Had the first really warm couple of days since fall & winter and the slip / skip in 4,6,7,11,13, &14 reappeared. Today was a cool day and there was no slip. Headed back to the man-cave and put the bike in the stand and proceeded to heat the hub with a heat gun. Went back out for a ride and lo and behold, the slip returned. As the hub cooled down, the slip went away. First it faded from the upper gears, then the lower gears.
The last couple of warm days are probably some of the warmest the hub has seen since it came back from being repaired (Neil from Cycle Monkey put new guts in the hub last September) for this issue last year. It sure looks to me to be temperature related. It is happy as long as it is cool.
At this point I haven't really decided what do other than probably contact Neil and see what he thinks. Anyway I just wanted to report in.
Please keep us updated -- I'm curious what the prognosis is. I know these hubs have suffered through some killer heat an various cross-continental tours they've been subjected to, so find it baffling that two sets of innards you've ended up with are displaying this same problem. I wonder, could it somehow be related to a defect in the shell? Or something specific to the way it's being mounted in your frame? So random...
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I can assure you, when my Rohloff, which had 700 documented miles on it, and started slipping at 450 miles, had shifting problems and slipping in 3rd and 4th gears, when I sent it to Rohloff, I got a nice fat bill for the service, plus shipping. It was a defective axle, the subcontractor grinding the shifting flats on the axle had quality control problems. I don't remember if it was Thomas or Neil that serviced it, but I was sent an email from Neil, stating that the hub he pulled out looked brand spanking new, it was nowhere near broken in or smooth in the lower gears.
Originally Posted by estutjaweh
That was enough to convince me to sell mine off. It was a very expensive experiment, with mine slipping at a very critical switchback with exposure and severe, near fatal penalty for failure. Slipping sent me over the bars, crashing, while standing and mashing. Not acceptable. I could never trust the hub after that moment.
What was installed was a used, remanufactured set of guts. Not new, which is what I bought, and was removed, a near new hub and priced accordingly.
Last edited by Boyonadyke; 03-31-2011 at 09:13 PM.
Luh and Moose: Glad to hear you are both sorted. That sucks that they didn't give you any helpful information on the issue they repaired. Were either of your hubs temperature-sensitive before being repaired? I notice that your slipping gear #s are similar to Uncle Robins.
Uncle Robin, your problem is a real head-scratcher...... The only thing that would seem to make sense is an oil viscosity issue. I lean towards dismissing parts expansion since my experience is that Rohloffs are tight, but they aren't THAT tight.
Can you post a description or picture of your bike and hub setup? What kind of heat application did you use, and about how hot did you get it to repeat the symptoms? And I think I asked this before, but what riding temperatures make a good hub or a slipping hub?
Assuming I don't have to torch the stickers off my hub, I'd be willing to replicate your test on my hub and compare results.
Originally Posted by estutjaweh
Rohloff hubs are too fragile and too sensitive to too many variables. Too cold, thin the gear oil, too hot, it slips in gear, too salty, it corrodes, too small a front ring gear, it stresses the gear box, too loose an axle tolerance and it slips out of gear explosively. Too, too, too.... as in too many excuses, too expensive to work on, by factory personnel only, no spare parts available, and too many failures. Then there is another example of the whole unit having to be sent back to Germany to get it corrected. This is typical of German products during the last 30 years, including new VW TDI Jetta's and Golf's from 2009 on, having catastrophic High pressure fuel pump failures made by Bosch, where VW made a bean counter decision to go cheap with the pump from Bosch, and it destroys/grenades the whole fuel system and everything down stream in the fuel lines and fuel tanks.
German engineers design product with no consideration for service requirements at all, more as an after thought. Try adding gear oil through the speedometer sensor fitting, after removing the speedo sensor, because there is no filler hole on top.
Last edited by Boyonadyke; 05-01-2011 at 12:12 AM.
Originally Posted by suba
You should see the VW TDI's I've picked up, for under what you paid for your wheel, and still got another 50,000 miles out of them, at 50 + MPG. I can work on anything, as long as there are spare parts available without paying stupid money for the parts. Boat motors, transmissions, clutches, rebuilt injector pumps myself, turbo diesel motors, turbochargers too.
Try getting spare parts here in the USA for a Rohloff. They will tell you that is not an option.
When Neil emails me that the gearbox pulled out of my hub looks brand spanking new, and the previous owner could count the number of trips to Whistler on that hub, and the miles per day, I'd say I knew quite well, that I'd bought a very new, very limited use hub, with a known mileage. It was one of those turkeys that Rohloff let get out, because of inadequate quality control on their end, accepting axle parts from a vendor the sub contracted with, and not measuring and QC'ing the parts the vendor supplied.
I am beginning to think that German standards consider a 2 to 3% failure rate quite acceptable, well within their normal standards. I see this a lot on german car companies too.
I wish to point out the German business mindset, the arrogance of German engineers, and how they do business.
Originally Posted by suba
Try buying a 25 to $50k german Audi or VW with a Bosch High Pressure Fuel pump that fails, spreads shrapnel throughout the whole fuel system, and costs $7,000 to $16,000 to replace the whole fuel system, then you blame all the problems on customers misfueling. Let this go on from April 2008, note that it is still going on with current 2011 production, that NHSTA has gotten involved, that BMW has done the same sh*t until they got called on by ABC Nighlty News it and issued a recall, finally.
The buck finally stops when a class action lawsuit was filed. This is exactly how German companies act.
Start around page 318 for the lawsuit being filed, and then read each case, and how VW tries to blame some for misuse or misfueling. This is a problem on Audi Q7 TDI's , A3 TDI's, and VW 3.0 TDI Touaregs, as well as Jetta, Golf, and Sportwagens.
The situation is the same, deny, deny, deny, until your azz ends up in court. Running a steel piston in an Aluminum bore to pressurize fuel to 28,000 psi in a common rail is so retarded, it's designed failure. That the pump grenades and wipes out everything down stream, rail, injectors, fuel tank, fuel lines, 3 fuel pumps and it costs 1/3 to 1/2 what the car is worth in 2 or 3 years is pathetic, what will happen when the car is 6 or 10 years old and it's out of warranty and grenades again. The repair costs more than the car is worth. Diesels are designed to go 300,000 miles, minimum, 400,000 if very well maintained, by the book. It has happened, folks have lost 2 pumps in under 60,000 miles.
It's easy for you to sit there in denial, being that your Rohloff hasn't failed yet. It's another when you have the experience of yours having failed and you go over the bars on a steep narrow single track when it misses a shift while standing and mashing on a trail with severe penalty for failure. I don't mind being in the minority and educating folks in the potential pitfalls of owning a Rohloff. You can not discount my personal experience, because it is a fact, as was brontotx's issue. He also got a bum hub back from Rohloff too, trying to get it fixed.
So keep on sweeping it under the rug, and deny, deny, deny. Some us out there know the facts and have real world experience with the failures of Rohloff Hubs. Most will probably get a perfectly good Rohloff hub, but some will not, and those some should also be heard here on MTBR.
Last edited by Boyonadyke; 05-07-2011 at 09:21 AM.
Glad you pointed that thread out. Personally I would have been too embarrassed to do that.
Originally Posted by RandyBoy
It was hard getting through all you're rants but I make it. I'm guessing you have good healthcare as you'll need it when you have a stroke or heart attack. Heck, stress can even cause cancer. Hope nothing runs in your family.
Why stop now eh ? Keep the bashing and ranting going. Why not start a new thread about what a piece of crap Rohloff's are, and they are ALL doomed to fail soon if not sooner. Go ahead, make my day
Loved my AUDI Allroad, hands down the best car Ive ever owned out of many.
Just changed my oil on my flawless running Rohloff, ah life is good.
You got a bill because you bought that hub used off Ebay which voids the warranty. If you had bought it new you wouldn't have been charged. It was your fault you bought a broken hub.
Originally Posted by RandyBoy
If you want to save $$ buying used you have to accept the risks. If not buy new and get the warranty protection.
The result would be the same if you bought a $2K computer used from Ebay or another product. Most warranties are not transferable to a 2nd owner.
Last edited by vikb; 05-09-2011 at 08:27 AM.
There is no product sold today that does not have some failures. None.
Originally Posted by mbloes
So the question is how much more would you pay to reduce the likelihood of a failure? Rohloff has done the cost/benefit analysis and settled on what they consider reasonable. Thorn, who sells a lot of Rohloffs, quotes a failure rate of ~1%.
You can certainly reduce the rate further, but it will add to the cost of the hub. Either through more expensive parts sourcing & assembly procedures or extensive QC of the hubs like putting each one on a machine and simulating 5K of riding.
Would you pay an extra $300 go from 1% failure rate to 0.5% or 0.25%?
This is a common decision any manufacturer has to make. Most settle on a point of diminishing returns where adding cost doesn't result in a great reduction of risk/defects. They use the warranty as a mechanism to sort out the 1% of defects that get out of the factory.
Personally I wouldn't want to see a significant increase the cost of Rohloff to make an unlikely problem a bit more unlikely.
Apologies for the grave dig, but there is a lot of good info in this thread.
My newly acquried, old Rohloff hub is slipping in every gear under any real load.
I've fiddled with the cable tension, tried the mallet on the axle ends and checked that the two springs are in place. I'm left with checking the alignment of the two holes on the cable drum and replacing the cables as the last two things I can think to check.
If you're still having this problem, feel free to give us a call at (510) 868-1777 to discuss solutions.
Originally Posted by crank1979
Thanks mate. The shop has it now as it was working when it went in to have the wheels rebuilt. Lucky I'm a patient man as it's been there for 9 weeks, minus the one day I had it to find the gears slipping!
Originally Posted by CycleMonkey
Sometimes it's the simple things, like a worn cog. I took it for it's first ride yesterday and didn't have any slipping.
It's a different feeling to the Pinion gearbox on my Nicolai.
Great. Glad you got it resolved. Happy trails.
Originally Posted by crank1979