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  1. #1
    Back of the pack fat guy
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    Caution;  Merge;  Workers Ahead! Boise Foothills Usage Survey

    This Saturday, there are plans by the City and/or Ridge to Rivers to conduct a survey of foothills trail users. A primary coordinator and/or creator of the survey, from what I understand, is the City's Foothills and Open Space Manager. The survey will be used as part of the "Tending our Foothills" day this Saturday.

    I direct your attention in particular to question #12 in the survey. It reads as follows:

    12) WOULD YOU LIKE TO SEE:
    Trail designations (Mtn. bike only, hiker only, etc.) yes no no opinion
    Different days for different types of trail use yes no no opinion
    Bike clockwise/hiker counterclockwise rotations yes no no opinion
    Seasonal closures of trails to protect wildlife in area yes no no opinion
    Interpretative (ecology, history, geology) signs along trails yes no no opinion
    More dog on-leash trails yes no no opinion
    More dog off-leash trails yes no no opinion


    This question could be interpreted to have a bias towards the creation of new rules that may limit how and when we use the trails - ie, closing certain trails permanently to some users, or closing them on certain days to certain users, and/or mandating that certain trails be used in certain directions on certain days. Measures like these have been implemented in other locales (such as Fox Trail in Ketchum; I have also heard that some trails in/around Denver mandate that certain trails be used in certain directions on certain days.)

    Given the likely location of the survey takers (lower trailheads), it's possible that the survey results may be unfairly biased against cyclists. It's not unreasonable to conclude that hikers would be more willing to stop and fill out a survey and that hikers or runners would be more in favor of closing or limiting trail use than those of us who do ride. And personally, I'm not too keen on having R2R tell me (and you) when we can or can't use the trails and how we can use them. Question #19 in the survey already solicits suggestions as to how to make trail experiences better; why then suggest trail closures or limitations in question #12? And, there are certain things I'd "like to see" that aren't even listed in question #12. And arbitrary trail closures or limitations could result in more conflict rather than less.

    There will always be trail conflicts and those who don't follow the rules - but the proper way to counteract such behavior is education - NOT trail limitations or closures!!! That goes for so-called "problem areas." I'm certainly not going to give up my right to ride down Hulls Gulch just because some hikers whine that others go too fast.


    Now, I'm not saying that some cyclists would be against losing some trails or not be in favor of limiting use thereof. But, this is the classic slippery slope. I strongly encourage all of you to let your voice be heard on Saturday. If you see a survey taker, please stop and let your voice be heard - whatever it is. Heck, even if you can't ride on Saturday, try to make a point of making it to Camelsback or the Reserve or somewhere near a trailhead to find a survey taker and express your opinion. (Especially if you're against unnecessary limitations on trail use.) Or, if you can't make it to a trailhead, please contact Ridge to Rivers directly.

    Julia Grant is the foothills and open space manager for the City. She can be contacted at jgrant@cityofboise.org. Dave Gordon is the R2R program coordinator. He can be reached at dgordon@cityofboise.org.

    I'm not asking that you respond to this post. I'm not interested in debating the pros or cons of trail closures or limitations. I'm just the messenger (albeit a biased one), so don't shoot me. Just let your voice be heard.
    Last edited by Earthpig; 10-06-2009 at 11:56 AM.

  2. #2
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    address the problem area

    i.e. camelsbak and hulls area.. ya know..where all the complainers are

    and, let the rest stay the same.

    i had a muddy trail all to myself yesterday. my dog crapped...and we left a green bag on the side of the trail. since that seems to be the standard practice...

    and, i'm not complaining...serious..

  3. #3
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    Maybe we mountainbikers should join forces and make a statement. How about we push to make Hull's Gulch a mountain bike only trail! Pedestrians already have upper Hull's Gulch to themselves. Maybe we should get lower Hull's to ourselves!
    BoiseBoy

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoiseBoy
    Maybe we mountainbikers should join forces and make a statement. How about we push to make Hull's Gulch a mountain bike only trail! Pedestrians already have upper Hull's Gulch to themselves. Maybe we should get lower Hull's to ourselves!
    Or, how about swapping that, making lower hulls foot only and opening up the upper trail to bikes? It would be fun to be able to ride that area and trails could be built to tie into trail 4 connector fairly easily, enabling bikes to ride to the ridge road without getting on 8th Street.
    Ride the bike.

  5. #5
    Back of the pack fat guy
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    Jesus H. Christ. You people never fail to irritate and/or amaze me with your outright moron-ness. There's a good reason I stopped using this forum for any sort of serious discussion.

    The whole freaking point here is we DON'T want ANY trails closed to ANYBODY. You start closing trails to one group - and I don't care who - could be hikers, dog walkers, midgets on unicycles - and you've opened the door to R2R, the City, whomever to close trails to anybody else. Do you REALLY want that? Think long and hard people. I know that's difficult for some of you, but take a long-term view here. Trail closures are NOT a good idea anywhere. Hulls Gulch, if you couldn't figure it out already, is the PRIME target of certain vocal minorities to be closed to bikers. Yeah, us. That's, from my understanding and reading between the lines, the primary reason for question #12. If you morons answer YES to that question, you're giving R2R free license to close it to you. NO COMPROMISES on this issue.

    FWIW, I think there are special rules for Upper Hulls due to its status as some sort of national recreational trail or something. And hell, some riders poach it regularly.

  6. #6
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    Geoff is dead right -

    on this issue. Regulation is a very slippery slope. Close this trail to that group, and pretty soon you'll be closing that trail to this group, then that other trail to that other group, and it just goes on and on. All user groups need to get along and share the trails.

    Everyone seems to want their own little piece of the foothills. Quite recently, one of the R2R rangers encountered a couple of female hikers who said what we really need is wider trails like they have in California so she and her friend could walk side by side. How do you think that person will respond to the survery?

    The answer is education and peer pressure - not restrictions and regulations.

    TF

  7. #7
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    Bone up or be boned. Rock the vote before the vote rocks you.




    Glenn Beck is my gimp.
    Nobody cares what kind of bike you ride.

  8. #8
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    where and when will the paper shufflers be on saturday?

    a government big enough to give you everything you want is big enough to take away
    everything you have
    T. Jefferson

  9. #9
    Back of the pack fat guy
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    "Polling" locations are the following and will be manned from 7 AM to 7 PM:

    Camelsback Park Trails Access
    9th Street Trails Access
    Grove Trailhead... Read More
    Lower Hulls Trailhead
    Miller Gulch Trailhead
    Corrals Trailhead
    Cottonwood Trailhead
    Freestone Trailhead
    Old Pen
    Homestead Trailhead
    Seamans Gulch Trailhead
    Veterans Trailhead
    Polecat Trailhead

    Any of you weak-willed, slack-jawed, compromising folks need to remember the following:

    They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.

    We must remember that a right lost to one is lost to all.

    It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once.

    Compromise is but the sacrifice of one right or good in the hope of retaining another -- too often ending in the loss of both.

    The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing

    The people never give up their liberty but under some delusion.

    Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect liberty when the government's purposes are beneficent ... the greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well meaning but without understanding.

    As nightfall does not come at once, neither does oppression. In both instances, there is a twilight when everything remains seemingly unchanged. And it is in such twilight that we all must be most aware of change in the air -- however slight -- lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness.

    First they came for the Jews, but I did nothing because I'm not a Jew. Then they came for the socialists, but I did nothing because I'm not a socialist. Then they came for the Catholics, but I did nothing because I'm not a Catholic. Finally, they came for me, but by then there was no one left to help me.

    Liberty isn't a gift, nor a right. People tend to expected gifts and rights, people tend to become complacent with gifts and rights, and then people take them for granted. Liberty is an obligation and a commitment, a duty and a mission, a passion and a desire.

    A society that will trade a little order for a little freedom will lose both, and deserve neither.

    There is no “slippery slope" toward loss of liberties, only a long staircase where each step downward must first be tolerated by the American people and their leaders.

  10. #10
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    Who's your gimp?
    Nobody cares what kind of bike you ride.

  11. #11
    Back of the pack fat guy
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    According to minutes from the February meeting of the so-called Foothills Conservation Advisory Commission, this survey is the work of the City's Open Space and Foothills Advisor and some BSU students. I cannot find any record that the FCAC approved the text of the survey. Now, I find out that the City is recruiting teachers at at least one high school to ask their students to hand out the surveys FOR EXTRA CLASS CREDIT.

    An attempt by SWIMBA to have the City hold off on the survey or re-consider the language of just #12 was rebuffed. First it was too expensive since the City has already printed the surveys. When SWIMBA offered money to cover reprint costs, we were told it was too late. Too late? The packets have NOT been picked up yet!!

    Anybody else see a hidden agenda here? Hey, I'm not one of those gubmit is evil and black helicopters in the sky kind of people, but it doesn't take much to see the obvious agenda here. PLEASE for the love of the trails and all that is mountain biking in the foothills GET to one of the polling places and answer NO to any question related to trail closure or restrictions. And, in response to #19 please state in no uncertain terms that any thought of trail closures or restrictions on any user group will not be tolerated.

    It's really up to us to preserve our rights, people.

    No compromises and no prisoners.

  12. #12
    Back of the pack fat guy
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwistedCrank
    Who's your gimp?
    Well, usually it's you. You look good in leather. But in this case, it's anybody who promotes trail closures, restrictions or compromises.

  13. #13
    mtnjam
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    i wonder if Mike V and his army of dimwits is behind any of this survey
    Just ride down there and jump off something for crying out loud...

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryman
    i wonder if Mike V and his army of dimwits is behind any of this survey
    Is that the guy who got his Chihuahua's name tattooed on his chest?
    Nobody cares what kind of bike you ride.

  15. #15
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    What's wrong with 'separate but equal'?

  16. #16
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    Equal?

    Quote Originally Posted by discfor1
    What's wrong with 'separate but equal'?
    Who said anything about equal? You are going to get the hose! Here is why I am scared. If you want to see the cherry they want to pop, just go to the December 3, 2008 Foothills Conservation Advisory Committee meeting minutes and turn to page twelve. Right before your eyes in blazing black and white is the answer to the question you have all been wonder - what is the agenda behind this.

    http://www.cityofboise.org/Departmen...page30689.aspx

    As someone who has been a staunch support of R2 and gone to bat for them everytime they weren't getting the best treatment, this is really disappointing.

  17. #17
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    we need more rules. more laws.

    it's f-in crazy dangerous out there.

    i just want to zen out with my iPod

    i'm afraid of the public and groups...

    vomit

  18. #18
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    There it is

    Quote Originally Posted by Irishbuddha
    Who said anything about equal? You are going to get the hose! Here is why I am scared. If you want to see the cherry they want to pop, just go to the December 3, 2008 Foothills Conservation Advisory Committee meeting minutes and turn to page twelve. Right before your eyes in blazing black and white is the answer to the question you have all been wonder - what is the agenda behind this.

    http://www.cityofboise.org/Departmen...page30689.aspx

    As someone who has been a staunch support of R2 and gone to bat for them everytime they weren't getting the best treatment, this is really disappointing.
    Does anybody know these individuals who are on the advisory committee?
    It seems that the person who doesn't use Hull's Gulch because it is too busy is the one person who suggests closing it to all users but hikers. Not bikes, no dogs.

    I may do a very long ride on Saturday and take a survey at nearly every trailhead that I can get to. Maybe we should organize a group ride and take the surveys in mass!
    BoiseBoy

  19. #19
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    For y'alls that are too lazy to download and read, here is Irishbudda's "page 12".

    Did somebody say [SIZE="6"]"restrictions relative to mountain bikes"[/SIZE]?



    This is language used at meetings where the future of foothills trails is planned and implemented.
    Nobody cares what kind of bike you ride.

  20. #20
    Look out!
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    [QUOTE=Earthpig]Jesus H. Christ. You people never fail to irritate and/or amaze me with your outright moron-ness. There's a good reason I stopped using this forum for any sort of serious discussion.

    [B]The whole freaking point here is we DON'T want ANY trails closed to ANYBODY.


    Ok, Ok, didn't mean to rile you up. Of course, after they get all the surveys back, digest it, hold meetings, press conferences,etc.,etc, they most likely will toss em all in the shredder and do whatever they want anyway. Do I want to see closures? Absolutely not. One way traffic, NOPE, daily or seasonal closures, Nope. I can barely remember what day I need to be at work, how the heck can I keep track of a day when I can't ride a certain trail. That is messed up. I have to work this weekend so will someone fill out a couple extra for me? Vote early and often right?
    Ride the bike.

  21. #21
    illiterate or intoxicated
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    What I would be interested in knowing is what user group actually uses the trails the most and are the members of the committee hikers/walkers and not cyclists? If hikers/walkers are the minority users compared to cyclists, why is the minority deciding the fate of the majority and why aren't cyclists represented on the committee?

    I moved from Boise in 1993 and rode my mountain bike in the foothills often before moving. Back then, I saw many more cyclists that walkers/hikers.
    "One often finds their destiny on the road taken to avoid it" - Master Ugway

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by windhoar
    What I would be interested in knowing is what user group actually uses the trails the most and are the members of the committee hikers/walkers and not cyclists? If hikers/walkers are the minority users compared to cyclists, why is the minority deciding the fate of the majority and why aren't cyclists represented on the committee?

    I moved from Boise in 1993 and rode my mountain bike in the foothills often before moving. Back then, I saw many more cyclists that walkers/hikers.
    i typically see more mtn. bikers than peds..

    but, it depends on the trail.

    the problem area..i.e. where the most people are....it's more mixed...which is all the more reason to avoid the problem area.

    no compromise.. be hardline. 'cause they are..

  23. #23
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    well said Earthpig on post #10
    thanks for polling locations, looks like philly all over again. voted 3 times said the man
    on TV

  24. #24
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    If your company has an Intranet bulletin board or you have a network of friends that don't do the whole MTBR, Facebook Internet thing, it would be worthwhile to help spread the word. This is the language I used on my corporate bulletin board.


    Boise Mountain Bikers: URGENT ACTION NEEDED:
    On Saturday 10/12 the Boise Foothills Conservation Advisory Committee will be conducting a foothills usage poll at major trailheads. This is not a "how much do you like riding your bike in the foothills" poll but rather a poll to guage support for trail restrictions and regulations: one-way trails, hiker-only trails, etc. In other words, a slippery slope of restrictions which could negatively impact access to mountain biking in the foothills. THIS IS YOUR OPPORTUNITY TO BE HEARD. *****I urge you strongly to participate.***** "Polling" locations are the following and will be manned from 7 AM to 7 PM: Camelsback Park Trails Access, 9th Street Trails Access, Grove Trailhead, Lower Hulls Trailhead, Miller Gulch Trailhead, Corrals Trailhead, Cottonwood Trailhead, Freestone Trailhead, Old Pen, Homestead Trailhead, Seamans Gulch Trailhead, Veterans Trailhead, Polecat Trailhead. This is your opportunity to represent all that is good about our local trails and resources and to say no to restrictions. Give me a call if you have any question or concerns or would like more information.
    Nobody cares what kind of bike you ride.

  25. #25
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    The hipocritical Earthpig has a point; Die 29'ers, SS'ers, FR'er's and 26"ers who do not conform. We need to keep these maggots off the trails and out of this forum! For they have no purpose. We've removed most of them from this forum. Now let us band together and start a coalition to ban them from the trails. Your fun is not my fun, so die you bastards!!

    Same goes for you Joggers/hikers/horses! You need to rise up against these infidels!! Half sizes, Reeboks and Appaloosas need to get the hell off the trails. We don't want your kind around here. ESPECIALLY IN THIS FORUM.

    Earthpig:
    Half-man, part bike and a whole lot of Oprah

    The problem is easy to see...

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