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  1. #1
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    Who is Butch Otter?

    And why does he want to kill all the wolves in Idaho? I was thinking about taking a trip up there to ride this summer...not sure if I want to support a state with this type of attitude.

    Enlightened folks fill me in.

  2. #2
    TERVOR THE GREAT
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    That is not the state's attitude, that's Butch Otter's attitude.

    Oh, just in case the gestapo reads this:
    Mountain Bike
    Last edited by DelTaco; 01-26-2007 at 04:40 PM.
    I am become death, the destroyer of worlds.

  3. #3
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    otter...wolf...you make the connection
    I just don't understand my wife....she thinks its nuts to ride when the temperature is in the 20's....go figure

  4. #4
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    Wild dogs are scary

    Quote Originally Posted by ragnarok29er
    And why does he want to kill all the wolves in Idaho? I was thinking about taking a trip up there to ride this summer...not sure if I want to support a state with this type of attitude.

    Enlightened folks fill me in.
    Wolves have been successfully reintroduced - They have no natural predators except for us two wheeled humans (bike content added to keep moderators happy), so now the humans get to hunt them down.

  5. #5
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    Extremely conservative

    Quote Originally Posted by ragnarok29er
    And why does he want to kill all the wolves in Idaho? I was thinking about taking a trip up there to ride this summer...not sure if I want to support a state with this type of attitude.

    Enlightened folks fill me in.
    He's a very conservative republican with a pro hunting agenda. Also, the number of wolves he proposes to leave (I think it's 200) is lower than the safety threshold the govenment wants

  6. #6
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    yay! bike content.

    it is a valid opinion/post. ragnarok29er doesn't want to bike in a state which he views supports an action which he is opposed too. And yes, it has bike-related content. Personally, I'd only hunt to eat (if I could hunt at all), and I met a guy who does hunt only to get meat (ala chukar, venision, pheasant). He actually won't eat meat or fish he doesn't catch or kill.
    ...building wherever they'll let me...

  7. #7
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    Butch Otter got a DUI after winning a "Mister Tight Buns" contest at a local watering hole. He didn't get those buns from riding a bike (Just needed some MTB context there).

    His biggest concern about the wolves is that when you are camping and you step out of your Winnebago in the morning (after drinking your Folgers and watching Good Morning America), there will be a circle of rabid drooling carnivores who have tired of decimating the elk and cattle population and are just jonesing to eat some tastey humanses.

    To the OP: Are you saying that Idaho will lose MTB tourism income because our guv wants to kill the wolves?

    I for one am not exactly proud of our... oh nevermind.
    Nobody cares what kind of bike you ride.

  8. #8
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    My understanding is ...

    that the state's elk hunters believe that the formerly-federally-protected wolves have populated to the point that they are drastically reducing the elk herds - therby making it hard to kill an elk. I can't really relate, since I'm originally from Kansas, where we had neither of the above. But hunters are, well, hunters, and they like to kill stuff.

    So now they will get to kill both wolves and elk. While I'm not really against hunting, it just doesn't seem very sporting to shoot something at 100 or 200 yards with a scoped 7 mm magnum. Now, if they made the hunters use Bowie knives of Kabars, then we might have some sport.

    By the way, I ride a Cake 3 (bike content).

  9. #9
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    yep

    Quote Originally Posted by Visicypher
    Personally, I'd only hunt to eat (if I could hunt at all)
    Amen Amen Amen and I ride a 5 Spot and Giant Reign (bike content and post was too short)

  10. #10
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    Daryl --- you got a new bike (Giant Reign)?

    I'm over at the Statehouse on a regular basis during the session and suprisingly....Otter's comments ain't an issue INSIDE the Statehouse...it's just business as usual. I think some reporters with an agenda took it and ran with it and it's gotten "big" with some folks. By no means am I not justifying Otter's comments....just telling you a perspective from the ground level.

    Bike content....is a 29lb rigid steel SS that is geared 33x17 good for the Foothills? I'll deal with the gearing, but 29lbs!? Out the door brand new it's less than $400. Not a bling bling weight weenie bike, but at least it's a SS specific frame. I just can't get over it's weight. It's on par with my Yeti! Ehhh but maybe that's what I need to build up my strength.

  11. #11
    the new Gilbert Grape
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    People are sheep

    Taken from: Ritualistic Killing, Not Science
    http://www.newwest.net/index.php/mai...g_not_science/

    <i>The danger is this, killing carnivores is the easiest response to make to hunters who say there are not enough elk (or other game animals). Killing carnivores usually does not increase game populations, but it is action. People like to see action even if it is but ritualistic slaughter. In times past how many people were sacrificed to the gods? Very doubtful that nature was appeased, but little doubt those watched the sacrifice felt a whole lot better. Multiple sacrifices of bears, cougars, and wolves in new areas will make folks even happier.</i>

    No bicyclist were harmed in the writing of this post.
    Each bicycle owned exponentially increases the probability that none is working correctly.

  12. #12
    Look out!
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    Quote Originally Posted by ragnarok29er
    And why does he want to kill all the wolves in Idaho? I was thinking about taking a trip up there to ride this summer...not sure if I want to support a state with this type of attitude.

    Enlightened folks fill me in.
    Butch Otter is OLD Idaho. I.E. Kill it cook it, eat it. Cut it. Mine it. Ranchers are gods. City folk are helpless weanies. Republicans rule. Democrats are (Pick one): Commies,Socialists,Terrorists, Brie eating San Francisco alternative lifestyle loving (insert derogatory comment here). In my opinion the hunters complaining about the wolves are a bunch of fat assed lazy s.o.b.'s who can't get off their 4 wheelers and go looking for the elk. I think they need to reintroduce the grizzly bear as well and really make people experience the true wilderness where people are NOT top of the food chain! Bike responsibly stay off wet trails thanks and have a nice day!
    Ride the bike.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by BelaySlave

    Bike content....is a 29lb rigid steel SS that is geared 33x17 good for the Foothills? I'll deal with the gearing, but 29lbs!?
    If you find your 32X20 too easy, then 32X18 or 33X17 is the way to go. If 32X20 still hurts badly (say, on a trail like Hard Guy or 3 Bears), stick with it. Personally, I think 32X20 is the perfect gear for long SS rides in the footies...

  14. #14
    Back of the pack fat guy
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    Quote Originally Posted by BelaySlave
    Bike content....is a 29lb rigid steel SS that is geared 33x17 good for the Foothills? I'll deal with the gearing, but 29lbs!? Out the door brand new it's less than $400. Not a bling bling weight weenie bike, but at least it's a SS specific frame. I just can't get over it's weight. It's on par with my Yeti! Ehhh but maybe that's what I need to build up my strength.
    My 29'er runs a 32x20. You have to remember to factor in the wheel size on a 29'er - a 29'er at 32x20 has roughly the equivalent gear ratio as a 26'er at 32x18. Personally, I think 33x17 on a 29'er for the footies would leave all but the absolute strongest riders doing a lot of walking.

    As for weight, what kind of component spec are we talking about here? Remember the old addage - "cheap, light, strong - pick 2." Clearly, at $400 out the door, you ain't gonna get "light." Lighter wheels is key on 29'ers too, since you're already pushing a bigger wheel around. My guess is that to get the $400 bike to a fun rideable weight and gearing you'll end up spending another $200 to $300 bucks. If that's your price point, and you're sold on a 29'er SS, go with the Redline Monocog 29'er.

    Also, FWIW, I'm planning on transitioning away from SS on my 29'er. I love the bike, but the 26'er SS is easier to ride (smaller wheels = easier to turn), has lots o' bling, and is more agile (shorter wheelbase), and more useable (front sus fork). My 29'er, budget permitting, will soon sport a 1x9 build. I think that would be the perfect footies bike.

    As for wolves, I wish we had badgers in Idaho. Badgers are just way funner and cooler than wolves. Small, well armed and ferocious, kind of like flipnidaho. If we had badgers, then we could all say "I don't need no stinkin' badgers!!" As for hunting, I'll hunt when the animals learn to shoot back. I bet the fatboys who hunt might spend more time couch surfing in their doublewides if the deer or elk were armed with a flamethrower or an AK-47.

    I'm all for the right to arm bears.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Earthpig
    M" As for hunting, I'll hunt when the animals learn to shoot back. I bet the fatboys who hunt might spend more time couch surfing in their doublewides if the deer or elk were armed with a flamethrower or an AK-47.

    I'm all for the right to arm bears.
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  16. #16
    Hi!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Earthpig
    My 29'er runs a 32x20. You have to remember to factor in the wheel size on a 29'er - a 29'er at 32x20 has roughly the equivalent gear ratio as a 26'er at 32x18. Personally, I think 33x17 on a 29'er for the footies would leave all but the absolute strongest riders doing a lot of walking.
    Since my potential new SS is 33x17....is it too simplistic to slap on a 20 back there or is there some formula out there? FWIW...I'd like the gear to be as close to 32x20.

    As for weight, what kind of component spec are we talking about here? Remember the old addage - "cheap, light, strong - pick 2." Clearly, at $400 out the door, you ain't gonna get "light." Lighter wheels is key on 29'ers too, since you're already pushing a bigger wheel around. My guess is that to get the $400 bike to a fun rideable weight and gearing you'll end up spending another $200 to $300 bucks. If that's your price point, and you're sold on a 29'er SS, go with the Redline Monocog 29'er.
    Well it's cheap and strong....definately not light. A coworker of mine was telling me that the rear is pretty heavily built. The frame is steel...Reynolds 520.

    Avid mech brakes....Truvativ FireX crank (same as my current SS)....WTB Speed Disc wheels....Geax Saguro 2.1's....platform pedals....blah blah blah. I think all of that weight is the frame and fork itself.

    Man I don't "need" another bike........

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by BelaySlave
    Since my potential new SS is 33x17....is it too simplistic to slap on a 20 back there or is there some formula out there? FWIW...I'd like the gear to be as close to 32x20.

    Well it's cheap and strong....definately not light. A coworker of mine was telling me that the rear is pretty heavily built. The frame is steel...Reynolds 520.

    Avid mech brakes....Truvativ FireX crank (same as my current SS)....WTB Speed Disc wheels....Geax Saguro 2.1's....platform pedals....blah blah blah. I think all of that weight is the frame and fork itself.

    Man I don't "need" another bike........
    Who makes the frame?
    You can either do a 20 or a 21 in the back to get it close to the 32X20 (assuming it's a 26" bike). If it's a frame with horizontal drops, EBB, Sliding drops, all you'd need to do is add some chain and maybe do some brake adjustments.

  18. #18
    Hi!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by flipnidaho
    Who makes the frame?
    No clue......probably the same folks that do the rest of Novaras frames. I think they are the same company that puts together frames for companies like Giant.

    You can either do a 20 or a 21 in the back to get it close to the 32X20 (assuming it's a 26" bike). If it's a frame with horizontal drops, EBB, Sliding drops, all you'd need to do is add some chain and maybe do some brake adjustments.
    I haven't seen the bike in person, but from the pic it does appear to have horizontal drops. Plus some thingy on the end of the drops too that is probably too hard to see in the above pic.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by flipnidaho
    If you find your 32X20 too easy, then 32X18 or 33X17 is the way to go. If 32X20 still hurts badly (say, on a trail like Hard Guy or 3 Bears), stick with it. Personally, I think 32X20 is the perfect gear for long SS rides in the footies...
    Well, that ratio suited me just fine and dandy this p.m., as I diligently searched for dry trails, and when I coudn't ride dry, I rode on snow. Long live the SS.

    CDB
    May your trails be narrow, crooked, lonesome and dangerous, leading to the most outrageous adventures. Paladin

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by BelaySlave


    No clue......probably the same folks that do the rest of Novaras frames. I think they are the same company that puts together frames for companies like Giant.

    I haven't seen the bike in person, but from the pic it does appear to have horizontal drops. Plus some thingy on the end of the drops too that is probably too hard to see in the above pic.
    i like the loop from the chainstay to the seatstays... kinda like the old Yeti's... This bike has horizontal drops...
    You maybe able to score a better deal during the swap (but then again, I like to ressurect old bikes) if you don't mind possibly having to do another conversion...

  21. #21
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    Butch might be right. Those dogs breed like cats. From the original 2 batches here in Montana we have hundreds now. They show up periodically around Bozeman. There have been lots of cattle kills just in the next valley. In parts of the state the elk herds have been almost wped out, like 80% reduction. The wolves aren't eating that much, they just constantly track the herds and make em nervous. It's taken 10 years to get this bad. The elk abort easily and also the wolves eat the calves as soon as they are born. If we don't get to hunt them soon, it'll be shoot, shovel, and shut up.

    On the whole, our elk population is up. But the wolves aren't everywhere yet.

    Mtnbike content. Me and a bunch of my friends hunt off our bikes. It's a great sport and elk and deer taste way better than cows. Still developing techniques. How to haul gear and meat, etc. It's easy to sneek up on critters. Great way to be sort of a crossover redneck during the crossover season.

    Greg

  22. #22
    King of the Barneys
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    [not sure if I want to support a state with this type of attitude.]

    Let me get this straight... One Man = The Whole State. I missed that calculational leap in math class, so you'll have to tell us how that is possible, OK?

    Now if a governor said he wanted to go duck hunting, our State's attitude would offend you. But that's ok, there are 49 others with attitudes you might agree with, right?

    CDB
    May your trails be narrow, crooked, lonesome and dangerous, leading to the most outrageous adventures. Paladin

  23. #23
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    One Man = The Whole State.
    One Governor= whole state.

  24. #24
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    A long time ago, before I lived here, when someone said "Idaho" the first thing that popped into my mind was potatoes and white supremacists. I suspect that there is a percentage of the population that, if you said "Idaho", the first thing they would think of would be a wolf shooting governor.

    MTB content: there might be singletrack in Idaho
    Nobody cares what kind of bike you ride.

  25. #25
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    You are so weird

  26. #26
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    Read Wolves at our Door by Jim and Jamie Dutcher. It might enlighten you to another point of view on wolves. I suggest stuffing a copy in your pack when you ride. Maybe when you get to the high point of your ride, sit down, grab a bite, take in the view, and read a couple pages. You could even make a point of taking this book with you next time you ride the Sawtooths, where the book is based. Or, check out the movie. I just had a 19 inch plasma widescreen, dvd player, 7 speaker surround sound with a fifteen inch subwoofer installed on my bike so that is my plan. Speaking of, what are you guys doing for the bears game next sunday? Anyone got a kegerator on their bike?

  27. #27
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    Speaking of bears, read "Night of the Grizzlies" and camp at Granite Park Chalet. It's not that big a deal if you're prepared.
    Nobody cares what kind of bike you ride.

  28. #28
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    The wolves are definitely thriving in Valley County. A friend saw 5 of them along the West Mtn Road one morning. I saw one several years ago while driving to Loon Lake for an early morning ride- needless to say I was one nervous nellie while riding by myself in the dawn's early light. I've heard they like Fisher Creek too. Anyone ever run into wolves while riding?

    Please note the bike and patriotic content!

  29. #29
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    i saw two wolves on Little Basin Creek Trail. they were driking from the "crik" and they ran off once they heard and saw us. glad my dogs were not with me on that particular ride.

    i've thought of carrying some pepper spray or grizzly type spray. although, doubt there'd be enough time to break up a fight. hopefully my dogs would realize that the wolves weren't dogs to play with....and would come to me for protection. in which case...i'd spray the bastards and answer questions later.

    i usually just try to make as much noise as possible when i'm in wolf country.

    i heard a story last summer of a hunter's dogs getting killed by wolves.

  30. #30
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    Not wolves, but friends of friends in WV ran into a deer on a ride. Knocked the wind out of the deer and himself. :P
    ...building wherever they'll let me...

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Visicypher
    Not wolves, but friends of friends in WV ran into a deer on a ride. Knocked the wind out of the deer and himself. :P
    that's funny. must have been hauling..and that deer must have been deaf of something...

  32. #32
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    Bozeman Daily Chronicle
    Saturday, February 17, 2007
    Study: Wolves change elk breeding patterns
    ‘‘Most people assume that low numbers of calves were due to direct predation. The paper says in large part it’s because of the effect on pregnancy rates.’’
    — Scott Creel, MSU ecology professor who led study


    BILLINGS (AP) — The presence of wolves in and around Yellowstone National Park has led to changes in elk breeding patterns, likely a significant factor in the decline in elk populations, a study published Friday concludes.
    The study, published in the journal Science, examined behaviors of elk herds in areas where wolves were present and in areas where the predators were not. In addition to depredation by wolves, those herds regularly targeted by packs produced fewer pregnancies and calves, the study found.
    ‘‘Most people assume that low numbers of calves were due to direct predation. The paper says in large part it’s because of the effect on pregnancy rates,’’ said Scott Creel, ecology professor at Montana State University, who led the study.
    The reintroduction of wolves to the Yellowstone ecosystem more than a decade ago has led to numerous studies of the effects of the predators on everything from moose and beavers to willow trees and other plants.
    Some wolf critics have blamed the predators for killing large numbers of elk in the Yellowstone ecosystem.
    Much research has been done on the complex predator-prey relationship of wolves and elk. But until now, no one had looked at how wolves might affect pregnancy rates.
    For their study, Creel and others examined elk scat from five wintering elk herds from 2002 to 2006. The herds were from Gallatin Canyon, Dome Mountain, Blacktail Plateau and Wall Creek in the Yellowstone ecosystem and Garnet Mountain, about 120 miles to the northwest.
    In particular, researchers were looking for progesterone, a hormone that increases during pregnancy.
    When wolves are present, elk tend to move around more, eat in different places and change how they cluster in groups. With those elk, researchers found lower rates of progesterone and, as expected, fewer calves born the following year, the study said.
    ‘‘Elk in the absence of wolves go about their business in one way, they go about the task of feeding themselves, then you put wolves on the landscape and now they have two priorities to trade off one another,’’ Creel said. ‘‘They have a behavioral response to wolves. They carry costs.’’
    The ratio of calves to cows, which is considered an important gauge of an elk herd’s overall health, was lower in areas where wolves were busier, the study found.
    In the Gallatin Canyon herd, there were just eight calves per 100 cows, the study said.
    Generally, 30 calves per 100 cows is considered a solid ratio to sustain a herd.
    The results appear to mesh with an earlier study that looked at how elk calves died on Yellowstone’s Northern Range.
    The project was launched in 2003, after a drop in the number of elk counted during annual surveys in that area. Between 1994 and 2004, the elk count fell from 19,035 to 8,335. This winter’s count, conducted on Dec. 30, found 6,738 elk.
    The calf study found that bears, not wolves, were the leading cause of death for young elk before their first winter, when they would be counted by researchers.
    Creel said results of the latest study could help wildlife managers better understand and predict elk population by using elkto-wolf ratios and using progesterone levels to estimate how many calves there will be the following year.

    Mountain bike content. If I was out mountain biking and was being tracked by wolves, I wouldn't want to breed either.

  33. #33
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    Ten years ago the hot ecology research topic was streamside vegetation loss and bank erosion because of elk overpopulation. Now it's elk breeding.

    Facts don't matter unless there's research dollars attached.

    MTB content: No MTBs allowed in Yellowstone National Park

    And WTF is up with the lamo mouse-over popup adds on certain words?
    Nobody cares what kind of bike you ride.

  34. #34
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    windows blech.
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