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  1. #1
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    Want to see aluminum broken frames?

    Hi dears,

    there has been a couple of posts in the recent past about some Mojo frame problems: one (and hairline crack) was after a nasty crash and the other actually looked like paint cracks.

    No matter if those are small or big problems I am under the impression that there is still some apprehension about carbon fiber. Just to keep things in perspective and avoid to freak out if one gets a little chip of paint off look below at a few photos of broken aluminum frames. The photos are from the Turner forum. They are a Highline, RFX, 5-spot, Flux and XCE. Notice how all the cracks originate around welds and notice how massive they are: These are VERY broken frames!!!

    This is not to put down aluminum bikes from a single brand (just do a search on Ellsworth if you want to see more broken stuff) but just to point out that aluminum bikes are quite far from being bombproof. It can easily happen that you buy a supposedly "top-of-the-line" aluminum frame and end up with ...

    Cheers!
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Davide; 08-14-2007 at 08:01 AM.

  2. #2
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    In a previous life I was testing aluminum full suspension frames prior to production and managed to crack 6 of one model before release. It delayed things quite a lot changing the tubing and construction details. I am not a jumper at all, but pedal hard on occasion and would try to hurt the frames by riding down the railroad ties and sprinting hard out of the saddle etc.
    I got about 7500 miles on my test Mojo doing that sort of thing without any drama. Just two rear shocks and a wasted rear wheel. Oh, and jacked up shoulders.

    H

  3. #3
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    If that ain't a testimony, I'm not sure what is.

    Rock on....


  4. #4
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    I agree with you...

    But what I'm apprehensive about is that scuffle in the granite rocks after a fall where the rear end is ruined, when an aluminum rear end might have a scratch, but not get ruined. A couple hundred bucks for the rear end eases the pain though. I've taken a fall, and my Mojo survived without a scratch.
    Don

  5. #5
    Mojo0115
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    it most definitely sucks to break a bike you love but <knock on wood> so far I have crashed my mojo plenty of times and gone of the bars a few times in some really rocky terrain and the frame is holding up really well. <knock on wood once more>

    Things break, that is part of the attraction of the pursuit. I just hope that it continues to be my toys that break rather than me.

  6. #6
    Compulsive Bike Builder
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    My own experience

    I have had a few carbon or carbon/aluminum bikes and the carbon has never been a problem, but aluminum has. I must make the disclaimer that calling them carbon is a popular misnomer that I will go with here. The more general correct name is composites. Refering to all aluminum as "alloy" another popular misnomer, but I will stick with calling it aluminum.

    My Trek Y-22 had a flexy aluminum rear triangle, but the carbon "Y" part was no problem. My Noleen Crosslink fork/Proflex 857 had carbon reinforced legs and a carbon trailing arm. In a crash, I messed up the aluminum linkages on the Crosslink, but the carbon reinforced legs were just fine. My Raven II and Carbon Lefty were solid parts, but they did have a few issues and recalls overall.

    Come to think of it, my CAAD5 aluminum frame cracked (it was replaced with an absolute beauty), and my old steel KHS Montana Grande developed two creases in the paint in the top tobe and down tube behind the headtube, if you know what that means.

    Scratching carbon is no worse than scratching aluminum. If you scratch, crimp, or crash an aluminum component, you should replace it just as you would a carbon one. You should be just as concerened with a deep scratch or nicks all over the surface of aluminum as you are with carbon. All of this taping of Mojos is interesting. Aluminum bikes could benefit just as much from the same protection.

    All of this is relative to the quality of the material. Cheap aluminum and cheap carbon are out there and that makes a difference, too.

    But aluminum is a more widely used material, so there is more expertise in aluminum fabrication, so it is easier to get good quality aluminum construction, even though carbon may be the better material for a given application. Aluminum is relatively close to the peak of its potential as a material. Carbon has a long way to go. There will be much more innovation with composites (not just carbon!) in our lifetime than with aluminum.

    And there is no getting around the fact that carbon fiber failure modes can give little warning and go straight to complete failure. I think this can be addressed in the long run, too. The topic is very complicated and interesting. Airframe manufacturers are working on ways to tell when metal is stressed before it breaks with things like fiber optics embedded in the metal. Such things might be easier with composites. And while that sounds crazy for a bike right now, that is ok. The idea the bikes might one day use chromoly steel, aircraft grade aluminum, are composite materials all at one time seemed like preposterous ideas.
    <knock on="" wood=""><knock on="" wood="" once="" more=""> </knock></knock>
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  7. #7
    _dw
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    Quote Originally Posted by hanssc
    riding down the railroad ties and sprinting hard out of the saddle etc.
    I love it, I have a great picture in my head of you sprinting the tracks
    dw★link
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  8. #8
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    I have ridden carbon road and mountain bikes for years with few problems with failure no more than alum and ti bikes.
    That said; I will not flame anyone for telling it when it really happens on the forum.
    I realize most manufactures aren't thrilled about it, but it is important for consumers as bikes always push the limits of light weight vs durablity. I know we will never see real statistics on failures from the manufacturers so really the forums are all we have to keep it as up front as possible without panic. Most of these forum users tend to be pretty savy tech mtb consumers. Except me of course.
    That said, I find it quite refreshing that a manufacturer will interact so much on forums as I have seen the Ibis crew do. I think the only other manu I have only do that but not as much is Tony at Ellsworth. I think they are really going the extra mile to establish their new brand. I hope it continues for many years after they have grown.
    Last edited by gsierraclub; 08-18-2007 at 05:19 AM.

  9. #9
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    This post is a lovely example of Davide's trolling, ever since he got a Turner, continuing to past the end of his ownership.

    This is obviously a post made out of a vendetta. I am not posting because I'm a Turner owner, but he's obviously throwing one company under the bus to pump up another, a tactic I'm sure Ibis doesn't care to deal with. If you're a happy customer, then by all means, post about it. If you're going to slander another company to give your team some points, you're not going to get any from your manufacturer, especially when you have not posted the facts around the pictures you have posted, such as the Highline stays that Turner has recalled and he actively goes around the forums to seek out the owners, including second hand ones, to give them the new stays. THe old ones missed heat treatment and he addressed it immediately within a short timeframe. You also didn't mention the broken stays someone suffered when they weren't changed. The failure damaged the owner's PUSHed DHX. The said owner called Turner, he sent out the new stays, then Turner called PUSH to make a new show to send out to the owner. One phone call.

    The second was a showbike proto, which had the seat tube bored slightly off-center. Turner got wind of it and replaced the customer's bike and honestly explained what happened, once again.

    The remainder looks to be one of the unfortunate mishaps that happened over years of the Turner forum's postings, not "epidemic proportions during a short time span" as Davide is trying to imply. Incidentally, he never broke his frame, nor did he sell his frame exposing his conscience recognizing it as a ticking timebomb, as he implies here. Luckily, Turner is renowned to be extraordinarily fair to his customers. Maybe a line from Boutique Bikes' Fake News section would illustrate Turner's commitment to his customers through parody:
    http://www.boutiquebikes.com/index.p...d=21&Itemid=57

  10. #10
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    I don't see it...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    This post is a lovely example of Davide's trolling, ever since he got a Turner, continuing to past the end of his ownership.

    This is obviously a post made out of a vendetta. .....
    He posted existing pictures and the text has little attitude or information that is promoting or slandering in my view. Just his version of a reality check. Why worry about carbon exclusively when all bike materials can break? It doesn't help me feel better or worse but I guess it does for others. On the other hand, there are certain frames in both carbon and aluminum I would think twice before buying because of how many people have broken them.

    ___________

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    "I must not be crazy because I'm seriously questioning my sanity"

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by noshortcuts
    He posted existing pictures and the text has little attitude or information that is promoting or slandering in my view. Just his version of a reality check. Why worry about carbon exclusively when all bike materials can break? It doesn't help me feel better or worse but I guess it does for others. On the other hand, there are certain frames in both carbon and aluminum I would think twice before buying because of how many people have broken them.

    ___________

    my wife says, "when you point a finger, four are pointing back".
    The reality check has been in Davide's post history, going back years. There is no interpretation here and a simple fact he selected ONLY Turner frames.

    He needs to move on and enjoy his Ibis instead of constantly defending why he rides one over [specifically] a Turner. It's only going to bring bad vibes over to your forum and pull Ibis down with him. You can continue to defend a fellow rider, or face the reality that the seeds for your forum being ruined have been planted, along with a negative view of Ibis.

    I can guarantee Ibis has better things to do than read about ****storms their customers are creating on the internet in their name. They are making a great effort of connecting with you guys and owning up to troubles, while providing excellent CS, as it appears. You guys don't want to ruin this connection with them. It's very difficult for any manufacturer to come out to these forums, and even more so when they're in the middle of a ****storm between users flaming other companies and using everything they say against them. Again, I can guarantee Ibis wants no part of this.

  12. #12
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    Well I dont really care about his history, but anyway, it proves that for people who says they dont buy carbon because it breaks easier then aluminium bikes, reality check, aluminium bikes also breaks. I dont own a carbon bike yet, but if Im going to own a carbon bike, I make sure that the company has a good warranty for it, Trek and Ibis got my attention so far, not sure bout Giant and Specialized. Can someone tell me if Specialized carbon frames are lifetime crash warranty or a few years limited warranty?

  13. #13
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    No one said Al doesn't break. The real reality check is that ALL bike materials break, from steel, Al, Carbon, and even Ti. We put these materials through so much and sometimes demand too much, in terms of lifespan and durability. We push these materials as far as we can go, sometimes further than the designer's intent in an effort to get lightweight equipment.

    Every material has good and bad and it boils down to individual preference based on riding style, terrain, and past experience. None of these will align 100%.

  14. #14
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    Davide isn't dis’ing Turner bikes at all

    Dave Turner established and has long maintained the quality standard for high-end mountain bike customer service which very few bike manufacturers come close to. Davide’s posting was not an issue of customer service. Not one of the pictures even showed the Turner logo. Davide was careful to site the source of the facts he presented, which happed to be the Turner forum.

    Ibis has shown at least the equal of Turner’s over-the-top personal care and quick level of customer service.

    Davide didn’t come across as dis’ing Turner bikes at all. He was clearly putting the hairline surface and paint cracks posted as “Broken” or “Craked” Mojo’s in some perspective of REAL breaks and failures shown in the pictures.

    Davide happens to have a collection of Turner failures to show as examples, which on first impression would seem kind of weird. But I’m guessing he is pretty normal by getting over defensive after he had posted his personal experiences and opinions on the Turner forum that was contrary to a few cowardly abusive flamer types residing at the Turner forum.

    The recent “Broke my Mojo today” and “Cracked Mojo” threads have very misleading titles.

    Neither post turned out to be true. Both are surface finish cracks, not even remotely close to actual broken or cracked frame failures.

    The reality check Davide provides was very timely and vividly true to offset any damage these mistaken postings might be to prospecting potential buyers to the superb reliability of the Mojo when wrecked, and the rarely matched customer service to warrantee and crash replacement.

  15. #15
    flow where ever you go
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    The reality check has been in Davide's post history, going back years. There is no interpretation here and a simple fact he selected ONLY Turner frames.

    He needs to move on and enjoy his Ibis instead of constantly defending why he rides one over [specifically] a Turner. It's only going to bring bad vibes over to your forum and pull Ibis down with him. You can continue to defend a fellow rider, or face the reality that the seeds for your forum being ruined have been planted, along with a negative view of Ibis.

    I can guarantee Ibis has better things to do than read about ****storms their customers are creating on the internet in their name. They are making a great effort of connecting with you guys and owning up to troubles, while providing excellent CS, as it appears. You guys don't want to ruin this connection with them. It's very difficult for any manufacturer to come out to these forums, and even more so when they're in the middle of a ****storm between users flaming other companies and using everything they say against them. Again, I can guarantee Ibis wants no part of this.
    Ok, we get it. You care about Davide's "history". As for the rest of us in the Ibis forum, we don't seem to care. You might try your own advice and "move on and enjoy" your ride rather than flaming and worrying about other posters. Now my four fingers are pointing back. No one is perfect. Carry on.

    "I must not be crazy because I'm seriously questioning my sanity"

  16. #16
    Knomer
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    This is pretty funny. 2 groups defending frame materials as if they invented it. Maybe you guys should build light sabers out of your material of choice and see who wins!

  17. #17
    Too Much Fun
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    DB calls it...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dusty Bottoms
    This is pretty funny. 2 groups defending frame materials as if they invented it. Maybe you guys should build light sabers out of your material of choice and see who wins!
    Tru DAT. This thread immediately pegged my ghey-dar to the redline.

    Its the FEEL GOOD THREAD OF THE YEAR!


    Two frame materials that found WUV.
    - -benja- -

  18. #18
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    No single material is suitable for all uses.

    Bickering aside, I was wondering when someone would address the potential backlash of those thread titles. But if anyone makes up their mind on a high end mtb form reading only those two threads then they would probably just be waiting to report every scratch as a catastrophic failure anyway. Who needs the stress?

    I'm sure Turner makes an awesome bike, so does Ibis. There will always be failures and crashes because we're not talking about business card holders or light sabers.

  19. #19
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    Every frame material is the Best In The World

    Quote Originally Posted by talkshow-host
    because we're not talking about business card holders or light sabers.
    ...Not so fast. Word on the street is that the '08 Mojo will actually have solid gold light sabers inside the frame. You can't see them, but they are there...
    - -benja- -

  20. #20
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    Well I must agree that recently they have been many posted threads about i broke my mojo frame which is actually just the painting/coating problem

  21. #21
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    Lets set the record straight

    In the 'broke my Mojo thread', the guy went over the bars and broke his
    chainstay. Could have happened on an al bike also. The other 2 threads were about
    cracks in the paint or composite. At least one of those was probably the composite, but
    Ibis is an awesomely cool company and I wouldnt worry about it too much if I were
    considering a Mojo. The seatpost insert problem has happened on enough frames that it
    may be a design issue that, while I'm sure it will be fixed for '08, you can fix yourself
    without a huge amount of hassle.
    While carbon is perhaps a bit more prone to small cracks than al because of its reduced ductility, the process of making carbon frames has been much improved, so this should not be the kind of issue it might have been in the past. Nonetheless, I would still want to keep those parts of the frame thast are most exposed to trail litter well protected, as I do on my al frame, since on those sections my main worry with al is scratches, but with carbon it would be a necessity to protect it well if you didnt want to end up with little dings and dents on the bottom facing parts of your frame.

  22. #22
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    Most excellent post

    Quote Originally Posted by derby
    .....

    Ibis has shown at least the equal of Turner’s over-the-top personal care and quick level of customer service.

    Davide didn’t come across as dis’ing Turner bikes at all. He was clearly putting the hairline surface and paint cracks posted as “Broken” or “Craked” Mojo’s in some perspective of REAL breaks and failures shown in the pictures......


    The recent “Broke my Mojo today” and “Cracked Mojo” threads have very misleading titles.

    Neither post turned out to be true. Both are surface finish cracks, not even remotely close to actual broken or cracked frame failures........

    .
    I don't have personal experience with Turner CS, but Ibis CS is the best I've ever encountered.

    “Broke my Mojo today” and “Cracked Mojo” are almost like "shock and awe" descriptions for situations that are not nearly as dire as the title of the post makes it seem. Davide's point is that EVERYTHING breaks! When my friend snapped his Blur LT in HALF, it didn't give him some kind of warning like some posters have said aluminum will. He did get a helicopter ride though!

    And what about guys like me with bikes made from carbon fiber AND aluminum??? (Felt F55 road bike) I must be taking a huge risk!!!!!!!
    I'm unique, just like everyone else....

  23. #23
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    I'm old school around here and a newbie at the same time. I owned and raced two OCLV frames, broke one of them. Broke an Al frame, wore out a steel frame. Everything wears out or breaks if you ride hard.

    End of the day, I crave CF. Love the feel, the ability to damp vibrations and the effortless feeling of 'air'.

    The other day I came off the trail and an obnoxious jarhead (who apparently owns a shop here in town) questioned my choice of riding such a fragile frame on the most technical, rocky trail in my area. Said it was risky and that I was 'braver' than him (translation, I was obviously ignorant).

    I don't have the patience to address people like this. So, just being an asshat, I responded with "if I break it I'll just buy another". That quickly ended the exchange.

    Anyway, these mojos are amazing rides, and the crew at Ibis appear to me to be the real deal. Good enough for me. . .

    Life's short. Enjoy the ride, mang.

  24. #24
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    Ops ... steel now

    ... just to go the extra mile and put steel construction into perspective (titanium will be next) one can see below what can happen when you ride a steel frame too hard

    ... and just to be ecumenical I add a Trek, Rocky Mountain and an Ellsworth

    PS Just to clarify (mostly because the usual creeps from the Turner forum are showing up completely missing the point)... I posted Turners' photos because I remembered the broken 5-spots episodes reported when I owned one. I did a quick search to dig them out but found many other episodes involving different Turner frames. A few examples were appropriate to show how aluminum frames ranging from 4" to 7" can fail catastrophically
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Davide; 08-20-2007 at 10:05 AM.

  25. #25
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    Like I said, for me, the most important factor in owning a carbon bike is owning it from a company that has good CS. Trek has a lifetime warranty which is good enough for me and Ibis has excellent service, they seem to reply to all of the post that are related to their frames cracking/breaking/paint peeling off. Anyone can tell me bout Specialized warranty? is it 3 years of lifetime? And how bout Giant's too if you guys dont mind

  26. #26
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    Mostly wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by le_buzz
    In the 'broke my Mojo thread', the guy went over the bars and broke his
    chainstay. Could have happened on an al bike also. The other 2 threads were about
    cracks in the paint or composite. At least one of those was probably the composite, but
    Ibis is an awesomely cool company and I wouldnt worry about it too much if I were
    considering a Mojo. The seatpost insert problem has happened on enough frames that it
    may be a design issue that, while I'm sure it will be fixed for '08, you can fix yourself
    without a huge amount of hassle.
    While carbon is perhaps a bit more prone to small cracks than al because of its reduced ductility, the process of making carbon frames has been much improved, so this should not be the kind of issue it might have been in the past. Nonetheless, I would still want to keep those parts of the frame thast are most exposed to trail litter well protected, as I do on my al frame, since on those sections my main worry with al is scratches, but with carbon it would be a necessity to protect it well if you didnt want to end up with little dings and dents on the bottom facing parts of your frame.
    OK, let’s straighten the record.

    A metal bike is far more likely to “ding and dent” and worse, bend and deform, from the same hit that will only scratch or chip the Mojo carbon fiber surface. A crash that would dent the Mojo would total all but the heaviest metal frames.

    The seat post glue failure is a rare manufacturing defect, not an unrepairable design defect that will affect every frame.

    The “Cracked frame” post turned out to be cracked paint, a rare manufacturing defect.

    Quote Originally Posted by le_buzz
    In the 'broke my Mojo thread', the guy went over the bars and broke his
    chainstay. ...
    In fact he did NOT break the chainstay. He was able to ride the bike out many miles because it wasn’t broken. Other than the dented shifter cable affecting shifting, the damage was superficial, cosmetic. With some super glue or maybe just fingernail polish the finish could be sealed up and remain as strong and reliable as ever.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by derby

    In fact he did NOT break the chainstay. He was able to ride the bike out many miles because it wasn’t broken. Other than the dented shifter cable affecting shifting, the damage was superficial, cosmetic. With some super glue or maybe just fingernail polish the finish could be sealed up and remain as strong and reliable as ever.
    In all fairness, this is not accurate b/c it is not known whether the damage is merely cosmetic. Tom from Ibis posted:

    "Tom from Ibis posting. It is hard to determine whether the swing arm is still structurally sound after your crash. It's possible considering that you were able to ride it that far without noticing anything, or without the damage propagating that it is purely cosmetic. However, it is better to be safe than sorry. So I would recommend contacting us directly about a crash replacement swing arm. You can call us toll free at 1 (866) 424-7635. "

  28. #28
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    Broke Two Rear Triangles in Two Weeks

    I have been watching this post with great interest. I hesitated to post this, but some of you appear to be misconceived about the durability of this frame and that it does not break. Maybe I just had back luck…

    Here the facts - I broke two rear triangles within two weeks and I have owned the bike for about 6 months. This is the first time that I have ever broken any aspect of a frame. I previously put a small dent in chainstay by hitting a rock (no apparent structural damage) - that was it. FYI – I weigh 185lbs with gear and I am fairly technical savvy rider. When the damage occurred, I chose to voice my issues directly with Ibis to avoid public concern over carbon fiber. However, some of these statements have sparked me to respond.

    For the record, I love the frame and how it handles. Ibis customer service is great – particularly when dealing with Hans and Scot. Everything is just perfect about the bike. It has allowed me to explore new opportunities on my rides. I have been hitting bigger jumps and drops. I have faith in the integrity of the frame, but it has been questioned.

    Incidents-
    Break #1
    I broke a rear triangle jumping a small dirt mound in the neighborhood with the kids. I am guessing the shock bottomed out. I broke the vertical support stay in two locations. I was bummed, but Ibis quickly sent me a free rear triangle and stated it was part of a bad batch. Okay, I can live with that. It appears “srust” had the same thing happen.

    Anyone crack a frame yet?

    However, two weeks later I broke the rear triangle again. This is where a recognizable debate exists and concerns are raised….how durable is the frame in common mountain bike crashes?

    Break #2
    On the trail there is a gap between two trees and root between them, I bunny hopped the root and the rear end swung wide and I grazed the tree. Side-impact happened, but nothing that derailed me. We were riding in a group (I was 2nd line) and the incident was so small that the group pace never changed. When I got home, I found a big crack in the rear triangle that appeared to spread. Yes, it was cracked – Ibis saw it (I live close to Ibis). I paid for a new rear triangle. I was depressed and then I got frustrated. This bike should handle this type of abuse. My buddies and I have hit this tree a number of times with different bikes generally bending a rear der. hanger or nothing at all.

    Yes, the replacement policy is great – but it is still $250 – not chump change. After this I was nervous, I want to play when biking and push my limits. I am the guy who hits all of the side obstacles on the trail and occasionally falls. This is the joy of biking. But if I am worrying about the frame, it is no fun and I am more likely to crash again.

    For whatever it is worth… I used to tape the hell out of the rear triangles. I relaxed with that except for chain impact. YOU should NOT tape with non-transparent tape so that you can properly inspect the bike. I would have overlooked the crack if I used black cloth tape, which I generally use on chainstays.

    Ending on a positive….
    Hans gave me the greenlight to “push” the limits. Hans re-instilled my confidence in the frame and explained that they can strengthen areas which are prone to repeated failure. I have regained full confidence and I have had no problems. I am having a blast with the bike! BUT -the final verdict will only be achieved through more rides and of course more crashes !

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by frayed cable
    In all fairness, this is not accurate b/c it is not known whether the damage is merely cosmetic. Tom from Ibis posted:

    "Tom from Ibis posting. It is hard to determine whether the swing arm is still structurally sound after your crash. It's possible considering that you were able to ride it that far without noticing anything, or without the damage propagating that it is purely cosmetic. However, it is better to be safe than sorry. So I would recommend contacting us directly about a crash replacement swing arm. You can call us toll free at 1 (866) 424-7635. "
    Yes. Tom's speedy suggestion for a guaranteed safe fix of the damage, which appears cosmetic to the swingarm, but could possibly be worse, is the best a manufacturer could provide.

    It was clearly not a broken Mojo.

  30. #30
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    I wonder if it is possible to get maybe a slightly heavier frame .. maybe about 6 lbs.. i would still be more than happy with that.. and in turn have some more carbon layers or whatever they do to strengthen the frame. in areas that are prone to breaking...
    Hopefully by the time they ship my bike to SA all the bugs would of been worked out.. I think it is beautiful frame and still look forward to trying this DW link everyone is going on about.. Coming off a 4 bar i am sure it would be a bit of a change.

    To be honest after my ride on Sunday with my new fork on the Switchblade "the fork was bought for the ibis, but cannot wait until October when the bike arrives" I am a little concerned that the Ibis will not handle the trial I was doing, or be as fun .. even though it has more travel. Time will tell , and will only know once I give it a go... Suppose if it breaks I can get a crash replacement and sell it.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by derby
    Yes. Tom's speedy suggestion for a guaranteed safe fix of the damage, which appears cosmetic to the swingarm, but could possibly be worse, is the best a manufacturer could provide.

    It was clearly not a broken Mojo.
    You are wrong. Sorry buddy. My swingarm is for sure broken. I pulled it off the frame last night and it was like a wet noodle, you could pinch the rear top portions almost together. You are welcome to ride it if you do not value your 2 front teeth...

    I did not want to start this argument either, but I just wanted the other Mojo riders to know that the bike can break if it takes a bad hit. I raced downhill and 4x in my past so when I bought the bike I did not plan on wrecking a bunch and being in situations over my head. I guess I have been just having more fun on the bike than I had planned. Still though, I am not totally convinced that this would have happened to an alloy bike, but it could have been worse. I have to agree with Dude!, Ibis is an awesome company, but 250 bucks is not chump change.

  32. #32
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    Idea! by the numbers

    Hello Forum,

    I have to say I really appreciate the thoughtful tone of this forum. (generally speaking That's why I am thinking that it's a good idea to just tell you what we're doing.

    We knew when we started this project that there was a lot we did not know, if that makes sense. Because of this we made the sections of all the tubes pretty large, giving us lots of room to thicken areas that might need it.

    We made the frame very strong in the ways that would resist front end failure that is common from jumping. We figured that would help keep people safe. This was a lot of work and 20 or so different layups tested. Front end strength is very high for a frame of this weight.

    We rode the test frames a lot and tried to make sure they didn't have any flaws.

    Then we started shipping frames. After a while we realized that people who were getting sticks caught up in the rear wheel or falling on rocks were getting some cracks in the seat stays. So.. We added some material in that area to increase the impact resistance.

    Since there has only been one failure so far in the area of the chainstay near the rear derailuer, (the tree / rear end impact mentioned above) we haven't done anything about that. If it happens again we'd consider it.

    After several months with almost no problems we saw some swingarms crack on the upright, not from really abusive stuff, loads we figured it should handle. Cutting the parts up and seeing what happened we noticed that the bladder inside that is used to compact the composite during curing had folds in it creating weak spots. We changed to a better fitting bladder and increased the wall thickness in that area about 80%.

    The great thing about composite construction is that this took only a few communications with the factory and cost us only 20 grams or so.
    We've shipped over 1300 frames and we've seen about 20 of those so far. A no charge replacment goes out asap to anyone who has one.

    The seat tube insert problem is lame and embarrasing. The glue was partially cured, thus no adhesion. The coated parts sat too long before assembly. Every batch of glue gets tested for shear strength and adheasion, but a mistake was made. It's not a design problem, it was simple human error. We check every one we ship out now, since Dirt Dad I think it was got 2 in a row. There have been 8 or 10 of those so far. I'm looking forward to there not being any more... but it is not too serious of a problem I think, more embarrassing and annoying.

    The paint cracks were a recent surprise. We think too much hardener might have been used in the paint. We are confident that it is the finish, not the composite because this has happened to frames that have not been ridden or even assembled. It seems to affect a small number of frames and tends to show up in areas that get flexed. We're working on it.

    We are really commited to keeping our customers happy both through making the product as good as it can be and also following it up with fast friendly service.

    Can we let this thread die now or at least soon??? I think we'll just be beating our respective dead horses if we keep it going

    Take care, rubber side down, ride more, work less....

    Hans

  33. #33
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    excellent response hanssc. I never heard of any manufacturer telling forum guys what they did with the frames

  34. #34
    Knomer
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    Quote Originally Posted by hanssc
    Hello Forum,

    I have to say I really appreciate the thoughtful tone of this forum. (generally speaking That's why I am thinking that it's a good idea to just tell you what we're doing.

    ...blah blah blah blah....

    Take care, rubber side down, ride more, work less....

    Hans
    Very impressive, blunt, honesty. I'm sold. Please ship an orange XL to Helen's in Santa Monica asap. No, I'm not kidding. Thanks.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dusty Bottoms
    Very impressive, blunt, honesty. I'm sold. Please ship an orange XL to Helen's in Santa Monica asap. No, I'm not kidding. Thanks.
    Buy it from Armando at Helen's in Marina Del Rey. He'll actually remember your name.
    I'm unique, just like everyone else....

  36. #36
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    Ok my mind is made up.. I want a mojo... any manufacturer that can sit with us on here and explain things when we are full of questions is great in my book.. I am sold and am selling all my titus clothes.... from now on I wear IBIS .. gawd i love being a brand whore

  37. #37
    Knomer
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    Quote Originally Posted by BunnV
    Buy it from Armando at Helen's in Marina Del Rey. He'll actually remember your name.
    Haha, I think I've ridden with Armando in PV. I'm a long time SM Helen's local. Monty has me all hooked up.

    Hopefully you're not TOO pissed that there will be another oragne Mojo roaming the SM's.

  38. #38
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    Team Eddy Orange!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dusty Bottoms

    Hopefully you're not TOO pissed that there will be another oragne Mojo roaming the SM's.
    No way! I won't be pissed. I've never seen any other Mojo on the trail
    What's your favorite trail up there? I like backbone and Sullivan Canyon just to name two...
    I'm unique, just like everyone else....

  39. #39
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    Very nice.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by hanssc
    Hello Forum,
    I have to say I really appreciate the thoughtful tone of this forum. (generally speaking That's why I am thinking that it's a good idea to just tell you what we're doing.
    Hans
    Hans, good to know! I guess it would be prudent to wait another year or so till you perfect the process before buying one.

    BTW, I think if you work for Ibis you are supposed to identify yourself as such accdg to mtbr rules.

    "All Manufacturers should declare their status as a Manufacturer in their signature"
    Last edited by SCUBAPRO; 08-20-2007 at 09:31 AM.
    "The best you've ridden is the best you know" - Paul Thede, Race Tech

  41. #41
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    I would have never known!

    Quote Originally Posted by SCUBAPRO

    BTW, I think if you work for Ibis you are supposed to identify yourself as such accdg to mtbr rules.

    "All Manufacturers / Vendors / Shop Owners / Sponsored Riders should declare their status as a Retailer / Manufacturer in their signature"
    Hans works for Ibis????
    I would have never known! What gave it away for you? Was it when he says...
    Quote Originally Posted by HANSSC
    We knew when we started this project that there was a lot we did not know, if that makes sense. Because of this we made the sections of all the tubes pretty large, giving us lots of room to thicken areas that might need it.
    Or, maybe when he said...

    Quote Originally Posted by HANSSC
    We made the frame very strong in the ways that would resist front end failure that is common from jumping. We figured that would help keep people safe. This was a lot of work and 20 or so different layups tested. Front end strength is very high for a frame of this weight.
    The "We" he is referring to must be Ibis right?
    I get it!

    Or how about this? This problem affected me personally.
    Quote Originally Posted by HANSSC
    The seat tube insert problem is lame and embarrasing. The glue was partially cured, thus no adhesion. The coated parts sat too long before assembly. Every batch of glue gets tested for shear strength and adheasion, but a mistake was made. It's not a design problem, it was simple human error. We check every one we ship out now, since Dirt Dad I think it was got 2 in a row. There have been 8 or 10 of those so far. I'm looking forward to there not being any more... but it is not too serious of a problem I think, more embarrassing and annoying.
    How else would Hans know so much about this unless he worked for Ibis?! I would have never figured that out!

    I think this line must have been the final "ah ha!" clue that Hans is an offical Ibis insider....


    Quote Originally Posted by HANSSC
    We are really commited to keeping our customers happy both through making the product as good as it can be and also following it up with fast friendly service.
    Yes sir!... sounds like a company man to me! You're right though, he really should identify himself, just in case it's not obvious that he works for Ibis.
    I'm unique, just like everyone else....

  42. #42
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    Haha, who would guessed that being active in a forum would promote their company , maybe in the future you can see more big companies being active in forum stuffs, although I doubt so. Go Ibis, a few things that I like bout Ibis is you can deal direct to them, unlike Specialized, Giant or Trek which require your dealer. If you dealer sucks, you will get sucky warranty customer service. Well done Ibis

  43. #43
    Ride 2 Work, Work 2 Ride!
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    Testing frames!

    I wanna test frames for a living! I promise to do 6 to 8 foot drops and anything else that would brake a frame! All I need is med insurance!
    "Don't give up, Never give up!"

  44. #44
    MW
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    Quote Originally Posted by DH_WP
    I want a mojo... any manufacturer that can sit with us on here and explain things when we are full of questions is great in my book..
    You should troll the Turner board for a bit... Dave Turner is a consistent and reliable presence over there. It's pretty neat to see the relationship that emerges between DT and the regulars on MTBR's Turner board.

    Not posting this to argue how great Turners are / aren't ... just saying that direct involvement between manufacturers and riders on these boards goes a long, long way toward establishing a brand's reputation, customer loyalty, etc. etc. etc.

    Seems like the Ibis folks are on the right path, too.

    --MW

    BTW -- anyone trying to understand J_C's response to the OP should search on Davide's posts to the Turner board... it'll come into focus pretty quick.

  45. #45
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    well so far I only see Ibis and Dave Turner on the boards

  46. #46
    MW
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    Quote Originally Posted by wheelhot
    well so far I only see Ibis and Dave Turner on the boards
    I thought the guys from Chumba were active on their board, too... but I might be imagining that.

    Regardless, it's not something you'll see from the "big three," that's for sure.

    --MW

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by wheelhot
    well so far I only see Ibis and Dave Turner on the boards
    DW happens to be a regular at the IH forum as well as a couple other folks from IH. And there's pecusick at the Intense forum. All good IMHO.
    "The best you've ridden is the best you know" - Paul Thede, Race Tech

  48. #48
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    good to see the intelligent follow-up posts....but....

    Davide, i think you would have avoided the heat if you had given examples of multiple manufacturers with cracked frames, not just Turners. That you decided to pick a single manufacturer, and one that you have criticized strongly against in the past, increases your douche level significantly and begs the question why you only searched the Turner forum for your sample set. You're smart enough to search the whole forum if you wanted to.

    Just keep it real. Be objective and use the whole sample set. Your post leaves a slightly metallic "anti-turner" aftertaste. Just think of the opposite as an example....what if I had posted about the weakness of carbon fiber, and offered only Ibis as my example? My argument against cf would then be not only critiquing cf, but in a corollary sense, Ibis as a cf manufacturer, which would be unjustified in its singular focus.

    And so the record is straight, I'm a huge Ibis fan and ride a Spanky. In fact, Scott brought the frame down to Sausaulito so I could pick it up personally. Thanks Chuck!
    lets not make it a religion, it is recreation

  49. #49
    Knomer
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    Quote Originally Posted by wheelhot
    well so far I only see Ibis and Dave Turner on the boards
    There's a guy from Intense that chimes in on their board as well.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by SCUBAPRO
    BTW, I think if you work for Ibis you are supposed to identify yourself as such accdg to mtbr rules.
    I think that 90% of their posts start off with, "This is xxx from Ibis".

    But in any event, most of the members on this forum know the Ibis crew like their own riding buddies. Hans, Scott and Tom are regulars while Roxy made one rare appearance last year.

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