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  1. #1
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    Want to see aluminum broken frames?

    Hi dears,

    there has been a couple of posts in the recent past about some Mojo frame problems: one (and hairline crack) was after a nasty crash and the other actually looked like paint cracks.

    No matter if those are small or big problems I am under the impression that there is still some apprehension about carbon fiber. Just to keep things in perspective and avoid to freak out if one gets a little chip of paint off look below at a few photos of broken aluminum frames. The photos are from the Turner forum. They are a Highline, RFX, 5-spot, Flux and XCE. Notice how all the cracks originate around welds and notice how massive they are: These are VERY broken frames!!!

    This is not to put down aluminum bikes from a single brand (just do a search on Ellsworth if you want to see more broken stuff) but just to point out that aluminum bikes are quite far from being bombproof. It can easily happen that you buy a supposedly "top-of-the-line" aluminum frame and end up with ...

    Cheers!
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    Last edited by Davide; 08-14-2007 at 09:01 AM.

  2. #2
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    In a previous life I was testing aluminum full suspension frames prior to production and managed to crack 6 of one model before release. It delayed things quite a lot changing the tubing and construction details. I am not a jumper at all, but pedal hard on occasion and would try to hurt the frames by riding down the railroad ties and sprinting hard out of the saddle etc.
    I got about 7500 miles on my test Mojo doing that sort of thing without any drama. Just two rear shocks and a wasted rear wheel. Oh, and jacked up shoulders.

    H

  3. #3
    endorphin addict
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    If that ain't a testimony, I'm not sure what is.

    Rock on....


  4. #4
    Trail Rider
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    I agree with you...

    But what I'm apprehensive about is that scuffle in the granite rocks after a fall where the rear end is ruined, when an aluminum rear end might have a scratch, but not get ruined. A couple hundred bucks for the rear end eases the pain though. I've taken a fall, and my Mojo survived without a scratch.
    [size=4]Don[/size]

  5. #5
    Mojo0115
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    it most definitely sucks to break a bike you love but so far I have crashed my mojo plenty of times and gone of the bars a few times in some really rocky terrain and the frame is holding up really well.

    Things break, that is part of the attraction of the pursuit. I just hope that it continues to be my toys that break rather than me.

  6. #6
    Compulsive Bike Builder
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    My own experience

    I have had a few carbon or carbon/aluminum bikes and the carbon has never been a problem, but aluminum has. I must make the disclaimer that calling them carbon is a popular misnomer that I will go with here. The more general correct name is composites. Refering to all aluminum as "alloy" another popular misnomer, but I will stick with calling it aluminum.

    My Trek Y-22 had a flexy aluminum rear triangle, but the carbon "Y" part was no problem. My Noleen Crosslink fork/Proflex 857 had carbon reinforced legs and a carbon trailing arm. In a crash, I messed up the aluminum linkages on the Crosslink, but the carbon reinforced legs were just fine. My Raven II and Carbon Lefty were solid parts, but they did have a few issues and recalls overall.

    Come to think of it, my CAAD5 aluminum frame cracked (it was replaced with an absolute beauty), and my old steel KHS Montana Grande developed two creases in the paint in the top tobe and down tube behind the headtube, if you know what that means.

    Scratching carbon is no worse than scratching aluminum. If you scratch, crimp, or crash an aluminum component, you should replace it just as you would a carbon one. You should be just as concerened with a deep scratch or nicks all over the surface of aluminum as you are with carbon. All of this taping of Mojos is interesting. Aluminum bikes could benefit just as much from the same protection.

    All of this is relative to the quality of the material. Cheap aluminum and cheap carbon are out there and that makes a difference, too.

    But aluminum is a more widely used material, so there is more expertise in aluminum fabrication, so it is easier to get good quality aluminum construction, even though carbon may be the better material for a given application. Aluminum is relatively close to the peak of its potential as a material. Carbon has a long way to go. There will be much more innovation with composites (not just carbon!) in our lifetime than with aluminum.

    And there is no getting around the fact that carbon fiber failure modes can give little warning and go straight to complete failure. I think this can be addressed in the long run, too. The topic is very complicated and interesting. Airframe manufacturers are working on ways to tell when metal is stressed before it breaks with things like fiber optics embedded in the metal. Such things might be easier with composites. And while that sounds crazy for a bike right now, that is ok. The idea the bikes might one day use chromoly steel, aircraft grade aluminum, are composite materials all at one time seemed like preposterous ideas.
    Disclaimer: ComCycle USA

  7. #7
    _dw
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    Quote Originally Posted by hanssc
    riding down the railroad ties and sprinting hard out of the saddle etc.
    I love it, I have a great picture in my head of you sprinting the tracks
    dw★link
    Split Pivot
    @daveweagle -Twitter

  8. #8
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    I have ridden carbon road and mountain bikes for years with few problems with failure no more than alum and ti bikes.
    That said; I will not flame anyone for telling it when it really happens on the forum.
    I realize most manufactures aren't thrilled about it, but it is important for consumers as bikes always push the limits of light weight vs durablity. I know we will never see real statistics on failures from the manufacturers so really the forums are all we have to keep it as up front as possible without panic. Most of these forum users tend to be pretty savy tech mtb consumers. Except me of course.
    That said, I find it quite refreshing that a manufacturer will interact so much on forums as I have seen the Ibis crew do. I think the only other manu I have only do that but not as much is Tony at Ellsworth. I think they are really going the extra mile to establish their new brand. I hope it continues for many years after they have grown.
    Last edited by gsierraclub; 08-18-2007 at 06:19 AM.

  9. #9
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    This post is a lovely example of Davide's trolling, ever since he got a Turner, continuing to past the end of his ownership.

    This is obviously a post made out of a vendetta. I am not posting because I'm a Turner owner, but he's obviously throwing one company under the bus to pump up another, a tactic I'm sure Ibis doesn't care to deal with. If you're a happy customer, then by all means, post about it. If you're going to slander another company to give your team some points, you're not going to get any from your manufacturer, especially when you have not posted the facts around the pictures you have posted, such as the Highline stays that Turner has recalled and he actively goes around the forums to seek out the owners, including second hand ones, to give them the new stays. THe old ones missed heat treatment and he addressed it immediately within a short timeframe. You also didn't mention the broken stays someone suffered when they weren't changed. The failure damaged the owner's PUSHed DHX. The said owner called Turner, he sent out the new stays, then Turner called PUSH to make a new show to send out to the owner. One phone call.

    The second was a showbike proto, which had the seat tube bored slightly off-center. Turner got wind of it and replaced the customer's bike and honestly explained what happened, once again.

    The remainder looks to be one of the unfortunate mishaps that happened over years of the Turner forum's postings, not "epidemic proportions during a short time span" as Davide is trying to imply. Incidentally, he never broke his frame, nor did he sell his frame exposing his conscience recognizing it as a ticking timebomb, as he implies here. Luckily, Turner is renowned to be extraordinarily fair to his customers. Maybe a line from Boutique Bikes' Fake News section would illustrate Turner's commitment to his customers through parody:
    http://www.boutiquebikes.com/index.p...d=21&Itemid=57

  10. #10
    flow where ever you go
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    I don't see it...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    This post is a lovely example of Davide's trolling, ever since he got a Turner, continuing to past the end of his ownership.

    This is obviously a post made out of a vendetta. .....
    He posted existing pictures and the text has little attitude or information that is promoting or slandering in my view. Just his version of a reality check. Why worry about carbon exclusively when all bike materials can break? It doesn't help me feel better or worse but I guess it does for others. On the other hand, there are certain frames in both carbon and aluminum I would think twice before buying because of how many people have broken them.

    ___________

    [SIZE="3"]my wife says, "when you point a finger, four are pointing back".[/SIZE]

    "I must not be crazy because I'm seriously questioning my sanity"

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by noshortcuts
    He posted existing pictures and the text has little attitude or information that is promoting or slandering in my view. Just his version of a reality check. Why worry about carbon exclusively when all bike materials can break? It doesn't help me feel better or worse but I guess it does for others. On the other hand, there are certain frames in both carbon and aluminum I would think twice before buying because of how many people have broken them.

    ___________

    [SIZE="3"]my wife says, "when you point a finger, four are pointing back".[/SIZE]
    The reality check has been in Davide's post history, going back years. There is no interpretation here and a simple fact he selected ONLY Turner frames.

    He needs to move on and enjoy his Ibis instead of constantly defending why he rides one over [specifically] a Turner. It's only going to bring bad vibes over to your forum and pull Ibis down with him. You can continue to defend a fellow rider, or face the reality that the seeds for your forum being ruined have been planted, along with a negative view of Ibis.

    I can guarantee Ibis has better things to do than read about shitstorms their customers are creating on the internet in their name. They are making a great effort of connecting with you guys and owning up to troubles, while providing excellent CS, as it appears. You guys don't want to ruin this connection with them. It's very difficult for any manufacturer to come out to these forums, and even more so when they're in the middle of a shitstorm between users flaming other companies and using everything they say against them. Again, I can guarantee Ibis wants no part of this.

  12. #12
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    Well I dont really care about his history, but anyway, it proves that for people who says they dont buy carbon because it breaks easier then aluminium bikes, reality check, aluminium bikes also breaks. I dont own a carbon bike yet, but if Im going to own a carbon bike, I make sure that the company has a good warranty for it, Trek and Ibis got my attention so far, not sure bout Giant and Specialized. Can someone tell me if Specialized carbon frames are lifetime crash warranty or a few years limited warranty?

  13. #13
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    No one said Al doesn't break. The real reality check is that ALL bike materials break, from steel, Al, Carbon, and even Ti. We put these materials through so much and sometimes demand too much, in terms of lifespan and durability. We push these materials as far as we can go, sometimes further than the designer's intent in an effort to get lightweight equipment.

    Every material has good and bad and it boils down to individual preference based on riding style, terrain, and past experience. None of these will align 100%.

  14. #14
    www.derbyrims.com
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    Davide isn't dis’ing Turner bikes at all

    Dave Turner established and has long maintained the quality standard for high-end mountain bike customer service which very few bike manufacturers come close to. Davide’s posting was not an issue of customer service. Not one of the pictures even showed the Turner logo. Davide was careful to site the source of the facts he presented, which happed to be the Turner forum.

    Ibis has shown at least the equal of Turner’s over-the-top personal care and quick level of customer service.

    Davide didn’t come across as dis’ing Turner bikes at all. He was clearly putting the hairline surface and paint cracks posted as “Broken” or “Craked” Mojo’s in some perspective of REAL breaks and failures shown in the pictures.

    Davide happens to have a collection of Turner failures to show as examples, which on first impression would seem kind of weird. But I’m guessing he is pretty normal by getting over defensive after he had posted his personal experiences and opinions on the Turner forum that was contrary to a few cowardly abusive flamer types residing at the Turner forum.

    The recent “Broke my Mojo today” and “Cracked Mojo” threads have very misleading titles.

    Neither post turned out to be true. Both are surface finish cracks, not even remotely close to actual broken or cracked frame failures.

    The reality check Davide provides was very timely and vividly true to offset any damage these mistaken postings might be to prospecting potential buyers to the superb reliability of the Mojo when wrecked, and the rarely matched customer service to warrantee and crash replacement.

  15. #15
    flow where ever you go
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    The reality check has been in Davide's post history, going back years. There is no interpretation here and a simple fact he selected ONLY Turner frames.

    He needs to move on and enjoy his Ibis instead of constantly defending why he rides one over [specifically] a Turner. It's only going to bring bad vibes over to your forum and pull Ibis down with him. You can continue to defend a fellow rider, or face the reality that the seeds for your forum being ruined have been planted, along with a negative view of Ibis.

    I can guarantee Ibis has better things to do than read about shitstorms their customers are creating on the internet in their name. They are making a great effort of connecting with you guys and owning up to troubles, while providing excellent CS, as it appears. You guys don't want to ruin this connection with them. It's very difficult for any manufacturer to come out to these forums, and even more so when they're in the middle of a shitstorm between users flaming other companies and using everything they say against them. Again, I can guarantee Ibis wants no part of this.
    Ok, we get it. You care about Davide's "history". As for the rest of us in the Ibis forum, we don't seem to care. You might try your own advice and "move on and enjoy" your ride rather than flaming and worrying about other posters. Now my four fingers are pointing back. No one is perfect. Carry on.

    "I must not be crazy because I'm seriously questioning my sanity"

  16. #16
    Knomer
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    This is pretty funny. 2 groups defending frame materials as if they invented it. Maybe you guys should build light sabers out of your material of choice and see who wins!

  17. #17
    Too Much Fun
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    DB calls it...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dusty Bottoms
    This is pretty funny. 2 groups defending frame materials as if they invented it. Maybe you guys should build light sabers out of your material of choice and see who wins!
    Tru DAT. This thread immediately pegged my ghey-dar to the redline.

    Its the FEEL GOOD THREAD OF THE YEAR!


    Two frame materials that found WUV.
    - -benja- -

  18. #18
    mojo mofo
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    No single material is suitable for all uses.

    Bickering aside, I was wondering when someone would address the potential backlash of those thread titles. But if anyone makes up their mind on a high end mtb form reading only those two threads then they would probably just be waiting to report every scratch as a catastrophic failure anyway. Who needs the stress?

    I'm sure Turner makes an awesome bike, so does Ibis. There will always be failures and crashes because we're not talking about business card holders or light sabers.

  19. #19
    Too Much Fun
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    Every frame material is the Best In The World

    Quote Originally Posted by talkshow-host
    because we're not talking about business card holders or light sabers.
    ...Not so fast. Word on the street is that the '08 Mojo will actually have solid gold light sabers inside the frame. You can't see them, but they are there...
    - -benja- -

  20. #20
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    Well I must agree that recently they have been many posted threads about i broke my mojo frame which is actually just the painting/coating problem

  21. #21
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    Lets set the record straight

    In the 'broke my Mojo thread', the guy went over the bars and broke his
    chainstay. Could have happened on an al bike also. The other 2 threads were about
    cracks in the paint or composite. At least one of those was probably the composite, but
    Ibis is an awesomely cool company and I wouldnt worry about it too much if I were
    considering a Mojo. The seatpost insert problem has happened on enough frames that it
    may be a design issue that, while I'm sure it will be fixed for '08, you can fix yourself
    without a huge amount of hassle.
    While carbon is perhaps a bit more prone to small cracks than al because of its reduced ductility, the process of making carbon frames has been much improved, so this should not be the kind of issue it might have been in the past. Nonetheless, I would still want to keep those parts of the frame thast are most exposed to trail litter well protected, as I do on my al frame, since on those sections my main worry with al is scratches, but with carbon it would be a necessity to protect it well if you didnt want to end up with little dings and dents on the bottom facing parts of your frame.

  22. #22
    You know my steez...
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    Most excellent post

    Quote Originally Posted by derby
    .....

    Ibis has shown at least the equal of Turner’s over-the-top personal care and quick level of customer service.

    Davide didn’t come across as dis’ing Turner bikes at all. He was clearly putting the hairline surface and paint cracks posted as “Broken” or “Craked” Mojo’s in some perspective of REAL breaks and failures shown in the pictures......


    The recent “Broke my Mojo today” and “Cracked Mojo” threads have very misleading titles.

    Neither post turned out to be true. Both are surface finish cracks, not even remotely close to actual broken or cracked frame failures........

    .
    I don't have personal experience with Turner CS, but Ibis CS is the best I've ever encountered.

    “Broke my Mojo today” and “Cracked Mojo” are almost like "shock and awe" descriptions for situations that are not nearly as dire as the title of the post makes it seem. Davide's point is that EVERYTHING breaks! When my friend snapped his Blur LT in HALF, it didn't give him some kind of warning like some posters have said aluminum will. He did get a helicopter ride though!

    And what about guys like me with bikes made from carbon fiber AND aluminum??? (Felt F55 road bike) I must be taking a huge risk!!!!!!!
    I'm unique, just like everyone else....

  23. #23
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    I'm old school around here and a newbie at the same time. I owned and raced two OCLV frames, broke one of them. Broke an Al frame, wore out a steel frame. Everything wears out or breaks if you ride hard.

    End of the day, I crave CF. Love the feel, the ability to damp vibrations and the effortless feeling of 'air'.

    The other day I came off the trail and an obnoxious jarhead (who apparently owns a shop here in town) questioned my choice of riding such a fragile frame on the most technical, rocky trail in my area. Said it was risky and that I was 'braver' than him (translation, I was obviously ignorant).

    I don't have the patience to address people like this. So, just being an asshat, I responded with "if I break it I'll just buy another". That quickly ended the exchange.

    Anyway, these mojos are amazing rides, and the crew at Ibis appear to me to be the real deal. Good enough for me. . .

    Life's short. Enjoy the ride, mang.

  24. #24
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    Ops ... steel now

    ... just to go the extra mile and put steel construction into perspective (titanium will be next) one can see below what can happen when you ride a steel frame too hard

    ... and just to be ecumenical I add a Trek, Rocky Mountain and an Ellsworth

    PS Just to clarify (mostly because the usual creeps from the Turner forum are showing up completely missing the point)... I posted Turners' photos because I remembered the broken 5-spots episodes reported when I owned one. I did a quick search to dig them out but found many other episodes involving different Turner frames. A few examples were appropriate to show how aluminum frames ranging from 4" to 7" can fail catastrophically
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    Last edited by Davide; 08-20-2007 at 11:05 AM.

  25. #25
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    Like I said, for me, the most important factor in owning a carbon bike is owning it from a company that has good CS. Trek has a lifetime warranty which is good enough for me and Ibis has excellent service, they seem to reply to all of the post that are related to their frames cracking/breaking/paint peeling off. Anyone can tell me bout Specialized warranty? is it 3 years of lifetime? And how bout Giant's too if you guys dont mind

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