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Thread: Turner vs. Ibis

  1. #1
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    Turner vs. Ibis

    I ride a 2004 Turner 5 Spot. I love the bike. However, the Ibis Mojo or Mojo SL looks very interesting. Can any of you compare the Turner to either of these two? Thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicylemark
    I ride a 2004 Turner 5 Spot. I love the bike. However, the Ibis Mojo or Mojo SL looks very interesting. Can any of you compare the Turner to either of these two? Thanks.
    I had a Turner 2003 5-Spot for 3 years. While I liked the bike I was never completely convinced by its performance and I could not really jump on the Turner bandwagon.

    The Ibis is simply all I can dream of a top-of-the-line bike. It climbs and accellerates much better then the 5-spot, and, in my opinion works better downhill where the DW suspension is much more predictable especially when it comes to counter-slope bumps (the ones that sack the suspension and make you go umph!). Often those bumps made the rear wheel on the 5-spot fly (and notice I had a Rp3/PUSH) and the bike swayed to the side if you were not ultra careful. Not on the Mojo (with the standard RP23). But besides the downhill it is the uphill and all around riding that will really surprise you: the mojo really climbs like the proverbial goat AND it is very very plush, at least as plush as my 5-spot with the RP3/PUSH in the softest setting but ... again ... it climbs.

    Some people think the 5-spot is burlier but I think that it just looks so: there is quite a lot of old-time thinking on the 5-spot and while it gives it an industrial "working-class" solid look, a lot of details can probably be re-engineered without compromising strength. As i mentioned above the Mojo flies as straight as an arrow, it is, for me again, more composed and stable then the 5-spot.

    But anyway, give it a try, I am VERY picky with bikes and to this day (after almost a year) I cannot find a fault on the IBIS. In my book it is a real bandwagon
    Last edited by Davide; 01-23-2008 at 07:35 PM.

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    I couldn't have said it better!

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    Quote Originally Posted by ibisrox
    I couldn't have said it better!
    Hmm, how long did you own your 5Spot?
    "The best you've ridden is the best you know" - Paul Thede, Race Tech

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    You'll find the Mojo handling is nearly the same as the '04 5 Spot. The 5 Spot ride was my favorite of all the 5 - 6.6 inch travel bikes I've demoed before getting the Mojo. Having the same handling geometry was why in ’06 I got the Mojo over an MKiii (the MKiii later changed geometry to match the Mojo’s in the '07 model). The Mojo has a very balanced cornering and jumping feel like the 5-Spot but the Mojo feels like it has a lower center of weight (maybe because there is less weight up high)

    I like the dw-Link more than Horst link or monopivot or any other suspension so far that I've tried or can imagine because it rides super smooth and stable without undesirable pedal feedback. So I can tune only enough damping for trail condition without compromising bump compliance for firmer pedaling stability as needed by the Turner bikes and just about all others.

    The 5-Spot is a great bike, in my top 3 or 4 of favorite trail bikes. The Mojo is noticeably better performing with no downside compared to the Spot.

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    Another veteran 5-Spot rider that thinks the Mojo blows it away! Still ride the 5-Spot occaisionally (it's set up for winter use) but much prefer the Mojo for all the reasons mentioned above. Would also add that the Mojo carves singletrack like no other bike, springing out of corners a bit like a carving ski!

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    Quote Originally Posted by derby
    The 5-Spot is a great bike, in my top 3 or 4 of favorite trail bikes. The Mojo is noticeably better performing with no downside compared to the Spot.
    You mean other than being way flexier?
    "Do not touch the trim"

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rivet
    You mean other than being way flexier?
    I think that Ray has made it abundantly clear that any "flex" that he perceives is something that adds to his experience. Its obvious from what i read from him that he likes the bike the way it is. Seeing as we are talking about opinons here I don't see what the issue is. His opinion is his opinion.

    I've ridden plenty of bikes with a heck of a lot more "flex" than my Mojo, I think that the bike rides absolutely great and never for a second have I considered it "flexy" to a detriment. Just my opinion though. I'm 5'11" 165 and like to shred the gnar.. hah
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    Can't be done

    Quote Originally Posted by Rivet
    You mean other than being way flexier?
    You can always count on some meaningless comment form a Turner fan. Side by side on the trail I could not tell the difference between my 5-spot and the Mojo when it coame to tracking straight (besides the Mojo working better on some types of downhill, but that is the DW-link).

    But to the point: the idea that you can evaluate "flex" of a frame by grabbing the stays, or the front or whatever is nonsense. What you are evaluating is at most your flesh reaction to the applied pressure

    Even if you were able to measure "flex" (and more important, as I said before, "reflex") using a machine you would need a theory to map those measurements to the trail ... which not many of us have ... last time I checked
    Last edited by Davide; 01-25-2008 at 10:31 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rivet
    You mean other than being way flexier?
    What are your numbers? I found some flex difference but not huge as you say.

    I’ve already gone over this argument and found the Mojo’s minor amount of flex turns out to be a performance benefit due to the damping nature of carbon fiber and how the minor damped flex has been designed.

    When I compared my year old Mojo’s flex side by side with a new Spot on a showroom floor there was about 50% more flex using the same effort when twisting the top of the rear wheel in opposite direction to the seat post. In numbers, using the same effort, if the Spot flexed 6mm, the Mojo 9mm.

    But when flexing the wheel from a point near the BB against the lower end of the seat tube there was almost no flex difference between the Spot and Mojo.

    I flexed my Mojo’s head tube vs. the top of the front wheel between the Fox 32/140 stansions and the flex was much more than at the top of the rear wheel vs. seat post of the Mojo. That would be the same for a Spot or any bike using the same fork.

    Another factor is that the naturally more damped flex from carbon fiber with the same travel is smoother and more bump compliant compared to chattery stiff springy flex from aluminum bikes.

    If also including tire side flex, you could run 5 pounds more pressure in the Mojo rear tire, turn on the shock propedal at position 2, and get about the same handling feel overall if you like the firmer ride and more rear wheel handling chatter.

    The argument that the naturally damped flex of carbon fiber is less efficient than the stiffer and springy flex of aluminum bikes is the same argument that full suspension is less efficient than hardtails. It depends on the use. Suspension is better for rough trails, more rigid is better for smooth road use.

    So the Spot’s stiffer springy flex might slightly outperform the Mojo if you are only riding downhill on very smooth trails. I wouldn’t consider that a downside for the Mojo.

  11. #11
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    I can't compare the Mojo to a 5 spot but I can say that my wife has been on one for a year and loves it. I have ridden the bike some and think all the comments claiming it's flexy are BS.

    I knew when I saw this post that the other forum would start with their mantra that carbon is only for road bikes, nothing is better than a Turner, ever, and the Mojo will self destruct if you even ride near a rock.

    I can say my wife rides a lot and rides hard and her Mojo is holding up great. It's possible she even rides as hard as the gnar homers doing 3 foot to flat drops all the time.

    Find one you can test ride and see what you think.
    Last edited by ScottW; 01-26-2008 at 04:05 PM.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottW
    I can't compare the Mojo to a 5 spot but I can say that my wife has been on one for a year and loves it. I have ridden the bike some and think all the comments claiming it's flexy are BS.

    I knew when I saw this post that the other forum would start with their manta that carbon is only for road bikes, nothing is better than a Turner, ever, and the Mojo will self destruct if you even ride near a rock.

    I can say my wife rides a lot and rides hard and her Mojo is holding up great. It's possible she even rides as hard as the gnar homers doing 3 foot to flat drops all the time.

    Find one you can test ride and see what you think.
    I imagine your wife probably weighs a lot less than most Homers though.

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    Flex/smex?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rivet
    You mean other than being way flexier?
    If you stick your foot on the bottom bracket and push against it, than you are measuring sidewall flexibility on the rear tire. If the bike is 'too flexible' the chain will rub against the front derailleur.

    Cheers,

  14. #14
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    I usually avoid stopping mid ride to twist the fame, or pushin sideways on the cranks while standing next to the bike. Odd testing protocol if you ask me. Just ride 'em back to back. Grabbing the back tire of a bike on a show room floor and reefing side to side, or twisting handlebars while grasping a front wheel between your knees tells you little about a bike's riding capabilities.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottW
    I knew when I saw this post that the other forum would start with their ... nothing is better than a Turner, ever,...
    The Turner forum is a strange case of mass self-delusion

    The main (if not only) reason Turner got so popular on MTBR is because at a certain point the Burner was one of the few "real-MTB" boutique bikes (with Intense and Titus) with a Horst link (thanks to Specialzed). Back in those days the mystique in the forum was that nothing rode like a Turner Horst (note the qualifier) and ... period that's was it, a Ventana (when Shewood actually built the first Turners) was caca and the rumor was that it was actually Turner that invented the magic Horst (ops! they forgot Nicolai).

    Nowadays (with the switch to 4-bar/single pivot) there is absolutely zero difference between the suspension and geometry of, say, a 5-spot and Kona Dwang ... somehow, however, in that forum there is still nothing better then a Turner ...

    I express no judgment (or maybe a little bit) but it is a bit bizarre

  16. #16
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    Why the debate?

    What I find really strange is that there seems to be a rivalry between the Turner Homers and Mojo'ers. I ask why? There doesn't seem to be this same competitiveness amongst other boutique brands (i.e. Ellsworth, Santa Cruz, Titus, Ventana, etc). So why is there this debate of "what's best" between the Spot and the Mojo? From what I notice, Mojo'ers (for a lack of a better word) never say anything bad about Turners, specifically the Spot, since that is the most comparable Turner bike to the Mojo. But if you read the Turner forum...there is an overwhelmingly bad impression of the Mojo. Most of which is heresay and the belief that 1) carbon is just evil and 2) the mojo is as flexy as a wet noodle. I wonder why they feel so threatened. If you like the Turners then more power to you. I just don't get it when "they" feel it necessary to knock a competitor down to make their bike look better. If you really feel that your bike is so great and is THEE best thing out there, then you shouldn't feel it necessary to tear down the competition.

  17. #17
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    Did you say "..there doesn't seem to be the same competitiveness amongst other boutique brands (i.e. Ellsworth........)" ?!

    There is far far far more animosity and competitiveness with the Turner forum (not to be confused with the brand) and the Ellsworth forum! FAR more. The little IBIS vs Turner thread at the Turner forum has been treated with kid gloves compared to past Ellsworth discussions. In fact, all the brands you've mentioned, the Ventana brand may be the only one the hasn't been ridiculed and derided in the Turner Forum

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davide
    You can always count on some meaningless comment form a Turner fan.
    I agree with Davide

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by sparrow
    Did you say "..there doesn't seem to be the same competitiveness amongst other boutique brands (i.e. Ellsworth........)" ?!

    There is far far far more animosity and competitiveness with the Turner forum (not to be confused with the brand) and the Ellsworth forum! FAR more. The little IBIS vs Turner thread at the Turner forum has been treated with kid gloves compared to past Ellsworth discussions. In fact, all the brands you've mentioned, the Ventana brand may be the only one the hasn't been ridiculed and derided in the Turner Forum
    indeed.....Ventana somehow, even with aholes like me and squeaky owning one, maintains a certain level of neutrality in the ghey mtbr pissing contests

    UNLIKE Turner for sure (in truth, the corresponding Turner culture while it fits my 'on-line' persona is among the reasons I sold mine...that, and my Ventana loyalty i suppose)

  20. #20
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    Turner v/s Mojo

    Thoughts...I have had two Turners, an original Burner and an RFX with 5" and then updated to 6" of travel and a triple crown fork. Both were Horst Link bikes, and great in their day. Stiff, pretty and durable...but the pivot bushings were a pain to service and very expensive to replace.

    I sold the RFX which was built up to 40lbs for heavy duty riding and was too heavy to climb with comfortably. We bought our Gemini's in 03' (34.5 lbs.) when DaveTurner would no longer sell direct and the prices in Canada for a 5 spot, due to our low dollar were crazy...ie. $3500 for the frame in 03/04. Today, I would not buy a five spot...why? Now that they have forgone the Horst Link, they are are basically a well-made Kona or essentially a single pivot...the same as my Gemini. All single pivots need lots of stable platform to ride acceptably.

    Aside from the bling of carbon fibre, the main reason we are buying two Mojo's (which we have not ridden, but have on order) is the DW link suspension. In my view, the DW link and possibly Santa Cruz's Virtual Pivot and Giant's Maestro clone, are the next generation of rear suspensions and are the only way to go in the higher-end bike market. You would not buy a ten year old computer, so why buy early stage bike suspension?

    We hope to receive our two SL's sometime in 2008....hoping that the "proof is in the pudding"...Enjoying the forum...bob austin, Vancouver Island

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparrow
    Did you say "..there doesn't seem to be the same competitiveness amongst other boutique brands (i.e. Ellsworth........)" ?!

    There is far far far more animosity and competitiveness with the Turner forum (not to be confused with the brand) and the Ellsworth forum! FAR more. The little IBIS vs Turner thread at the Turner forum has been treated with kid gloves compared to past Ellsworth discussions. In fact, all the brands you've mentioned, the Ventana brand may be the only one the hasn't been ridiculed and derided in the Turner Forum
    You misunderstood what I meant...

    I should clarify by saying that the "other" forums aren't nearly as opinionated (trying to be polite) when it comes to the "other" brands. I know about the ellsworth vs. Turner debate....I didn't mean that Ibis is the new Ellsworth. The homers are way protective over their brand....much more so than any of the other forums. Makes me wonder why.......

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by ddraewwg
    The homers are way protective over their brand....much more so than any of the other forums.
    And Ibis Homers aren't? Homers are Homers; you know.
    "The best you've ridden is the best you know" - Paul Thede, Race Tech

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by SCUBAPRO
    And Ibis Homers aren't? Homers are Homers; you know.
    I don't think you see a lot of voilatile protective posts from Ibis owners. In fact I think you see an awful lot of "ride it and ride the other bikes you are interested in and then decide" comments from many ibis owners.

    I know when I post that line it is with utmost confidence that it is highly likely that the Ibis is going to win a "ride it" test and if it doesn't then the person really is better off on a different bike.

    But then, I love my Ibis and ignorant bashing of it (more often it is ignorant bashing of Carbon rather than the mojo) can get my goat up.It seems like the board warrioring on mtbr has raised in temperature and energy since winter has settled in around the northern hemisphere.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobAustin
    but the pivot bushings were a pain to service and very expensive to replace.
    they are are basically a well-made Kona or essentially a single pivot...the same as my Gemini. All single pivots need lots of stable platform to ride acceptably.
    You're kidding, right?

    At least be factual if you're going to put together an otherwise nice response.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by zzsean
    I don't think you see a lot of voilatile protective posts from Ibis owners. In fact I think you see an awful lot of "ride it and ride the other bikes you are interested in and then decide" comments from many ibis owners.
    I do not think the responses are volatile. Matter of fact it's a lot like your test ride as many bikes and buy which one fits you best, advice. Stick around there a bit and you'll see it's just mostly teasing in good fun. Seems like people take mtbr waaay too seriously. Keep in mind there is soooo much misinformation on these boards so take everything with a grain of salt unless you know the poster personally.
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  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by SCUBAPRO
    Seems like people take mtbr waaay too seriously.
    screw you dude. you may not take it serious but for some of us, its pretty much the source of info in terms of what bike/bike parts are the ones we choose. Just cuz you are not passionate about biking enough to appreciate how profound of an impact mtbr makes on some of our lives doesnt give you the right to belittle us. effing turner d!cks!

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobAustin
    In my view, the DW link and possibly Santa Cruz's Virtual Pivot and Giant's Maestro clone, are the next generation of rear suspensions and are the only way to go in the higher-end bike market. You would not buy a ten year old computer, so why buy early stage bike suspension?
    RC; is that you? Sounds like an excerpt from MBA.
    "The best you've ridden is the best you know" - Paul Thede, Race Tech

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by FoShizzle
    screw you dude. you may not take it serious but for some of us, its pretty much the source of info in terms of what bike/bike parts are the ones we choose. Just cuz you are not passionate about biking enough to appreciate how profound of an impact mtbr makes on some of our lives doesnt give you the right to belittle us. effing turner d!cks!
    I agree with Fo!

    BTW, ef you too
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  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by SCUBAPRO
    I agree with Fo!

    BTW, ef you too
    i think it would be great if Dave Weagle could join Sherwood and Dave Turner at the HIP event this year.....I told my wife tonight I HAVE to go...that would be friggin boss!

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by FoShizzle
    i think it would be great if Dave Weagle could join Sherwood and Dave Turner at the HIP event this year.....I told my wife tonight I HAVE to go...that would be friggin boss!
    Agreed! I'm sure DT would be up for it. You should as SSinGA to send an invite to both. HIP this year will include VIPs as you know.

    Oh, have you seen you Friday FoRoast. Warning to Ibis Homers: clown crap friday in effect, proceed with caution...
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    p!ss!ing contest won by Ibis!

    I love the Ventana's that I own [2]. Turner is a great person/brand. Flex of the Mojo has made absolutely no difference to my enjoyment of riding this bike.

    go for a test ride. make up your own mind.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by SCUBAPRO
    Agreed! I'm sure DT would be up for it. You should as SSinGA to send an invite to both. HIP this year will include VIPs as you know.

    Oh, have you seen you Friday FoRoast. Warning to Ibis Homers: clown crap friday in effect, proceed with caution...
    Sherwood has been invited as i understand it and is going, which is why i want to go (wife already started nagging me about the trip and there is no date even set!)

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    Hey Derby, do you think the flex on the Mojo is in the swingarm, and if so why? I am pretty sure it comes from the top link, which is only two slabs and has no yoke between them. I can squeeze the seatstays together with just my hand, and if I do the "ghetto between your legs" flex test it seems only to flex near the top link. I think this bike's flex is identical to the earlier model Intense 5.5 (which I also own) where the top link was of the same design, I switched it out for a Push link and it was night and day better. What do you or others think?

  34. #34
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    Stop the buggleprot!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by woogie11
    What do you or others think?
    I think it is time to stop the buggloprot!! this talk about squeeze is just nonsense without any foundation in objective data. You need damn machines to measure frames. Yourself twisting on a wheel in a bike shop or on a trail or putting the head of the bike between your legs and pushing will just not do ... although it might qualify as a mild form of SM
    Attached Images Attached Images
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  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by zzsean
    I don't think you see a lot of voilatile protective posts from Ibis owners. In fact I think you see an awful lot of "ride it and ride the other bikes you are interested in and then decide" comments from many ibis owners.

    I know when I post that line it is with utmost confidence that it is highly likely that the Ibis is going to win a "ride it" test and if it doesn't then the person really is better off on a different bike.

    But then, I love my Ibis and ignorant bashing of it (more often it is ignorant bashing of Carbon rather than the mojo) can get my goat up.It seems like the board warrioring on mtbr has raised in temperature and energy since winter has settled in around the northern hemisphere.
    Ditto. I don't see as many inflammatory remarks made on the Ibis forum...let alone any other forum than Turner. Yes, Turner has a "culture" and you either like it or you don't. To regulars, it's much easier to accept this cuz you know that for the most part, it's all in good fun. However, there are newbies who don't and the result is that you come off snobbish, ignorant, mean, egotistical, etc.

    I do not think the responses are volatile. Matter of fact it's a lot like your test ride as many bikes and buy which one fits you best, advice. Stick around there a bit and you'll see it's just mostly teasing in good fun. Seems like people take mtbr waaay too seriously. Keep in mind there is soooo much misinformation on these boards so take everything with a grain of salt unless you know the poster personally.
    Yes, I agree with the latter part of that statement. You bring up the problem though....we don't know 98% of the posters personally but teasing, joking, whatever IS personal. You don't know the intent of the poster....was he just kidding? Or was he being serious? There's no way to know......especially to the newbies. That's all I'm saying.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by ddraewwg
    I don't see as many inflammatory remarks made on the Ibis forum...let alone any other forum than Turner.
    that is an inflammatory statement towards the Homers

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by FoShizzle
    that is an inflammatory statement towards the Homers
    Amazing how folks forget to "look in the mirror".
    "The best you've ridden is the best you know" - Paul Thede, Race Tech

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by SCUBAPRO
    Amazing how folks forget to "look in the mirror".
    Stop making inflammatory remarks on the Ibis forum.


  39. #39
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    jerk!
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    Quote Originally Posted by FoShizzle
    that is an inflammatory statement towards the Homers
    Yeah...like you should be talking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SCUBAPRO
    Amazing how folks forget to "look in the mirror".
    Oh....i guess you didn't get it....I was just "teasing". That is ok isn't it?

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    strike a nerve?

    Quote Originally Posted by ddraewwg
    Oh....i guess you didn't get it....I was just "teasing". That is ok isn't it?
    Relax! It's only Monday.

    BTW, emoticons do help when you're trying to be funny or sarcastic.
    "The best you've ridden is the best you know" - Paul Thede, Race Tech

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    Quote Originally Posted by Davide
    ...this talk about squeeze is just nonsense without any foundation in objective data. You need damn machines to measure frames.
    If you like measurements on the flex get yourself a copy of the German Bike magazine issue Jan 2008.

    Discussion related to the article on the Bike magazine can be found here:

    Mojo in a comparison test on the German Bike magazine
    Pertti
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    Quote Originally Posted by ddraewwg
    Yeah...like you should be talking.
    another inflammatory statement.....i have feelings too by the way

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    Quote Originally Posted by FoShizzle
    another inflammatory statement.....i have feelings too by the way
    It's too bad most of Fo's "feelings" involve gerbils or other rodents of a convenient size.
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by woogie11
    Hey Derby, do you think the flex on the Mojo is in the swingarm, and if so why? I am pretty sure it comes from the top link, which is only two slabs and has no yoke between them. I can squeeze the seatstays together with just my hand, and if I do the "ghetto between your legs" flex test it seems only to flex near the top link. I think this bike's flex is identical to the earlier model Intense 5.5 (which I also own) where the top link was of the same design, I switched it out for a Push link and it was night and day better. What do you or others think?
    Yes, I agree with you that the upper links bound together somewhat closely only by the cantilevered shock mount is allowing some of the flex that a crossover or u-shaped upper link would reduce.

    Do I think the flex is too much? No. It is just about the right amount to balance well with the flexier Fox 32mm forks the bike is most commonly ridden with. And it's not too much flex, perhaps just right depending on what feedback a rider wants, for the stiffer 20mm through-axle and 36mm forks it can handle within warrantee.

    It’s my opinion that it would be appropriate for PUSH Industries to produce a unified upper linkage for the Mojo. PUSH has done aftermarket modification links to Intense and Turner bikes before. It would add about a quarter pound of weight and appeal to the more AM riders who are irritated by the parking lot flex test comparisons with slightly stiffer bikes. It might void the Ibis warrantee if not certified.

    Flex is a handling and feel issue. Since the Mojo rides so much better than other bikes with its travel with more flex than some, I'm realizing that rear suspension flex must be balanced with fork flex.

    And the fork needs to be stiffer in lateral flex than the rear for the best handling control and feedback feel. Race motorcycles and cars are designed this way with rare exceptions to have firmer suspension in front with the same desirable balance of front stiffness bias with lateral flex. Dirt motorcycles are designed with minimizing flex in the forks similar to street motorcycles of the similar race class, while dirt motorcycle design has much flexier swingarms rear suspensions than a street motorcycle.

    It's my opinion that many major and boutique brands are building trail bikes that have too little rear flex for the forks they are designed and sold with.

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Portti
    If you like measurements on the flex get yourself a copy of the German Bike magazine issue Jan 2008.
    [/url]
    No I don't ... Accurate measurements of frame reaction to stresses are useful for somebody who builds a frame but they are useless for a rider. I'll always remember a test on fork stiffness on German Bike in which Marzocchi forks came out less stiff then others, while their performance on the trail said exactly the opposite.

    And my point is that all the discussion in this thread and others about "flex" (never properly defined, "measured" by eye by pushing here and there) are just fantasy, maybe fun, but fantasy. Goes as well with all the absurdity about carbon flex vs aluminum rigidity.

    'ving said that ... a unified linkage is going to be stronger then two separate ones ... do you need it ... boh
    Last edited by Davide; 01-28-2008 at 07:10 PM.

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    I agree, and was thinking the same thing with regards to a PUSH Mojo link. I really like my Mojo but, can't help comparing it to my 5.5. I liked my 5.5 before the PUSH link but, I definitely liked it more with the PUSH link. Peace.

  49. #49
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    Push, Pull, Or Shove

    t’s my opinion that it would be appropriate for PUSH Industries to produce a unified upper linkage for the Mojo.
    I agree, and was thinking the same thing with regards to a PUSH Mojo link.
    Huh
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    I realize you probably couldn't make a one piece link without it coming into contact with the tire but, couldn't you make a stiffer link? Or are your faces implying you've thought about it and it can't be done?

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by PUSHIND
    Huh
    oh crap...

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    A wink and a nod...

    Quote Originally Posted by woogie11
    I realize you probably couldn't make a one piece link without it coming into contact with the tire but, couldn't you make a stiffer link? Or are your faces implying you've thought about it and it can't be done?
    Being a Turner Homer maybe I'm a little more accustomed to sarcasm, but doesn't that look like a prototype link?




    ...and six ppl run straight out to the garage.
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  53. #53
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    I thinkPUSH should design a circular one-piece link that completely encircles the seat tube.

    I think it can be done. Perhaps Ibis can get the frame molded around it.

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by PUSHIND
    Huh
    The one piece upper link would have to connect with one "U" link crossing forward of the seatpost link pivot, and clear the shock and seatpost during full travel. It looks likes there's room but maybe I'm missing something.

    It would reduce some lateral flex in the rear when doing the parking lot test. But you probably wouldn't feel any difference while riding except on some controlled repeated hard cornering on ripple surface slickrock or pavement. Lateral tire flex is much more (unless way over pressured).

  55. #55
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    but doesn't that look like a prototype link?
    Ding, Ding! We have a winner!

    Darren

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    Quote Originally Posted by PUSHIND
    Ding, Ding! We have a winner!

    Darren
    That's nice but can you improve the subatomic damping designed into the frame?
    "The best you've ridden is the best you know" - Paul Thede, Race Tech

  57. #57
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    I agree with SCUBAPRO

    Quote Originally Posted by SCUBAPRO
    That's nice but can you improve the subatomic damping designed into the frame?
    I never liked the second harmonic frequency resonance damping spectrum of the 12th electron ... even if "it allows faster cornering with greater traction"

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davide
    I never liked the second harmonic frequency resonance damping spectrum of the 12th electron ... even if "it allows faster cornering with greater traction"


    I agree with Davide.
    "The best you've ridden is the best you know" - Paul Thede, Race Tech

  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by SCUBAPRO


    I agree with Davide.
    I liked Davide better when he owned a Turner

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by PUSHIND
    Ding, Ding! We have a winner!

    Darren
    I'm looking forward to this since I've already starting designing a link on a bike that I don't even own... yet. Please get this into production so I don't have to spend hours in the machine shop. I'm not a subscriber of the floppy is good theory.

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by BitterDave
    I'm not a subscriber of the floppy is good theory.
    Heresy! To the gauntlet...
    "The best you've ridden is the best you know" - Paul Thede, Race Tech

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    The Mojo is indeed magic!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by Davide
    I never liked the second harmonic frequency resonance damping spectrum of the 12th electron ... even if "it allows faster cornering with greater traction"
    It even gave Davide a sense of humor! Well done dude.
    Enjoy your bikes, you know they rock.
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikezilla



    It even gave Davide a sense of humor! Well done dude.
    Enjoy your bikes, you know they rock.
    Talk about magic, if you're to believe Derby you can win a World Cup downhill and XC race on the Mojo.....that really is some magic Mojo.
    "Do not touch the trim"

  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rivet
    Talk about magic, if you're to believe Derby you can win a World Cup downhill and XC race on the Mojo.....that really is some magic Mojo.
    Sea Otter DH perhaps....

  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by zzsean
    Sea Otter DH perhaps....
    I doubt if the Mojo would be very good on the WC downhills as Rivit is suggesting (the first I heard it suggested - wasn't me).

    With the huge jump in travel with much heavier and bigger bikes in the last few years, the difficulty of many pro only downhill courses is much greater compared to just 5 years ago and earlier.

    The Mojo is much stronger and has almost 50% more travel than the red Turner Burner that won the famed Mammoth Mountain “Kamikaze” DH in the late '90s. The "Kamikaze" fireroad isn't run there anymore, deemed too dangerous. They switched years ago to a slower DH course lower on the Mountain that the Mojo could handle too.

    Sea Otter Classic DH race is not WC, although there are sometimes WC riders competing, and would be no problem to be competitive on a Mojo. I've seen DH courses at Squaw Valley and Infinion that would be no problem on a Mojo.

    The Mojo is the best bike available to competitively ride more races at one event from XC, DS, Mountain-X, to Super-DH, and even some DH courses. Just set up different forks, stems, wheels and damping to adjust to the different speeds.

    Not magic, but it may seem to be! It's very high quality design work by Ibis and DW.

  66. #66
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    Derby, ignore Rivet completely. He is a 29er zealot and until the Mojo comes in 29er flavor he wont view it with an open mind.

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    Never ever have I had a flex problem with my Mojo.
    I think you guys should put forget about the science and just ride your bikes!
    Whether it be a Turner or an Ibis, your gonna have a great ride either way!
    Thinkin way too much here! Just ride your bikes!
    Although I would prefer MY ride, to be on the Mojo! lol

  68. #68
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    Sexy and Flexy

    When you think about it, sexy and flexy is not such a bad combination...at least in the opposite sex. Having owned a few Turners and awaiting an Ibis, I feel confident that flex is not an issue in the Ibis....and "who" said that ultra stiff is such a great benefit anyways? Fifteen years ago, I wanted a new road bike and tried out one of the new, very stiff aluminum road bikes...It was so rigid it rode like a buckboard and you felt every piece of sand on the road. I went with a somewhat flexible, Italian steel frame. Recently, I bought a carbon fiber, Specialized road bike.r.....light, stiff enough but flexible enough to absorb the road...Overall a faster, bettter, and way more comfortable ride...sexy but flexy. Maybe Derby is "right on" about the benefits of the bit of flex inherent in Carbon Fiber...I mean, he has to be right about something? Besides, the hours the Ibisisans spent on computer modelling involved some work on the right amount of flex?

    bob, Vancouver Island.

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    You're comparing non-suspension road bikes to suspension mountain bikes?

    You're comparing women to mountain bikes?

  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikezilla
    ... sense of humor! ...
    Still waiting for the homers to develop one ... retro-bike riders really need it

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davide
    Still waiting for the homers to develop one ... retro-bike riders really need it
    Anything other than retro is ghey.
    "The best you've ridden is the best you know" - Paul Thede, Race Tech

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by SCUBAPRO
    Anything other than retro is ghey.
    I am not so sure ...
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    Dude, Dorthy is HAWT!
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobAustin
    When you think about it, sexy and flexy is not such a bad combination...at least in the opposite sex. Having owned a few Turners and awaiting an Ibis, I feel confident that flex is not an issue in the Ibis....and "who" said that ultra stiff is such a great benefit anyways? Fifteen years ago, I wanted a new road bike and tried out one of the new, very stiff aluminum road bikes...It was so rigid it rode like a buckboard and you felt every piece of sand on the road. I went with a somewhat flexible, Italian steel frame. Recently, I bought a carbon fiber, Specialized road bike.r.....light, stiff enough but flexible enough to absorb the road...Overall a faster, bettter, and way more comfortable ride...sexy but flexy. Maybe Derby is "right on" about the benefits of the bit of flex inherent in Carbon Fiber...I mean, he has to be right about something? Besides, the hours the Ibisisans spent on computer modelling involved some work on the right amount of flex?

    bob, Vancouver Island.
    What are you talking about?

    Lateral rigidity on your roadbike or vertical? A suspension bike would take care of those pieces of sand on the road, but nothing you're talking about relates to lateral rigidity and the ibis. Steel isn't necessarily "flexy" either, go look up the modulus numbers, it may have more designed "compliance" vertically, but again that doesn't relate to anything your saying, unless you simply don't understand materials and design I guess.

    Derby has simply lost his mind when it comes to Ibis and being a "fanboy", I like my current bikes but there are many others that I would ride and be pretty happy. Lateral rigidity and chassi rigidity is simply critical, it keeps the suspension doing what it is supposed to be doing, instead of deflecting and binding. You go look at ANY motorsports and you'll see that they design the chassis to be as rigid as possible, for handling and to allow the suspension to work efficiently. Sure, a MX swingarm is a difference size than a roadbike, because with 14" of travel you can't have a structure that would interfear with other parts of the bike, so obviously a 14" travel MX bike would be flexier than a street bike, but in BOTH cases they design the chassi to be as rigid as possible and still meet the other design requirements. Granted, the flex on the ibis may not be excessive compared to older bikes, but it's an important aspect that is addressed by most manufacturers. Trying to rationalize it is pretty funny. It's like me trying to rationalize my horst link as being more "acceptably flexy", maybe the grease and DU bushings in the pivots help to absorb some of this sideways flex? LOL. Luckily, they are bushings so the bike does remain pretty rigid, but it won't be as rigid as a non-horst link design with all the same considerations.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  75. #75
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    You go look at ANY motorsports and you'll see that they design the chassis to be as rigid as possible, for handling and to allow the suspension to work efficiently. Sure, a MX swingarm is a difference size than a roadbike, because with 14" of travel you can't have a structure that would interfear with other parts of the bike, so obviously a 14" travel MX bike would be flexier than a street bike, but in BOTH cases they design the chassi to be as rigid as possible and still meet the other design requirements.
    Totally off subject, but before PUSH I had a career in Motorsport R&D and can tell you that neither automotive nor motorcycle frames are designed that way. In fact most chassis are tweaked to have inherent flex in order to improve handling. Moto heads will remember the original aluminum frame Honda CR which by todays standards seems un-rideable. Honda in fact is on their 6th generation of this chassis and if you look closely at certain parts of the frame you'll see where material has been post machined away from things such as head tube castings in order to increase flex. Same is true with all the Moto manufactures. As for road cars, the same is true, engineers spend countless hours testing and designing in chassis movement to improve performance.

    Now, I'm not saying that all flex or movement is good, but it's not all bad either.

    Darren

  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by PUSHIND
    Totally off subject, but before PUSH I had a career in Motorsport R&D and can tell you that neither automotive nor motorcycle frames are designed that way. In fact most chassis are tweaked to have inherent flex in order to improve handling. Moto heads will remember the original aluminum frame Honda CR which by todays standards seems un-rideable. Honda in fact is on their 6th generation of this chassis and if you look closely at certain parts of the frame you'll see where material has been post machined away from things such as head tube castings in order to increase flex. Same is true with all the Moto manufactures. As for road cars, the same is true, engineers spend countless hours testing and designing in chassis movement to improve performance.

    Now, I'm not saying that all flex or movement is good, but it's not all bad either.

    Darren
    I come from an automotive design background and I can't imagine any engineer purposely designing flex into a chassis unless it's karting. Anywhere articulating suspension components are used flex is bad, it creates problems with setup repeatability, binding and wear. And the Honda frame example is baffling, those things are designed to be as rigid as possible, if they designed them to flex they'd stretch and be worthless even quicker than they already do. Getting rid of flex is the reason everybody runs upside down forks. A few years ago a couple of riders tried going back to right side up forks to add a little compliance but the handing was too noodly and they scrapped it.
    "Do not touch the trim"

  77. #77
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    I come from an automotive design background and I can't imagine any engineer purposely designing flex into a chassis unless it's karting. Anywhere articulating suspension components are used flex is bad, it creates problems with setup repeatability, binding and wear. And the Honda frame example is baffling, those things are designed to be as rigid as possible, if they designed them to flex they'd stretch and be worthless even quicker than they already do. Getting rid of flex is the reason everybody runs upside down forks. A few years ago a couple of riders tried going back to right side up forks to add a little compliance but the handing was too noodly and they scrapped it.
    I'm not referring to suspension pick up points, but the chassis as a whole. You see it in changes in webbing of components and material useage and manufacturing techniques just to name a few. As for the Honda example, I spent more than 3 hours at the track just last Sunday with one of my colleagues who's more than a decade at HRC as an engineer makes him more than qualified to comment. With moto forks, your comments are somewhat true, however inverted forks have the benefit of less unsprung mass which is what's more critical to overall performance. Again, Showa and KYB spend countless hours with the motocross companies engineering the degree of taper found in the upper tubes as well as the overlap and crown distance to increase and decrease flex.

    My comments again, were just directed at the "sum of all parts" in regards to chassis, not and individual component.

  78. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    What are you talking about?

    Lateral rigidity on your roadbike or vertical? A suspension bike would take care of those pieces of sand on the road, but nothing you're talking about relates to lateral rigidity and the ibis. Steel isn't necessarily "flexy" either, go look up the modulus numbers, it may have more designed "compliance" vertically, but again that doesn't relate to anything your saying, unless you simply don't understand materials and design I guess.
    Assuming you could build it you obviously do not want a frame that is "absolutely stiff" (why not "absolutely stiff" wheels then?).

    Other then comments like what I just made all this little discussion on "stiff" vs "compliant" with nobody even remembering to talk about "reflex" and all (none excluded) without any numbers and any theory to map those non-existent numbers on the trail is just a colossal waste of time ...

    My Mojo rides straighter then my 5-spot ... is it more or less flexy? I don't know, sure it rides better ...

  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by PUSHIND
    Again, Showa and KYB spend countless hours with the motocross companies engineering the degree of taper found in the upper tubes as well as the overlap and crown distance to increase and decrease flex.

    My comments again, were just directed at the "sum of all parts" in regards to chassis, not and individual component.
    Thank you. Exactly, designed flex is intergal of fine quality handling balance.

    Turners feel balanced too.

    - fanboy

  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by derby
    Turners feel balanced too.
    great, just when i was starting to read your threads again

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    "Honda has long pioneered the use of all-aluminum frames for streetbikes and off-road motorcycles. Each requires different construction and tuning but they often employ a collection of castings, forgings, pressings or extrusions. With previous conventional Fine DC techniques, the thinnest walls possible had been 3.5mm. With Honda's Hollow Fine DC technique an unprecedented 2.5mm wall thickness is possible, providing engineers with even greater latitude to tune frame members to specific rigidities to enhance handling."

    "Honda brought twin-spar aluminum frame technology to motocross racing with the radical 1997 CR250R. With each subsequent design generation Honda has fine-tuned its aluminum-frames, varying wall thickness of the frame spars, castings and corresponding swingarms to optimize torsional and lateral rigidity, achieve light weight, durability and precise handling performance."

    A couple of quotes from Honda's Offroad newsroom. Just a couple of examples of what is commonly found in Motorsports.

    I'd also like to point out that my comments were in regards to specifically engineered flex, not to say that because something flexes it's good.

  82. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by PUSHIND
    "Honda has long pioneered the use of all-aluminum frames for streetbikes and off-road motorcycles. Each requires different construction and tuning but they often employ a collection of castings, forgings, pressings or extrusions. With previous conventional Fine DC techniques, the thinnest walls possible had been 3.5mm. With Honda's Hollow Fine DC technique an unprecedented 2.5mm wall thickness is possible, providing engineers with even greater latitude to tune frame members to specific rigidities to enhance handling."

    "Honda brought twin-spar aluminum frame technology to motocross racing with the radical 1997 CR250R. With each subsequent design generation Honda has fine-tuned its aluminum-frames, varying wall thickness of the frame spars, castings and corresponding swingarms to optimize torsional and lateral rigidity, achieve light weight, durability and precise handling performance."

    A couple of quotes from Honda's Offroad newsroom. Just a couple of examples of what is commonly found in Motorsports.

    I'd also like to point out that my comments were in regards to specifically engineered flex, not to say that because something flexes it's good.
    Darren, please explain why the space shuttle is not made out of carbon

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    Darren, please explain why the space shuttle is not made out of carbon
    Because, between bike parts, frames and golf clubs, there's not enough left over.

  84. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by PUSHIND
    Because, between bike parts, frames and golf clubs, there's not enough left over.
    LOL...nice one.

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    I remember very well those first aluminum frames

    Quote Originally Posted by PUSHIND
    Moto heads will remember the original aluminum frame Honda CR which by todays standards seems un-rideable... Now, I'm not saying that all flex or movement is good, but it's not all bad either.

    Darren
    You are absolutely correct about the early aluminum CR's. Most all that rode them felt that they were too "harsh" feeling. And in fact they were so stiff that they cracked in certain places like head tubes and motor mounts from being too rigid.

    I think.some guys posting in this thread don't know squat.
    Quote Originally Posted by turnerbikes View Post
    Of course the easiest way to fix this is to go for a hike.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duzitall
    You are absolutely correct about the early aluminum CR's. Most all that rode them felt that they were too "harsh" feeling. And in fact they were so stiff that they cracked in certain places like head tubes and motor mounts from being too rigid.

    I think.some guys posting in this thread don't know squat.
    The fact that they cracked doesn't mean squat, it may mean that they were designed poor, but it doesn't discount rigidity.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  87. #87
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    Last edited by Alabama; 02-05-2008 at 07:04 PM.

  88. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rivet
    Like I care what someone who rides this abomination thinks. Wow, could you put more spacers under your stem.....or how about just having enough knowledge to buy the right size bike. I bet you look like a little kid ridng his dads too big bike around on that thing.
    Wow, angry much?

    Does this version of an Ibis Mojo offend your sensibilities as well?

    FatIbis.jpg

  89. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by zkampyman
    If you stick your foot on the bottom bracket and push against it, than you are measuring sidewall flexibility on the rear tire. If the bike is 'too flexible' the chain will rub against the front derailleur.

    Cheers,

    huge +1. i *think* most are misconstruing what their eyes see as frame flex when it's quite possibly rear wheel/tire flex. it took me several tries w/ my jamis dragon ss to realize that's what i was seeing. 9mm flex on the ibis? 6mm on the turner? i don't buy it, and i've never even ridden either more than 200' in a parking lot. nor do i currently favor one over the other (or really have a valid opinion of either at this point).

    ymmv...
    ride fast...take chances...

  90. #90
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    Last edited by Alabama; 02-05-2008 at 07:05 PM.

  91. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rivet
    Like I care what someone who rides this abomination thinks. Wow, could you put more spacers under your stem.....or how about just having enough knowledge to buy the right size bike. I bet you look like a little kid ridng his dads too big bike around on that thing.
    Wow. Why are you so angry? Seriously. Maybe you should go ride your bike. Do you do that, or are you too busy belittling other riders? Maybe you don't ride because no one likes you. It's okay. You can ride with me if you want. I'll even put up with whatever you feel necessary to say about my bike. I'll even buy the beer for post-ride libations in the parking lot. Hopefully that's all it would take. Anyone who is still pissed off after a good ride and a beverage of choice probably needs professional help.
    **** censorship

  92. #92
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    Scaled Composites

    Quote Originally Posted by PUSHIND
    Because, between bike parts, frames and golf clubs, there's not enough left over.
    You forgot to mention SpaceShipOne and the design of SpaceShipTwo.

    These composite things do fly into outer space these days. NASA's space shuttle with all its titanium is actually a sixties design.

  93. #93
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    You forgot to mention SpaceShipOne and the design of SpaceShipTwo.
    I wasn't being serious.....

  94. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    The fact that they cracked doesn't mean squat, it may mean that they were designed poor, but it doesn't discount rigidity.
    So ... (this is too much fun) ... is the one below too rigid or a poor design?
    Attached Images Attached Images

  95. #95
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    You do realize those are the recalled stays that Turner immediately went to the boards and behind the scenes to seek out the owners of? Even if you are a 2nd, 3rd, 4th or whatever owner, you will get a free updated stay.

    And wasn't that the pic from the thread where the owner knew about the recall, but thought everything was ok? Or was that the one where Turner even had a replacement Push shock made and shipped out to help the owner out?

    A picture can speak a thousand words, but at the same time, when there's plenty of witnesses to where they come from, they speak more about the person posting them.

  96. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davide
    So is the one below too rigid or a poor design?
    Wrong on both counts. The stays had way too much subatomic micro molecular nanoflex designed into them such that the tire bound to the chainstay on impact and thus broke it off. Newer versions of said stays are much rigiderer. BTW, I also hear carbon stays are being developed for said application to better control the controlled flex.
    "The best you've ridden is the best you know" - Paul Thede, Race Tech

  97. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by SCUBAPRO
    Wrong on both counts. The stays had way too much subatomic micro molecular nanoflex designed into them such that the tire bound to the chainstay on impact and thus broke it off. Newer versions of said stays are much rigiderer. BTW, I also hear carbon stays are being developed for said application to better control the controlled flex.

  98. #98
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    Warning to Rivet....keep the personal insults in check.
    I have removed your last comment.

    -gregg, Site Manager

  99. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davide
    So ... (this is too much fun) ... is the one below too rigid or a poor design?
    Of course, it was not designed adequately. Not sure how that is pertinent to what we are talking about but whatever.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  100. #100
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    I don't get it

    What's up Davide? You seem to have this vengence for myself and Turner Bikes that to the best of my knowledge, my company or myself has never given you reason to be such an assasin? You had a Horst Link equipped 5 Spot, compared to your Mojo you hate it. I am OK with that, the Mojo turns you on. If you ride more because you love your bike, then please ride more. But before you got the Mojo you hated that old school industrial pos 5 Spot, but you still rode it instead of sacking up, selling it and buying any number of frames available. If you ever broke a bike and we treated you poorly, or the frame did not get the travel I claimed or weighed more than I printed I could understand some animosity. I don't get it. Care to share the nugget of your hate Davide? Maybe the Forum can not only help dumb David Turner design better bikes, but maybe help you work through this hate of all things Turner Bikes. Peace.

    David Turner
    Turner Suspension Bicycles

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