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  1. #1
    Back of the pack fat guy
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    Caution;  Merge;  Workers Ahead! Boise Foothills Usage Survey

    This Saturday, there are plans by the City and/or Ridge to Rivers to conduct a survey of foothills trail users. A primary coordinator and/or creator of the survey, from what I understand, is the City's Foothills and Open Space Manager. The survey will be used as part of the "Tending our Foothills" day this Saturday.

    I direct your attention in particular to question #12 in the survey. It reads as follows:

    12) WOULD YOU LIKE TO SEE:
    Trail designations (Mtn. bike only, hiker only, etc.) yes no no opinion
    Different days for different types of trail use yes no no opinion
    Bike clockwise/hiker counterclockwise rotations yes no no opinion
    Seasonal closures of trails to protect wildlife in area yes no no opinion
    Interpretative (ecology, history, geology) signs along trails yes no no opinion
    More dog on-leash trails yes no no opinion
    More dog off-leash trails yes no no opinion


    This question could be interpreted to have a bias towards the creation of new rules that may limit how and when we use the trails - ie, closing certain trails permanently to some users, or closing them on certain days to certain users, and/or mandating that certain trails be used in certain directions on certain days. Measures like these have been implemented in other locales (such as Fox Trail in Ketchum; I have also heard that some trails in/around Denver mandate that certain trails be used in certain directions on certain days.)

    Given the likely location of the survey takers (lower trailheads), it's possible that the survey results may be unfairly biased against cyclists. It's not unreasonable to conclude that hikers would be more willing to stop and fill out a survey and that hikers or runners would be more in favor of closing or limiting trail use than those of us who do ride. And personally, I'm not too keen on having R2R tell me (and you) when we can or can't use the trails and how we can use them. Question #19 in the survey already solicits suggestions as to how to make trail experiences better; why then suggest trail closures or limitations in question #12? And, there are certain things I'd "like to see" that aren't even listed in question #12. And arbitrary trail closures or limitations could result in more conflict rather than less.

    There will always be trail conflicts and those who don't follow the rules - but the proper way to counteract such behavior is education - NOT trail limitations or closures!!! That goes for so-called "problem areas." I'm certainly not going to give up my right to ride down Hulls Gulch just because some hikers whine that others go too fast.


    Now, I'm not saying that some cyclists would be against losing some trails or not be in favor of limiting use thereof. But, this is the classic slippery slope. I strongly encourage all of you to let your voice be heard on Saturday. If you see a survey taker, please stop and let your voice be heard - whatever it is. Heck, even if you can't ride on Saturday, try to make a point of making it to Camelsback or the Reserve or somewhere near a trailhead to find a survey taker and express your opinion. (Especially if you're against unnecessary limitations on trail use.) Or, if you can't make it to a trailhead, please contact Ridge to Rivers directly.

    Julia Grant is the foothills and open space manager for the City. She can be contacted at jgrant@cityofboise.org. Dave Gordon is the R2R program coordinator. He can be reached at dgordon@cityofboise.org.

    I'm not asking that you respond to this post. I'm not interested in debating the pros or cons of trail closures or limitations. I'm just the messenger (albeit a biased one), so don't shoot me. Just let your voice be heard.
    Last edited by Earthpig; 10-06-2009 at 12:56 PM.

  2. #2
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    address the problem area

    i.e. camelsbak and hulls area.. ya know..where all the complainers are

    and, let the rest stay the same.

    i had a muddy trail all to myself yesterday. my dog crapped...and we left a green bag on the side of the trail. since that seems to be the standard practice...

    and, i'm not complaining...serious..

  3. #3
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    Maybe we mountainbikers should join forces and make a statement. How about we push to make Hull's Gulch a mountain bike only trail! Pedestrians already have upper Hull's Gulch to themselves. Maybe we should get lower Hull's to ourselves!
    BoiseBoy

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoiseBoy
    Maybe we mountainbikers should join forces and make a statement. How about we push to make Hull's Gulch a mountain bike only trail! Pedestrians already have upper Hull's Gulch to themselves. Maybe we should get lower Hull's to ourselves!
    Or, how about swapping that, making lower hulls foot only and opening up the upper trail to bikes? It would be fun to be able to ride that area and trails could be built to tie into trail 4 connector fairly easily, enabling bikes to ride to the ridge road without getting on 8th Street.
    Ride the bike.

  5. #5
    Back of the pack fat guy
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    Jesus H. Christ. You people never fail to irritate and/or amaze me with your outright moron-ness. There's a good reason I stopped using this forum for any sort of serious discussion.

    The whole freaking point here is we DON'T want ANY trails closed to ANYBODY. You start closing trails to one group - and I don't care who - could be hikers, dog walkers, midgets on unicycles - and you've opened the door to R2R, the City, whomever to close trails to anybody else. Do you REALLY want that? Think long and hard people. I know that's difficult for some of you, but take a long-term view here. Trail closures are NOT a good idea anywhere. Hulls Gulch, if you couldn't figure it out already, is the PRIME target of certain vocal minorities to be closed to bikers. Yeah, us. That's, from my understanding and reading between the lines, the primary reason for question #12. If you morons answer YES to that question, you're giving R2R free license to close it to you. NO COMPROMISES on this issue.

    FWIW, I think there are special rules for Upper Hulls due to its status as some sort of national recreational trail or something. And hell, some riders poach it regularly.

  6. #6
    Barneys Unite!
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    Geoff is dead right -

    on this issue. Regulation is a very slippery slope. Close this trail to that group, and pretty soon you'll be closing that trail to this group, then that other trail to that other group, and it just goes on and on. All user groups need to get along and share the trails.

    Everyone seems to want their own little piece of the foothills. Quite recently, one of the R2R rangers encountered a couple of female hikers who said what we really need is wider trails like they have in California so she and her friend could walk side by side. How do you think that person will respond to the survery?

    The answer is education and peer pressure - not restrictions and regulations.

    TF

  7. #7
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    Bone up or be boned. Rock the vote before the vote rocks you.




    Glenn Beck is my gimp.
    Nobody cares what kind of bike you ride.

  8. #8
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    where and when will the paper shufflers be on saturday?

    a government big enough to give you everything you want is big enough to take away
    everything you have
    T. Jefferson

  9. #9
    Back of the pack fat guy
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    "Polling" locations are the following and will be manned from 7 AM to 7 PM:

    Camelsback Park Trails Access
    9th Street Trails Access
    Grove Trailhead... Read More
    Lower Hulls Trailhead
    Miller Gulch Trailhead
    Corrals Trailhead
    Cottonwood Trailhead
    Freestone Trailhead
    Old Pen
    Homestead Trailhead
    Seamans Gulch Trailhead
    Veterans Trailhead
    Polecat Trailhead

    Any of you weak-willed, slack-jawed, compromising folks need to remember the following:

    They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.

    We must remember that a right lost to one is lost to all.

    It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once.

    Compromise is but the sacrifice of one right or good in the hope of retaining another -- too often ending in the loss of both.

    The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing

    The people never give up their liberty but under some delusion.

    Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect liberty when the government's purposes are beneficent ... the greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well meaning but without understanding.

    As nightfall does not come at once, neither does oppression. In both instances, there is a twilight when everything remains seemingly unchanged. And it is in such twilight that we all must be most aware of change in the air -- however slight -- lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness.

    First they came for the Jews, but I did nothing because I'm not a Jew. Then they came for the socialists, but I did nothing because I'm not a socialist. Then they came for the Catholics, but I did nothing because I'm not a Catholic. Finally, they came for me, but by then there was no one left to help me.

    Liberty isn't a gift, nor a right. People tend to expected gifts and rights, people tend to become complacent with gifts and rights, and then people take them for granted. Liberty is an obligation and a commitment, a duty and a mission, a passion and a desire.

    A society that will trade a little order for a little freedom will lose both, and deserve neither.

    There is no “slippery slope" toward loss of liberties, only a long staircase where each step downward must first be tolerated by the American people and their leaders.

  10. #10
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    Who's your gimp?
    Nobody cares what kind of bike you ride.

  11. #11
    Back of the pack fat guy
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    According to minutes from the February meeting of the so-called Foothills Conservation Advisory Commission, this survey is the work of the City's Open Space and Foothills Advisor and some BSU students. I cannot find any record that the FCAC approved the text of the survey. Now, I find out that the City is recruiting teachers at at least one high school to ask their students to hand out the surveys FOR EXTRA CLASS CREDIT.

    An attempt by SWIMBA to have the City hold off on the survey or re-consider the language of just #12 was rebuffed. First it was too expensive since the City has already printed the surveys. When SWIMBA offered money to cover reprint costs, we were told it was too late. Too late? The packets have NOT been picked up yet!!

    Anybody else see a hidden agenda here? Hey, I'm not one of those gubmit is evil and black helicopters in the sky kind of people, but it doesn't take much to see the obvious agenda here. PLEASE for the love of the trails and all that is mountain biking in the foothills GET to one of the polling places and answer NO to any question related to trail closure or restrictions. And, in response to #19 please state in no uncertain terms that any thought of trail closures or restrictions on any user group will not be tolerated.

    It's really up to us to preserve our rights, people.

    No compromises and no prisoners.

  12. #12
    Back of the pack fat guy
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwistedCrank
    Who's your gimp?
    Well, usually it's you. You look good in leather. But in this case, it's anybody who promotes trail closures, restrictions or compromises.

  13. #13
    mtnjam
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    i wonder if Mike V and his army of dimwits is behind any of this survey
    Just ride down there and jump off something for crying out loud...

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryman
    i wonder if Mike V and his army of dimwits is behind any of this survey
    Is that the guy who got his Chihuahua's name tattooed on his chest?
    Nobody cares what kind of bike you ride.

  15. #15
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    What's wrong with 'separate but equal'?

  16. #16
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    Equal?

    Quote Originally Posted by discfor1
    What's wrong with 'separate but equal'?
    Who said anything about equal? You are going to get the hose! Here is why I am scared. If you want to see the cherry they want to pop, just go to the December 3, 2008 Foothills Conservation Advisory Committee meeting minutes and turn to page twelve. Right before your eyes in blazing black and white is the answer to the question you have all been wonder - what is the agenda behind this.

    http://www.cityofboise.org/Departmen...page30689.aspx

    As someone who has been a staunch support of R2 and gone to bat for them everytime they weren't getting the best treatment, this is really disappointing.

  17. #17
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    we need more rules. more laws.

    it's f-in crazy dangerous out there.

    i just want to zen out with my iPod

    i'm afraid of the public and groups...

    vomit

  18. #18
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    There it is

    Quote Originally Posted by Irishbuddha
    Who said anything about equal? You are going to get the hose! Here is why I am scared. If you want to see the cherry they want to pop, just go to the December 3, 2008 Foothills Conservation Advisory Committee meeting minutes and turn to page twelve. Right before your eyes in blazing black and white is the answer to the question you have all been wonder - what is the agenda behind this.

    http://www.cityofboise.org/Departmen...page30689.aspx

    As someone who has been a staunch support of R2 and gone to bat for them everytime they weren't getting the best treatment, this is really disappointing.
    Does anybody know these individuals who are on the advisory committee?
    It seems that the person who doesn't use Hull's Gulch because it is too busy is the one person who suggests closing it to all users but hikers. Not bikes, no dogs.

    I may do a very long ride on Saturday and take a survey at nearly every trailhead that I can get to. Maybe we should organize a group ride and take the surveys in mass!
    BoiseBoy

  19. #19
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    For y'alls that are too lazy to download and read, here is Irishbudda's "page 12".

    Did somebody say "restrictions relative to mountain bikes"?



    This is language used at meetings where the future of foothills trails is planned and implemented.
    Nobody cares what kind of bike you ride.

  20. #20
    Look out!
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    [QUOTE=Earthpig]Jesus H. Christ. You people never fail to irritate and/or amaze me with your outright moron-ness. There's a good reason I stopped using this forum for any sort of serious discussion.

    [B]The whole freaking point here is we DON'T want ANY trails closed to ANYBODY.


    Ok, Ok, didn't mean to rile you up. Of course, after they get all the surveys back, digest it, hold meetings, press conferences,etc.,etc, they most likely will toss em all in the shredder and do whatever they want anyway. Do I want to see closures? Absolutely not. One way traffic, NOPE, daily or seasonal closures, Nope. I can barely remember what day I need to be at work, how the heck can I keep track of a day when I can't ride a certain trail. That is messed up. I have to work this weekend so will someone fill out a couple extra for me? Vote early and often right?
    Ride the bike.

  21. #21
    illiterate or intoxicated
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    What I would be interested in knowing is what user group actually uses the trails the most and are the members of the committee hikers/walkers and not cyclists? If hikers/walkers are the minority users compared to cyclists, why is the minority deciding the fate of the majority and why aren't cyclists represented on the committee?

    I moved from Boise in 1993 and rode my mountain bike in the foothills often before moving. Back then, I saw many more cyclists that walkers/hikers.
    "One often finds their destiny on the road taken to avoid it" - Master Ugway

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by windhoar
    What I would be interested in knowing is what user group actually uses the trails the most and are the members of the committee hikers/walkers and not cyclists? If hikers/walkers are the minority users compared to cyclists, why is the minority deciding the fate of the majority and why aren't cyclists represented on the committee?

    I moved from Boise in 1993 and rode my mountain bike in the foothills often before moving. Back then, I saw many more cyclists that walkers/hikers.
    i typically see more mtn. bikers than peds..

    but, it depends on the trail.

    the problem area..i.e. where the most people are....it's more mixed...which is all the more reason to avoid the problem area.

    no compromise.. be hardline. 'cause they are..

  23. #23
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    well said Earthpig on post #10
    thanks for polling locations, looks like philly all over again. voted 3 times said the man
    on TV

  24. #24
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    If your company has an Intranet bulletin board or you have a network of friends that don't do the whole MTBR, Facebook Internet thing, it would be worthwhile to help spread the word. This is the language I used on my corporate bulletin board.


    Boise Mountain Bikers: URGENT ACTION NEEDED:
    On Saturday 10/12 the Boise Foothills Conservation Advisory Committee will be conducting a foothills usage poll at major trailheads. This is not a "how much do you like riding your bike in the foothills" poll but rather a poll to guage support for trail restrictions and regulations: one-way trails, hiker-only trails, etc. In other words, a slippery slope of restrictions which could negatively impact access to mountain biking in the foothills. THIS IS YOUR OPPORTUNITY TO BE HEARD. *****I urge you strongly to participate.***** "Polling" locations are the following and will be manned from 7 AM to 7 PM: Camelsback Park Trails Access, 9th Street Trails Access, Grove Trailhead, Lower Hulls Trailhead, Miller Gulch Trailhead, Corrals Trailhead, Cottonwood Trailhead, Freestone Trailhead, Old Pen, Homestead Trailhead, Seamans Gulch Trailhead, Veterans Trailhead, Polecat Trailhead. This is your opportunity to represent all that is good about our local trails and resources and to say no to restrictions. Give me a call if you have any question or concerns or would like more information.
    Nobody cares what kind of bike you ride.

  25. #25
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    The hipocritical Earthpig has a point; Die 29'ers, SS'ers, FR'er's and 26"ers who do not conform. We need to keep these maggots off the trails and out of this forum! For they have no purpose. We've removed most of them from this forum. Now let us band together and start a coalition to ban them from the trails. Your fun is not my fun, so die you bastards!!

    Same goes for you Joggers/hikers/horses! You need to rise up against these infidels!! Half sizes, Reeboks and Appaloosas need to get the hell off the trails. We don't want your kind around here. ESPECIALLY IN THIS FORUM.

    Earthpig:
    Half-man, part bike and a whole lot of Oprah

    The problem is easy to see...

  26. #26
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    The end is near!

    I cannot believe that I am doing this, but I may have to defend EP.
    Although he and I do not see eye to eye on many issues, I will take his side on this one.

    Trail closures (and access changes) are serious and need our attention.
    Historically speaking, if a segment of the user population has lost access to trails it is most often mountain bikes. Many tend to complain about the trail conditions and technical make up (or lack thereof) the trails in our foothills. One thing is now for sure; a boring trail is still better than no trail.

    I think that the message that is trying to be sent is that trails should not be closed or restricted for any user group. As soon as it is closed to one segment ot the population then it will be quite easy to restrict other segments as well. It is quite likely that those restricted could be mountain bikes.

    Pass the word and try to organize in order to fill out as many surveys as possible on Saturday. This is the only that we can better our chances at keeping access to the Boise foothills trails.
    I have emailed Julia Grant stating my disappointment in the Committee's recommendations to restrict dogs and mountain bikers from Hull's Gulch. I have also stated my feelings on the questions on the survey. I have also reminded her of the significant amount of trail building, trail maintenence and public education that mountain bikers perform for our foothills trail system. My personal feeling is that it would be hard to volunteer for an organization (R2R) that does not support our rights as mountain bikers.
    BoiseBoy

  27. #27
    BMX:Our Shining Future
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    Bicycles Are Bad

    they improve people's health and are WAY too efficient a form of transportation

    they don't contribute to our national economy they cut into health care spending cut into gasoline sales cut into car sales cut into road construction they even cut down on electric bills since they raise people's metabolism

    worse of all they increase blood to the brain making bike riders particularly dangerous sorts of persons who just might not be as docile and obedient and hypnotized and they really should be watching television and not racing around for no buisness whatsoever

    we need to stop them now! we need to ban bicycles on all federal right of ways including interstate highways national parks wilderness areas national monuments public trail systems state lands county parks sidewalks you name it anything and everything should be OFF LIMITS TO BICYCLES!!

    make them get out into the streets where we can run them down with out diesel pick up trucks and SUV'S the cops will just say it was an accident and let us go FREE!!! plus it's fun to run over people who are thinner than you are especially when you are playing video games on line with your blackberry whilst on the way to "work"
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  28. #28
    Back of the pack fat guy
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    Quote Originally Posted by MTBorDIE
    Earthpig: Half-man, part bike and a whole lot of Oprah...
    That's fecking awesome.

    Will you feel me up?

    This makes me feel all funny and excited.

    Xtremely hot.
    Last edited by Earthpig; 10-09-2009 at 09:03 AM.

  29. #29
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    Speaking of Thomas Jefferson - the dude was clued in. Yo. Knew that the darker the cherry, the sweeter the pie.

    Swole.
    Nobody cares what kind of bike you ride.

  30. #30
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    fighting the man

    EP is correct on this one gang.
    I was enjoying the heck out of the upper nature trail right up to the day they booted us off. At the time i found myself in Marin County riding on MT Tam with a few locals, the first thing they asked me after finding out i was from ID was, "Had we "organized as MT Bikers yet". They were lamenting the closure of most of their local trails to a well organized group of equestrians. "It will happen to you too" was their prophetic last words as they rode off on sweet fire trail with big 20 mph speed limit signs posted every 500 yards (I s#$$ you not!).
    Nip it in the Bud!

  31. #31
    Back of the pack fat guy
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    Committee Member Black - who is the person noted above who wants to restrict mountain bikers from some (or all) trails - is from the Bay area.

    Why is that not a shock???????

    I for one plan to organize and participate in civil disobediance if trails are ever restricted. Like the "sit ins" of days of old, we'll have some "bike ins." I'm getting all hot and bothered just thinking about it. Or maybe that's the salad talking.

  32. #32
    mtnjam
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    Quote Originally Posted by Earthpig
    I for one plan to organize and participate in civil disobediance if trails are ever restricted. Like the "sit ins" of days of old, we'll have some "bike ins."
    i'm right there with ya EP, for the mean time "ride 'em while you can"

    I'll be at 3 TH's tomorrow with Mrs. Mtnjam
    Just ride down there and jump off something for crying out loud...

  33. #33
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    tell the poll takers we are from ACORN and would be happy to take the ballouts back to the committee. Then we can throw out the ballouts that don't
    agree with us
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  34. #34
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    Civil muthafukkin dis-o-bee-dee-ance. Werd.

    All in the name of conservation, protecting us from the twin evils of godless communism abroad and liberal humanism at home. And squashing the right-wing conspirist pantywaste pillowbiters like the bugs they are.

    I'll be monkeywrenchin the gates and rollin the rocks and pulling the balls out.

    Ballouts. That's fukkin hysterical.

    Swole. Merican Legend. Bishes.
    Nobody cares what kind of bike you ride.

  35. #35
    jalepenio jimenez
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    After a careful thirty second deliberation, I have to conclude that road bikes should be curtailed on BB road.

    They ride at excessive speed every time they descend back into Boise. What's the big rush? Do they miss town so much they have to speed back? Are they trying to get run-over?

    WTF?
    White Clouds - Heart of Idaho

  36. #36
    Back of the pack fat guy
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    Did somebody say Mexican Legend?
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  37. #37
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    Did everyone fill one out? We filled out 2 at the Mtn Cove trailhead.
    Idaho

  38. #38
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    I filled out three around Eagle and Polecat.
    "I've got a full on robot chubby." -Evil Theodore "Ted" Logan

  39. #39
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    Smile My experience on Sat....

    I volunteered to hand out surveys on Sat and had some intersting observations. #1 was that it was damn cold at 7 am. Don't ask why I opted to do the early shift because I'll happily tell you that it was so I could ride at 11 after it warmed up a bit. It worked out well actually!

    I was at the old pen trail and the early users were #1-walkers, #2-dogs, #3-runners, #4 bikers. Most everyone was pretty stoked at the thought of filling out a survey that may help deal with their few complaints about their trail use experiences.

    A couple of opinionated people made me laugh a bit. The first was the woman who had a huge issue of limiting trail user types. Her opinion was that no one should be restricted from using any trail. I brought up the idea of allowing motorcycles and ATVs and she hadn't even considered that idea. I couldn't help but imagine what conditions our trails would be in if they were all open to motorized traffic. Better yet, who would really want to try and dirt bike up a trail flooded with people. Anyways, she was really annoying.

    One other guy humored me as well. He was *****ing about poison oak within a few feet of some trails. I just hope he remembers how bad he itched last time he went off trail. He was kind of a grumpy old bastard. I'm sure we've all passed him on our bikes at some point before.

    The two people above were very outspoken. The squeaky wheel gets the grease and these are the types of people that I assume do a lot of squeaking to R2R, etc... As an avid biker, I suggest we all do I squeaking in a very positive and helpful way in order to preserve our rights to using such an amazing asset of a trail system. Some things that come to mind are doing trail work and cleanup, following already established rules, and being down right kind to others. Why would anyone ever want to restrict the keepers of the trails from using them???

    Anyways, ride on!

  40. #40
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    Weird Science

    As a University of Distinction BSU should welcome peer review of any public service work to establish quality scientific methodology.

    R-2-R admits that they do not tabulate issues regarding trails using any data collection science. If some one calls, writes or sends email it gets logged. It could be the same person with the same issue and it is "counted" but no one looks to see if the report is coming in from the same squeaky wheel.

    Holding government agencies to decision making policy based on verifiable scientific evidence is almost impossible unless going to all the meetings to hold them accountable is how you want to spend your time.

    Q-Was this survey developed using ANY science methodology?
    If so - please provide the publication.

    Q-Did anyone look to see the history of past surveys to identify trends over time?
    (survey in 2001 and one in the 1990's)

    One would think a trend analysis would be of benefit.

    What is the Thesis Statement for this survey?
    (these may not be the best statements to prove or disprove but any quality survey starts with a Thesis Statement BEFORE the survey questions are designed)

    Examples:
    "Trail user experiences have (or have not) deteriorated over time."
    "Trail use has (or has not ) increased by user group."

    Then design a survey to collect the data. Then analyze the data. Then discover if the thesis statement can be supported or disproved or find out if the survey was flawed.
    or
    Develop an "opinion poll" that has no verifiable scientific relevance.

  41. #41
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    i just want to pay an annual fee for less trails with more restrictions..

  42. #42
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    Did anyone find a black camelback water bottle in the reserve parking lot on Saturday? I told myself not to forget the bottle after putting it on the bumper while loading up my bike . . .
    Idaho

  43. #43
    Back of the pack fat guy
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    Quote Originally Posted by garnetspur
    i just want to pay an annual fee for less trails with more restrictions..
    I just want free crack cocaine and some 21 year old hookers. With a side salad.

    (I would have liked those options under the "would you like to see" question in the survey.)
    Attached Images Attached Images

  44. #44
    mtnjam
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    i say just put back up the "Have Fun, But Don't Have a Blast" signs everywhere in the foothills, not just at Military Reserve and invite the National Guard to come over and start lobbing shells back into the foothills.
    Just ride down there and jump off something for crying out loud...

  45. #45
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    There should be eye-wash stations and defibrillators and sanitary napkin deposit boxes at every trail junction
    Nobody cares what kind of bike you ride.

  46. #46
    mtnjam
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    how 'bout a beer station at every trail junction
    Just ride down there and jump off something for crying out loud...

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Howley
    As a University of Distinction BSU should welcome peer review of any public service work to establish quality scientific methodology.

    R-2-R admits that they do not tabulate issues regarding trails using any data collection science. If some one calls, writes or sends email it gets logged. It could be the same person with the same issue and it is "counted" but no one looks to see if the report is coming in from the same squeaky wheel.

    Holding government agencies to decision making policy based on verifiable scientific evidence is almost impossible unless going to all the meetings to hold them accountable is how you want to spend your time.

    Q-Was this survey developed using ANY science methodology?
    If so - please provide the publication.

    Q-Did anyone look to see the history of past surveys to identify trends over time?
    (survey in 2001 and one in the 1990's)

    One would think a trend analysis would be of benefit.

    What is the Thesis Statement for this survey?
    (these may not be the best statements to prove or disprove but any quality survey starts with a Thesis Statement BEFORE the survey questions are designed)

    Examples:
    "Trail user experiences have (or have not) deteriorated over time."
    "Trail use has (or has not ) increased by user group."

    Then design a survey to collect the data. Then analyze the data. Then discover if the thesis statement can be supported or disproved or find out if the survey was flawed.
    or
    Develop an "opinion poll" that has no verifiable scientific relevance.
    Excellent points! This is the impression I got from this too. Scientific data collection is only as good as itís analysis, and an opinion poll without solid and relevant data trends and analysis, is just that -an opinion.
    Hey, is that a Huffy? That's a nice-lookin' bike, boy!

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwistedCrank
    There should be eye-wash stations and defibrillators and sanitary napkin deposit boxes at every trail junction

    Awesome
    Hey, is that a Huffy? That's a nice-lookin' bike, boy!

  49. #49
    TRAIL KUBUKI CORNDOGGER
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirt Monkey
    Excellent points! This is the impression I got from this too. Scientific data collection is only as good as it’s analysis, and an opinion poll without solid and relevant data trends and analysis, is just that -an opinion.
    Just so happens I have years of experience in this field.

    In the field of sampling theory and spatial statistics there is an exquisite artifact known as spatial autocorrelation. Basically it states that things are going to be more like things they are close to than they are to things that they are far away from.

    Spatial autocorelation will likely be apparent in the survey's results and will show a strong bias towards lower foothills users who don't travel long distances on the trails during a typical Saturday in the fall and who are willing to stop and chat. This population is not an accurate representation of the population of foothills users as a whole and the uptight lady from San Francisco with the phobia of off-lease dogs and smiling mountain bikers should shut her cakehole and take up an indoor activity like scrapbooking..
    Last edited by TwistedCrank; 10-14-2009 at 05:00 PM.
    Nobody cares what kind of bike you ride.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwistedCrank
    In the field of sampling theory and spatial statistics there is an exquisite artifact known as spatial autocorrelation. Basically it states that things are going to be more like things they are close to than they are to things that they are far away from.

    Spatial autocorelation will likely be apparent in the survey's results and will show a strong bias towards lower foothills users who don't travel long distances on the trails during a typical Saturday in the fall and who are willing to stop and chat. This population is not an accurate representation of the population of foothills users as a whole and the uptight lady from San Francisco with the phobia of off-lease dogs and smiling mountain bikers should shut her cakehole and take up an indoor activity like scrapbooking..
    Tobler would be so proud!

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