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  1. #1
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    THE Titanium Gods are back: Ibis Cycles are back

    This has been planned for a while and at last, about 6 months later than planned, Ibis cycles are back in business:

    Ibis Cycles

    For the newer riders out there who have no idea who Ibis where/are have a search on the net and you'll soon discover these guys where there at the start and produced frankly the sexiest Ti frames EVER!

    Enjoy and spread the word!!!

    Joe

  2. #2
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    ibis cycles

    ooops... try this.

  3. #3
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    aaaaaaahhhh!!

    life is good.
    WTB: Bomber Z2 1 1/8 steerer, in good to excellent shape OR bomber rebuild kit.

  4. #4
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    Crazy $hit man!!!!!!!

    what great news.........

    cannot wait to see whats next.

    I hope steel diamond frames are part of the new lineup as well.

    Will

  5. #5
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    ... and if we just ... I'm sellin' both my Titus's

    I want a steel Ibis......I rode a Szasbo for 3 years. They went under about the time I wished for a Mojo. How KEWL!!!!!!!
    Idaho Transplant (closet roadie)

  6. #6
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    There is justice...

    ...in the world of bikes. Yes!

  7. #7
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    This could be very, very good!

    This is GREAT news! I hope they are down with the 29 inch wheels. I would definitely be in line for that!
    Riden' an Smilin'
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  8. #8
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    In a market where URTs are dead, soft-tails are ho-hum, and titanium bikes are being devalued by the likes of Zion, Airborne and XACD, I'm super curious as to where Ibis will be headed.
    No longer member of the bike industry nor society, so don't hassle me.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thylacine
    In a market where URTs are dead, soft-tails are ho-hum, and titanium bikes are being devalued by the likes of Zion, Airborne and XACD, I'm super curious as to where Ibis will be headed.
    hmm.. my bet: 29ers. 26 mojo ressurrected. singlespeed mojo. ti road bikes. alum. alum. cross bikes. handlebars. tires. cool funny doodads. i hope they price themselves below IF, seven and serotta. or maybe the strategy will be to reach the rich babyboomers, which will certainly exclude colker form any future ibis purchase.
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  10. #10
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    We the people ...

    I'm glad they're back & curious to see whats in store..

    also curious to see how this will(?) affect ebay pricing

  11. #11
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    Wooohooo !

    I see an Ti-IBIS-stem to fit my Jones H-bar adorned MOJO-SS in the near future.

  12. #12
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    We the people ...

    but surely you'd need a removeable face plate type stem to fit the H bar? Ibis tis bar clamp was machined from 1 lump of ti & was beautiful because of it ;D

  13. #13
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    That's what i am hoping for.

    An ibis stem with a removable Ti plate.
    And IBIS Ti-risers, a Ti-seatpost, IBIS Ti Hot-Unit, and Ti IBIS Riderhosen,
    and Ti shotglasses, and Ti coffeemugs . . . . . .

    Moots hasn't really succeeded with their Ti-beam
    if you ask me, but that's just my humble opinion.

  14. #14
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    ohhhhh.....Ti 29 Silk-Ti.

    Castellano showed one at interbike, with limited production, possibly ibis' first product? or FS 29er?

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    New question here.

    I'm wondering : Where & Who will be making them???
    The site mentions Castellano for susp. bits but nothing of WHO'S behind the torch
    Guess we'll have to wait and see in the next update they e-mail out.

  16. #16
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    uhh.,?

    Moots hasn't really succeeded with their Ti-beam
    if you ask me, but that's just my humble opinion.[/QUOTE]



    do you mean in asthetics or sales? that stem works super well and seems to sell equally as well. the shop i work at sells quite a few of them.

    but your right, asthetically the original ibis ti stems and the non-removable face clamp designs were and are still amazing. so smooth the lines. If they could incorporate that design into a removable face clamp that would be the best of both worlds.



    all for now
    nate
    "believe what you ride, not what you read" 94 WTB catalog

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by patpend2000
    ohhhhh.....Ti 29 Silk-Ti.

    Castellano showed one at interbike, with limited production, possibly ibis' first product? or FS 29er?

    Those were welded by Steve Potts... Im not sure if Ibis will have that bike back 1-1, since the patent is Castellano's... perhaps he lets Ibis market them under a license. I guess we'll be nibbling fingernails till InterBike....
    No, I am not retro.... I am way ahead of my time...

    "...though a lot of marijuana was smoked in the early days of mountain bike development, not all of the riders were potsmoking hippies... " Frank J. Berto

    Who's that f#$king Doug Lexington?!

  18. #18
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    ladies and gentleman, ibis is definitely back (in carbon)!

    ibis mojo carbon




    ibis silk carbon



    check out: www.ibisbicycles.com

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by rasaldul
    ladies and gentleman, ibis is definitely back (in carbon)!

    ibis mojo carbon




    ibis silk carbon



    check out: www.ibisbicycles.com
    The road frame looks tight. I'm not too sure about a 5" travel carbon frame. My 5" bike gets hammered because that's what a long travel bike is made for, not sure I'd trust a lightweight carbon frame in those situations. I could just see that boulder that bounced off my downtube the other day wreaking havoc on that thing.
    Last edited by Rivet; 09-28-2005 at 02:56 PM.
    "Do not touch the trim"

  20. #20
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    I have to say I am massively disappointed. They should have picked a new name as that thing is everything a mojo isn't...

  21. #21
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    i have to hang my head low and agree with lucifer. guess i'm gonna be holding onto my steel ibises a bit longer than i originally thought (hoped?)

  22. #22
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    It makes sense that they would go all out carbon for the re launch. As much as I am dissapointed as the rest of you ibisites, I see that steel frames are not going to keep them in business at the level they are striving for. The way Im looking at it is lets hope these 2 bikes totally sell out and that the demand is sooo big that they are able to broaden out and do the cool neo-retro thing for the hard-core from wayback followers.

    Like a new version of the scorcher, a 29er steel mojo, etc......who doesent want one of those?

    Just think if all they unveiled at interbike was the products from yesteryear (steel Mojo HT, etc.....) we would all be complaining "where's the new stuff?" Lets just hope that this is indeed their strategy and that we will see steel Ibis' once more after they have hit the ground running with some super hi tek carbon offerings, that really pull in the new generation of mtb customers.

    I am a bit dissapointed that they did not introduce a carbon HT version of the mojo to go along with the FS model, I think that should have been a fairly simple thing to pull off considering how much simpler a ht is to design than a fs design.

    and I agree that bike should have a new name, Mojo does not really fit.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by ti_pin_man
    This has been planned for a while and at last, about 6 months later than planned, Ibis cycles are back in business:

    Ibis Cycles

    For the newer riders out there who have no idea who Ibis where/are have a search on the net and you'll soon discover these guys where there at the start and produced frankly the sexiest Ti frames EVER!

    Enjoy and spread the word!!!

    Joe
    oh great, another round of innane crap from these bastards

  24. #24
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    Carbon 5x5? Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rivet
    I'm not too sure about a 5" travel carbon frame. My 5" bike gets hammered because that's what a long travel bike is made for, not sure I'd trust a lightweight carbon frame in those situations.
    Agree completely.

    I think carbon MTB cranks are stupid too.

    At some point, durability becomes more important than weight. I'd think by the time you step up to a 5x5 frame, you'd have long since reached that conclusion.

    I think they should make a full carbon fiber shovel. I know I get tired when I am shoveling gravel, and a lightweight shovel would make the task a lot easier.
    Don't believe everything that you think.

  25. #25
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    If it's made for 150mm forks, why's it got a float on it?

    I like it, if they make it, I would trust it. Sure, it won't have the lifespan of Ti, but I bet it rides great.
    You can knock them, but why live in the past, you can do that on the retro forum, ooops, that's where we are isn't it?

  26. #26
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    Why does everyone hate carbon so much?

    Quote Originally Posted by frank n. beans
    Agree completely.

    I think carbon MTB cranks are stupid too.

    At some point, durability becomes more important than weight. I'd think by the time you step up to a 5x5 frame, you'd have long since reached that conclusion.

    I think they should make a full carbon fiber shovel. I know I get tired when I am shoveling gravel, and a lightweight shovel would make the task a lot easier.
    I own a Kestrel Edge (carbon front triangle andcarbon FSR rear end) w/ 4.5" travel and have put it through its paces at 24HoA, Downieville, etc. It appears to be holding up just great. Sure, I've only had it for around 6 months, only weigh 140 lbs, and don't abuse my bikes. But I've also owned a Kestrel CS-X hardtail that has held up over the years without any issues.

    I think a common misconception about carbon is that its super light at the cost of durability. My Edge frame + rear shock weighs in at 5.5 lbs, which I think is an average to slightly above average weight for a 4.5" travel frame. Its hard to tell if that extra weight is going to durability or what, but hey, Kestrel is the one offering a lifetime warranty on their frames and not _______ (insert your favorite non carbon dualie manufacturer). BTW, if you're wondering why I went with a Kestrel Edge instead of say, a Stumpjumper Stump 120 FSR Pro, its because the Kestrel Edge + custom build kit came out to be slightly cheaper than the FSR (thanks to eBay).

    But I digress. I understand how some people are disappointed with Ibis taking a detour from their steel and/or Ti roots. However, I'm all for innovation and new technologies and I'm just glad Ibis is coming back, period.

    I'll be first in line for a carbon fiber handjob.
    Last edited by burndtjamb; 09-28-2005 at 05:12 PM.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by burndtjamb
    I own a Kestrel Edge (carbon front triangle andcarbon FSR rear end) w/ 4.5" travel and have put it through its paces at 24HoA, Downieville, etc. It appears to be holding up just great. Sure, I've only had it for around 6 months, only weigh 140 lbs, and don't abuse my bikes. But I've also owned a Kestrel CS-X hardtail that has held up over the years without any issues.

    I think a common misconception about carbon is that its super light at the cost of durability. My Edge frame + rear shock weighs in at 5.5 lbs, which I think is an average to slightly above average weight for a 4.5" travel frame. Its hard to tell if that extra weight is going to durability or what, but hey, Kestrel is the one offering a lifetime warranty on their frames and not _______ (insert your favorite non carbon dualie manufacturer). BTW, if you're wondering why I went with a Kestrel Edge instead of say, a Stumpjumper Stump 120 FSR Pro, its because the Kestrel Edge + custom build kit came out to be slightly cheaper than the FSR (thanks to eBay).

    But I digress. I understand how some people are disappointed with Ibis taking a detour from their steel and/or Ti roots. However, I'm all for innovation and new technologies and I'm just glad Ibis is coming back, period.

    I'll be first in line for a carbon fiber handjob.
    i'm not disapointed because they took a detour from the past.. i feel sorry for them as i see them producing something that's out of touch w/ mtn bike avant garde.. singelspeed, 29er and not very expensive is where it's at.. . btw, how much is that ibis carbon road? why buy one instead of a look? or a colnago, pinarello etc..?
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  28. #28
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    Hello? Taiwan? Is that you? Chuck Ibis here. My welder found a new job and I need a bike. Actually, I need two. Remember the original Kestrel full suspension bike from 1989? I wanna jazz that idea up slightly. Here, I"m faxing through a napkin I drew something on. Got it? Good. Ok I also need a road bike. What? No, I don't care about that; I didn't have any more napkins. Send something good. Make it carbon. Great. When can you get them here? I've got a booth at Interbike, so be quick.

    How depressing.
    Show me your Toads. Old Brodies, too.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by burndtjamb
    I think a common misconception about carbon is that its super light at the cost of durability. My Edge frame + rear shock weighs in at 5.5 lbs, which I think is an average to slightly above average weight for a 4.5" travel frame. Its hard to tell if that extra weight is going to durability or what, but hey, Kestrel is the one offering a lifetime warranty on their frames and not _______ (insert your favorite non carbon dualie manufacturer).
    Well... carbon just freaks me out. Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought the big no-no with carbon was getting it scratched and gouged. That is what scares me about it when used in a MTB setting.
    Don't believe everything that you think.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by GonaSovereign
    Hello? Taiwan? Is that you? Chuck Ibis here. My welder found a new job and I need a bike. Actually, I need two. Remember the original Kestrel full suspension bike from 1989? I wanna jazz that idea up slightly. Here, I"m faxing through a napkin I drew something on. Got it? Good. Ok I also need a road bike. What? No, I don't care about that; I didn't have any more napkins. Send something good. Make it carbon. Great. When can you get them here? I've got a booth at Interbike, so be quick.

    How depressing.

    Maybe Chuck just called Giant and had em run off some more carbon crap. They sure have the carbon thing dialed in there in China. Private labelling gone wrong...

    Your post was spot on in my opinion.
    THIS SPACE FOR RENT

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrBikbldr
    Private labelling gone wrong.
    That's the issue. Carbon can be an amazing material with which to build a frame, and I think many of the the best (road) bikes are made with it. What I find sad is a legitimate innovator like Ibis returned from the ashes, only to market a Taiwanese me-too bike.

    Taiwan has carbon nailed, but interestingly, a lot of the stuff coming out of the east is not really carbon fibre. It's a layer of carbon over top of fibreglass. It's true. Real, handmade-by-the-company-with-the-name-on-the-downtube bikes made with high modulus carbon (Calfee, Look, Time, Colnago, Parlee) cost a lot of money.
    Show me your Toads. Old Brodies, too.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by GonaSovereign
    Hello? Taiwan? Is that you? Chuck Ibis here. My welder found a new job and I need a bike. Actually, I need two. Remember the original Kestrel full suspension bike from 1989? I wanna jazz that idea up slightly. Here, I"m faxing through a napkin I drew something on. Got it? Good. Ok I also need a road bike. What? No, I don't care about that; I didn't have any more napkins. Send something good. Make it carbon. Great. When can you get them here? I've got a booth at Interbike, so be quick.

    How depressing.

    That was my first guess too. I am thinking the stickers are the only thing ibis on it.
    Much like 2002 guns and roses a name just isn't enough....

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by GonaSovereign
    That's

    Taiwan has carbon nailed, but interestingly, a lot of the stuff coming out of the east is not really carbon fibre. It's a layer of carbon over top of fibreglass.
    This has been a growing concern with the recent carbon fibre shortage. Enough so that most manufacturers are doing random testing on there carbon suppliers stuff from the east. Watch out for the inexpensive carbon stuff these days.
    "Do not touch the trim"

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by burndtjamb
    I own a Kestrel Edge (carbon front triangle andcarbon FSR rear end) w/ 4.5" travel and have put it through its paces at 24HoA, Downieville, etc. It appears to be holding up just great. Sure, I've only had it for around 6 months, only weigh 140 lbs, and don't abuse my bikes. But I've also owned a Kestrel CS-X hardtail that has held up over the years without any issues.

    I think a common misconception about carbon is that its super light at the cost of durability. My Edge frame + rear shock weighs in at 5.5 lbs, which I think is an average to slightly above average weight for a 4.5" travel frame. Its hard to tell if that extra weight is going to durability or what, but hey, Kestrel is the one offering a lifetime warranty on their frames and not _______ (insert your favorite non carbon dualie manufacturer). BTW, if you're wondering why I went with a Kestrel Edge instead of say, a Stumpjumper Stump 120 FSR Pro, its because the Kestrel Edge + custom build kit came out to be slightly cheaper than the FSR (thanks to eBay).

    But I digress. I understand how some people are disappointed with Ibis taking a detour from their steel and/or Ti roots. However, I'm all for innovation and new technologies and I'm just glad Ibis is coming back, period.

    I'll be first in line for a carbon fiber handjob.
    The Kestrel is a pretty cool bike but it's not what I consider a trail bike. 71į head angle and the inability to lower the seat for steep tech stuff put this frame fully into the longer travel XC terrritory, almost a FS XC race bike like my old NRS. My trail bike takes a beating and I've seen watch a notched carbon tube failure looks like, not pretty. A carbon hardtail would have been sweet, maybe with an eccentric BB for SSing, yep the first ultra light carbon 29'er singlespeed, that would have gotten plenty of people drooling.
    "Do not touch the trim"

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by yetisurly
    oh great, another round of innane crap from these bastards
    Right on.

  36. #36
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    Rant on composites, long blah blah blah

    Disclaimer....... I currently ride a 5.5 inch travel AL bike, my prior bike (for 5 years) was a custom steel IF hartail. I have ridden many Ibis steel and Ti bikes. I know you "old-timers" have a point, but............

    I'm not so sure I agree with all your opinions on this bike in particular. As an aerospace engineer working in the aerospace composites industry this bike looks a bit different than any FS carbon bike I have seen to date. It looks like Ibis has taken the same eye for detail and quality they used on the previous generation of metal bikes and focused it on a new material. Below are a few reasons why this bike is different from the rest in a pure design perspective IMHO and why it will probably change some peoples view of carbon mountain bikes. I still need to hear rider feedback, but if geometry is good and the DW link is designed and set up correct it is pretty likely it will ride very well.

    First off an analogy. High performance aircraft (fighter-jets) are relpacing metal components with composites more and more with every new design. The F-22 raptor is over 35% composite, the new Joint Strike Fighter is going to be over 50% composite. Why? There is no better material pound for pound than composites when designed and manufactured properly. Formula 1 cars, rally cars, (soon consumer cars &trucks & SUV's for fuel effeciency) and other high performace vehicles are also part of the same trend. The composite fighter jet parts I deal with are some of the most heavily engineered and well manufactured parts in the industry. Aircraft can now outperform the human pilot flying them, pilots can not handle the g-forces new aircraft are designed to fly at, why else would unmannned aircraft be such a large focus of the military (the JSF will most likely be the last manned fighter jet). Damage tolerance is very important in new fighter jets, loads and stresses are high, at $30 million a pop you don't want them to "break down" with a $500,000 load of high explosives under the wing, the fatigue would cause metals to fail much sooner and the weight would be much higher.

    This bike looks like a new animal in this industry. First of all I am not totally sure some of the information I have found about this bike is correct but here is what I think based on what I have "heard".

    Design point #1. Boring summary of composite materials (but in bike talk). This bike is rumored to use a thermoplastic (TP) resin prepreg instead of typical thermosets (epoxies). So whats this mean to you? The Ibis will have much better Impact strength than previous composite bikes. Most all previous examples of composite bikes in this industry use thermoset resin. Thermoset resins microcrack and fail with minimal impacts, even toughened thermoset resins are poor in impact compared to thermoplastics. Think of thermoplastics as tougher, chewy, stretchy in comparison to really stiff and brittle (like glass) thermosets. When you smack a thermoset, it shatters, thermoplastic does not because it is only semi-crystaline and absorbs the impact as heat and deflects/deforms. One down side of thermoplastics is that they are not completely crystaline like epoxies, they are semi-crystaline and when heat is applied the material becomes amorphous, i.e. it melts (with T above glass transition temperature (Tg) of the resin), when the resin melts the fibers loose their load transfer method and buckle, but I'm sure the thermoplastic used on the Ibis has a Tg well above 300 F. When cooled the themoplastic resin "freezes" for lack of a better word and recrystalizes, with thermoplastics this reaction is reversable and repeatable like freezing and melting water, thermosets are one shot one direction reactions only. In a composite, the fibers carry 90+% of the laod. The resins job is transfer and distrubte the load through all the fibers as evenly as possible (controled by careful lay-up orientation). Whats kept thermoplastic away to this point (others have been using them for a little bit) is the fact they are high viscosity at melt, and it is hard to wet out the fibers (surround them with resin so load is transfered properly). But new prepregging techniques and manufacturing processing techniques have eliminated this, Lets hope Ibis used these. Thermoplastics also usually have a lower modulus than thermosets (are not as stiff as thermosets). But so what, if wet out properly the fibers carry most all of the load and the fiber modulus (stiffness) and orientation dictates the over all composite stiffness, the trade for increased impact strength and toughness with the TP is worth the trade in a decrease in resin modulus IMHO for a bike. In theory this bike should take an impact as almost as well if not better than any metal bike.

    Design point #2. Part consolidation. The DW link design lends it self to composites very well, two large peices (frame and swingarm) connected by two small metal links. The frame and swingarm of a bike lend themselves well to one peice, smooth "organic" load tranfering shapes. As long as the person designing and making the frame knows what they are doing and manufacturing is done well this bike will be very tough and strong and stiff. The frame on the Ibis looks well thought out from a composites design perspective IMHO, it should distrbute high loads well and the front and rear triangles are probably stiffer than the aluminum equivalent. And the aluminum equivalent would take heavy tube geometry modification (hydroforming, etc..) and probably wouldn't cost much less.

    I am eager to hear rider feedback, and if the ride and gemetry check out I am ready to sell my Intesne 5.5 for one of these next year, at under $2000 this might be the next big thing.

    Sorry for the long blathering nerdy rant, but I am excited about this bike. Hopefully it is the carbon break though that is advertised every few years in the past for real this time.

    B
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  37. #37
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    Those definitely look retro

    ...in a 1994 Kestral sort of way. They really look like old school carbon bikes.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by tl1
    ...in a 1994 Kestral sort of way. They really look like old school carbon bikes.
    Yeah, but Kestrel was onto the right idea with composites back then, buy shaping the structure in that way you distribute the load through the composite skins more effeciently with less stress risers than when you make a "black aluminum" or "black steel" tubular design that tends to concetrate stresses at the tube junctions (BB, headtube, etc..).

    If what I heard is correct the composite materials used in this design will be what sets this apart for other composite bikes. It's all about making a composite mountain bike that can handle impacts, and thermoplastics is the way to go in that regard. I hope what I heard is correct.

    B
    When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro....

  39. #39
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    IBIS=Tiawanese crap?

    Does not look like real Ibis to me. Tiawanese carbon and integrated headsets? I could walk over to the Tiawanese pavilian and make the same bike myself.
    Safe to say that Chuck is kicked out of SOPWAMTOS.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by bootsie_cat
    Does not look like real Ibis to me. Tiawanese carbon and integrated headsets? I could walk over to the Tiawanese pavilian and make the same bike myself.
    Safe to say that Chuck is kicked out of SOPWAMTOS.
    One definition of insanity is trying the same thing over and over and expecting different results. Obviously the old Ibis steel and Ti business method did not work out. So a different approach has been taken this time around. It looks to me like they are applying the same eye for details to a new material. I may be in the minority here but I am excited about this bike.

    Has it been confirmed that this bike is made in China? There are is a lot of high end innovative composites work going on in the us and europe right now.

    B
    When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro....

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by bootsie_cat
    Does not look like real Ibis to me. Tiawanese carbon and integrated headsets? I could walk over to the Tiawanese pavilian and make the same bike myself.
    Safe to say that Chuck is kicked out of SOPWAMTOS.
    I think that is a safe bet.

    Re: Yeltsen's rant. I don't think anyone will deny that carbon has the highest stiffness to weight of any frame material. Where it is lacking is resliance to damage from point impacts such as a rock in a crash. Steel, titanium, aluminaum, and scandium all dent. It is a hard pill to swallow that a $2-3k frame can be lost in a relatively minor crash if a rock hits the right spot. All frames are subject to this, but carbon much more so.

    Thermoplastics have been used in the bike industry before but never proved as stiff as epoxy composites and frames using them tended to be on the heavy side. Companies such as LP composites still make thermoplastic parts. Their bars are my all time favorties ( haven't tried the Jones or Midge yet). If the weight aspect of themoplastics can be addressed, maybe they'll prove to be the material they promised to be ten years ago. What thermoplastics offer over epoxy components is a malleability that metal frames already have which will go a long way to giving the frames crash survivability. It could prove to be the best of both worlds or more marketing hype.

    As you say, the reviews from riders will say a lot. I will give a thermoplastic frame a shot where I would pass on an epoxy composite frames just for the properties of the material.

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boy named SSue
    I think that is a safe bet.

    Re: Yeltsen's rant. I don't think anyone will deny that carbon has the highest stiffness to weight of any frame material. Where it is lacking is resliance to damage from point impacts such as a rock in a crash. Steel, titanium, aluminaum, and scandium all dent. It is a hard pill to swallow that a $2-3k frame can be lost in a relatively minor crash if a rock hits the right spot. All frames are subject to this, but carbon much more so.

    Thermoplastics have been used in the bike industry before but never proved as stiff as epoxy composites and frames using them tended to be on the heavy side. Companies such as LP composites still make thermoplastic parts. Their bars are my all time favorties ( haven't tried the Jones or Midge yet). If the weight aspect of themoplastics can be addressed, maybe they'll prove to be the material they promised to be ten years ago. What thermoplastics offer over epoxy components is a malleability that metal frames already have which will go a long way to giving the frames crash survivability. It could prove to be the best of both worlds or more marketing hype.

    As you say, the reviews from riders will say a lot. I will give a thermoplastic frame a shot where I would pass on an epoxy composite frames just for the properties of the material.
    Regarding impacts. I have seen a shifter pod damage (poked a 1"x1" hole) a carbon top tube in a crash. A former employee of Kestrel was called and the repair was made for $50 if I recall. Real quick, real easy and supposedly stronger than before. The repair looked very nice and if it wasnt originally painted the repair would have been real hard to see.

    Just some info as we (some of us reluctantly ) travel into this new carbon age.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boy named SSue
    I think that is a safe bet.

    Re: Yeltsen's rant. I don't think anyone will deny that carbon has the highest stiffness to weight of any frame material. Where it is lacking is resliance to damage from point impacts such as a rock in a crash. Steel, titanium, aluminaum, and scandium all dent. It is a hard pill to swallow that a $2-3k frame can be lost in a relatively minor crash if a rock hits the right spot. All frames are subject to this, but carbon much more so.

    Thermoplastics have been used in the bike industry before but never proved as stiff as epoxy composites and frames using them tended to be on the heavy side. Companies such as LP composites still make thermoplastic parts. Their bars are my all time favorties ( haven't tried the Jones or Midge yet). If the weight aspect of themoplastics can be addressed, maybe they'll prove to be the material they promised to be ten years ago. What thermoplastics offer over epoxy components is a malleability that metal frames already have which will go a long way to giving the frames crash survivability. It could prove to be the best of both worlds or more marketing hype.

    As you say, the reviews from riders will say a lot. I will give a thermoplastic frame a shot where I would pass on an epoxy composite frames just for the properties of the material.
    Agreed. I think what causes the weight problem with most thermoplastic composites produced to date is the fact that the resin viscosity at melt is so high to get proper wet-out a higher resin volume is often used, a higher resin content also gives the parts a better cosmetic surface finish which is important when consumers are dropping $100's or $1000's on a carbon frame or component. With a resin rich composite you lose stiffness and gain weight becasue there is more soft resin than stiff fiber (although some thermopastic resins are lighter than epoxies and the carbon fiber itself). If someone could afford to make a PEEK/carbon or PEKK/carbon frame, I guarantee it would blow the doors off any metal bike. But PEEK (polyetheretherketone) resin cost's as much as silver by weight and PEKK (polyetherketoneketone) is only slightly less expensive. PPS (polyphenylene Sulfide) might be the most cost effective high crystalininty TP resin available that processes at low enough temperatures to be used to make a bike. Ibis, if you read this I would be tempted to pay up for a test bike with these materials.

    I'll be watching this bike closely for a year. If it looks good at that point I'll put my $$ where my mouth is.

    B
    When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro....

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    So get one

    Order one up. Then you will know how bad an idea an integrated headset is on a mountian bike.
    At least WTB gave up on the bike thing when Steve Potts left. They could have gone to Taiwan and got some crap made with their name on it.

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by bootsie_cat
    Order one up. Then you will know how bad an idea an integrated headset is on a mountian bike.
    At least WTB gave up on the bike thing when Steve Potts left. They could have gone to Taiwan and got some crap made with their name on it.
    A little bitter huh?

    Like I said, I still will wait and see before I drop my $$. I agree about the integrated headsets, they suck. But some clever machining can probably work around it if I choose to try one.

    Again, can you confirm this bike is made in China or Taiwan? I suspect it could be at $1900 but hope not.

    B
    When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro....

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by bootsie_cat
    They could have gone to Taiwan and got some crap made with their name on it.
    Like WTB's current parts range?

  47. #47
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    I have to disagree with all of you...if you actually SAW the Ibis's in person, you wouldn't be griping about them.

    DEAD SEXY!

    And I'm a committed Steel guy.

    rb

  48. #48
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    at least the "new" "mojo" looks like it has the same geom. of the hardtail. i see a 135 stem in the picture.
    ok.. i give in on all the high tech possibly built in both frames.. but i see no soul. i know.. soul means bankrupcy most of the times but still.. soul is what i buy w/ bikes. otherwise i ride a car.
    WTB: Bomber Z2 1 1/8 steerer, in good to excellent shape OR bomber rebuild kit.

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by colker1
    at least the "new" "mojo" looks like it has the same geom. of the hardtail. i see a 135 stem in the picture.
    ok.. i give in on all the high tech possibly built in both frames.. but i see no soul. i know.. soul means bankrupcy most of the times but still.. soul is what i buy w/ bikes. otherwise i ride a car.
    Only metal frames that are welded, lugged or brazed in the US can have soul? I guarantee there is 10 times more human touch labor in that carbon frame than any metal bike. It also takes an equally if not more skilled person to lay up, bag/mold, cure, post cure, and inspect a high end carbon bike as it does to weld, sand, and paint a high end ti bike, in china or in california, it doesn't matter, skill is skill, although being a US composites person I would prefer to see it done here.

    If I post two different Ti welds, one from china and one from the US, do any of you "soul" riders think you can pick out which is which? How about this, I'll track down a US Ti bike and a China Ti bike and bring them into work and NDI (non-destructive inspection) the welds and let you know how full of crap you all are.

    Can anyone confirm where these frames are made?

    B
    When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro....

  50. #50
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    bitter?

    I am not bitter at all. The last Ibis I owned was a 1" headset Mojo with a handjob. I still see it around town once in a while.
    In reality, Ibis was on the skids since they left Sebastopol. For that matter, when Wes Williams moved to Colorado. Santa Rosa and Montana Ibis' were not really up to snuff.
    The old Ibis was a cool bro company with a sense of humor that made unique handmade american products.. How does cool and bro work with Taiwan and carbon?
    I'm just sayin...

  51. #51
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    Think about it logically, though

    Taiwan is producing the best bikes in the world right now, at a price that is way more competitive than any one out there.

    Fact is, the mountain bike market is demanding a viable 5-6" all-round bike and carbon, as anyone at interbike will tell you, is THE material of choice this year.

    I think you could count on one hand how many single-speed-29'er rigid retro-cool bikes would sell from a new "improved" ibis.

    If you guys want Ibis to gout of business for a third time just because you're having trouble finding a frame they built 15 years ago, or because you want some kind of freak-show steel bike that only you and 4 other riders would bother spending that kind of money on, you'll likely end up disappointed.

    There are plenty of custom steel and Ti builders out there that would be happy to make a steel ibis clone for you for about $2000. Check out Hairy Gary in Spokane, for starters.

    Also, I find it ironic, you guys slamming Ibis for turning their back on their roots and soul by turning to carbon, and then saying that you long for the days when Ibis was a soulful Ti builder...They were steel builders for a heck of a lot longer than they did Ti...so if you long for the old days, it's a little hypocritical to slam them for "selling out" with carbon, when Ti and Aluminum did that, according to your criteria, a while ago.

    To me, the bikes are awesome, and I'd love to have one along side of my Mountain Trials any day!

    rb

  52. #52
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    I never really worshipped ibis for their hardtails. I always saw them as playing second fiddle to fats to be perfectly honest. But their suspension designs were the only ones that ever tempted me to go dually. Maybe it was all john castellano but the bow ti and silk ti were just f'in brilliant. The szazbo was damn skippy too.

  53. #53
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    from the framebuilders forum

    there's been a lively debate about ibis and carbon fiber there too. This is a posting from frame builder james morikawa. thought people might find interesting.


    I've built steel, and full carbon frames.

    I can say it takes me, more technical skill to build a tig-welded steel
    frame, as compared to building a carbon fiber one.

    I have to be a good machinist, and welder to create the joints on a
    steel frame. Especially working with such tubes as Ultra Foco . . . all
    that super light, hard stuff. It took me a lot of practice, time, and
    money to be able to tig-weld with confidence. One also has to learn to
    weld in sequence to control for heat distortion. If you don't have
    someone there to teach you, you got to learn my "trial and error" as I
    did. That's time, money, and a lot of practice. There's not much
    room to conpensate for errors. I feel it takes a lot more skill to work
    with steel. A lot more. Not that easy, to end up with is an aligned
    frame. I mean, wheel rim centered between the stays, seat-tube in
    alignment, head-tube in alignment, wheels tracking in alignment,
    head/seat angles as specified with no variation. I'm not talking about
    just a pretty looking frame, I'm talking about a truely aligned frame.
    I've come across very few exellently aligned steel, aluminum, and ti
    frames, well after I put some of my alignment tools to them. That
    includes ones I've built.

    In this day and age, I'm able to purchase carbon tubes, and preformed
    carbon stays. This stuff miters (cuts) like butter. So easy, and fast.
    I mean fast. I never have to worry about "heat distortion", because
    there's hardly no heat involved. I don't need a tig-torch, or any
    welding equipment, nor the skills. I use the hand-lay up process for
    bonding carbon joints. It's a bit messy, and takes me more time, but
    it could be easily learned, nothing technically difficult to do. I
    think it could be taught to anyone. As for tig-welding . . . I don't
    think it could be learned by just anyone. Carbon-fiber bonding . . . "a
    piece ot cake" . . . just freakig messy, gooey, and a bit time
    consuming. I don't take much pride in the skills I needed to make one.
    Gee, and darn . . . I don't ever have to use my "hard won"
    welding/machinist's skills. And so easy to end up with a excellently
    well aligned frame.

    Then there's all these cyclists that praise carbon-fiber. It's light.
    It's very strong. It's road dampening, all kinds of pluses. I have to
    say I do agree with them. It's a very good material for a road frame .
    . . I think the best for full-on competing. I love it myself.
    Wonderful stuff . . . to ride on, espicially long rides. And it
    marketed, and sold alot.

    But I hate when people expected, or think that a steel frame is
    "suppose" to be cheaper, or should be sold for less. Just the
    thought, "It's steel. It's suppose to be cheaper" . . . I hate when
    people think that way. It's so darn general.

    I realize a time ago, most cyclist just don't know how difficult it is
    create a good steel frame . . . a good aligned one, one with tight
    miters, beautiful welds, and so on. A lot of technical skill involved.
    I think only another framebuilder, and steel-smart cyclists can really
    see this.

    Sickening to me that I could charge much more for a carbon-frame, and
    people are more willing to pay it! Because, I've always thought my
    steel frames were worth much more . . . they took me a lot more
    "hard-won" technical skill to make them. Doesn't neccessarily make them
    a better performing product. What joke on me . . . got to laugh at
    myself.


    These are just my personal opinions, and nothing else.

    Darn!

    James

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by lml1x
    I can say it takes me, more technical skill to build a tig-welded steel
    frame, as compared to building a carbon fiber one...

    In this day and age, I'm able to purchase carbon tubes, and preformed
    carbon stays. This stuff miters (cuts) like butter. So easy, and fast.
    I mean fast. I never have to worry about "heat distortion", because
    there's hardly no heat involved. I don't need a tig-torch, or any
    welding equipment, nor the skills. I use the hand-lay up process for
    bonding carbon joints. It's a bit messy, and takes me more time, but
    it could be easily learned, nothing technically difficult to do. I
    think it could be taught to anyone. As for tig-welding . . . I don't
    think it could be learned by just anyone. Carbon-fiber bonding . . . "a
    piece ot cake" . . . just freakig messy, gooey, and a bit time
    consuming. I don't take much pride in the skills I needed to make one.
    Gee, and darn . . . I don't ever have to use my "hard won"
    welding/machinist's skills. And so easy to end up with a excellently
    well aligned frame.
    ...

    I realize a time ago, most cyclist just don't know how difficult it is
    create a good steel frame . . . a good aligned one, one with tight
    miters, beautiful welds, and so on. A lot of technical skill involved.
    I think only another framebuilder, and steel-smart cyclists can really
    see this.
    Yes, this is the easy way of building a frame. Simplistic materials substitution in this case indeed requires a skill level barely worth mentioning. It also yields frames barely worth mentioning, which is why no one who builds composite frames builds them in that way.
    Nothing left to lose, & half mad.

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bortis Yelltzen
    Only metal frames that are welded, lugged or brazed in the US can have soul? I guarantee there is 10 times more human touch labor in that carbon frame than any metal bike. It also takes an equally if not more skilled person to lay up, bag/mold, cure, post cure, and inspect a high end carbon bike as it does to weld, sand, and paint a high end ti bike, in china or in california, it doesn't matter, skill is skill, although being a US composites person I would prefer to see it done here.

    If I post two different Ti welds, one from china and one from the US, do any of you "soul" riders think you can pick out which is which? How about this, I'll track down a US Ti bike and a China Ti bike and bring them into work and NDI (non-destructive inspection) the welds and let you know how full of crap you all are.

    Can anyone confirm where these frames are made?

    B
    soul is very hard to define and 99.99% of it is BS BUT.. that 00.01% is a strong mojo when you ride the trails.
    i remeber ibis telling just say no to freeride bikes and a big yes to hardtails. why? because a hardtail is not about faster, cushier, techno.. it's about simple, groove, all around. the new mojo is a freeride bike, made in carbon. i like steel, i like banging my nail on the top tube and hearing the bell sound. i like painting, i like classic, i like perennial. when the new mojo becomes obsolete, i'll still be riding a steel hardtail. that's soul..
    WTB: Bomber Z2 1 1/8 steerer, in good to excellent shape OR bomber rebuild kit.

  56. #56
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    wow...

    how can something so cool be so lame.

    i've always wanted a mojo, but not that one. i like carbon road bikes, and all, but most duallys don't last very long where i live, due to 9 months of rain and muck each year. wouldn't want any carbon mtb here either. seen too many break from falling on them in a crash. seen too many broken thermoplastic bikes, too, working at riteway/gt back during the days when they built a thermoplastic bike.

    i was in a shop today, and found an old NOS ibis stem. it was one of those xtr pewter colored jobs that they built in the mid 90's. nice piece. almost bought it as a shelf orniment. it was about a 130 x 10 just like you would need on a bike in my size. nostalgia.

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by flyingsuperpetis
    Yes, this is the easy way of building a frame. Simplistic materials substitution in this case indeed requires a skill level barely worth mentioning. It also yields frames barely worth mentioning, which is why no one who builds composite frames builds them in that way.
    You beat me to it. To call what Parlee or Calfee do simplistic is to show a complete lack of understanding of true carbon craftsmanship.
    "Do not touch the trim"

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by olds_cool
    how can something so cool be so lame.

    i've always wanted a mojo, but not that one. i like carbon road bikes, and all, but most duallys don't last very long where i live, due to 9 months of rain and muck each year. wouldn't want any carbon mtb here either. seen too many break from falling on them in a crash. seen too many broken thermoplastic bikes, too, working at riteway/gt back during the days when they built a thermoplastic bike.

    i was in a shop today, and found an old NOS ibis stem. it was one of those xtr pewter colored jobs that they built in the mid 90's. nice piece. almost bought it as a shelf orniment. it was about a 130 x 10 just like you would need on a bike in my size. nostalgia.
    the aluminum stem? it was cheap.. but i wouldn't mind having one of those.. how$?
    WTB: Bomber Z2 1 1/8 steerer, in good to excellent shape OR bomber rebuild kit.

  59. #59
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    memo

    Quote Originally Posted by bootsie_cat
    SOPWAMTOS.


    I never owned an Ibis back in the day and doubt I will a new one (unless they come out with the 29" recumbent) but it is their dream and I hope it works out for them.

    Another sighting at Interbike was of Wes Williams who used to build for Scot and closed down his own shop a few years back. It is hard to get the biz out of your system I guess. Perhaps some made by machine in Austin bikes will be forthcoming?
    A bike by any other name is still a bike.

  60. #60
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    Confirmed

    on Ibis' website that the frames are made in China....

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbexx
    on Ibis' website that the frames are made in China....
    Where? Please post a link. I can't find it on the new Ibis site.

    Thanks,
    B
    When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro....

  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by GonaSovereign
    That's the issue. Carbon can be an amazing material with which to build a frame, and I think many of the the best (road) bikes are made with it. What I find sad is a legitimate innovator like Ibis returned from the ashes, only to market a Taiwanese me-too bike.

    Taiwan has carbon nailed, but interestingly, a lot of the stuff coming out of the east is not really carbon fibre. It's a layer of carbon over top of fibreglass. It's true. Real, handmade-by-the-company-with-the-name-on-the-downtube bikes made with high modulus carbon (Calfee, Look, Time, Colnago, Parlee) cost a lot of money.
    GonaSovereign, I'm afraid you don't know what you are talking about, and before you decide to disparage something that people have sweated over for 1000's of hours, mortgaged theirs homes for, and risked their careers for I would suggest that you do a little research.

    I welcome any and all constructive criticism, but some of your comments are so ludicrous that it's laughable. Please point me in the direction of the "Taiwanese me-too" bikes that have full carbon fiber front and rear triangles, and a DW Link suspension. Show me where the off-the-rack 930g carbon frames come from. It would have saved Scot, Hans, and myself a lot of time and money.

    Your comment about frames from Asia secretly being made of fiberglass is just hilarious. Fiberglass plies are frequently used in carbon fiber frames to insulate aluminum components from the carbon in order to prevent galvanic corrosion, but no one uses fiber glass as a structural element. Check with Calfee or Parlee, you'll find that there's some fiberglass in their frames too.

    Your rationalization of the difference in cost being evidence of the difference in quality, is also misguided. Companies like Calfee and Parlee utilize entirely different manufacturing methods that permit the customization of individual frames, but result in a higher cost per unit. That difference is reflected in their retail price, but does not equate to a difference in quality. In fact, monocoque composite frames such as the Mojo and the Silk have several advantages in terms of strength and efficiency over lug and tube bikes. Moreover, seeing as both Craig Calfee and several Parlee employees spent a great deal of time in the Ibis booth during the Interbike show discussing our bikes and their development it would seem that people who know the most about carbon fiber hold more respect for what we did than you.

    In regard to those other manufacturers, all I can say is that we priced are bikes so that people could afford them. The critical question not being - "How much can we make on these things?", but - "What would make this irresistable?" Our goal is not to get rich, but to make a living doing what we love.

    In regard to some of the questions about the durability of a carbon fiber mountain bike frame, companies such as Scott, Giant, and Trek have been making carbon fiber mountain bikes for a number of years without significant issues. The concern over carbon fiber frames "chipping" or being "gouged" is legitimate, but no moreso with carbon fiber than steel or aluminum. In fact, carbon fiber can be repaired more easily than steel or aluminum. Ibis has arranged to have Calfee repair frames for us when and if necessary.

    It might also be worth those concerned firing up Google and searching for the strength numbers for carbon fiber versus, chrome-moly steel or aluminum. The tensile strength of T700 carbon filament (what Ibis and most other high quality builders use) is 4900 MPa, 7005 (the most commonly used weldable alloy) aluminum alloy is 193 MPa, and 4130 chrome-moly is 560 MPa. As you can see carbon is almost 10 times as strong as high strength steel and 20 times as strong as aluminum. Also, the denisty of carbon is roughly half that of aluminum and one quarter that of steel.

    In the past, the achilles heel of carbon has been the resin matrix that the carbon filament is contained in. Resin is brittle and prone to cracking. Modern composites use low vicosity resins that reduce the resin content of the composite making it stronger and more damage tolerant. For instance, the Silk frame performs better than many popular aluminum mountain bike frames in our frontal impact test. The Mojo testing has not been completed yet, but given that the Mojo frame weighs twice what the Silk does and given its double triangulated design it is reasonable to assume that it will be plenty strong.

    Hopefully, this will answer some of the questions people on this forum have had. If not, feel free to ask us. You can write us at info@ibisbicycles.com

    Sincerely,
    Tom Morgan
    President
    Ibis Cycles, Inc.

  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rivet
    You beat me to it. To call what Parlee or Calfee do simplistic is to show a complete lack of understanding of true carbon craftsmanship.

    Agreed, anyone "buying" off the shelf carbon tubes and lugs and bonding them together obviously has no idea of how the fibers and matrix transmit loads. He totally forgot to mention the complexities of machining the molds, laying up the fibers in the correct orientation and order, working the material into tight areas without "darting" (cutting the ply) and making sure your cure is done properly.

    To each his own I guess. I love my steel IF hardtail, but I am also open to new things.

    But with steel under $1/pound his argument kind of falls through, even with tube manipulation and butting, steel is still cheap compared to $100/pound preprege tape and fabric. The time it takes to miter, fit, weld, straighten, sand and prepare for paint does not add $80-99/lb to a steel, aluminum, or ti frame, heat treating and argon gas pruge for welding ti and al still does not add that much $$. He also disn't mention molds for carbon bikes. A set of matched molds can easily run $50,000 depending on material, if you are using INVAR (almost no coeffecient of thermal expansion to hold part tolerances during cure) a matched set of molds could cost $100,000. YOu have to sell a lot of bikes to cover that cost, and a mold is only good for 1 size frame unless you are clever. And $100/lb for prepreg is before you even cut the plys to shape and lay them up. A 5 lb frame probably has at least $400 worth of prepreg in it.

    I'm staying out of this from now on until I hear rider reports on this bike.

    B
    When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro....

  64. #64
    Homer's problem child
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tall Tom
    GonaSovereign, I'm afraid you don't know what you are talking about, and before you decide to disparage something that people have sweated over for 1000's of hours, mortgaged theirs homes for, and risked their careers for I would suggest that you do a little research.

    I welcome any and all constructive criticism, but some of your comments are so ludicrous that it's laughable. Please point me in the direction of the "Taiwanese me-too" bikes that have full carbon fiber front and rear triangles, and a DW Link suspension. Show me where the off-the-rack 930g carbon frames come from. It would have saved Scot, Hans, and myself a lot of time and money.

    Your comment about frames from Asia secretly being made of fiberglass is just hilarious. Fiberglass plies are frequently used in carbon fiber frames to insulate aluminum components from the carbon in order to prevent galvanic corrosion, but no one uses fiber glass as a structural element. Check with Calfee or Parlee, you'll find that there's some fiberglass in their frames too.

    Your rationalization of the difference in cost being evidence of the difference in quality, is also misguided. Companies like Calfee and Parlee utilize entirely different manufacturing methods that permit the customization of individual frames, but result in a higher cost per unit. That difference is reflected in their retail price, but does not equate to a difference in quality. In fact, monocoque composite frames such as the Mojo and the Silk have several advantages in terms of strength and efficiency over lug and tube bikes. Moreover, seeing as both Craig Calfee and several Parlee employees spent a great deal of time in the Ibis booth during the Interbike show discussing our bikes and their development it would seem that people who know the most about carbon fiber hold more respect for what we did than you.

    In regard to those other manufacturers, all I can say is that we priced are bikes so that people could afford them. The critical question not being - "How much can we make on these things?", but - "What would make this irresistable?" Our goal is not to get rich, but to make a living doing what we love.

    In regard to some of the questions about the durability of a carbon fiber mountain bike frame, companies such as Scott, Giant, and Trek have been making carbon fiber mountain bikes for a number of years without significant issues. The concern over carbon fiber frames "chipping" or being "gouged" is legitimate, but no moreso with carbon fiber than steel or aluminum. In fact, carbon fiber can be repaired more easily than steel or aluminum. Ibis has arranged to have Calfee repair frames for us when and if necessary.

    It might also be worth those concerned firing up Google and searching for the strength numbers for carbon fiber versus, chrome-moly steel or aluminum. The tensile strength of T700 carbon filament (what Ibis and most other high quality builders use) is 4900 MPa, 7005 (the most commonly used weldable alloy) aluminum alloy is 193 MPa, and 4130 chrome-moly is 560 MPa. As you can see carbon is almost 10 times as strong as high strength steel and 20 times as strong as aluminum. Also, the denisty of carbon is roughly half that of aluminum and one quarter that of steel.

    In the past, the achilles heel of carbon has been the resin matrix that the carbon filament is contained in. Resin is brittle and prone to cracking. Modern composites use low vicosity resins that reduce the resin content of the composite making it stronger and more damage tolerant. For instance, the Silk frame performs better than many popular aluminum mountain bike frames in our frontal impact test. The Mojo testing has not been completed yet, but given that the Mojo frame weighs twice what the Silk does and given its double triangulated design it is reasonable to assume that it will be plenty strong.

    Hopefully, this will answer some of the questions people on this forum have had. If not, feel free to ask us. You can write us at info@ibisbicycles.com

    Sincerely,
    Tom Morgan
    President
    Ibis Cycles, Inc.
    Right on Tom,
    If you ever need a composites engineer to talk things over with feel free to PM me, I am always up for a good chat on composites, especially manufacturing techniques, NDI (non-destructive inspection) and materials (resins (thermoplastic and thermoset) and fibers). I have been working in Aerospace and Automotive composites for a while now and your bike definitely caught my eye in a big way. I have been riding AL FS and steel and Ti hardtails bikes because no one was making a carbon bike that I felt was designed right. Ibis looks to be changing the game.

    Good for you. I am saving $$ now.

    B
    When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro....

  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bortis Yelltzen
    Right on Tom,
    If you ever need a composites engineer to talk things over with feel free to PM me, I am always up for a good chat on composites, especially manufacturing techniques, NDI (non-destructive inspection) and materials (resins (thermoplastic and thermoset) and fibers). I have been working in Aerospace and Automotive composites for a while now and your bike definitely caught my eye in a big way. I have been riding AL FS and steel and Ti hardtails bikes because no one was making a carbon bike that I felt was designed right. Ibis looks to be changing the game.

    Good for you. I am saving $$ now.

    B
    Thanks for the support Boris, I don't have a lot of free time to spend on the discussion boards, but this time it seemed necessary. If ever we get in a position where we need some additional composites expertise we'll look you up. Thanks for the offer!

  66. #66
    Homer's problem child
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tall Tom
    Thanks for the support Boris, I don't have a lot of free time to spend on the discussion boards, but this time it seemed necessary. If ever we get in a position where we need some additional composites expertise we'll look you up. Thanks for the offer!
    Great! Best of luck to you and everyone else at Ibis in this new venture. The Mojo is looking very likely to be the replacement to my Intense 5.5 for next season. I'll be watching carefully until then.

    B
    When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro....

  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bortis Yelltzen
    Where? Please post a link. I can't find it on the new Ibis site.

    Thanks,
    B

    B,
    Here's the link:

    http://ibisbicycles.com/blog/?p=20#comments

  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tall Tom
    GonaSovereign, I'm afraid you don't know what you are talking about, and before you decide to disparage something that people have sweated over for 1000's of hours, mortgaged theirs homes for, and risked their careers for I would suggest that you do a little research.

    I welcome any and all constructive criticism, but some of your comments are so ludicrous that it's laughable. Please point me in the direction of the "Taiwanese me-too" bikes that have full carbon fiber front and rear triangles, and a DW Link suspension. Show me where the off-the-rack 930g carbon frames come from. It would have saved Scot, Hans, and myself a lot of time and money.

    Your comment about frames from Asia secretly being made of fiberglass is just hilarious. Fiberglass plies are frequently used in carbon fiber frames to insulate aluminum components from the carbon in order to prevent galvanic corrosion, but no one uses fiber glass as a structural element. Check with Calfee or Parlee, you'll find that there's some fiberglass in their frames too.

    Your rationalization of the difference in cost being evidence of the difference in quality, is also misguided. Companies like Calfee and Parlee utilize entirely different manufacturing methods that permit the customization of individual frames, but result in a higher cost per unit. That difference is reflected in their retail price, but does not equate to a difference in quality. In fact, monocoque composite frames such as the Mojo and the Silk have several advantages in terms of strength and efficiency over lug and tube bikes. Moreover, seeing as both Craig Calfee and several Parlee employees spent a great deal of time in the Ibis booth during the Interbike show discussing our bikes and their development it would seem that people who know the most about carbon fiber hold more respect for what we did than you.

    In regard to those other manufacturers, all I can say is that we priced are bikes so that people could afford them. The critical question not being - "How much can we make on these things?", but - "What would make this irresistable?" Our goal is not to get rich, but to make a living doing what we love.

    In regard to some of the questions about the durability of a carbon fiber mountain bike frame, companies such as Scott, Giant, and Trek have been making carbon fiber mountain bikes for a number of years without significant issues. The concern over carbon fiber frames "chipping" or being "gouged" is legitimate, but no moreso with carbon fiber than steel or aluminum. In fact, carbon fiber can be repaired more easily than steel or aluminum. Ibis has arranged to have Calfee repair frames for us when and if necessary.

    It might also be worth those concerned firing up Google and searching for the strength numbers for carbon fiber versus, chrome-moly steel or aluminum. The tensile strength of T700 carbon filament (what Ibis and most other high quality builders use) is 4900 MPa, 7005 (the most commonly used weldable alloy) aluminum alloy is 193 MPa, and 4130 chrome-moly is 560 MPa. As you can see carbon is almost 10 times as strong as high strength steel and 20 times as strong as aluminum. Also, the denisty of carbon is roughly half that of aluminum and one quarter that of steel.

    In the past, the achilles heel of carbon has been the resin matrix that the carbon filament is contained in. Resin is brittle and prone to cracking. Modern composites use low vicosity resins that reduce the resin content of the composite making it stronger and more damage tolerant. For instance, the Silk frame performs better than many popular aluminum mountain bike frames in our frontal impact test. The Mojo testing has not been completed yet, but given that the Mojo frame weighs twice what the Silk does and given its double triangulated design it is reasonable to assume that it will be plenty strong.

    Hopefully, this will answer some of the questions people on this forum have had. If not, feel free to ask us. You can write us at info@ibisbicycles.com

    Sincerely,
    Tom Morgan
    President
    Ibis Cycles, Inc.

    I respect the effort, I just wish the direction was different. The bike is beautiful for sure, especially the Mojo. I was hoping for something shorter travel, perhaps a hardtail in the line up somewhere, titanium or steel. I am interested in looking at this new Mojo, but not owning it. By the way a 29er (non-recombent would be swell, thank you very much). I also would hope that not everything is made in Asia. Nothing against Asia, but some made in the USA products would be great from a company that is I believe U.S. owned. I don't doubt the the construction is top notch, so nobody start down that road again. I hope in the future there is some room for something like this in your line up. I will be interested in doing more than looking then.
    THIS SPACE FOR RENT

  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbexx
    Thanks, takes a little of my enthusiasm away from the bike but I am still very interested to hear rider reports. I was guessing for $1900 it would have to be made in China. But if their process and technicians check out if could still be a nice bike. I'll be watching carefully.

    B
    When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro....

  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tall Tom
    Your comment about frames from Asia secretly being made of fiberglass is just hilarious.
    Joke's on you?

    Counterfeit carbon has been reported on by the bicycle trade press, which is something well short of "hard-hitting" in its coverage of the business.

    From the May 6 2005 online version of Bikebiz:

    The first consequences of the forthcoming price hike can already be seen, claimed Dr Weng. He said his R&D team have come across Asian bicycle components made from cheaper glass fibre, 'wrapped' in carbon fibre. Last year's trend was for carbon fibre sheathing over aluminium cores, a shady practice but one that's easily proved to be taking place (so long as you can bear cutting into your 'carbon' handlebars, that is). However, glass fibre cores can be dyed to look indistinguishable from the carbon fibre outers and it needs specialist testing to spot the duds.

    http://www.bikebiz.co.uk/daily-news/article.php?id=5532

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by alrs
    Joke's on you?

    Counterfeit carbon has been reported on by the bicycle trade press, which is something well short of "hard-hitting" in its coverage of the business.

    From the May 6 2005 online version of Bikebiz:

    The first consequences of the forthcoming price hike can already be seen, claimed Dr Weng. He said his R&D team have come across Asian bicycle components made from cheaper glass fibre, 'wrapped' in carbon fibre. Last year's trend was for carbon fibre sheathing over aluminium cores, a shady practice but one that's easily proved to be taking place (so long as you can bear cutting into your 'carbon' handlebars, that is). However, glass fibre cores can be dyed to look indistinguishable from the carbon fibre outers and it needs specialist testing to spot the duds.

    http://www.bikebiz.co.uk/daily-news/article.php?id=5532

    Nice job. Good to know. Companies better be aware or it is going to be ugly when something brakes and they are liable....
    THIS SPACE FOR RENT

  72. #72
    Steel is Real!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tall Tom

    Sincerely,
    Tom Morgan
    President
    Ibis Cycles, Inc.
    Tom, (& Chuck) congratulations on getting back in the business! I'm sure you'll have read elsewhere that there's a fair sized contingent of 30 somethings with money burning holes to varying degrees in their pockets, and looking for steel hardtails.....the opportunity is yours for the taking!

    Good luck with the venture.
    Wanted: Bontrager TI LITE in medium please

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