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An article from Fridays Paper on the Boulder-Whiteclouds

2K views 44 replies 12 participants last post by  velosapiens 
#1 ·
Idaho Statesman

Survey: Many locals oppose wilderness in Boulder-White Clouds Mountains

But Rep. Mike Simpson and a Custer County official say the results are skewed.
A recreation group opposing wilderness in the Boulder-White Clouds Mountains says a survey points to overwhelming local opposition to Congressman Mike Simpson's bill that would designate 312,000 acres near Stanley as wilderness.
Simpson and a Custer County commissioner disputed the results of the survey and said it was part of an opposition campaign led by the group.

The Central Idaho Economic Development and Recreation Act passed the House last year but was not voted on in the Senate. It is currently in a congressional committee, and Simpson expects to have a hearing on it in September.

The Idaho Recreation Council, a group of motorcyclists, snowmobilers, mountain bikers and other recreationists, commissioned the national polling firm Tarrance Group to do a random survey of 400 citizens in Custer and Lemhi counties. The council released the results Thursday in Boise.

The 13-question survey twice asked people what they thought about the wilderness bill. In the first response, 71 percent were in opposition and 14 percent in favor, with the remainder unsure. When asked again in the final question of the survey, 83 percent were opposed and 10 percent in favor.

Asking a question in a survey, providing information and then repeating it again is a "standard issue-based survey," said John Watts, a partner at Veritas Advisors of Boise, which conducts public opinion research.

Chris Cook, spokesman for the Idaho Recreation Council, said the survey shows that Simpson can't "hide behind the idea that there's local support."

"Congressman Simpson has stated that he has support at the local level for this legislation," Cook said. "Yet one of the most substantial pieces of research ever done in the region by one of the best pollsters in the country shows that the local community opposes the bill or any other wilderness designation in their counties."

But Simpson and Custer County Commissioner Wayne Butts of Challis said the poll is part of a media campaign to spread misinformation and drum up opposition to the bill.

"I call B.S., because they were misled," Butts said.

The poll followed several weeks of radio and newspaper advertisements in the area that opposed the bill, as well as a postcard campaign that asked residents to contact their county commissioners, Butts said.

Simpson said the polling was done to gauge the effectiveness of the advertising campaign as much as to gauge public opinion.

"I think it will have very little impact on the larger debate," Simpson said. "You can drive the message however you want to drive it and get the results you want to get. They've done this very effectively over the last few weeks."

Simpson said he's found different opinions while talking to people in Custer County.

"I've done something they (the pollsters) haven't done. I've gone up there and had town hall meetings," he said.

Lots of people oppose certain items in the bill, Simpson said, but most were supportive of doing something to resolve the debate.

Butts said he thinks there's already enough wilderness in Idaho, but he supports CIEDRA as a way to increase Custer County's tax base, which includes over 95 percent public lands. Converting some of the land to private property would increase the county's tax base.

"I'm still standing my ground," he said. "I'm up for election, and I am not concerned (about getting voted out of office)."

Cook counters that people in the area don't want a wilderness designation for the Boulder-White Cloud Mountains.

"The people who are most affected by this bill, the citizens of Custer and Lemhi counties, have spoken very clearly that they don't want more wilderness in their backyard," Cook said.

Butts said he talked with several people who sent him postcards opposing CIEDRA, and they changed their opinions when they got more information.

"There's a lot of things people haven't done their homework on," he said.

Butts also questioned why polling was done in Custer and Lemhi counties rather than Custer and Blaine counties, which he said are the only two counties that border the proposed wilderness.

Blaine County, home to Sun Valley and among the most heavily Democratic counties in the state, would have likely changed the outcome of the poll, he said.

Adena Cook of Idaho Falls (no relation to Chris Cook) said Lemhi and Custer counties were selected because they have "similar customs, cultures and demographics."

Chris Cook added that the econ-omies of those two counties would be most affected if CIEDRA becomes law.

Roger Phillips: 373-6615
 
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#3 ·
Thanks for the update Chris. I really hope that the bill doesn't make it through Congress. Losing mountain bike access to the Boulder-White Clouds would be a huge negative for recreational users in the state.
 
#5 ·
Oh please!

Chris,

Your passion for the sport and willingness to support mountain biking should be commended. However, back handed antics and B.S. approaches like the one used to poll Custer and Lemi County really bring into question the ethics and credibility of mountain bikers. It's about like the trick Carl Rowe pulled on John McCain in the racist south asking if people would vote for someone that had fathered a black child.

Is the Idaho Recreation Council synonymous with the Blue Ribbon Coalition? Is the IRC just a front for the extractive industry? Are mountain bikers being used as pawns because they are too stupid to represent themselves? After what I have just seen at Trailapolooza and witnessed over the last year, I don't think we need to stand behind the motorized community and ask for crumbs.

A quick Google search pulled this little gem up..

The Idaho Recreation Council is holding an important press conference tomorrow and from the sounds of it every single snowmobile who can make it should show up.
The press conference is scheduled for Thursday, Aug. 9 at 11 a.m. at Fort Boise Park in Boise, ID. It's recommended you be there about 15 minutes early.
We don't know many of the details but we do know it has to do with Rep. Mike Simpson's Wilderness proposal for the Boulder-White Clouds in Idaho.
Adena Cook of the Blue Ribbon Coalition said, "We worked all media hard in Custer and Lemhi County, took the poll and the results are in. An overwhelming majority of respondents opposed CIEDRA and the poll was designed and done by one of the best firms available. I'm sure you want to know more, but we're holding off any information until the press conference and briefing session."
If you need any additional information about CIEDRA, see SAWS' previous alerts:
http://www.snowmobile-alliance.org/uploads/SAWS_Action_Alert_-_ BWC2_Wilderness_Proposal.htm
http://www.snowmobile-alliance.org/uploads/SAWS_Action_Alert_-_ BWC_Wilderness_Proposal.htm

At best, the poll shows the ad campaign may have been effective. But it doesn't show the people of the United States opinion on the issue and doesn't even show the people of Idaho's opinion on the topic.

This is a topic I have very mixed emotions and get frustrated by the mountain bike community wanting to hold hands with the Blue Ribbon Coalition and the motorized community. Does that mean we think it is a good idea for ATVs to continue gaining more access and destroying single track? Do we want the White Clouds to look like Sinker Creek this spring? That's what the ATV and some of the motorized want.

And it's not just ATVs. Each year the snowmobiles seem to be getting more powerful and it is harder and harder to find areas to backcountry ski that haven't been chewed up with high marks. If it was just motorcycles, I won't mind. If it were just motorcycles and snowmobiles I won't be happy but I wouldn't be disgusted like I am about the prospects of opening up the White Clouds to ATVs and the back door for the extractive industry.

If mountain bikers want to stand as one and work to include a swath from Fisher Creek to Warm Springs as biker access into the Wilderness, I would be all for it. But if it means holding hands with the Blue Ribbon Coalition and supporting ATV access and the end of the Wilderness initiative, well give me Wilderness.

If you question what I am talking about go ride Bench Creek in the Sawtooths and then let us know what you think.

The bottom line is Chris this was beneath you. This is something I would expect from the Turd Blossom. Come on you have done to much good to stoop this direction.:skep:
 
#6 ·
No backdoor

The IRC is not a backdoor for the extractive industry nor does it support ATVs widening singletrack trails. Let's not forget that the whiteclouds are already protected by a National Recreation Area designation. The environmental organizations in this state have no real interest in accommodating mountain bikers and if they had it their way we would be loosing miles upon miles every year. Look at what is happening in Montana with the environmental groups trying to ban mountain bikes from thousands of miles of exist trails.

I have called the Salmon Challis National Forest over a number of years to try and get them to do something about bench creek and also swamp creek with no luck. Maybe this year will be different especially since there are travel plan documents showing that only motorcycles will be allowed on Bench and Swamp. Maybe this time I will offer to go install post to deter ATV usage.
 
#7 ·
Irishbuddha said:
Chris,
It's about like the trick Carl Rowe pulled on John McCain in the racist south asking if people would vote for someone that had fathered a black child.
have you ever been to the dirty "racist" south?

always great to have outsiders (as we call 'em...yankees) act like their region is not prejudice and put down the south. i've seen plenty of racism in lily-white idaho. maybe not from the liberal/socialist northend boise crowd. but, get out into real idaho...or anywhere else...and i've seen/heard it.

funniest thing is..they've never experienced any diversity or races/cultures and yet they're prejudice.

good life lesson. fly into ATL, and take a ride on the MARTA.

southern food is the best.
 
#8 ·
Cracklins! Yum

mmmmm. southern food.

I once didn't get served for an hour. I never at the place again. Geez. The service was awful.:rolleyes:

Back to the topic.

Ack. The CIEDRA. Part of me wishes a compromise could be reached. The other part says"Hell Al, your talking to yourself...and you don't even drive enough to go anywhere much less the White Clouds." The area needs a document based on negotiated compromise and some good accounting. I'd love to...but geez I could never make it to the meetings.

The Canadians have corridors through the Chilcotins that allow certain uses. Thank the Lord 'cause I want to vacation there. But convince both parties. Ack. No fun there.

Compromise. I really like that word.

Random thoughts from Al are now officially over. Pray for the delivery of my 29er. I am.
 
#10 ·
It takes a bunch of time and even more patience. A 3rd party, like the NPS, to help foster the compromise is best. One of the first things to do is to get both sides, MTB community and environmental groups that want full closure, to concede that they want to protect the area from A through Z parties. Next then is to have everyone agree that there will be differences, and then you work through what both sides are willing to live with while still achieving the primary goal. The last part is writing the agreements and working through the "how are we going to achieve" what we just compromised one.

It is really time consuming, and the person proctoring the meetings has to have a very strong, assertive, yet calming demeanor. The interested parties need to trust each other and remember that they are working together as a community to enjoy AND protect what they love.
 
#11 ·
Al, We tried having a third party get involved and had lined up REI a number of years ago, but the enviromental groups would not even show up with REI as a moderator so that ended that compromise session before it even began. I thought it was a great idea, but it got nowhere.
 
#12 ·
Bringing REI to the table is like bringing WalMart in to moderate a discussion on urban sprawl.

Bad call.

I don't have the answer but the 3rd party shouldn't have a dog in the fight and should be trusted by all parties to hold the money.
 
#13 ·
That is unfortunate..but honestly that, the moderator, is then your first hurdle. Who were the parties involved. I am curious who would be so unwilling to compromise. I am even more curious as to the reasons why.

It is really a painful process...developing that whole trust thing, but the pay off is really worth it.
 
#14 ·
The Blue Ribbon Coalition has slaughtered the single track in parts of South East Idaho by allowing and developing trrails for ATV's. I would hope that Mtn. Bikers will not side with them. Are there any other alternative groups(with #'s) who have a voice here? It doesn't sound like either side of the arguement is worth siding with. I have camped in the area for killer hike a bikes for the past ten years, and would give up my access if it means that ATV's will be allowed. Dirt bikers are fine, but the Blue Ribbon Coalition is not helping them. I wish they had a better group to represent them.
Ryon
 
#15 ·
A neighbor of mine is an associate at a well-placed environmental advocacy group in Boise. It is unfortunate but he's told me off the record that they do not trust mountain bikers because they feel they are in bed with motorized interests. They especially do not trust SWIMBA - mostly because of some op ed history that misrepresented SWIMBA's position (or lack thereof).

Whether it's true or not is irrelevant - it is the perception that is keeping them from showing up with any heart.
 
#16 ·
Irishbuddha said:
And it's not just ATVs. Each year the snowmobiles seem to be getting more powerful and it is harder and harder to find areas to backcountry ski that haven't been chewed up with high marks. If it was just motorcycles, I won't mind. If it were just motorcycles and snowmobiles I won't be happy but I wouldn't be disgusted like I am about the prospects of opening up the White Clouds to ATVs and the back door for the extractive industry.

If mountain bikers want to stand as one and work to include a swath from Fisher Creek to Warm Springs as biker access into the Wilderness, I would be all for it. But if it means holding hands with the Blue Ribbon Coalition and supporting ATV access and the end of the Wilderness initiative, well give me Wilderness.
i am a Blue Ribbon Coalition Member, and a pretty active one, and I am unaware of any proposal anywhere to increase atv access in the boulder-white clouds. We are simply trying to keep existing motorcycle access to grand prize gulch and 4th of july, which have been responsibly and sustainably used by motorcycles and mountain bikes for decades.

the Wilderness Jihad frequently uses the bogeyman of renegade ATV's to scare people and build support for extreme and unnecessary wilderness proposals, and the Boulder-Whiteclouds are a good example of such a proposal. The only reason that proposal even exists is to throw a bone to the extremists in hopes that they'll overlook the public land giveaways just to gain a few more of the virgins in heaven they apparently get for each acre of designated wilderness, regardless of whether it meets the qualifications for wilderness.

The BRC doesn't believe in universal ATV access, or opening existing non-motorized areas to ATV use. There are some places where they think individual trails should be widened, mostly to connect loop opportunities for ATV riders. I think that idea sucks, but i think it sucks less than wilderness designations that close trails that have longstanding motorized and/or mechanized use.
 
#17 ·
Visicypher said:
That is unfortunate..but honestly that, the moderator, is then your first hurdle. Who were the parties involved. I am curious who would be so unwilling to compromise. I am even more curious as to the reasons why.

It is really a painful process...developing that whole trust thing, but the pay off is really worth it.
Al, I think REI would have done an excellent moderator job since they have done it a couple of times in California and in Oregon.

We had tried to get people from the ICL and the Wilderness society to sit down and discuss options for the Boulder-Whiteclouds. At that time it would have been John McCarthy and two other people whose names escape me at the moment. Maybe Suki Molina or Rachael Winer.

I have thought about trying to get the groups toegther again.

On the whole trust issue I find this very ironic since they have been spreading a number of rumors among land owners about mountain bikers that are not true to try and win favor in meetings. When the mud starts flying neither side is truely innocent :nono:

Chris
 
#18 ·
Another view and some questions

Not everyone who mountain bikes is against wilderness. For some of us, protection of land from extractive industries, development, and other damage is a higher priority than our own selfish interests. There are many members of SWIMBA who would drop our memberships in a second if SWIMBA takes a stand against wilderness.

Is Mr. Cook still on the Board of the Blue Ribbon Coalition? Is he perhaps the one who wrote op-ed pieces against wilderness while he was president of SWIMBA? Did he build illegal trails and are we to thank him for this "hard work"? Why didn't they poll Blaine County, which is also adjacent to the Boulder-White Clouds? Were they afraid they might find overwhelming support for wilderness there, even among mountain bikers?
 
#19 ·
Too wordy! I warned you.

Boy kick the ant nest and look what happens. One topic at a time.
Do I think Idaho has rascist tendencies - dah! Just because Reverend Butler's compound is no more, the "Whities" of Idaho haven't gone away. And yes I have been to Atlanta - the City that names everything peach. The food was spectacular, the people friendly and the beer anything but peaches. I did find one brew house and had a marvelous evening chatting with the brew master and drinking every beer they had on tap.

The intent of my e-mail was to drive home the point that mountain bikers do themselves a disservice by letting organizations like the BRC represent their interests. The BRC's approach to the White Clouds is to just say no!
They do propose a new "Back Country" designation to protect areas with a "Wilderness" type setting. So what is a "Back Country Designation."

BACKCOUNTRY DESIGNATION
(http://sharetrails.org/backc.html)
"The BlueRibbon Coalition supports the establishment of Congressionally designated backcountry where motorized use can co-exist with mountain bicycles and other recreational uses as well as other management activities while still preserving the backcountry character of the landscape. One major attraction for OHV enthusiasts, and others, to public lands is the primitive, backcountry character of much of these lands. The BlueRibbon Coalition supports the preservation of this backcountry character, where it exists, and supports continued motorized access into these areas. The Forest Service planning process is a dynamic and transient process; therefore congressional designation is needed to preserve these areas."

Since they used the term OHV instead of motorcycles one is lead to believe the BRC, "supports the preservation of this back country character, where it exists and supports continued motorized access in these areas" which would include ATVs. If not, why not expressly say motorcycles. BRC is there to represent all of their constituents which includes ATVs. It would be naive to think the BRC isn't representing ATVs.

An interview by Jon Christenson aired on public TV on January 5, 2007 gives a better perspective of the ATV thoughts. I think the following excert from the dialogue shows where ATVers stand on the issue.

CHRISTENSEN: In addition to the motorized trails that loop through the wilderness area, the compromise bill sets up this special Boulder White Clouds management area-more than 500,000 acres encircling the wilderness-where existing motorized trails would remain open.

KING: And with this bill look at this map and you see, all these surrounding things are motorized trails. No matter where you are, you're gonna hear wing, wing, wing.

JONES: In my personal opinion, Idaho has enough wilderness areas.

CHRISTENSEN: ATV rider Bill Jones is president of the Idaho All Terrain Vehicle Association.

JONES: Idaho ATV Association Jones : When you make a wilderness area, that turns that area into a land of no use. The people then can't drive a vehicle into it to go enjoy it. They go to a, quote, trail had and then they hike.

CHRISTENSEN: The sound of this conflict-over motorized vehicles in wild places-has echoed through the wilderness debate from its beginning between the First and Second World Wars.

In the 1920s and 30s, thousands of miles of new roads were being built into the most beautiful and untouched places in the country-to encourage tourism in the newly created National Parks-and soon concerns began to grow that all those tourists might love these lands to death.

But it wasn't until 1964 that the Wilderness Act was signed into law by President Lyndon Johnson-eight years after it was first introduced. The law itself, is a compromise-it allows grazing to continue, and mining claims and the use of motorboats and airplanes are grandfathered in to many wilderness areas...

JONES: Want to go for a ride?

CHRISTENSEN: In the past 40 years, a new beast has appeared on the landscape-off road vehicles capable of reaching the most remote places.

These vehicles didn't exist when the original law was written. Today legislators trying to protect wilderness can't ignore them.

JONES: We started out five years ago with 18,000 ATVs in Idaho; now there's118,000 registered ATVs.

CHRISTENSEN: Jones's estimate doesn't even include the motorcycles, and snow mobiles whose owners also want to ride deep into the back country.

JONES: These people have gotta have a place to go play, Unless we provide a trail for 'em to ride, they're gonna go create their own trails. I'd rather have education than enforcement.

CHRISTENSEN: Although the bill tries to balance the interests of both wilderness supporters and opponents ... these riders aren't buying it. They don't want any trails into the Boulder White Clouds shut down.

JONES: We happen to like it outdoors. The greenies, as we call 'em hate to see us have fun.

CHRISTENSEN: Competing interests like these have kept this land in limbo for 30 years -with none of the land permanently protected as wilderness.

So we have Carol King that is uncompromising on the issue. We have the Blue Ribbon Coalition that is following Nancy Reagon's approach of just stay "No." And we have the ATV crowd that is growing fatter by the day in numbers. You also have Chris Cook claiming to represent mountain bikers through the Idaho Recreation something or another that really smacks of the Blue Ribbon Coalition.

So my question is, why would Congressman Mike Simpson or any of the conservation group want to work with Chris or any mountain biker? So far they conservationists and Simpson have been giving to the Mtn and haven't received much from the mountain bike community!

So what have the mountain bikers got'n out of the deal so far. Well if you look at the maps, we have kept Fisher Creek the area most heavily traveled by mountain bikers. The Big and Little Casino loop is still open and also includes Warms Springs Meadow and connects via Martin Creek. Big Boulder, Little Boulder including Frog Lake is still included. Off the Pole Creek road, Germania Creek is even a corridor dividing the Wilderness areas and open to both bikes and motorized use. But the motorized community is unwilling to compromise and wants Grand Prize Gulch (trail 112) just over the ridge from Germania Creek. See map 9
http://www.house.gov/simpson/ciedra_maps.shtml

So what is left on the table for bikers? The plan doesn't include Warm Springs to Robinson Bar and Ants to Born Lakes is off the table. Is Ants Basin really a bike ride or more of a hike you take your bike on? I know it is fun but is it really a ride? If you want to see Ants basin you can still ride into Warm Springs and hike up toward Born Lakes or leave the bike at home.

To me the only lose is Warm Springs. Had the mountain bike community got their crap together maybe we could have negotiated this one as a bike only route but hey we held hands with BRC and have no credibility. Yeh we still do but sometimes I can't stand waking by the ant pile and giving it just one more kick. I think as a group we started to gain some credibility with Federal Land Mangers with the Stack Rock issues. We still have along way to go with the conservation community.

So why do we need the conservation community. Because there is more Wilderness being proposed in Montana, Wyoming etc. and we need to show we can work together and not just say no and our word means something. The Boulder White Clouds is a perfect place to work together and develop a process of give and take that can be copied else where.

Since you suffered through this long e-mail, I will try and post some pictures of Fisher/Warm Springs/Martin to Boundry. Not one I would do again in that direction on my bike.
 
#20 ·
Is Mr. Cook still on the Board of the Blue Ribbon Coalition? Yes.

Is he perhaps the one who wrote op-ed pieces against wilderness while he was president of SWIMBA?
Yes, I never stated that those were the veiws of SWIMBA just personal veiws.

Did he build illegal trails and are we to thank him for this "hard work"?
I have never built an illegal trail.

Why didn't they poll Blaine County, which is also adjacent to the Boulder-White Clouds?
Congressmen Simpson claims to have local support in Custer County so the purpose of the poll was to guage the level of support in the county he claims he has the support of. All of the economic development money is going to custer and lemhi counties. CIEDRAs plan is to provide economic development in Custer and Lemhi County not Blaine.

Were they afraid they might find overwhelming support for wilderness there, even among mountain bikers?
I doubt you would find much support among mountain bikers.

Oh and we asked for warmsprings in the beginning...
 
#21 ·
trailhd said:
Not everyone who mountain bikes is against wilderness. For some of us, protection of land from extractive industries, development, and other damage is a higher priority than our own selfish interests. There are many members of SWIMBA who would drop our memberships in a second if SWIMBA takes a stand against wilderness.
As a National Recreation Area, isn't the Boulder-White Clouds already protected from from extractive industries, development, and other damage?

It seems to me that trading away land to be developed, in order to further protect land that is already protected, does nothing but encourage further growth in the area. I can't see a positive with the bill. I can see lots of new condos and trophy homes in the valley, and no access for mountain bikes in the hills. What's the upside?
 
#22 ·
Eric - The White Clouds are not an NRA. The Sawtooths are. Hence, SNRA, Sawtooth National Recreation Area.

As for SWIMBA, I think they are focusing on Tour de Fat and the trail construction in the Shafer Butte/Bogus area (i.e. things in SW Idaho), at the moment. I could be wrong. Y'all would have to ask Dave Thomas.
 
#23 ·
Visicypher said:
As for SWIMBA, I think they are focusing on Tour de Fat and the trail construction in the Shafer Butte/Bogus area (i.e. things in SW Idaho), at the moment. I could be wrong. Y'all would have to ask Dave Thomas.
The history at SWIMBA was that it recognized that taking a stand on the BWC would split the organization in half so it decided to not take a stand either way. The board meeting minutes bear this out.

This is why it has disturbed more that a few that Mr. Cook published an Op Ed piece in the Statesman advocating not designating BWC a wilderness - the by-line stated that he was SWIMBA president but did not state explicitly that the opinions were his own and not SWIMBAs. Hence the perception what that he was representing SWIMBA's position and hence the environmental stakeholders don't want to have anything to do with him.
 
#24 ·
Visicypher said:
Eric - The White Clouds are not an NRA. The Sawtooths are. Hence, SNRA, Sawtooth National Recreation Area.

As for SWIMBA, I think they are focusing on Tour de Fat and the trail construction in the Shafer Butte/Bogus area (i.e. things in SW Idaho), at the moment. I could be wrong. Y'all would have to ask Dave Thomas.
Al, The Whiteclouds are actually included in the SNRA. Look at a Sawtooth National Forest map and you will see, the SNRA boundry almost hits the east fork of the salmon.

Chris
 
#25 ·
TwistedCrank said:
The history at SWIMBA was that it recognized that taking a stand on the BWC would split the organization in half so it decided to not take a stand either way. The board meeting minutes bear this out.

This is why it has disturbed more that a few that Mr. Cook published an Op Ed piece in the Statesman advocating not designating BWC a wilderness - the by-line stated that he was SWIMBA president but did not state explicitly that the opinions were his own and not SWIMBAs. Hence the perception what that he was representing SWIMBA's position and hence the environmental stakeholders don't want to have anything to do with him.
Well this editorial was about four or five years ago and the editorial did not state that this was SWIMBAs position and it was an accident that it said swimba president under my name. Of course at the time there were other people writing in editorials that included under their name "swimba board member" and that they were opposed to BWC. I guess it is all a matter of how you want to look at the past.

Enviromental stakeholders are just using me as an excuse because in reality they have no interest in coming to the table. As demostrated by refusing to attend a session moderated by REI.
 
#26 ·
As far as ATVs go I will let my record speak for itself. I worked for 5 years out in the Owyhees to get ATVs banned from the trails in the Wilson Peak area to preserve them as singletrack. And I helped restore east side after the ATVs destruction. I have made countless calls to the FS about blocking ATV access on trails they are not allowed on.

There are no ATV trails in the whiteclouds that are not roads that you can drive a full size vehical on.

A lot of people own ATVs in this state and we are going to have some bad apples just like in any other sport.

Chris
 
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