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  1. #1
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    Yet another linkage for Derby to look at

    http://www.k9industries.com/Site/LA%20Link.html

    This is a new concept in the UK, the bike designed and built but data logged entirely from the outset apparently. The process from ground floor up not to try and to alter other bikes limitations but to try and start afresh or so the info says.
    What do you think?
    Thanks in advance

  2. #2
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    It looks like the Karpiel downhill bike design of the late '90's rather than DW-Link. This K9 bike looks very downhill oriented in suspension with such a high angle of the IC (where lines from the short links intersect).

    The very high IC indicates it has a very rearward axle path, which is more compliant smacking bump faces an maintaining momentum at higher speed than a closer to vertical path.

    But a rearward path is not so compliant for braking in bumps – but who cares for downhill speeds because the bike skips along the tops of bumps and you use your turning technique to slow the bike with as little drag of the brake as possible.

    This high IC design has more anti-squat pedaling effect geometry than the DW-Link Iron Horse Sunday downhill bike, or any other DW-Link. This is probably fine for downhill pedaling acceleration between bumps, but actually fights against bump compliance when pedaling. The constant anti-squat during compression as stated during travel would produce noticeable seated pedal feedback when climbing due to the rearward path and “chain stretch”, but I bet the anti-squat pedaling effect is really mildly digressive during compression lessening pedal feedback, also this bike wouldn’t be used much for climbing off smooth trail because of it’s weight.

  3. #3
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    Many thanks.
    Which out of all the copy, look a likes, is the closest linkage to the DW link?

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by dogvet
    Many thanks.
    Which out of all the copy, look a likes, is the closest linkage to the DW link?
    Of what I've seen only the BMC 4-Stroke models and all the Giant Maestro versions are obvious copies.

    Or maybe the BMC and Giant designers had no suspension bike industry exposure and suddenly had the exact same design idea within 5mm in measurement a year or two after the Iron Horse Hollowpoint with dw-Link was first sold to the public.

    Like the K9 there are now many attempting to produce a more efficient and transparent rear suspension action with many of the same attributes as dw-Link. Some may come close without infringing on the patented anti-squat rates, but to combine great braking modulation characteristics with even better pedaling, like the improved second generation dw-Link currently on the Ibis and Iron Horse bikes, will be difficult without infringing on the patents.

    I kind of think patents slow progress, but we still live among adversarial cultures, not soon to evolve. So we are all retarded in progress by the retarded cults of thieves rather than working out careful partnerships. In 17 years the designs will be free when the patents expire. But by then who knows what will prevail on the dirt and rocky trails we may still be allowed to pedal.

  5. #5
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    Quite a lot of people that have had the priviledge of riding the Ibis Mojo and the Iron Horse Mk 3 seem to feel the Mk3 does not "ride " as well as the Mojo, the suspension within the geometry of the Mk3 holding the bike back rather than allowing it to shine, their comments seem to indicate the Mk 3 does not quite have the "snap" or brilliance of the Mojo.

  6. #6
    TJT
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    I am by no means an expert (far from it!) but I agree. You cannot state that bike X will be better than bike Y just because of the linkage. Also I don't think you can say that two bikes will be the same because they share a particular design of suspension.

    I haven't ridden either, but the Mojo has certainly got much better reviews/reputation than the Iron Horse.

    There is far more to a bike than just a linkage. Stiffness in the right places, 'springiness' in the right places, geometry, etc.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by dogvet
    Quite a lot of people that have had the priviledge of riding the Ibis Mojo and the Iron Horse Mk 3 seem to feel the Mk3 does not "ride " as well as the Mojo, the suspension within the geometry of the Mk3 holding the bike back rather than allowing it to shine, their comments seem to indicate the Mk 3 does not quite have the "snap" or brilliance of the Mojo.
    Brilliant Carbon Fibre frame vs Aluminium

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by derby
    Of what I've seen only the BMC 4-Stroke models and all the Giant Maestro versions are obvious copies.

    Or maybe the BMC and Giant designers had no suspension bike industry exposure and suddenly had the exact same design idea within 5mm in measurement a year or two after the Iron Horse Hollowpoint with dw-Link was first sold to the public.

    Like the K9 there are now many attempting to produce a more efficient and transparent rear suspension action with many of the same attributes as dw-Link. Some may come close without infringing on the patented anti-squat rates, but to combine great braking modulation characteristics with even better pedaling, like the improved second generation dw-Link currently on the Ibis and Iron Horse bikes, will be difficult without infringing on the patents.

    I kind of think patents slow progress, but we still live among adversarial cultures, not soon to evolve. So we are all retarded in progress by the retarded cults of thieves rather than working out careful partnerships. In 17 years the designs will be free when the patents expire. But by then who knows what will prevail on the dirt and rocky trails we may still be allowed to pedal.
    Neither the BMC or the Maestro have the IC in front of the chainrings in the early part of the travel. The difference is more apparent on the longer travel designs especially the Sunday.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ridge Rider
    Neither the BMC or the Maestro have the IC in front of the chainrings in the early part of the travel. The difference is more apparent on the longer travel designs especially the Sunday.
    Correct, the Sunday and all the current produced dw-Links including the Mojo are significantly improved "second generation" dw-Link" design with the IC further forward.

    As I mentioned above BMC and Giant stole the design of the (first generation) dw-Link, produced by the Iron Horse Hollowpoint.

    But the first generation dw-Link as is the second best performing suspension design available for travel over 4 inches, only the current second generation dw-Link design is better. BMC and Giant are benefiting very much by the suspension design work of Dave Weagle.

    I'm sure the Giant and BMC management had no idea at the time they approved the production of their versions of dw-Link suspensions that their suspension engineers were not designing something proprietary, but rather stealing an established design with patents pending.

    Perhaps BMC and Giant management are honorable people and publicly apologize for the theft of the dw-Link suspension and place dw-Link stickers on their bikes. DW should receive some compensation for his work used on their bikes.
    Last edited by derby; 05-10-2007 at 11:24 AM.

  10. #10
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    Is it true that Giant moved the location of one of the pivots due to patent infringement on the Maestro design?

    How close in ride are the Giant Maestro to a DW link and where are the main differences between the two designs?
    "We're here for a good time not a long time"
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  11. #11
    _dw
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    Quote Originally Posted by dogvet
    Quite a lot of people that have had the priviledge of riding the Ibis Mojo and the Iron Horse Mk 3 seem to feel the Mk3 does not "ride " as well as the Mojo, the suspension within the geometry of the Mk3 holding the bike back rather than allowing it to shine, their comments seem to indicate the Mk 3 does not quite have the "snap" or brilliance of the Mojo.
    I've have actually not heard this at all really. Personally I have spent a good deal of time on both bikes, as well as designing the MKIII entrirely and obviously the suspension on both the MK and Mojo. I think that they both rip. There are trails and places where I prefer the MK (like the technical trail riding and drops of Lynn Woods and Vietnam) and places that I prefer my Mojo (anything with fast corners and little features to double up) True both bikes are designed with different goals in mind, slightly different dw-squat curves, and different leverage rate progressions to work with different shocks, but in my experience riders rave about both bikes. The MK is designed a sit and pedal it out steeper geometry 5" bike with more end travel damping ramp (although it has slacked out at this point), whereas the mojo has a livelier geometry set and more linear suspension.

    Different strokes for different folks (or zip codes maybe)

    That's my take.

    Dave
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by dogvet
    Quite a lot of people that have had the priviledge of riding the Ibis Mojo and the Iron Horse Mk 3 seem to feel the Mk3 does not "ride " as well as the Mojo, the suspension within the geometry of the Mk3 holding the bike back rather than allowing it to shine, their comments seem to indicate the Mk 3 does not quite have the "snap" or brilliance of the Mojo.
    Actually very few people have ridden both. You pretty much have to buy a Mojo to ride one. MKiii's are only available from Performance Bikes for parking lot demos. I think I'm among a very few who have ridden both bikes off pavement. I demoed the '06 MKiii before buying an '06 Mojo.

    The '06 MKiii rides very well. I just like more forgiving handling than the '06 has. It's apparently designed to rail dirt corners and excels at racing Duel Solemn and Mountain Cross type dirt only surface. But the steering geometry was too steep in the ’06 model, especially for larger high weight centered riders like me, for good confidence in large rocky trail conditions.

    Iron Horse slacked out the handling geometry of the MKiii for the '07 model to nearly match the Mojo’s frame geometry. If that had happened last summer I'm certain I would be on the more AM oriented MKiii now and blissfully unaware of the magical-like balance and wide range of use possible with the Mojo.

    I have no regrets buying the Mojo. It’s the standout best XC and lighter duty AM trail bike in the world, by far.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul5s
    Is it true that Giant moved the location of one of the pivots due to patent infringement on the Maestro design?

    How close in ride are the Giant Maestro to a DW link and where are the main differences between the two designs?
    I haven't heard that Giant ever changed the Maestro suspension.

    The difference of the ’03 Iron Horse Hollowpoint and ’05 first year to current Giant Trance would be in the frame geometry for handling. The suspension ride difference would be in the quality of shocks since the suspension geometry is virtually identical.

    The second generation dw-Link used by the Mojo and IH since '05 brakes much better and pedals at least as excellent as the 1st generation IH Hollowpoint which Giant copied to produce the Maestro suspension.

  14. #14
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    What difference would I notice between the Horst link (Specialized 05 Expert) I am riding now, and a DW Link?

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by ADIDAS
    What difference would I notice between the Horst link (Specialized 05 Expert) I am riding now, and a DW Link?
    Besides any fit differences, the Mojo pedals with noticeably easier acceleration on smooth and rough surface than the FSR's no matter how much travel or platform damping is used with the FSR. With a very bump compliant no platform shock the Mojo climbs with virtually no squat or bob unlike the FSR would without a firm platform shock.

    The pedal feedback is about the same in bumps, none that an oversensitive human could feel.

    With the same fit over the wheels, braking stability and traction is about the same, as good as it gets for loose and bumpy trail traction.

    Isn't the '05 Stumpjumper Expert 4 inch travel? The added travel and stable handling balance of the Mojo makes maintaining momentum when climbing and pedaling in rough easier. Also braking in bumps with the longer travel optimized fully active floating brake dw_link suspension is more compliant than shorter travel FSR. FSR and other more classic Horst links are the only other designs that brake as well balanced and with as high traction as dw_link with the same travel.

    You will ride faster and brake deeper (if you want to) on your Mojo than you ever did with the Stumpjumper FSR.

    Also it is easier to ride slowly through bumps. The lack of pedal any kickback with superbly balanced stability and most efficient pedaling does not require pushing higher speeds through rough sections to maintain momentum like other designs with as much travel or less.

    You will be more amazed with every ride on your Mojo. The longer you wait to get one the less you will get to ride it. So might as well order one today!

  16. #16
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    derby,

    My Stumpjumper expert does like you say. Good going down with no kickback, has a fair amount of squat when climbing, and I cannot climb standing because of bob. Travel is 120 rear and 130 front.

    Overall I have been pretty happy with it, but am looking forward to the next upgrade.

    The feedback is great, because only virtual test rides are available.

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