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  1. #1
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    New Shimano Alfine 11-Speed

    Hi,

    in german only, sorry:
    http://www.radfahren.de/news/detaila...gang-nabe.html

    google translate:
    http://translate.google.com/translat...ml&sl=de&tl=en

    - Shimano SG-S700
    - 11Speed
    - 409%
    - September 2010

    Regards
    Otto

  2. #2
    Rohloff
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    Wow! I'm looking forward to that. I've got an Alfine 8 and a Rohloff. The Rohloff has a little too much range. I rarely find myself in the top few gears. The Afline 8 is fine most of the time but a little extra range would be nice. The Alfine 11 sounds just right. I hope they've made the steps between the gears more even.

  3. #3
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    Thanks for the link, that's fantastic news!

  4. #4
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    More (new) details from the german website:


    Price: about 300 - Euro (420$)
    Weight: approx 1600 grams
    Gear ratio: 409%
    Jumps: 2 x 17% and 8 x 13%
    Oil lubrication: 25 milliliters

  5. #5
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    This could be great...I wonder if it'll receive endorsement from Shimano for mountain bike usage...
    baker

  6. #6
    Frt Range, CO
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    I bet the SRAM marketing person in charge of promoting the i-Motion 9 broke down and cried

    Quote Originally Posted by baker
    This could be great...I wonder if it'll receive endorsement from Shimano for mountain bike usage...
    I don't need an endorsement, I just need it to withstand mountain bike usage

  7. #7
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    Will all the shifter options still suck? It is unlikely Jtek will be making a new model any time soon.

  8. #8
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    The oil bath lubrication is exciting news. That, in and of itself, should prove to be a great step forward.
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  9. #9
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    OMG i can't believe shimano is moving a project such as this forward. An affordable version of the Rohloff with TRIGGER SHIFTERS. Now I HAVE to build that FS 29er i've been salivating over. Please post any developments in this direction. I have scanned the IGH forum for something like this for months. PLEASE let this hub enter production.

  10. #10
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  11. #11
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    "Affordable version of the Rohloff" is <i>probably</i> an overstatement, given Shimano's history to date. I hope it'll be as durable as the current Alfine, but for $400, doubt it'll measure up to the Speedhub's legendary reliability.
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  12. #12
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    Ah, this is perfect timing. I'l likely be picking this up for my commuter/bikepacking 29er setup. I've found my nexus 8 to be a little high for slogging up hills with a load, and I'm not really down for lowering the gear ratio below 2/1. Here is to hoping this version is as durable as the alfine 8 and nexus models..

  13. #13
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    Excellent news!!! 25% more range, oil bath lubrication and the same weight. Where do I sign?

    Mark

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speedub.Nate
    "Affordable version of the Rohloff" is <i>probably</i> an overstatement, given Shimano's history to date. I hope it'll be as durable as the current Alfine, but for $400, doubt it'll measure up to the Speedhub's legendary reliability.
    Nate I know what you're saying, but at 1/4 the price if it's even 1/3 as reliable it's a better deal in the end. Even at wholesale the Rohloff is more than I spend on non-consumables in 3 years, so the Shimano could really fill a spot for we cheap a$$es.

  15. #15
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    Oh, I don't disagree. Between my wife and myself, we have 4 Speedhubs, but I also have a Nexus 7, a Sram Spectro 7, an iMotion 9 and now a Nuvinci. Three of the Speedhubs I purchased used (and relatively cheap), without much concern or hesitation. But I'd never feel comfortable buying a use Sram or Shimano hub, unless it was incidental to a bike purchase.

    All hubs have their place and I'm sure this new Shimano will be right up there. But I'll take the Speedhub's gear range and reliability off road at approximately 2x the price (used) vs. a new of the other. At least until the Alfine 11 hits the scene and proves itself reliable.
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  16. #16
    Frt Range, CO
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    I was thinking some day I'd own a Speedhub, if this Alfine 11 turns out as nice as the Alfine 8, I don't think there'll be any reason to own one, esp for 3x the cost.

  17. #17
    trail rat
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    Bikerumor has a good writeup. Looks sweet, lighter, less rolling resistance, increased range. And the shifter looks awesome!
    "The physician heals, Nature makes well" - real fortune cookie

    CCCMB trail work for trail access - SLO, CA

  18. #18
    emtb.pl
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    I currently run an Alfine in a C'dale BadBoy and a Rolo in the Nomad2
    The thing I like most about the Alfine is the silence. It realy makes the BadBoy stealth.
    This year I'll switch the BadBoy for a Mojo and the A11 sounds just perfect as I was a tad worried if th A8 will do. It was just fine in a flatland/winter BadBoy but I plan a bit more for the Mojo as my Nomad will be replaced with something little more FR.
    Last edited by krolik; 02-06-2010 at 02:51 PM.

  19. #19
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    what is included in the weight besides the rear hub? cog? shifter? cables?

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by hellocook

    what is included in the weight besides the rear hub? cog? shifter? cables?
    I would imagine just the hub, since the shifters, cog, cables and installation accessories are usually sold separately.
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  21. #21
    Heads up Flyboy!!
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    Looking forward to its intro to the US. Just spoke to my Shimano Dealer who says he'll look into getting me one sooner then later.

  22. #22
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    Looking forward to the new Alfine 11 more than I can say. Very good news as I was contemplating another A8. I need the build specs so I can get my rim and spokes ready.

  23. #23
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    Here's the first hands-on test I've read of the new hub:

    http://road.cc/content/news/13981-sh...-car-park-test
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  24. #24
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    Dammit, dammit, dammit. . . I had re-purposed my S3X funds for a Alfine 8, but now I'm thinking I may have to hold out for the 11.

  25. #25
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    i have been planning tu use a rohloff, but this alfine 11 looks like a promising alternative. sufficient range for me, less money, better cabling looks to me (as i understand just 1 cable on the drive side, may work with normal cable stops) and most important i can stick to rapidfire i am used to.

    also looks like far less weight. 120g less for the hub, no additional external shifting box (-120g), no axle plate (-35g), just one cable with cable stopper (-100g). probably some extra weight for the shifer (+50g). alltogether close to 1lbs. less weight than rohloff and in combination with a belt drive i should be on par with a regular XTR set up ...

    i assume centerlock disc brakes and normal spline shimano cog like for shimano cassettes. can somebody confirm? also, what is the best frame design for these hubs? i assume i also need a way to tighten the chain (or in my case belt drive)?
    Last edited by hellocook; 02-07-2010 at 11:04 AM.

  26. #26
    Missouri Chubber
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    Double Post sorry

  27. #27
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    Writeup looked promising from road.cc but I wonder just how MTB conditions they tested it in. After all the article is from a road bike mag and smoother more reliable or faster shifting even under load in a parking lot is quite a bit different than having to drop 2 or 3 gears halfway up a rocky hill.

    I am still holding my breath for a review done by a more abusive rider and ultimately I would like to see a true torque limit test like the one done on the alfine 8 on this forum to figure out how low you can push the ratios.

    On the upside the fact that shimano is so sure of there product is a very good indicator and the technical changes they mentioned did seem to be following in the steps of the rohloff which is the model standard in the IGH market. I just hope durability isn't sacrificed for a few grams as I know most users on this forum aren't overly concerned about saving 15-20grams when the tradeoff is possibly breaking a $600 (shipped) component. Hopefully the price stays reasonable as well. I was very happy to see the efforts made to integrate the hub with existing rapidfire shifters as that is the ONLY reason I have held off a rohloff purchase.

  28. #28
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    Very exciting news!

    I've been on a Rohloff for almost 3years and would never go back to derailers on my mt. bike! It's nice to see some more options coming to market. As much of an advocate as I am for the Rohloff, the price is still what it is...HIGH!

    When I last rode derailers, it was with a broken right thumb and trigger shifters. Every down-shift was very uncofortable but I toughed it out since I love to ride. After moving to the Rohloff, I learned to appreciate twist shifters in very short order. Everyone has their preference and I hope Shimano offers twist shift as an option with their new hub.

  29. #29
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    Cook, your weight analysis looks about right. An installed, disc brake-ready QR Speedhub with shifter, OEM2 axle plate & Speedbone is going to hit 2059g (not including brake rotor, cables or chain tensioner). <a href="http://www.booboodog.net/images/speedhub-weight-worksheet.gif">Speedhub weight worksheet</a>

    I believe Shimano normally sells the axle bolts and no-turn washers as separate kit, so they're probably not figured into the weight, but those are relatively minor items.

    One thing I am curious about is how this hub handles torque. (I see something funky when I zoom in on the drive side dropout <a href="http://road.cc/content/image/13969-shimano-alfine-11-sprocket">in this photo</a>.) I've seen pictures of horizontal dropouts that the Speedhub has pried open like pistachio shells due to the insane amount of torque generated in the lower gears. Shimano must be getting close to that danger zone as the gear spread increases, so I wonder if they'll be sticking with their traditional methods of anchoring the hub to the frame, and whether there'll be any implications for frames with vertical dropouts.

    As for the parking lot test vs. off-road, I think it's going to take some long term usage to determine whether this hub is up to the task. Lesser hubs have felt good initially, failing only after a handful of rides were put in. One item in particular to watch out for is that this hub is supposedly a complete redesign from the proven Alfine 8, so dirt-worthy success there isn't a guarantee of the same for the Alfine 11. But I doubt Shimano would take a backwards step in this respect, despite the fact that they're still not officially sanctioning these hubs for off-road use and abuse.

    Yes, things are looking up in the IGH world!
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  30. #30
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    thanks a lot nate!

    i guess i will wait some more weeks to order my custom frame and see what shimano comes up with.

  31. #31
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    Not to be too negative, but on the weight, I wouldn't expect a big savings compared to the Rohloff. I reported in an old post:

    Though Shimano claims 1590 grams, this must be for the bare hub. On a calibrated scale I measured 1847 grams for the whole rear hub assembly including: hub, dust cap, inner chain guard, 20T sprocket w/guard, snap ring, driver cap, cassette joint, cassette joint fixing ring, 1pr no turn washers and 1pr acorn axle nuts. If you go with the trigger shifter, you also have to add 223 grams for: shifter, cable, full length housing and cable fixing bolt.

    Comparing these numbers to those posted by Speedub.Nate and others, the weight between the Speedhub and Alfine looks about the same and the Speedhub can actually be lighter depending on what configuration you run.


    Granted the new shifter will hopefully save a few grams, but we'll see.

    Also, we are seeing conflicting info on the steps between gears. The OP reports 2 x 17% + 8 x 13% and the road.cc report says constant 17-18% but neither of those will give you 409% overall range, so it looks like we'll see in this regard also.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdrds17

    ...we are seeing conflicting info on the steps between gears. The OP reports 2 x 17% + 8 x 13% and the road.cc report says constant 17-18% but neither of those will give you 409% overall range, so it looks like we'll see in this regard also.
    I agree, not adding up. There might be a couple more 17-18% in there, and a few less 13's?

    I found a couple more "hands on" writeups posted today, but neither add anything to the piece posted on road.cc.

    http://www.bikeradar.com/news/articl...hub-gear-24930

    http://www.singletrackworld.com/2010...al-geared-hub/
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  33. #33
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    stars aligning

    ah .... this news just as my Milk Money is being built ; )))

    Not that I'll run a IGH all the time but that fact that the Alfine 11 will offer a wider range is great news!!!!

  34. #34
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    Anyone know about the engagement speed? Quick is good!

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by pureslop

    Anyone know about the engagement speed? Quick is good!
    With those roller clutches they switched to mid-stream on the Alfine 8, isn't it more or less instant engagement?
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  36. #36
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    milk money

    talked to Devin today about the Milkmoney. so which one of ya is gonna give up you hub for next to nothin so I can afford the Lenz.

    Its great to see advancement on the IGH front.


    IGH hubs are the new black!

    this bike w/ the new KH hoops and a DUC36....fat!
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  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speedub.Nate
    With those roller clutches they switched to mid-stream on the Alfine 8, isn't it more or less instant engagement?
    Seems to be instant engagement according to this:
    http://road.cc/content/news/13981-sh...-car-park-test

    Edit: Just saw Speedhubnate already posted the same link.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by lil hillbilly

    talked to Devin today about the Milkmoney...
    Gah! IGH: the single best arguement for Devin's BB-centric pivot designs!

    You know who else? Haro! Haro needs to get a jump on this and begin building their VLS suspension with sliding dropouts. The could make a lot of gear hubbers and singlespeeders very happy.

    <img src="http://www.booboodog.net/images/haro-suspension.gif">
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  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by lil hillbilly
    talked to Devin today about the Milkmoney. so which one of ya is gonna give up you hub for next to nothin so I can afford the Lenz.

    Its great to see advancement on the IGH front.


    IGH hubs are the new black!

    this bike w/ the new KH hoops and a DUC36....fat!

    Hey!!!

    Thats what mine is going to look like too!!!! Except with a Reba maxle, XTR crank, TI luvs and a Brooks Swift ..... other than that identical

  40. #40
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    now I hate you

    sounds like its gonna have an IGH
    http://queencitycycles.com home of the shiftless bastards

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by lil hillbilly
    sounds like its gonna have an IGH
    Yeah ... eventually. The plan is to build it up SS first. Got a new King SS 36H Flow rear being built When the bike fund recovers and the Alfine 11 comes out I'll build up a Alfine Flow rear wheel!!!! Should be sweet. Gears with none of the chain slapping derailleur out of alignment nonsense!!!!!!!

    Now I just need the MM ... Patience ...... Patience

  42. #42
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    I'll take my Rohloff any day over my (former) Alfine 501 & current Nexus red-band.

    I've been using the Nexus red-band exclusively until recently & it just doesn't compare to the Rohloff. Which I bought used. Sure, the Rohloff is more expensive but I bought mine used already built-up into a wheel with some extra goodies at a great price. It was still more than twice the price of just a Alfine/Nexus red-band hub but as far as I'm concerned it's more than worth the price premium.

    And I basically prefer having one do-it-all bike that I ride on-road & on-trail & definitely need the range of the Rohloff to do both comfortably. Even here in flatland Florida.

    I suppose I could have two bikes, one with an Alfine set up for road use & the other with an Alfine set up for trail use but I prefer just having one bike that does it all. I don't do group rides on-road so have no need to keep up with anyone on-road & on-trail that's a non-issue.

    Definitely prefer the shifting of the Rohloff over the Alfine/Nexus. The Alfine/Nexus has an occasional irritating lag before shifting sometimes. It's actually more than irritating on-trail as it sometimes means working unnecessarily harder trying to maintain speed. Or completely impossible depending on the section of trail. Definitely in marked contrast to a derailleur system. Even an inexpensive one. Difference was obvious to me when I went back to a derailleur equipped bike recently.

    I just bought a pair of new (used) 26er folding bikes that I wasn't sure I'd like so didn't bother with switching anything in the drive trains out. Both of the bikes are identically equipped with an Alivio level group & Grip Shift & are 'only' 21 speeds. Even with this set up I was able to ride faster than I had been able to using my Nexus red-band. Tried to make the comparison a bit more equal by only using the big chain ring so I was basically riding a 7 speed & even so I was still able to ride faster on-trail. The bike(s) isn't(aren't) exactly new either, dating back to '96. And I was slightly handicapped by the slacker steering on the bikes. From what I remember, the HT angle is 69*. But, even so, once I made the adjustment, I was still faster.

    I've gone back to 26ers because they make a more practical travel bike. My Rohloff is currently laced to a 29er wheel so I haven't had a chance to ride it much lately.

    I've been trying to find another inexpensive used Rohloff hub that I can build up into a 26er wheel but so far haven't had any luck but with the Alfine 11 on the horizon I might just give it a shot instead. The price is definitely right. But if it shifts in the same way as the current Alfine/Nexus red-band I'll definitely take a pass & stick with a Rohloff. Even though it is more expensive.

  43. #43
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    I'm pretty excited about this hub,

    I've got a friend at Shimano that rode it to lunch. He said it shifted like XTR.

    One interesting thing, it uses helical gears. These would theoretically handle more torque, run quiter, and mesh more smoothly. This comes at the price of efficiency, but the oil bath replacing grease might cancel that out. I'm thinking this hub might be even more suitable to offroad use than the 8sp.

    Another interesting bit, the shifting is opposite of existing nexus/alfine hubs. This should mean less hesitation to shift into lower gears. That's my only complaint about my 8sp.

  44. #44
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    Forgot to ask, anyone know if it's going to be available in a QR version? That's another advantage (AFAIC) of the Rohloff. I do like my QR.

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by maxtheheathen
    One interesting thing, it uses helical gears. These would theoretically handle more torque, run quiter, and mesh more smoothly. This comes at the price of efficiency, but the oil bath replacing grease might cancel that out.
    Interesting that they're going that direction with the gears. One thing to remember about efficiency. Deraileured bikes are only more efficient when it's all clean and new. IGH have about 92% efficient and deraileurs about 96%. The problem is when your gears get muddy you loose efficiency really quickly and the figures can drop down into the 80s. With IGH gearing you won't loose too much, but you will loose some.

    All this info comes from studies done long ago (early '90s or so), but shouldn't have changed that much. I would like to see similar studies done with the newer modern parts and IGHs. Alas the efficiency thing is the buggaboo causing companies not to adopt IGH bikes throughout their lines.

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    I don't buy the argument that IGHs are more efficient than derailleur systems in poor riding conditions.

    When I was racing ATBs, I raced in some hellaciously muddy conditions & never noticed any drop in efficiency with my derailleur equipped bikes.

    Not even in clay mud mixed with pine needles which in the process of drying basically becomes something like adobe if you're unfortunate enough to start a race when it's wet but then continue long enough for conditions to dry up. Which I did. The only trouble I had was with shifting the front derailleur because of the accumulation of pine needles & clay in that area which wouldn't allow the front derailleur to return to the smaller chain rings. But that's the only race that's ever happened to me. There were a lot of DNFs in that race though. Psychological for the most part.

    I've had other races in which competitors wore thru a fresh set of XTR v-pads in one ~2 hr race. My old XTR center pull pads did just fine . But no issues with my derailleur equipped bike. Or, far as I know, anyone else's derailleur equipped bike.

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sometimes
    I don't buy the argument that IGHs are more efficient than derailleur systems in poor riding conditions.
    You don't have to believe anything you don't want to, but there have been a lot of studies done in Europe on such things. The best article I remember was in the old Bike Culture magazine I believe. If I remember correctly there is also information on this stuff in the Bicycling Science book and the old Bike Tech periodical.

    From personal experience if you can't tell the difference between a clean and dirty drive train, your drivetrain isn't getting very dirty. That or you're too busy worrying about other things to notice during a race.

  48. #48
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    I'm somewhat with you in that I don't think traditional derailleur efficiency falls off that much in real world muck. That said, I think the small amount of inefficiency of an IGH is mitigated by extraordinary quick, reliable shifting of an IGH.

    I had the opportunity to switch bikes back and forth on the same trail, on the same day, with same friend who is similarly skilled and fit. We did this on multiple rides on twisty, hilly singletrack. One bike was a derailled 26er (Kona Bear w/ XT). The other was a Rohloffed 29er (GF HiFi 29). We both agreed that we were working harder to keep up on the derailled 26er and more relaxed and fresh on the Rohloffed 29er. Both bikes were FS bikes with 4" of travel front and back. While we both felt that the bigger, more stable wheels on the 29er helped, timed lapse by others suggest that wheel size is insignificant. That leaves me feeling as though the IGH was at least as effient if not more so in the real world.

    I'd like to do a better comparison by renting a derailed GF HiFi29.

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by themanmonkey
    ...SNIP...
    From personal experience if you can't tell the difference between a clean and dirty drive train, your drivetrain isn't getting very dirty. That or you're too busy worrying about other things to notice during a race.
    I'm still not buying it. At least from my personal experience.

    That's just it, the drivetrain simply never gets dirty enough for there to be a significant (noticeable) fall-off in efficiency. At least the drivetrains on my bikes didn't. Despite conditions that the average rider wouldn't be riding under on-trail. There aren't any riders that I know of that will voluntarily elect to ride during rain on-trail. Let alone in clay.

    There are just two extra toothed pulleys compared to a IGH system so I just don't see how it's possible for the efficiency to be that much less under poor conditions. Short of purposely packing the rear derailleur & cogs with mud/debris.

  50. #50
    mtbr member
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    "Extraordinary quick, reliable shifting of an IGH"?

    H'mm.

    Not AFAIC. At least not yet.

    Definitely not true of the Alfine/Nexus red-band. Perhaps I need more break in time but I think the shifting sucks compared to a properly tuned derailleur system. At least so far. I'm willing to give it more time. And I will. Probably at least a year before I decide yay or nay. Or until I can replace it with the Alfine 11.

    As for the Rohloff. Definitely better, IMO, than the Alfine/Nexus red-band in terms of shifting but my new (used) Rohloff might be slightly broken in. Or completely broken in. I don't know the exact mileage on it. But I was told less than 1K miles when I bought it & I've only put ~200 miles on it so far. And that's it for now because it's on a 29er rim & I'm currently riding a 26er with the Nexus red-band. With the price, even used, I'm inclined to really, really want it to work for me.

    Unlike the Alfine which I had no qualms passing on to a relative. And which may be the same fate of the Nexus red-band.

    Actually will be the same fate, if I can get my hands on an Alfine 11.

    Yeah, I've got the IGH fever. At least for the time being.

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