short, exactly the type of company I expect might act on such a request, given enough interest from the customer base.
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  74. #74
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    Well, here's my message to Haro:

    Number of Threads on MTBR:

    650b, 69er, and New Wheel Trends: 1,812.

    29er: 30,818

    SingleSpeed: 19,655

    Internal Gear Hubs: 363

    Now, I hate to use a cliche but "650b is an answer to a question that (almost) nobody asked." Drop it and move on. 26ers and 29ers should make 99+% of the market happy. 3x9s are hear to stay for quite some time. Make plenty. SS's are obviously popular. If you are looking for a niche, being the first on the block with a production FS SS frame would really make Haro a standout, and I think you'd sell quite a few. Don't want to fully commit to a FS SS frame? Just put a sliding dropout with a derailleur hanger on all the frames. Call it "Haro Adjustable Geometry" or HAG. Make a 26er and a 29er so everyone is happy. As a bonus, those of us IGH freaks can have our fun, and you will be cued up to be the first company to have Shimano's up and coming mountain bike approved IGH.

  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deserteagle99uzi
    Cars found an easy solution to this somewhere back around 1900, why the hell has it taken so long for bikes to follow?
    Actually, the first commercially successful cycling IGH came on the market in 1898. Admitedly, some riders are late to the party...

    JD

  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsdc
    Well, here's my message to Haro:

    being the first on the block with a production FS SS frame would really make Haro a standout
    What about the Kona A?

  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speedub.Nate
    The oil bath lubrication is exciting news. That, in and of itself, should prove to be a great step forward.

    hey nate, please explain. they didn't have oil lubrication before??
    the time is right for violent revolution

  78. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikecop
    they didn't have oil lubrication before??
    Nope, just great big glops of grease. Or some time none at all, depending on how long you ran it. Actually, you should see my Sram i9 -- it's bleeding grease through the (poor excuse for a) seal!
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  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by C.P.
    What about the Kona A?
    Good design for keeping the chainstay length a constant but not a good design with regard to pedalling and suspension performance. The tensioned run of chain/belt induces squat.

  80. #80
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    i have a bunch of bikes and have been riding for 20 years
    I have a full XTR and a full XX setup, and I love the way my alfine shifts !

    Will for sure try to get an Alfine11 for test ASAP
    Frenchspeaking 29"ers community site http://VingtNeuf.org

  81. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Surestick Malone
    Seems to be instant engagement according to this:
    http://road.cc/content/news/13981-sh...-car-park-test

    Edit: Just saw Speedhubnate already posted the same link.
    Sorry, I was asking about quick crank engagement, not quick gear change engagement. You know, like how a Chris King rear hub has quick engagement.

  82. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by pureslop
    Sorry, I was asking about quick crank engagement, not quick gear change engagement. You know, like how a Chris King rear hub has quick engagement.
    I thought that's what they were talking about.
    On re-reading the review I don't see where I got the impression they said it was instant engagement so disregard what I said I guess!

  83. #83
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    So, anyone know if any companies are already working on a brifter for this? I'd love to do a monstercross drop bar set up.

  84. #84
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    I second zombinate's question, I smell a good monster cross set-up here, as long as I could shift it with drop bars.

    Also, can anyone tell me what a 409% gear range is equivalent to? Is it like, say a (hypothetical) 11-40 cassette? Can someone give me a number I could plug into Sheldon Browns gear calculator to play around with what gearing might work for me?
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  85. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by FishMan473
    I second zombinate's question, I smell a good monster cross set-up here, as long as I could shift it with drop bars.

    Also, can anyone tell me what a 409% gear range is equivalent to? Is it like, say a (hypothetical) 11-40 cassette? Can someone give me a number I could plug into Sheldon Browns gear calculator to play around with what gearing might work for me?
    Even the 8 speed is nearly equivalent to the mythical 11-40...

    Actually with a 20 tooth 5th (1:1) the gear range is ~38 31 27 23.5 20 16 14 12.......

    Drew
    occasional cyclist

  86. #86
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    Is Sept 2010 still the official release date? I am interested in converting my 2/8 to a 1/11, though I love the Hammerschmidt.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails New Shimano Alfine 11-Speed-knolly-dt-2010-002b.jpg  

    Regional Race Manager, Knolly Bikes
    Washington, Oregon, Montana, Idaho, Wyoming

  87. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by rdhfreethought
    Is Sept 2010 still the official release date?
    There's an "official" release date? I know Shimano showed some 11-speed hubs to a few European cycle journalists - including at least one working model - but I never saw so much as a press release from the company themselves.

    Hey, I could have missed it. Beyond innumerable websites quoting each other, does anybody have a link to anything about this 11-speed hub direct from Shimano?

    JD

  88. #88
    Rohloff
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    Quote Originally Posted by rdhfreethought
    Is Sept 2010 still the official release date?
    I don't think there is an official release date. I think it's more of "We hope hope to have it availible in Europe in September 2010." To me that means Europe might get some in October or November.

  89. #89
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    22-sep-10: Interbike 2010 Expo

  90. #90
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    We're expecting them in October. "Official" release date would probably be Interbike, like othu said.
    Kevin Duffy, Harris Cyclery, West Newton, MA.
    blog.harriscyclery.com

  91. #91
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    Where can I put my name on a list to get one of these bad boys the minute they come out?

    Must have, must have.

  92. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by shirk
    Where can I put my name on a list to get one of these bad boys the minute they come out?
    http://www.shop.18bikes.co.uk/produc...d=m9b0s475p681 , but you have to pay full list price. Hub, shifter,fitting kit and sprocket £ 445 ($ 650).

  93. #93
    Frt Range, CO
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    Universal will have them as soon as QBP has them, %15 discount for orders over $300 too. Late Fall might as well be Spring where I live

  94. #94
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    Madison (UK Shimano distributor) has been taking pre-orders from dealers for a while now.

    Does anyone know what size chainring/sprocket the new Alfine needs to make the gear ratios useful for mountain biking?

  95. #95
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    CyclesportsUK has them listed on their site, but not yet available. About US$470 (with VAT removed) before shipping.

    http://www.cyclesportsuk.co.uk/produ...oducts_id=8738

    Tim

  96. #96
    some know me as mongo
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    does anyone know if there is anyway to make it 130mm compatible?

  97. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by EGF168
    Does anyone know what size chainring/sprocket the new Alfine needs to make the gear ratios useful for mountain biking?
    By my calculations I think you would want a ratio of about 1.3 between front and rear sprockets if you want the lowest gear on the alfine to be similar to the lowest gear on a "normal" 3x9 setup (e.g. 22 front x 34 back).
    That means something like 32 on the front and 24 on the back.
    That is what I'm going to try first anyway

    (note: I am assuming 26 inch wheels here).

  98. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paco Loco
    That means something like 32 on the front and 24 on the back.
    That is what I'm going to try first anyway
    What will the highest gear be with this combination...?

  99. #99
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    I read somewhere online that the ratios for the new 11-speed Alfine are going to be 0.527 for the lowest gear and 2.153 for the highest.
    Now I don't know for sure that it is true and I don't think Shimano have officially released the specification data yet so I suppose those numbers could turn out to be wrong.
    However they seem right to me and I am assuming that they are.

    So, assuming that is correct then using a 32/24 sprocket combination is going to give you a high gear of 2.871 and a low gear of 0.703

    I have been comparing these numbers to the gearing on my "standard" 3x9 setup which has 22/32/44 chainrings and an 11-34 cassette, and it seems to be pretty much equal to the spread I currently get with the middle and granny rings.
    The highest gear I have in the middle ring is 2.909 and the lowest in the granny ring is 0.647

    I guess if you live in a pretty flat area, do a lot of road riding, or are super fit then you might want to go for slightly higher gearing.
    I however am not that fit and ride in Wales a lot so I don't want to lose my low gears!

  100. #100
    prefers the wide stance
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    anyone know what the cable stop situation is on this hub? I'm getting prepped to build up a Ventana and I need to tell the builder whether or not to add rohloff specific cable stops to the frame if i went that route, but I'm leaning towards waiting on this hub. I'm hoping they fit in the normal stops but really have no clue (first IGH).

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