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  1. #51
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    It's Back

    Had the first really warm couple of days since fall & winter and the slip / skip in 4,6,7,11,13, &14 reappeared. Today was a cool day and there was no slip. Headed back to the man-cave and put the bike in the stand and proceeded to heat the hub with a heat gun. Went back out for a ride and lo and behold, the slip returned. As the hub cooled down, the slip went away. First it faded from the upper gears, then the lower gears.

    The last couple of warm days are probably some of the warmest the hub has seen since it came back from being repaired (Neil from Cycle Monkey put new guts in the hub last September) for this issue last year. It sure looks to me to be temperature related. It is happy as long as it is cool.

    At this point I haven't really decided what do other than probably contact Neil and see what he thinks. Anyway I just wanted to report in.

    UR

  2. #52
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    Please keep us updated -- I'm curious what the prognosis is. I know these hubs have suffered through some killer heat an various cross-continental tours they've been subjected to, so find it baffling that two sets of innards you've ended up with are displaying this same problem. I wonder, could it somehow be related to a defect in the shell? Or something specific to the way it's being mounted in your frame? So random...
    speedub.nate
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  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by estutjaweh
    What I'd really like to know is:

    If problems with a hub are detailled and discussed here in a forum instead of with a mechanic at the bike shop, or via an Email with the manufacturer, then you cant really blame Rohloff as they have no knowledge of the issue at this point. A manufacturer can only correct a mistake once they are aware it exists and generally through all documentation, its seems as if Rohloff find solutions and correct all issues for no more than the postage cost 'to them'....and this even when the hub is waaaay out of warranty.
    I can assure you, when my Rohloff, which had 700 documented miles on it, and started slipping at 450 miles, had shifting problems and slipping in 3rd and 4th gears, when I sent it to Rohloff, I got a nice fat bill for the service, plus shipping. It was a defective axle, the subcontractor grinding the shifting flats on the axle had quality control problems. I don't remember if it was Thomas or Neil that serviced it, but I was sent an email from Neil, stating that the hub he pulled out looked brand spanking new, it was nowhere near broken in or smooth in the lower gears.

    That was enough to convince me to sell mine off. It was a very expensive experiment, with mine slipping at a very critical switchback with exposure and severe, near fatal penalty for failure. Slipping sent me over the bars, crashing, while standing and mashing. Not acceptable. I could never trust the hub after that moment.
    What was installed was a used, remanufactured set of guts. Not new, which is what I bought, and was removed, a near new hub and priced accordingly.
    Last edited by Boyonadyke; 03-31-2011 at 09:13 PM.

  4. #54
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    Luh and Moose: Glad to hear you are both sorted. That sucks that they didn't give you any helpful information on the issue they repaired. Were either of your hubs temperature-sensitive before being repaired? I notice that your slipping gear #s are similar to Uncle Robins.

    Uncle Robin, your problem is a real head-scratcher...... The only thing that would seem to make sense is an oil viscosity issue. I lean towards dismissing parts expansion since my experience is that Rohloffs are tight, but they aren't THAT tight.

    Can you post a description or picture of your bike and hub setup? What kind of heat application did you use, and about how hot did you get it to repeat the symptoms? And I think I asked this before, but what riding temperatures make a good hub or a slipping hub?

    Assuming I don't have to torch the stickers off my hub, I'd be willing to replicate your test on my hub and compare results.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by estutjaweh
    If problems with a hub are detailled and discussed here in a forum instead of with a mechanic at the bike shop, or via an Email with the manufacturer, then you cant really blame Rohloff as they have no knowledge of the issue at this point. A manufacturer can only correct a mistake once they are aware it exists and generally through all documentation, its seems as if Rohloff find solutions and correct all issues for no more than the postage cost 'to them'....and this even when the hub is waaaay out of warranty.

    Granted there are problems, but nothing is perfect and this sort of service is second to none in any industry, yet alone a low profit sector such as the bike industry.

    Rohloff hubs are too fragile and too sensitive to too many variables. Too cold, thin the gear oil, too hot, it slips in gear, too salty, it corrodes, too small a front ring gear, it stresses the gear box, too loose an axle tolerance and it slips out of gear explosively. Too, too, too.... as in too many excuses, too expensive to work on, by factory personnel only, no spare parts available, and too many failures. Then there is another example of the whole unit having to be sent back to Germany to get it corrected. This is typical of German products during the last 30 years, including new VW TDI Jetta's and Golf's from 2009 on, having catastrophic High pressure fuel pump failures made by Bosch, where VW made a bean counter decision to go cheap with the pump from Bosch, and it destroys/grenades the whole fuel system and everything down stream in the fuel lines and fuel tanks.

    German engineers design product with no consideration for service requirements at all, more as an after thought. Try adding gear oil through the speedometer sensor fitting, after removing the speedo sensor, because there is no filler hole on top.
    Last edited by Boyonadyke; 05-01-2011 at 12:12 AM.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by suba
    You're an exception around here, in that you know a great deal about Rohloff, and you're knowledgable enough to buy used. Preowned is great as long as someone know's what their getting into, and doesn't cry when things don't go their way. You do the former, but not the latter.

    On the other hand, I had no experience with Rohloff, and will only have one in my lifetime. I couldn't take a chance buying used. It was tough forking out over $2000 for a laced hub and wheel on something I've never seen, but it paid off for me. It was a good move that keeps on giving long after the pain of spending the money was over.

    There really are very few people here who bash Rohloff. I figure it's either a personal grudge, or some people bash them and have never even seen one ( go figure that ) Not sure how I got so involved in this thread. It's an honest thread with a lot of good information. Anyway, no worries here. I've learned a lot here about how to care for my hub, and have learned what potential problems might arise in the future, and how to possibly mitigate those issues.

    It's all good...and hope everyone enjoy your hubs.


    You should see the VW TDI's I've picked up, for under what you paid for your wheel, and still got another 50,000 miles out of them, at 50 + MPG. I can work on anything, as long as there are spare parts available without paying stupid money for the parts. Boat motors, transmissions, clutches, rebuilt injector pumps myself, turbo diesel motors, turbochargers too.

    Try getting spare parts here in the USA for a Rohloff. They will tell you that is not an option.

    When Neil emails me that the gearbox pulled out of my hub looks brand spanking new, and the previous owner could count the number of trips to Whistler on that hub, and the miles per day, I'd say I knew quite well, that I'd bought a very new, very limited use hub, with a known mileage. It was one of those turkeys that Rohloff let get out, because of inadequate quality control on their end, accepting axle parts from a vendor the sub contracted with, and not measuring and QC'ing the parts the vendor supplied.

    I am beginning to think that German standards consider a 2 to 3% failure rate quite acceptable, well within their normal standards. I see this a lot on german car companies too.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandyBoy
    You should see the VW TDI's I've picked up, for under what you paid for your wheel, and still got another 50,000 miles out of them, at 50 + MPG. I can work on anything, as long as there are spare parts available without paying stupid money for the parts. Boat motors, transmissions, clutches, rebuilt injector pumps myself, turbo diesel motors, turbochargers too.

    Try getting spare parts here in the USA for a Rohloff. They will tell you that is not an option.

    When Neil emails me that the gearbox pulled out of my hub looks brand spanking new, and the previous owner could count the number of trips to Whistler on that hub, and the miles per day, I'd say I knew quite well, that I'd bought a very new, very limited use hub, with a known mileage. It was one of those turkeys that Rohloff let get out, because of inadequate quality control on their end, accepting axle parts from a vendor the sub contracted with, and not measuring and QC'ing the parts the vendor supplied.

    I am beginning to think that German standards consider a 2 to 3% failure rate quite acceptable, well within their normal standards. I see this a lot on german car companies too.
    Give it a rest. No matter how many times you tell your story of woe, my Rohloff somehow manages to work flawlessly Your problem is you took a chance buying a used hub and lost. That's what karma does sometimes. Why don't you try sucking it up, and consider it a learning experience instead of continually spreading bad vibes. You bought a used hub on ebay. It turned out to be a bad move. Move on man. Grow up, and be thankful for all the blessing that you do have in your life

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by suba
    Give it a rest. No matter how many times you tell your story of woe, my Rohloff somehow manages to work flawlessly Your problem is you took a chance buying a used hub and lost. That's what karma does sometimes. Why don't you try sucking it up, and consider it a learning experience instead of continually spreading bad vibes. You bought a used hub on ebay. It turned out to be a bad move. Move on man. Grow up, and be thankful for all the blessing that you do have in your life
    I wish to point out the German business mindset, the arrogance of German engineers, and how they do business.

    Try buying a 25 to $50k german Audi or VW with a Bosch High Pressure Fuel pump that fails, spreads shrapnel throughout the whole fuel system, and costs $7,000 to $16,000 to replace the whole fuel system, then you blame all the problems on customers misfueling. Let this go on from April 2008, note that it is still going on with current 2011 production, that NHSTA has gotten involved, that BMW has done the same sh*t until they got called on by ABC Nighlty News it and issued a recall, finally.

    The buck finally stops when a class action lawsuit was filed. This is exactly how German companies act.

    http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/acms/do...003-45604P.pdf

    Start around page 318 for the lawsuit being filed, and then read each case, and how VW tries to blame some for misuse or misfueling. This is a problem on Audi Q7 TDI's , A3 TDI's, and VW 3.0 TDI Touaregs, as well as Jetta, Golf, and Sportwagens.

    The situation is the same, deny, deny, deny, until your azz ends up in court. Running a steel piston in an Aluminum bore to pressurize fuel to 28,000 psi in a common rail is so retarded, it's designed failure. That the pump grenades and wipes out everything down stream, rail, injectors, fuel tank, fuel lines, 3 fuel pumps and it costs 1/3 to 1/2 what the car is worth in 2 or 3 years is pathetic, what will happen when the car is 6 or 10 years old and it's out of warranty and grenades again. The repair costs more than the car is worth. Diesels are designed to go 300,000 miles, minimum, 400,000 if very well maintained, by the book. It has happened, folks have lost 2 pumps in under 60,000 miles.


    It's easy for you to sit there in denial, being that your Rohloff hasn't failed yet. It's another when you have the experience of yours having failed and you go over the bars on a steep narrow single track when it misses a shift while standing and mashing on a trail with severe penalty for failure. I don't mind being in the minority and educating folks in the potential pitfalls of owning a Rohloff. You can not discount my personal experience, because it is a fact, as was brontotx's issue. He also got a bum hub back from Rohloff too, trying to get it fixed.

    http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.ph...49482#poststop

    So keep on sweeping it under the rug, and deny, deny, deny. Some us out there know the facts and have real world experience with the failures of Rohloff Hubs. Most will probably get a perfectly good Rohloff hub, but some will not, and those some should also be heard here on MTBR.
    Last edited by Boyonadyke; 05-07-2011 at 09:21 AM.

  9. #59
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    Glad you pointed that thread out. Personally I would have been too embarrassed to do that.
    It was hard getting through all you're rants but I make it. I'm guessing you have good healthcare as you'll need it when you have a stroke or heart attack. Heck, stress can even cause cancer. Hope nothing runs in your family.

    Why stop now eh ? Keep the bashing and ranting going. Why not start a new thread about what a piece of crap Rohloff's are, and they are ALL doomed to fail soon if not sooner. Go ahead, make my day

  10. #60
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    Loved my AUDI Allroad, hands down the best car Ive ever owned out of many.

    Just changed my oil on my flawless running Rohloff, ah life is good.

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandyBoy
    I can assure you, when my Rohloff, which had 700 documented miles on it, and started slipping at 450 miles, had shifting problems and slipping in 3rd and 4th gears, when I sent it to Rohloff, I got a nice fat bill for the service, plus shipping.
    You got a bill because you bought that hub used off Ebay which voids the warranty. If you had bought it new you wouldn't have been charged. It was your fault you bought a broken hub.

    If you want to save $$ buying used you have to accept the risks. If not buy new and get the warranty protection.

    The result would be the same if you bought a $2K computer used from Ebay or another product. Most warranties are not transferable to a 2nd owner.
    Last edited by vikb; 05-09-2011 at 08:27 AM.
    Safe riding,

    Vik
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  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbloes
    Bottom line, this is a known shortcoming of the hub experienced by enough owners to warrant serious consideration by Rohloff. I think it is shameful for Rohloff not to address this when it is so well documented. And I don't think your basic consumer should have to jump through the mechanical hoops documented above to get his hub working properly.

    Ancecdotally, I have had the same problems through two internal sets: freewheeling, slipping out of gear, not fully engaged. I love my hub and have made an uneasy peace with it. But I would still like the complete peace of mind that comes with a fully engineered product, free from the current uneasiness that resides in the back of my head every time I go for a ride.
    There is no product sold today that does not have some failures. None.

    So the question is how much more would you pay to reduce the likelihood of a failure? Rohloff has done the cost/benefit analysis and settled on what they consider reasonable. Thorn, who sells a lot of Rohloffs, quotes a failure rate of ~1%.

    You can certainly reduce the rate further, but it will add to the cost of the hub. Either through more expensive parts sourcing & assembly procedures or extensive QC of the hubs like putting each one on a machine and simulating 5K of riding.

    Would you pay an extra $300 go from 1% failure rate to 0.5% or 0.25%?

    This is a common decision any manufacturer has to make. Most settle on a point of diminishing returns where adding cost doesn't result in a great reduction of risk/defects. They use the warranty as a mechanism to sort out the 1% of defects that get out of the factory.

    Personally I wouldn't want to see a significant increase the cost of Rohloff to make an unlikely problem a bit more unlikely.
    Safe riding,

    Vik
    www.vikapproved.com

  13. #63
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    Apologies for the grave dig, but there is a lot of good info in this thread.

    My newly acquried, old Rohloff hub is slipping in every gear under any real load.

    I've fiddled with the cable tension, tried the mallet on the axle ends and checked that the two springs are in place. I'm left with checking the alignment of the two holes on the cable drum and replacing the cables as the last two things I can think to check.

    Any ideas?

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by crank1979 View Post
    Apologies for the grave dig, but there is a lot of good info in this thread.

    My newly acquried, old Rohloff hub is slipping in every gear under any real load.

    I've fiddled with the cable tension, tried the mallet on the axle ends and checked that the two springs are in place. I'm left with checking the alignment of the two holes on the cable drum and replacing the cables as the last two things I can think to check.

    Any ideas?
    If you're still having this problem, feel free to give us a call at (510) 868-1777 to discuss solutions.
    www.CycleMonkey.com
    Rohloff & Schlumpf gearing. Custom wheels. Suspension service.

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by CycleMonkey View Post
    If you're still having this problem, feel free to give us a call at (510) 868-1777 to discuss solutions.
    Thanks mate. The shop has it now as it was working when it went in to have the wheels rebuilt. Lucky I'm a patient man as it's been there for 9 weeks, minus the one day I had it to find the gears slipping!

  16. #66
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    Sometimes it's the simple things, like a worn cog. I took it for it's first ride yesterday and didn't have any slipping.

    It's a different feeling to the Pinion gearbox on my Nicolai.

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by crank1979 View Post
    Sometimes it's the simple things, like a worn cog. I took it for it's first ride yesterday and didn't have any slipping.

    It's a different feeling to the Pinion gearbox on my Nicolai.
    Great. Glad you got it resolved. Happy trails.
    www.CycleMonkey.com
    Rohloff & Schlumpf gearing. Custom wheels. Suspension service.

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