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  1. #1
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    Suspension Setup

    Suspension Setup article!

    Posting this as its about as good a explanation on suspension setup thats served me well over the years and may actually carry more weight for some.

    I just see this so often out on the trail injury and crash causes and read so much mis information so this article has great tips on setting sag correctly, balance for rebound front and rear as well as sag and tuning from base eg no lazy adj with compression still on etc.

    I will add another wee trick I just tried after my last ride was to bleed air from my forks by using a zip tie, Ive tried not to make too many adj of late and everything felt pretty good but my last ride felt a little harsh, may have been conditions, really really dry lately and that makes some sticky suspension, even though Im anal about cleaning my bike and components down after every ride.

    Slide a small zip tie in between the fork seal and push down gently on fork get that sucker in they're and bleed any air build up, this affects air forks more, one benefit of coil is more set and forget, but air can still build up in those over time as well, not as much a problem as say moto but still they're especially if you're slack in serving your lowers regularly.

    Anyway needless to say my fork felt quite a bit better.

    Important to keep a diary of your suspension setups as well and how it felt.

    Anyway great article again, even knowing it all it can really bring ya back to good basics, ya never to good.

    Just as a base currently I run 35% rear sag in my shock and 25% sag up front.

    Good luck and enjoy.

  2. #2
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    Thats a good calm article Mav. Nice

    The zip tie trick I first heard about from BOS btw lol.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by nzl62 View Post
    Thats a good calm article Mav. Nice

    The zip tie trick I first heard about from BOS btw lol.
    Def not new, but many people just don't know, if it helps one person then job done.

    Sometimes simple things help more than a hefty credit card bill even when we have the knowledge or been around along time, sometimes thats worse than being a newbie, I just regularly see setups that make me cringe and they have no idea, most common in the que for the shuttle, you know where I mean and stuff I read on mtbr at times.

    While simple and pretty straight forward, still the most misunderstood subject vs $$ to buy better performance, along with tires.

  4. #4
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    What that article is missing (or I just missed it) is the bit about suspension setup is not one size fits all. I tweak mine a little based on the trail I'm on. Not huge changes, but enough to make a difference. EX: slowing rebound 1-2 clicks if I am going to be pedaling through lots of technical stuff.

    Your zip-tie method is good. I usually do it by removing the lower leg bolts and burping it that way, but the zip-tie is a way easier method. I'll be doing it via zip-tie from now on.

  5. #5
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    You only need to burp with the zip tie if you make a big elevation change, so shuttle runs its a mandatory, if you stay at the same elevation level most of the time its not necessary but not a bad idea once in awhile. When we do Downieville shuttles I always burp peoples forks for em, you would be amazed at how much air comes out.

    I run about 25% sag up front and %30 out rear

  6. #6
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    I don't agree with the article about faster riders using slower rebound, I've noticed the opposite. I usually see slow guys running almost no rebound and no compression. intermediate riders run too slow of rebound and some compression, and ultra fast riders run a lot of compression and keep the rebound to a miniumum, running it fairly fast. But then again seems like there are so many people who run funny setups there almost is no normal, lol.

    Overall that article is a pretty sound generalization for people to follow, good read

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    I know that when troy joined sam hill he said he slowed down the rebound and increased his compression, now that said really rebound is completely track dependent and spring rate dependent.

    if you run less compression you will adjust rebound accordingly, if you run more compression you will find the rebound is still similar because as you move deeper into the travel the rebound is automatically increases due to the spring rate, really compression should have no bearing on rebound, you always want to achieve no packing down and no kick back so its always going to be track and rider dependent. Now many people subscribe to the as fast as you can without kicking but i do wonder if maybe as slow as you can without packing is a better method.

    I think the article is a great source for most riders who don't want to know all the ins and outs but there are some key advanced explanations that would be good to have too.

  8. #8
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    That article is a good read. I'm still getting my head around how to set up my suspension properly. I've set the sag, but I'm trying to get the rebound right. I guess it is just a case of experimenting until I get the sweet spot.

    I'm new to full suspension, as I have ridden a hardtail for 22 years

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    Arthur is an incredible mind when it comes to suspension setup. FTR when he set up my Mojo is was pretty close to half way on the rebound (9 in on the fox 34). A little quicker on the rear. He is also an advocate of moar air pressure for the fox 34 CTD and running it in Descend (I'm 180lbs and in running 105psi). At slow speed it definitely feels firm, but when charging hard, especially around here, excellent wheel control, and no sudden surprises. Sits high in the travel and gives me really good support to push off of.

    I ride with him often, and well he's bloody amazing. He rides a TRc with a fox 32 (yes32) on the North Shore tech gnar faster than 95% of the DHr's here. He's like Yoda of shore riding.

  10. #10
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    What I have learned about rebound over the years is that as softer spring rate often needs more rebound damping. A firmer spring rate often needs more rebound damping. Huh? How is that? Well the relationship between rebound and spring rate is not linear - it is more like a U shape. If you go deeper into the travel then you will need more control to avoid pogoing. If you run your bike firm you will need more rebound damping to counter increased spring force.
    The comments about what fast riders do with regard to rebound is generally pretty accurate but there are exceptions.
    Take an article in Dirt some years back when the Athertons and Cedric Gracia were on Commencal. Dan and Gee could not ride CG's bike and I think the reverse was also true.
    With regard to setup being track specific- to a point. Steve Peat has been known to not touch the bike at all once dialed whilst Voullioz had changes based on data logging etc.
    I have personally found that a good setup on my bike is just that and I need to avoid the urge to tinker. It is also important to note that a good setup will be fine for 90% of the trail. Don't fiddle for the 10% at the expense of the majority.

    The other point that is made is the mistakes in understanding high speed and low speed compression and the forces that affect each. Big mistake I have made is thinking that jump landings are high speed comp moments, they more often than not are low speed due to the fact that you are going through most of the shaft length.
    I have also found with my Vector Air HLR that you really can't use one without the other, in fact you can cause spiking if you use only LSC and no HSC - theres a diagram in on of the posts in the suspension forum.
    I have also found it is easy to mistake too fast rebound for too much HSC and vice versa
    The faster I go the firmer I have my compression and the more rebound damping I find I need. This makes sense as there is much greater force needing to be absorbed.
    In my experince, the better, faster the rider I have met, the slower and stiffer their setup

    For pretty much everyone here the article is pretty sound - good find Mav

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    I should also add, that just as I think I have got it all sorted then I realize I know stuff all!
    It is incredibly useful to write down settings accurately and have a base setup to go back to. EG the BOS Deville base setup is pretty darn good, and I know that if I go back there then increase the rebound damping 3-5 click I am pretty good

  12. #12
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    The faster you go the more chatter there will be and the more the suspension will pack up. So you need less rebound so it can recover and keep you floating over the top of the terrain. Everything has to be within reason. There's always a Window of what's right. When I say fat rebound I don't mean"no"rebound, lol

  13. #13
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    likewise when I say more rebound I am most def not saying to the point of packing up

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by d-bug View Post
    What that article is missing (or I just missed it) is the bit about suspension setup is not one size fits all. I tweak mine a little based on the trail I'm on. Not huge changes, but enough to make a difference. EX: slowing rebound 1-2 clicks if I am going to be pedaling through lots of technical stuff.

    Your zip-tie method is good. I usually do it by removing the lower leg bolts and burping it that way, but the zip-tie is a way easier method. I'll be doing it via zip-tie from now on.
    You just missed it, it dosent say or state how much or pigeon hole people, but theyre is a balance that most people miss that is the point of proper setup, of course you run what suits your bike, shocks forks etc every damper and most are shite run the way that suits them to perform the way you ride, but the balance and percentage of sag and speed of rebound front to rear regardless of how fast you like it is the same for everyone, how many clicks you run is irrelevant.

    However re garding rebound speeds since that riles most here!

    Most run fast rebohnds for a number of reasons.

    1: Poor damper! Requires faster rebounds so shock fork does not pack up and you end up trying to turn a poor damper the muppet tune for most
    of the market I call it, to run high in stroke yet still be soft off the top but be supportive the harder you ride and have control on big hits, dam hard with some of the poop offerings weve had in recent times.

    2: Poor techinque, after proper setup and balance, then poor technique of the rider, just lack of timming, unloading and loading ability and general base skills. People rely too much on rebound to throw themselves over stuff, fine on the smooth shite I see allot of riders on
    refer to point 1

    3: People just dont know better which is why I posted this, it wasnt for the more technical savy riders in here, though im sure theyres more improvement that could be had if open to get out of the rut and understand it.
    plus add point 1

    I include myself in that.
    Read some other comments below!

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick005 View Post
    You just missed it, it dosent say or state how much or pigeon hole people, but theyre is a balance that most people miss that is the point of proper setup, of course you run what suits your bike, shocks forks etc every damper and most are shite run the way that suits them to perform the way you ride, but the balance and percentage of sag and speed of rebound front to rear regardless of how fast you like it is the same for everyone, how many clicks you run is irrelevant.

    However re garding rebound speeds since that riles most here!

    Most run fast rebohnds for a number of reasons.

    1: Poor damper! Requires faster rebounds so shock fork does not pack up and you end up trying to turn a poor damper the muppet tune for most
    of the market I call it, to run high in stroke yet still be soft off the top but be supportive the harder you ride and have control on big hits, dam hard with some of the poop offerings weve had in recent times.

    2: Poor techinque, after proper setup and balance, then poor technique of the rider, just lack of timming, unloading and loading ability and general base skills. People rely too much on rebound to throw themselves over stuff, fine on the smooth shite I see allot of riders on
    refer to point 1

    3: People just dont know better which is why I posted this, it wasnt for the more technical savy riders in here, though im sure theyres more improvement that could be had if open to get out of the rut and understand it.
    plus add point 1

    I include myself in that.
    Read some other comments below!
    I don't know what "fast" or "slow" means to you but I think its funny how you say we're "in a rut" lmao. You my friend are in the rut, if you think slower is always better. Maybe you observe some people who don't know how to ride at all and you bounce on their bikes and they feel like crap, but thats not me. I'm running top notch suspension components, well serviced, setup correctly. When you hit stuff fast, you can't have slow rebound. I don't know how your trails are, but ours aren't buffed out flow trails with smooth jumps. They are fast gnar with lots of natural terrain, and not everything is man made and built to be flowed. And speaking of weighting the bike and riding correctly. It takes a more skilled rider to hit jumps at speed with faster rebound. But you will go faster if you do. Its a bandaid to slow down the rear suspension when jumping because you can not keep weight on the pedals and let the bike up into you fast enough. I'm not the pro rider, but I have a decent understanding of the correct ways to do things.

    Again this is all speaking within a window of whats acceptable, setups that are all way off like a pogo or a sticky turd are not what we're talking about. I'm talking within 2-3 clicks (max) either direction on a neutral setup. (not too fast, not too slow)

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yody View Post
    I don't agree with the article about faster riders using slower rebound, I've noticed the opposite. I usually see slow guys running almost no rebound and no compression. intermediate riders run too slow of rebound and some compression, and ultra fast riders run a lot of compression and keep the rebound to a miniumum, running it fairly fast. But then again seems like there are so many people who run funny setups there almost is no normal, lol.

    Overall that article is a pretty sound generalization for people to follow, good read
    No total misconception, yes fast riders can often ride fast setups that does not mean thats right, or they are as fast or in control as they could be, some xould be down to bike design add damler with that, its what the old saying ya dont know what ya dont know then add poor dampers in the mix and its no wonder people end up with wack setups.

    I no longer as fast rider by any means, but Ive coached riders many fadter than me on a DH track and made them significantly faster, I always work on setup first basing it around that rider, not myself, ususally stiffening and slowing things down and the improvements have been significant, I certainely dont know everything though, why I like MTB it challenges you as things improve, dont get caught on semantics, its a variable guide line but the formula is always the same. Just as it is for calculating sag, its about balance of all said variables.

    Ive also ridden pros bikes in DH and I get to ride some pretty good setups, I've always been surprised how stiff and how slow these setups usually are, and im talking national champions and multiple national champions, read any good suspension maker of the top end not mass produced shite and they will tell you the same thing!

    A very good example of this is BOS suspension (5th Element shocks were anlther back in the day far ahead lf anything else, though still shite) and I include XFusion close behind this, read anything from BOS about rebound speeds, on the trail they dont pack up yet in the carpark test you'd swear it was so slow its a turtle not a jack rabbit, yet on the trail it just gets on with it, thats how my experience has been with my XF Veng and Vector on the HD!

    Recently I got a play on a Deville and again it was very slow in the carpark test, then I got to play with 5 different Pikes on todays ride the comparison using the carpark test the BOS was as slow as Ive ever felt almost felt like it would come back to full travel.

    Every Pike I had a quick play with felt like a ruddy fast pogo stick so much so I have doubts about it, theyre rears were too stiff stink bug setups, but then I refer back to my above points of lack of setup knowledge, 3 of the 5 riders were on 10k plus bikes full Enve M6s full XTR bling and could barley ride a bike, literally Im not exagerating, still other too I know the riders and was surprised and commented to them how fast theyre rebounds were, way too fast in rear as well, VPP bikes urgh lol, fast XC style riders, but I would kill them in technical single track, jumps drops or where technique was important as well as good bike setup.

    Now this is a touchy subject because what you may perceive as me saying slow may or may not be slow, I havent rideen your bike seen you ride so I have no idea how fast is fast for you and differnt dampers as ive said are no comparison, hence why no where have I said or has the article said you should be either side of middle setting for a fast setup or slow setup, what it said was the front should be faster than the rear, more sag in the rear than the front, tunning is from theyre to the individual.

    Its a fine balance between, too slow packing up or too fast, if too fast pretty simple to diagnose, you wont use full travel let alone skip the terrain, boucning off everthing out of control, skipping stuff is done by good rider technique nlt fast rebounds! Usually a laxk of timming and inability to load and unload your suspension which is technically harder the faster you ride, less time to implement, add again refer poor dampers or lack of basic knowlegde.

    Ive experimented on my XFusion at all extremes of rebound and compression and run those settings enough to know what works best now for those dampers for me, my balance front and rear is spot on woth this artocle, btw this guy who wrote that artcile will know more about suspension than all of us together and then some.

    My XF is very close to the BOS up front still give the BOS the edge on pure dampening quality stiffenss like NZL62 to XF Veng, the XF is critical on the rear, too fast in the rear in an XFusion damper and not only will you have your ball sack wacked constantly on an HDR/HD but it will be a harsh uncontrolled slow dangerous ride, the shock Vector anyway when setup correctly does not need a rebound crutch, same with the fork they are very well damped throughout the stroke but easily to over work them as each adj makes a sig difference if all added at once, simple to set but hard to setup if so used to a Fox or older RS, another plus dor the BOS limited adj as eaxh click makes a good difference, again due to a superior damper.

    At the end of the day as dbug was alluding to theyre are allot of variables but the formula is the same, adjust for the bike design, damper quality or model of shock fork, rider style and conditions, but a good rider wont need to change for every condition if a good balance is struck and the formula balance front to rear is the critical aspect not how many clicks makes you so fast.

    If comparing a WC racer they need every adavange which is very small at that level between 10th and 1st, they have the best dampers and tuners not us hacks so dont compare better riders unless they are lf that level, I bet I could take most people here down one of our techincal trails on the HD and them on theyre HDR HD using the analogy better riders can run fast rebounds and they wont stay on thier bikes I promise you!

    Id be interested to know Brian Lopes settings and Anne Cs settings!

    Also note another varible though basic, but also along Dbugs lines for a given spring rate then rebound speeds need to be adjusted accordingly so saying faster top riders have faster rebounds is also again a moot point, higher spring rate or stiffer setup the slower the rebound is, and faster better riders usually have very stiff setups, so that does not fly.

    Lighter riders, softer spring rates need a faster rebound again this is relative to the quality or lack of in the damper!

    I posted this article to help people under 2 things not the string thory of relaitivity but jnder balance front and rear, proper sag and how to work that out, balance of rebound front and rear regardless how fast or slow you wan to run it.

    If Im labeled a slow rider due to slow rebound then so be it, as with so much of mtbr people like to turn helpful info into a storm and people lose the point which was meant to help them improve theyre riding, you cant make people drink you only lead them to water and them its up to you!

    Anyway dam response is nearly longer than the article

    Happy trails people.

    Think I had my fastest ride of 2014 today, bike was accelrating like a rocket, had so much more in the tank yet totaly control, braaap.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yody View Post
    I don't know what "fast" or "slow" means to you but I think its funny how you say we're "in a rut" lmao. You my friend are in the rut, if you think slower is always better. Maybe you observe some people who don't know how to ride at all and you bounce on their bikes and they feel like crap, but thats not me. I'm running top notch suspension components, well serviced, setup correctly. When you hit stuff fast, you can't have slow rebound. I don't know how your trails are, but ours aren't buffed out flow trails with smooth jumps. They are fast gnar with lots of natural terrain, and not everything is man made and built to be flowed. And speaking of weighting the bike and riding correctly. It takes a more skilled rider to hit jumps at speed with faster rebound. But you will go faster if you do. Its a bandaid to slow down the rear suspension when jumping because you can not keep weight on the pedals and let the bike up into you fast enough. I'm not the pro rider, but I have a decent understanding of the correct ways to do things.

    Again this is all speaking within a window of whats acceptable, setups that are all way off like a pogo or a sticky turd are not what we're talking about. I'm talking within 2-3 clicks (max) either direction on a neutral setup. (not too fast, not too slow)

    Maybe you should read properly, one the article which for someone with your knowledge and expertise was not the intention, meaning this was to help those that regualry post about suspenion setup, I get PM"d allot And get asked this question and happy to help, the article shared to help people get base settings and balance right, not how many clicks of rebound or compression you need! we are reading off the same song sheet and you are acting all insecure!

    If you are a better rider than me and think you are all that good on you enjoy it no one who knows me has riden with me would ever say I like to ride smooth trails cheers for that gave me a good laugh anyway.

    Read propely and try not to read to much into it

  18. #18
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    Who cares who's better. Its all relative. We're riding bikes in the woods to put a smile on our face. I don't enter racers and I'd rather ride with friends than be in competition. And nowhere did I make any reference to how fast of a rider you are, speed is relative, skill level and control are what matters.

    "3: it wasnt for the more technical savy riders in here, though im sure theyres more improvement that could be had if open to get out of the rut and understand it."

    I'm posting in this thread so I'm taking it as directed towards me. I think its good to help out average joes with their rebound fast to the moon, and slow it down and help them out. I've seen you in the past recommending slower rear rebound and I don't necessarily agree with that for everyone. I'm showing the other side of things, keeping the info posted here more well balanced. Slower can be okay but you can't say that if I'm not signing up for your slower is better method that I'm in a rut and I maybe I'd see the light if I just tried it out your way (which I have). If you are qualified enough to give everyone such advice I think you'd recognize the need for faster rebound for some people. The fact that you do not is what makes me logically figure you must ride smooth flowy jump trails. No idea if thats correct or not but its all I could come up with because I feel from your readings you must be a pretty good rider, its the only scenario I could think of. OR we're all riding similar setup or setups that are good and we are arguing for no good reason because trying to explain in words the action of the shock is near impossible! lol.

    I don't think the article was bad in anyway, was just discussing one point they make in it for us to talk about. I think its a great starting point for people to start learning their suspensions. So many guys out there who just ride and don't really mess with their bikes and they are set up so far from whats a good starting point. I do agree with you on that for sure.

    I too would like to see how Brian's bike is setup, no idea if he's much of a bike setup expert but he def knows how to ride!

  19. #19
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    Yody you've picked up the "slow rebound" thing and ran with it, I think you have assumed something that simply hasn't been said. We are probably all talking about exactly the same range. _ I think we are singin from the same hymn sheet albeit coming from diff directions

    The average rider out on the trail runs their forks too fast. Loads of reasons for this but this was in no way directed at any specific rider. I am however always surprised at how slow fast riders have their setups, or more specifically how slow and stiff. Most of us couldn't ride Gwins bike for example, or Blenkis or Cam Coles
    When we talk about suspension most people think only in terms of bump absorption and give little thought to stability and maintaining geometry
    Some really great articles from Chris Porter (Mojo UK - Fox importer) that completely debunk the whole notion of running fast rebound to allow full extension for next hit - he calls it complete horseshit. Instead he makes the point that the bike should return to its dynamic geometry position ie sagged position and mustn't over extend past this point - think rally car landing a jump - rebound controlled to allow car to compress and return to sagged position - opposite to what a cadillac would do
    For most people this would feel far too slow and they will worry about pack down. In this setup square edge hits that are very close together will prob pack the suspension down a little buy is this a bad thing if the control is there? Mojo uk would suggest not. Chris Porter is a 50 year old rider that can prob bust out more runs faster over a really rough track like Fort William and avoids the dreaded and very common arm pump etc due to his philosophies above.
    I have noticed a great deal of improvements over control and fatigue with slowing my forks down significantly. The point Mav makes about poor dampers is valid as there are plenty that really don't have the same quality compression circuits as rebound, so you have to compromise

  20. #20
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    I'd rather float over the top of all that rough by running quicker rebound keeping the bike riding higher in its travel and keeping it moving forward. Then run it slower and have to work harder to keep it from pounding and slowing down. Again this is all assuming were talking within the same frame of what we would consider a correct setup. I can't believe someone of his knowledge (so you say) would say its horseshit to keep the suspension on the quicker side to avoid repeated hits. In sports where there is something with wheels and suspension its pretty common to leave the rebound on the looser side if hitting a lot of chatter and roughness, and when its smooth and fast you run it tighter. Lets not re-invent the wheel here and start saying that its okay to run it nice and slow because theres some way of avoiding it packing and pounding(which will make the geometry even worse as your FS bike dives into the travel) lol. I like the convo tho, hearing that someone who does that much suspension tuning says such things does get me thinking

    Maybe I just haven't bounced on enough fast guys bikes, the few very fast guys I know all run their bikes reasonably fast. Haven't felt too many pro's bikes that were noticably slow. We're talking trail bikes here though, I don't have too much DH bike experience. Dh bikes are heavier, have more travel, and have more negative travel (sag) so they aren't necessarily operating the same way.

  21. #21
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    I weigh 170-180 depending on how often I'm riding and how much beer I'm drinking

    Mojo HD XL
    2011 Fox 36 Float kashima rlc 160mm (with 10mm cut off piston rod for a little more air spring volume)
    55-60PSI in fork, 3-4 clicks of compression from open Out of 8 (depending on trail etc)
    I'm 9 clicks in on rebound from full open, out of 20 total clicks (anything more than 15 clicks is way to slow like molasses)
    About 25 percent sag, maybe a hair more

    Rear shock is monarch Plus, tuned by push with aggressive tune with more valving (ie not plush)
    High volume can with 3 foam ring shims to reduce volume
    Always ran on the middle compression setting
    Running 3 clicks of rebound from full open, out of 8
    28-30% sag

    This is a pretty even balanced setup front to rear and is on the quicker side of things. Its not some ultra fast setup but it rides high carry's momentum very well. Misplace your weight and it can get a lil bouncy

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    Yody, I'll try to dig out the Chris Porter article. But I'd associate skipping over obstacles as a compression factor not rebound. We are all talking the same thing here but lets define rebound speed - I would say the optimum /midway would be where if you compress the fork or shock hard it out to return to the sag point and not overshoot. This is consistent with pretty much all fox documentation. They use the exple of riding over a curb - compress, then return and no further bounces.
    I'd say my range of adjustment would be 2-3 click maxx either side

    Next take a look at this youtube vid - at approx 50seconds you will see the guys performing some suspension tests. Full weight compression and then pulling up.
    Get your rebound like that and you are so close to optimum again a techniques used by TF Tuned uk, Mojo, etc etc

    NIcolas Vouilloz tests the Bos Deville fork - YouTube

    Been looking and can't find the Chris Porter interview. I will look through my collection of Dirt Mags later lol
    His comment should really be taken as to make the rebound fast enough to rebound fully before next obstacle is far too general as accounting for really quick hits will me rebound is too fast. Some aspect of the trail you will have to just deal with in order to maintain balance etc. If the forks are too active they will break traction, add to arm pump and not have the optimum control. Too slow and everything turns to shit, ride gets harsh.
    The motocross guys often start with everything on full full hard full slow and run the bike easing things up until its not too hard. So they are coming from the opposite angle to most mountaibikers ie as much compression and rebound as possible without it being harsh.
    During a DH race season my bike will start soft and fast and end up harder and harder as I get faster. To accomodate the stiffer compression you need rebound to match to a point. No point running slow with zero comp control on either hs or ls. Likewise no point having a firm compression setup or tune without rebound to compliment. The controls need to be considered together

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    Werd, solid stuff. I can't say that I disagree with anything you just said. And I think you're mostly right, compression comes into play for sure to keep the bike from falling into holes and going over the top. Like you said, it's all a balancing act

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    I think I call that neutral, where it just comes right back at you. And I like to tailor from there and air on the faster side of things. But only marginally. And you can't have any idea on the supsension rate in that video, he has the brakes on too hard, its in slow motion, and who knows where in the setup they were when taking that video.
    Last edited by Yody; 02-02-2014 at 12:22 PM.

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    Group Hugs

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    Group Hugs

    I was also going to add the because people get so confused maybe it would be easier to think of the controls as positive or negative compression? Maybe that way riders would understand that the compression stage and rebound stage need to be balanced? I dunno
    This topic for debate will never die.
    Mav is a top guy and was able to easily see that things had become screwy with my setup. Its hard we you ride your setup everyday - you get used to stuff. Nothing like an objective view

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    You three probably all run exactly the same setups.

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    Thats what I was starting to suspect lol - or at least similar enough

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    Stop it dan, you're ruining it. we're not done geeking out yet. lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yody View Post
    Stop it dan, you're ruining it. we're not done geeking out yet. lol
    Sorry, my bad. Carry on.

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    Rebound....as fast as you can, without it bucking you off on big hits.
    Compression...as much as you can without it spiking / feeling harsh.
    Air Spring...emphasize on feel and balance, than trying to get full travel.

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    Quote Originally Posted by canuck_tacoma View Post
    Rebound....as fast as you can, without it bucking you off on big hits.
    Compression...as much as you can without it spiking / feeling harsh.
    Air Spring...emphasize on feel and balance, than trying to get full travel.
    +100

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    Quote Originally Posted by canuck_tacoma View Post
    Compression...as much as you can without it spiking / feeling harsh..
    I'm finding this discussion really helpful. Can you guys describe "spiking" /having too much compression a little more?

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    Spiking is excessive feedback though the handlebars or through the bike (from the shock) due to excessive highspeed damping or rebound that is too fast
    It is very common to mistake too little rebound damping from too much compression and vice verse. One test is to ride hard at a series of square edge obstacles or a low curb and adjust rebound until wheel doesn't deflect or ping off line and then dial in some high speed if your fork has it until you are not using too much travel for the same hit.

    Further to above discussion, had a good chat to a local WC rider as to what he is looking for in suspension setup. Fair to say his approach was pretty extreme compared to mine but the single consistent thought was slow rebound, stiff spring rate plenty of low speed an a bit less than plenty hsc. By his own admission, this setup is pretty hellish at low speed but his aim is to pop over things not get bogged down. He politely told me that he'd find my plusher setup slow but comfortable.
    His rebound setup as this is what we have been discussing specifically - was slow, just on the verge of packing down. So he goes as slow as he can without packing down and as stiff as he can without becoming a hard tail and this guy is v fast. His approach is very similar he said to Blenki, Cam cole, and our very own Bulldog

    I doubt that any of us would enjoy their tunes for our sunday rides but then again we aren't going anywhere near as fast thats for sure. So for the point of the argument, I have yet to find a single Nat or WC level rider here that doesn't set their rig up in a similar way

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    this is the ibis forum and we're setting up trail bikes. Not world cup downhill bikes. Now I'm saying that with no offense meant, but these are trail bikes and slow rebound is gonna make a slow bike. Not all trails are gonna be 30mph chunder chunk fests with huge senders
    Last edited by Yody; 02-04-2014 at 12:04 PM.

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    And on a second thought, when running stiffer spring rates t hat are required for riders on DH bikes going that fast you need to use more rebound valving to control the high energy recoiling back at you from the stiffer spring. So at low speeds the rebound is going to "feel" slower. However when you pick up speed the bike is going to feel faster (rebound) because the spring is unloading with more velocity. So their "slow" setup at their speed, is going to feel similar to one of our setups going a bit slower (our speeds) with faster rebound (with less spring rate)

    Rebound is going to be proportionate to spring rate. The faster the rider you are, the more spring you will typically use, and accordingly the more rebound. That doesn't mean the bike is going to feel slower at speed, the bike will still be poppy and not pack up. But at low speeds, or bouncing around in a parking lot its going to feel slower.

    So in a way its true faster riders will you use more rebound, but the bike itself is not going to feel slower. Thats the point here, which can be lost by average riders reading that the faster you go the slower your bike should be. That's an incorrect way of explaining to people and can be totally perceived incorrectly.

    The way it should be stated is, faster riders typically run more spring rate which means they will correspondingly run more rebound. Not that just the faster you are the slower you run the bike.
    Last edited by Yody; 02-04-2014 at 12:02 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yody View Post
    this is the ibis forum and we're setting up trail bikes. Not world cup downhill bikes. Now I'm saying that with no offense meant, but these are trail bikes and slow rebound is gonna make a slow bike. Not all trails are gonna be 30mph chunder chunk fests with huge senders
    I never said they were WC bikes, I just said they were WC riders. They all ride Enduro and own trail bikes. If you agree or disagree it really doesn't bother me, I am just throwing this in as people were refuting the point made about faster riders running their rigs slower. So far having spoken to rider sand looked at 8 setups (since this debate got me thinking) I can say that this seems to be 100 percent accurate as per previous comments and the article that started it all off.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yody View Post
    this is the ibis forum and we're setting up trail bikes. Not world cup downhill bikes. Now I'm saying that with no offense meant, but these are trail bikes and slow rebound is gonna make a slow bike. Not all trails are gonna be 30mph chunder chunk fests with huge senders
    I think that most people setup their bikes way too slow. I used to be guilty of this as well. My rebound settings on both my fork and rear shock are close to wide open now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yody View Post
    And on a second thought, when running stiffer spring rates t hat are required for riders on DH bikes going that fast you need to use more rebound valving to control the high energy recoiling back at you from the stiffer spring. So at low speeds the rebound is going to "feel" slower. However when you pick up speed the bike is going to feel faster (rebound) because the spring is unloading with more velocity. So their "slow" setup at their speed, is going to feel similar to one of our setups going a bit slower (our speeds) with faster rebound (with less spring rate)

    Rebound is going to be proportionate to spring rate. The faster the rider you are, the more spring you will typically use, and accordingly the more rebound. That doesn't mean the bike is going to feel slower at speed, the bike will still be poppy and not pack up. But at low speeds, or bouncing around in a parking lot its going to feel slower.

    So in a way its true faster riders will you use more rebound, but the bike itself is not going to feel slower. Thats the point here, which can be lost by average riders reading that the faster you go the slower your bike should be. That's an incorrect way of explaining to people and can be totally perceived incorrectly.

    The way it should be stated is, faster riders typically run more spring rate which means they will correspondingly run more rebound. Not that just the faster you are the slower you run the bike.
    Exactly. And in fact the bike will feel faster as it doesn't drop into stuff as much but skims across the top. But I don't understand what you say about slowing the bike. We are talking hydraulic control of the suspension circuits.
    Now having said all this, I am not as fast as these guys and I don't particularly want to have a ride equivalent to a WC rally car on std pot holed streets. However I now do understand that as you go faster you may need to stiffen everything up to make it less harsh which is really the point of the posts and articles as it is counter intuitive.
    The guys I was talking too all seem to need to run approx 25% sag max. But having said that most of them were on Fox air cans, Rp23s and so I take that with a pinch of salt as the compression circuits in those units tends to be godamme awfull so you do need to either custom vlave, run volume spacers or pump it up harder to stop it blowing through. I suspect that something like a CCDBA or XF Vector Air HLR would be run a little softer due to the superior control over the compression stage.
    I ended the conversations with those guys realizing just how much I still have to learn about bike setup

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    Quote Originally Posted by nzl62 View Post
    But I don't understand what you say about slowing the bike. We are talking hydraulic control of the suspension circuits.
    If you take any one of our bikes, and slow the rebound waay down, past the normal range but not quite to the point where its totally unusable . And go ride down a rocky trail at speed, the normal way you like to ride, I believe you will be slower, with a slower mph and a slower over all time, the bike will be ultra harsh and hard to ride. I could imagine getting thrown over the bars from the fork diving and not recovering for the next hit. Now go open the rebound quite a lot, to the point its pogo but not completely "wide open" and ride it down same trail, I believe it you will get a faster MPH and a faster overall time. Bike will be bouncy and a lil bit of a handful to control and feel wallowy....bbuuuuutt I think its easier to over come a springy suspension with body english and pumping then, it is to ride a dead suspension, that packs up and reduces travel and geometry every hit. I think I could ride a bike with wide open rebound faster and easier than a bike with way too much rebound.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salespunk View Post
    I think that most people setup their bikes way too slow. I used to be guilty of this as well. My rebound settings on both my fork and rear shock are close to wide open now.
    Completely open?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yody View Post
    If you take any one of our bikes, and slow the rebound waay down, past the normal range but not quite to the point where its totally unusable . And go ride down a rocky trail at speed, the normal way you like to ride, I believe you will be slower, with a slower mph and a slower over all time, the bike will be ultra harsh and hard to ride. I could imagine getting thrown over the bars from the fork diving and not recovering for the next hit. Now go open the rebound quite a lot, to the point its pogo but not completely "wide open" and ride it down same trail, I believe it you will get a faster MPH and a faster overall time. Bike will be bouncy and a lil bit of a handful to control and feel wallowy....bbuuuuutt I think its easier to over come a springy suspension with body english and pumping then, it is to ride a dead suspension, that packs up and reduces travel and geometry every hit. I think I could ride a bike with wide open rebound faster and easier than a bike with way too much rebound.
    It is a mistake to consider rebound and compression independently
    The two go hand in hand, if you do one without the other you will end up in the weeds.
    The comments I have made about the faster riders have all mentioned a stiffer setup coupled with more rebound damping.

    slow and soft = pack down and harsh

    slow and stiff = poppy, bike skips over track

    fast + soft = pogo

    fast + stiff = poppy but less control esp on bigger hits - bucking

    The above is very very general.And when I say stiff this will be a cobination of spring rate and compression damping. I have learned that compression and rebound damping need to match think speed. Rate of compression should be complemented by rate of return.
    Position of clicks is irrelevant as all manufactures and custom tunes are different. Each time I got my shocks Pushed for example, the effect of the tune was to move useable range of compression and and or rebound more to the middle of the adjuster range

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    I pretty much agree with everything you're saying. I guess it really just depends on how slow you're talking about. Good info though. And yes, the clicks is just an adjustment for that range throughout whatever valving is on that piece of suspension. Change the valving up or down the scale and the adjustments only reflect from that range, especially shocks.

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    I keep a ledger / diary in my garage and write down everything I do. It takes about a minute but saves you a lot of time in guessing and re-doing setups that didn't work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by canuck_tacoma View Post
    I keep a ledger / diary in my garage and write down everything I do. It takes about a minute but saves you a lot of time in guessing and re-doing setups that didn't work.
    A guy on here recently released an iphone app to do it all for you. I think there was a thread on it recently in the suspension forum.
    I've found an app (iLogger) that lets me create my own sort of database, and keep track of it that way. Makes it easy to adjust on the trail and not have to remember anything.
    https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/bike...794196208?mt=8

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    Suspension Setup

    I'd like to add that I never get tired of watching Nico ride. You go posting videos of him to support your position, and I'll just grin and nod, buy whatever you're selling. Lol
    Good thread guys! Reminder that I'm past due for a lube n schlube, and while my setup is balanced front to back just as described in the article, I'm now wondering if the "fast as you can stand it" rebound philosophy I've always followed isn't worth revisiting.

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    Timed runs help. In the end the debate centered mainly on what fast riders do
    I run my setup soft and slowish cause I like comfort. I don't think my bod could stand up to the speeds the ripper ride at and the stiffness of their rigs

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    oh I love Nico riding too because is is not only talented but he is also methodical and precise in his setups. For those reasons I really like Fab Barel too

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    Speaking of videos, I know I specifically said that were taking about trail bikes and not dh bikes but watching this video the other day had me thinking about how these guys bikes are setup. They look pretty fast. No idea if they are not. Its not to prove any point but its some badass riding and the bike setup looks quick to me. Then again they land pretty flat and controlled of some pretty big jumps. Just some more food for thought.

    Specifically start watching after the 3 minute mark


    Rankin, Brayton, Vink - Ultimate Hucker Sender edit Video - Pinkbike

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    Nice riding.
    Met Adam a couple of time. Mate of mine did some filming with him as well
    I hate to say it but his setup (unless changed for the new frame - Demo 8) was ungodly stiff and as a result slowish too. You can't stick those big jumps without the suspension being very controlled. I saw him ride this insane step up that cleared a road - was down near the Scottish borders. Jump was like 60 plus feet.
    Anyhow, their backends skipping about on the slippery roots I would lay odds on is due to a slow stiff setup and they "manage" how the bike handles in those sections in order for the suspension to be what they need in the hard core tech sections or the big features
    But Adams previous bikes the banshee legend and and orange 224 I believe were slow and stiff I can ssure you because when I sat on the Banshee (called a Myhtic in UK) at Fort William I had no idea how he could possibly ride the thing! total opp to my Brooklyn Racelink setup lol

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    So here is a question for fellow mojo HD'ers:

    I have my suspension set up decently, had some issues early on but you guys helped fix those.

    Here is the question: I run the the front fork at 5 clicks from full fast rebound, the bike feels good, except at high speeds.( I don't run compression damping, I have a CTD 34(2013). The shock is run at 3 clicks from full slow, no compression( rp23).

    If I speed up the rebound( 1 click for the front and 1 click for the back), the bike feels good at high speed but is a little harsh and stiff at low speeds.

    Would less air pressure help with the low speed harshness. I sag the suspension around 25%?

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by nzl62 View Post
    Nice riding.
    Met Adam a couple of time. Mate of mine did some filming with him as well
    I hate to say it but his setup (unless changed for the new frame - Demo 8) was ungodly stiff and as a result slowish too. You can't stick those big jumps without the suspension being very controlled. I saw him ride this insane step up that cleared a road - was down near the Scottish borders. Jump was like 60 plus feet.
    Anyhow, their backends skipping about on the slippery roots I would lay odds on is due to a slow stiff setup and they "manage" how the bike handles in those sections in order for the suspension to be what they need in the hard core tech sections or the big features
    But Adams previous bikes the banshee legend and and orange 224 I believe were slow and stiff I can ssure you because when I sat on the Banshee (called a Myhtic in UK) at Fort William I had no idea how he could possibly ride the thing! total opp to my Brooklyn Racelink setup lol
    Static rebound is going to be slow to counter the stiff spring rate. Bouncing on the bike riding around at low speeds its gonna feel super slow as the shaft velocity is so slow. They are running more rebound. But when the bike gets going, its going to feel very fast from the unloading of the spring and the faster velocity, as well the position sensitive system comes into play as well. From the beginning I should of related that this is what I meant. This is why I can't just go along with it called " a slow stiff setup". Just look at these guys bikes in the video, how in the world do you come up with those bikes being slow, lol. They are popping around like a rabbit on crack.

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by saidrick View Post
    So here is a question for fellow mojo HD'ers:

    I have my suspension set up decently, had some issues early on but you guys helped fix those.

    Here is the question: I run the the front fork at 5 clicks from full fast rebound, the bike feels good, except at high speeds.( I don't run compression damping, I have a CTD 34(2013). The shock is run at 3 clicks from full slow, no compression( rp23).

    If I speed up the rebound( 1 click for the front and 1 click for the back), the bike feels good at high speed but is a little harsh and stiff at low speeds.

    Would less air pressure help with the low speed harshness. I sag the suspension around 25%?
    WHen you say speed up rebound, do you mean turning the clicker clockwise or counter clockwise? Speeding it up should make it less harsh and stiff. Going clockwise typically adds rebound making it slower. That will make the bike stiffer. And it sounds like you're frontend is a pogo and your rear is way to slow. I'm PM'ing you a recommendation

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    Quote Originally Posted by saidrick View Post
    So here is a question for fellow mojo HD'ers:

    I have my suspension set up decently, had some issues early on but you guys helped fix those.

    Here is the question: I run the the front fork at 5 clicks from full fast rebound, the bike feels good, except at high speeds.( I don't run compression damping, I have a CTD 34(2013). The shock is run at 3 clicks from full slow, no compression( rp23).

    If I speed up the rebound( 1 click for the front and 1 click for the back), the bike feels good at high speed but is a little harsh and stiff at low speeds.

    Would less air pressure help with the low speed harshness. I sag the suspension around 25%?
    I don't own any 2013 Fox stuff, but there are a lot of reports about them being under damped (compression). Try leaving everything else the same and switching to the Trail setting on the fork....could be feeling harsh at high speeds because it's blowing thru the travel and packing down....if so, it would make sense that faster rebound would alleviate some of the packing, but increasing the comp damping could be a better route.
    I don't normally care for much platform damping (especially on the back of a DW bike! No platform there!!!!), but the 2013 fox forks I rode on some pivot demos were better in trail mode for a little more support. Without it they'd really slam through the travel....
    What's your sag? Not sure if you were telling us its 25%, or asking. If more than 25% on the fork I'd try adding some air also to keep you higher in the stroke....with a corresponding adj of rebound damping of course.
    Most important thing is to change 1 thing at a time and ride, repeat.
    Last edited by doismellbacon; 02-09-2014 at 09:52 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by saidrick View Post
    So here is a question for fellow mojo HD'ers:

    I have my suspension set up decently, had some issues early on but you guys helped fix those.

    Here is the question: I run the the front fork at 5 clicks from full fast rebound, the bike feels good, except at high speeds.( I don't run compression damping, I have a CTD 34(2013). The shock is run at 3 clicks from full slow, no compression( rp23).

    If I speed up the rebound( 1 click for the front and 1 click for the back), the bike feels good at high speed but is a little harsh and stiff at low speeds.

    Would less air pressure help with the low speed harshness. I sag the suspension around 25%?
    You may have gathered from tall the posts that suspension setup is a compromise. Personally I think it is safer and faster to setup for high speed and get used to or ride around the issues relating to a slower stiffer setup on slower tech sections. Issues at high speed will potentially cause a greater crash or excessive comfort braking (I know this!) where as body position and using your arms and legs will sort you through the slower stuff. The fast guys I have been talking to all have made comments about their setups not being that great at slow speed. Having daid all that if the majority of what you ride is slower tech sectiosn you can be expected to run a softer more open setup

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by saidrick View Post
    So here is a question for fellow mojo HD'ers:

    I have my suspension set up decently, had some issues early on but you guys helped fix those.

    Here is the question: I run the the front fork at 5 clicks from full fast rebound, the bike feels good, except at high speeds.( I don't run compression damping, I have a CTD 34(2013). The shock is run at 3 clicks from full slow, no compression( rp23).

    If I speed up the rebound( 1 click for the front and 1 click for the back), the bike feels good at high speed but is a little harsh and stiff at low speeds.

    Would less air pressure help with the low speed harshness. I sag the suspension around 25%?
    My starting point for a DW bike is 35% Rear, 25% Front. The RP23 with its pro pedal system has a rebound control that does very little until about 5 clicks from closed. I can go into why but most of the work is done in the last 3 clicks. I was never happy with the RP23 because there was little compression control in the mid stroke and I struggled to get the rebound in the sweet spot. Mine was 1-3 clicks off full slow. 3 would be too fast on some things and 1 and 2 packed down to varying degrees.

    Leave your shock alone for a moment. Get your fork to about 25% or 40mm at 160 then I would start by actually dialling the rebound on the fork to full on, full closed that is, then I'd ride as short section of square edges. It will feel like crap but then you will know what it feels like at that extremity. Back off a click or two at a time. There will be a point at which you have the best control, hands can stay lightly gripped on bars. Then as you speed the rebound past the point you will notice that the forks starts to deflect. Some people have said that the sweet spot actually feels like you have dropped the pressure a touch. Spring rate (air pressure) and rebound first. Worry about compression later

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    Interesting comparison for those that care lol!

    My HD is built up with Vengeance HLR Air forks and Vector HLR Air shock with base DW tune per XF advice.
    My mates HD is stock with RP23 and 26 Talas.
    We both ride flats, ride aggressively, ride downhill in Masters/Vect 40+ cat podium level

    For most of our rides, I am faster. Its curious because he has better bike skills, I mean he can wheely for miles on end and has stoppies,cutties etc dialled. He jumps far better too. I had put my being faster down to my fitness over his.
    That was until we decided to swap bikes. OMFG I could not keep up with him, he was gone.
    Our setups are quite different, he needs to have a min of 180psi in Rp23 to avoid excessive bottom out so the back felt too firm. My shock felt quite soft by comparison.
    His fork was quite a bit faster.
    There was not much we could do to the shock. Frankly I think the RP23 is completely terrible. Mine pretty much went in the bin - or would have if it weren't for some idiot willing to pay 400 bucks kiwi for it.

    With the fork, we really slowed it down. My XF fork is about 7-8 click from full closed/full slow. We tried to get the 36 similar so I think it may have been similar - wasn't counting.
    Anyhow- suddenly high speed stability came to the other HD, this meant less braking, less grip needed to hang onto the bars. It was a crude comparison but it did serve to prove a point, you can go quite a bit slower than you think on your forks (make sure your shock matches to a certain extent). The benefit in stability is great, the fork doesn't need to fully rebound between every single rock

    Anyway the two setups were a great opportunity to compare dampers and their setups
    My XF kitted out bike was also almost silent by comparison. Aided by a Blackspire stinger and a slightly shorter chain and short cage Zee clutch mech.

    The other factor that has significantly improved my suspension are the new XT Trail brakes! My Formula The Ones were really off their game. Now less brake dragging means better suspension performance and increased stability = a bunch of strava PRs

    sorry for boring you all......

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    It's all good

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    Quote Originally Posted by nzl62 View Post
    then I would start by actually dialling the rebound on the fork to full on, full closed that is, then I'd ride as short section of square edges.
    Would a stair set be a good place to do this? I'm sure a rock garden would also work, but i'd be a little hesitant to go into one with speed with my rebound fully closed or open. Or is it equally effective to ride at a moderate pace through a downhill rock garden or a rock garden on relatively flat ground?

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    Whatever works for you but keep it safe and make it somewhere where you can get some speed up too, a couple of rocks with square edges one after the other, or a short curb, short section of rough track. You just want it easily repeatable

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    This thread has been a great reminder to remember:

    1) that everything is relative. One man's fast is another man's "kinda slow", etc. It's easy to argue about differences in something on MTBR when in reality there may be no difference at all

    2) to service your lowers regularly.... this suspension stuff works SOOO much better when it's not full of gravel... haha

    3) to keep good notes of your suspension settings.

    I know this, but I'd gotten a little lazy over the last year. I thought I knew what my settings were.... I was wrong. So after servicing my fork (ooohh so plush now), airing it up to what was accidentally 5psi lower than normal, and then saying WTH, I'll try a little extra rebound damping.... I was all over the place! Crashed more in the last 2 weeks than in the last year! Corrected pressure, sped up the rebound, over shot that adjustment a little bit, so dialed some LSR back in, and now everything feels great.... popping nicely off jumps, controlled in the chunk, and I'm ....... wait for it.....
    at exactly the same original settings.... haha!

    So, lessons learned, just maybe not the ones intended!

    Thanks for the bruised ribs BEotches!

    haha, Just kidding. (but I really did bruise ribs on the most dramatic of those get offs)

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    Suspension bracketing?

    Have any of you tried bracketing to set up your suspension? Inspired by this thread, i tried it the other day. The issue i ran into is this: do I experiment with say just the fork and then the shock? Both simultaneously? I tried doing both at the same time, because i found it difficult to separate what was going on up front from out back.

    http://www.leelikesbikes.com/wp-cont...bracketing.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by martinizer View Post
    Have any of you tried bracketing to set up your suspension? Inspired by this thread, i tried it the other day. The issue i ran into is this: do I experiment with say just the fork and then the shock? Both simultaneously? I tried doing both at the same time, because i found it difficult to separate what was going on up front from out back.

    http://www.leelikesbikes.com/wp-cont...bracketing.jpg
    I did something similar a few weeks ago with my Vector HLR air. I already had a good starting point so I started by going 4 clicks to either direction of that point. It's a very time consuming thing. Spent time adjusting spring rate, then rebound, then HSC, then LSC, then rebound again, then different combinations of all settings. So many different variables makes it a full day on the bike doing a short section of trail over and over. It was worth it though in the end.

  64. #64
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    God bless you guy's that really get deep into suspension tuning so that simpletons like me can get it right. Seriously. It is appreciated.

    I'm a Clyde at 230-235 geared up. I went on my 30 mile ride today and weighed my pack and it was 15.5lbs. Christ me and my Camelback seriously need to lose weight. But the ride I did today has everything. Pavement, shitty effing climbs, fast flowy singletrack, steep rocky rutted lose lines, drops, ruts, short punchy climbs. Etc & so-on.

    I was running a Push RS monarch RT with 6 clicks towards fast (10 total) & 35% sag. I converted my Mojo HD to 650B & had Suspension Experts build me a custom shimmed 2014 RS monarch plus. I had the travel reduced by 10mm. This shock has 20 clicks of rebound. What I am trying to figure out (I suck at math so please help) is since the stroke is now shortened from 2.5 to about 2.1. (At least that's what my fingers tell me) what would now be considered 35% sag on the RS sag guide? On today's ride I did bottom my shock a few times running 30% sag. I settled on 13 clicks towards the bunny rabbit and am finding I prefer leaving the shock in the middle compression setting (Mostly do to the fact that there are so many pedals sections on this ride and I got sick of reaching for the lever)

    My old shock & this new one are too completely different beasts. I know with time I will get the settings sorted out. I can usually tell when my rebound gets too fast. There is a perceptible harshness over those bad braking bumps that are rampant in my area. I was surprised that I was running so much rebound today. But I think that's a sign that I need to decrease (add air) sag setting. Also I was really surprised at the amount of PSI I needed to add. The RT I was using I had 190psi for 35% sag. This shock needed 230psi. I'm thinking about going to 25%. Am I wrong in thinking that my sag needs to be decreased since the shocks stroke was shortened? Also I'm thinking I will have to call suspension experts and ask if they installed any air volume reducers.

    On another note I have always ridden fox forks since they first came out. I've always sent them to Push to be tuned for a big boy like myself. I've never tried a CTD fork. Nor wanted to. I was an RLC man for life. I tried a few RC2 dampers but since my preference has always been going for long rides with climbing I've preferred RLC more. But I recently jumped ship and purchased two Pikes. My 650B is 160 travel & a 150 travel 29er. I haven't been able to ride the 29er yet. But have been blown away by the 650b fork. It's the first time ever that a fork worked for me out of the box without having any comprises. I have always felt that I had a good grasp on tuning forks. But I was feeling harshness when deep in the travel. I just couldn't figure it out. I called RS customer service and told them my story. Tuns out all those years of having to crank the knobs too much on my fox forks taught me some bad habits. I was told to add air, back off my rebound, and back off the LSC. Exactly what I think the article was telling me or what someone in this discussion mentioned. Either way The fork is now perfectly heavenly. 25% sag, 8 clicks of rebound towards fast, and 6 clicks LSC. if ya'll haven't tried the pike yet. It's heavenly. And I swear it feels stiffer than my 36.

    Well I think I'm rambling at this point so I will sign off. Thanks for the info and any suggestions about my rear shock will be appreciated.
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    Hi Mate, nice!

    HD std shock is 63mm stroke. So if you have dropped 10mm you now have a 53mm stroke so 35% of 53 is 18.55mm or .35 x 53. .3 x 53 is 15.9.

    We all get into bad habits with setup and riding style. Mine is dragging back brake. It has take a change to XT's from Formula Ones to start to address this. The resultant change in braking habits has resulted in better rear suspension performance for example.

    The exact position you have your rebound and compression dials is less important (as they change from tune to tune and manufacturer to manufacturer) than following the simple principals of suspension.

    So be mindful of stability, bump absorption, traction and maintaining bike geometry.
    I would say that stability is the main one and is more important than specific bump absorption. Stability aids control, traction and maintains predictable geometry - all traits that aid in riding faster, longer with max grins all round.
    Wicked that your setup is killing it for you.

  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by nzl62 View Post
    Hi Mate, nice!

    HD std shock is 63mm stroke. So if you have dropped 10mm you now have a 53mm stroke so 35% of 53 is 18.55mm or .35 x 53. .3 x 53 is 15.9.

    We all get into bad habits with setup and riding style. Mine is dragging back brake. It has take a change to XT's from Formula Ones to start to .
    Thanks for the info. Again remember that I use my fingers for math. So how much sag should I theoretically be running now? Is it really 18.55? VS the 35% I used to run?

    I also just bailed on Formula brakes. I just got sick of the poor pad retraction, the rotors rubbing against the piston housing, the dot fluid bleeding out underneath the handlebar clamp, dot fluid in general. I scored some XT & XTR'S on chainlove for an insane price and I love them. Where I ride the runs are so long & steep that I have to do some serious brake dragging to keep my speed in check. But I love the Shimano stoppers. What shocks me though is the heat discoloration on my Shimano ice tech rotors. It's the same discoloration that happens to new motorcycle exhaust pipes up by the motor. It's crazy.
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  67. #67
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    %35 sag is pretty excessive on any bike, shoot for 25-30. Knowing where you are in the suspension curve is important, but riding around at nearly half the shock stroke is not right.
    friends don't let friends Fred

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yody View Post
    %35 sag is pretty excessive on any bike, shoot for 25-30. Knowing where you are in the suspension curve is important, but riding around at nearly half the shock stroke is not right.
    When I first purchased my HD the guy who sold me the frame told me to set it at 30% and go ride. I thought he was nuts. I tried 25% which is where I always set it at and it felt not too good. Not the magic feeling that everyone was raving about. I went to 30% and it was real nice. I read that a lot of HD owners were using 35% so I tried it and the experience was magical over the braking bumps and the long downhills. At least for my experience and the area & conditions where I ride. I've never ran so much sag before. But again this is my first DW link bike. They like sag.

    But back to the basis of my particular question was since my shock stroke was shortened by 10mm I am wanting to know where my new 35% sag measurement would be on the sag guide that's on my RS shock.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yody View Post
    %35 sag is pretty excessive on any bike, shoot for 25-30. Knowing where you are in the suspension curve is important, but riding around at nearly half the shock stroke is not right.
    Based on what. Im sorry that is a really dumb statement. Complete miss-information

    On an xc bike sure, on a dh rig, then 35-40 can be the sweet spot depending on linkage.
    Even DW himself on numerous posts has stated that 30-35 seems to be the sweet spot for his DW linkage bikes. One of the fastest enduro rider I know runs 40 on an HD whilst others run 25. Depends on so many factors yet here you are again making broad baseless statements. I don't want to get into a slanging match but that is far too general a statement on a forum thread where we are discussing suspension setups.

    IMO opinion, anyone running 25% on the mojo HD should check that his/her shock is running properly. And if you are running 25 in the rear, then are you running 15 up front? And if not how are you accounting for the 60/40 weight distribution that we generally have on a mountainbike.

    Sorry, had to jump in there because thats a foolish generalist statement

  70. #70
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    My Push tuned Monarch AM is really nice at 33% sag.

  71. #71
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    This guy weighs 250 pounds ready to ride. % 30 sag is the mosti would recommend
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  72. #72
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    Crickets?
    friends don't let friends Fred

  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yody View Post
    This guy weighs 250 pounds ready to ride. % 30 sag is the mosti would recommend
    Who're you calling 250? That's 235 geared. Just weighed my pack for the hell of it and realized it was 15lbs.
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  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by nzl62 View Post
    Based on what. Im sorry that is a really dumb statement. Complete miss-information

    On an xc bike sure, on a dh rig, then 35-40 can be the sweet spot depending on linkage.
    Even DW himself on numerous posts has stated that 30-35 seems to be the sweet spot for his DW linkage bikes. One of the fastest enduro rider I know runs 40 on an HD whilst others run 25. Depends on so many factors yet here you are again making broad baseless statements. I don't want to get into a slanging match but that is far too general a statement on a forum thread where we are discussing suspension setups.

    IMO opinion, anyone running 25% on the mojo HD should check that his/her shock is running properly. And if you are running 25 in the rear, then are you running 15 up front? And if not how are you accounting for the 60/40 weight distribution that we generally have on a mountainbike.

    Sorry, had to jump in there because thats a foolish generalist statement
    I don't want to get into some long drawn out internet debate with you but I'll just say a few things.

    The deeper you run that sag the farther you are into the curve of the suspension, personally I want to have active suspension, not a mushy midstroke wallow bike. I agree that %30 is the ideal sag for these bikes, and yes %35 can work as well, although I'd say if you're running that deep of sag (getting close to %40) then I'd hope you would understand the compromises you're making. Why does anyone need that much negative travel? Sounds to me like a "plow bike". Something that just has traction, but never leaves the ground and has less "pump". I want my bike to have some platform to push off of, not just sit in the mid stroke all the time. Maybe if a rider just stands off the seat and lets the bike do all the work for them, then the deep sag might falsely feel better. All of my recommendations are for setting up a bike to go fast. For me it would be a compromised setup to have to run the air spring extra progressive to avoid bottom out at %35-40 sag. Would make a funky setup. Now if a guy is just an average ol mountain biker who never has intentions of "pinning it" and just plain ol like the squishy feel of deep sag than more power to them, but I believe in setting up a bike correctly and then learning how to ride it correctly. Not ride the same way and tune the bike around your weaknesses.

    Also I'd like to see the DH bike that has the suspension linkage clocked to have %40 sag. Maybe there is but I can't think of one manufacturer that has designed their suspension to be ran at nearly half its travel at the sag point.

    The guy says he's 235 pounds (sorry not 250, whatever) I'm not so sure he should be running such deep sag. And if they reduced the stroke of the shock making it shorter, than the bike is already sitting deeper in the travel, meaning he might want to run less sag (like he stated he was thinking of doing for that exact reason)
    friends don't let friends Fred

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    and for the record, its just all internet banter, no offense taken on anything. This stuff makes you think for sure. but yet again were arguing over minor details. Feels stupid in retrospect
    Last edited by Yody; 02-20-2014 at 09:41 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by doismellbacon View Post
    My Push tuned Monarch AM is really nice at 33% sag.
    Hey Bacon. I know that you did the 650B mod. What I can't recall is if you are running 140 (with the 2.0 or 2.25 rear) or the modified 160 rear shock? If it's the 160 travel mode and you shortened your stroke are you now getting by with 33% sag?

    I know with time I will figure out what my new ideal sag measurement will be. But getting suggestions here will be easier from people who have done the mod.

    Yody, I was just trying to razz you with the 250 comment. Facetiousness doesn't translate and I forgot the little "Winky eye" to imply it although just writing that feels gay
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  77. #77
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    Lol, I read it like three times to make sure. I knew thats what you meant
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    Hey nzl62, what's your rider weight? That'd help put your numbers in context.

    I'm expecting my own new Vector Air with the dw-link tune to arrive shortly, and I'm very excited. It'll be going on my 650b HD140, and hopefully I can stay with the full 2.25" stroke.

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    Right, some of the concepts have gone off the rails a bit here.

    Sag is sag
    rider weight is rider weight.
    The are not relative to each other and only connected by spring rate / air pressure.
    To suggest that some one that is 205, 235 or 250 lb out not exceed a certain sag displays a little misunderstanding of suspension.
    The ONLY reasons why someone heavier may need to run less sag is if the damper is not correctly setup for their weight - specifically compression tune and or bottom resistance.
    So if a rider is 250lb and is not exceeding rider weight limits for any of the components there is absolutely zero reason that they need to consider sag differently to a rider at say 175.
    The real world problem is that most dampers are pretuned to an average weight - approx 11-12 stone in old money depending on brand.
    So with a damper like the fox rp23 you are screwed eaually if you are too light or too heavy. With something like the vector air hlr, where hsc and lsc as well as ifp pressure and volume are adjustable then you can pretty much run whatever sag you want. I run 35% It seems to be the best on this shock and this frame between plushness, pedalling and geometry stability. I am 187lb. To yield 35% sag on this shock MY shock pump (fox digital) reads approx 115-118psi.

    Now if you are heavier and you want to run 30- 35% sag and you bottom out or wallow excessively then you need a retune to your weight.
    On forks bottom out is normally internally adjusted. So a retune or change in oil weight / oil level for open bath forks may be needed.

    The point I am trying to make is that sag is sag, spring rate is spring rate and rider weight is rider weight. If you have to run potentially non optimal sag due to light weight or heavy weight then the damper is a fault. I am sick and tired of expensive, poorly performing, lowest common denominator products and thats why I am loving the X Fusion gear. I cannot express how terrible the fox rp23 is on this frame. It is gobshiteingly terrible. I urge anyone still running one to at the very least try an XF Vector, CCDBA, RS Monarch plus, Zocche TST.

    The reason why we ride these kinds of bikes is to travel quickly over rough variable terrain whilst maintaining control and there inducing grin factor. For that to happen, suspension setup is key and key to suspension setup is setting sag and understanding that sag is very important and too little can be just as bad for dynamic stability, speed and control as too much

  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by nzl62 View Post
    Right, some of the concepts have gone off the rails a bit here.

    Sag is sag
    rider weight is rider weight.
    The are not relative to each other and only connected by spring rate / air pressure.
    To suggest that some one that is 205, 235 or 250 lb out not exceed a certain sag displays a little misunderstanding of suspension.
    The ONLY reasons why someone heavier may need to run less sag is if the damper is not correctly setup for their weight - specifically compression tune and or bottom resistance.
    So if a rider is 250lb and is not exceeding rider weight limits for any of the components there is absolutely zero reason that they need to consider sag differently to a rider at say 175.
    The real world problem is that most dampers are pretuned to an average weight - approx 11-12 stone in old money depending on brand.
    So with a damper like the fox rp23 you are screwed eaually if you are too light or too heavy. With something like the vector air hlr, where hsc and lsc as well as ifp pressure and volume are adjustable then you can pretty much run whatever sag you want. I run 35% It seems to be the best on this shock and this frame between plushness, pedalling and geometry stability. I am 187lb. To yield 35% sag on this shock MY shock pump (fox digital) reads approx 115-118psi.

    Now if you are heavier and you want to run 30- 35% sag and you bottom out or wallow excessively then you need a retune to your weight.
    On forks bottom out is normally internally adjusted. So a retune or change in oil weight / oil level for open bath forks may be needed.

    The point I am trying to make is that sag is sag, spring rate is spring rate and rider weight is rider weight. If you have to run potentially non optimal sag due to light weight or heavy weight then the damper is a fault. I am sick and tired of expensive, poorly performing, lowest common denominator products and thats why I am loving the X Fusion gear. I cannot express how terrible the fox rp23 is on this frame. It is gobshiteingly terrible. I urge anyone still running one to at the very least try an XF Vector, CCDBA, RS Monarch plus, Zocche TST.

    The reason why we ride these kinds of bikes is to travel quickly over rough variable terrain whilst maintaining control and there inducing grin factor. For that to happen, suspension setup is key and key to suspension setup is setting sag and understanding that sag is very important and too little can be just as bad for dynamic stability, speed and control as too much
    Very well said.
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  81. #81
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    118psi? Whoa, that's low. Wonder what kind of air can that thing has to run such low pressure
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    a ****ing good one...this shock is stunning

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    Running a bunch of hsc and bottom out i take it
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    No, as far as I know this is a low pressure shock like the marzocchi TST I had on before - it ran at about 110. I have added about 4 clicks of HSC and LSC ( or about 10-15% of range) and am only about 10% above min reservoir pressure. Reb approx 75% of range or about 7-8 clicks from fully closed. Its a really nice shock. It had the DW tune. I really rate it on the HD. Not sure if it is a port or shim stack damper but I can run it supple without excess wallow or bottom out. Strava is bearing out my thoughts and I am getting PR's all over the hill.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yody View Post
    118psi? Whoa, that's low. Wonder what kind of air can that thing has to run such low pressure
    It has a larger diameter air can and and damper body than a Fox or similar. It's pretty dramatic when you see them next to each other. Larger diameter = larger air spring cross-sectional area = lower pressure required to apply the same spring force (pressure being force over an area).

    The reverse logic explains why the Scott Genius and Fox Dyad (Cannondale) shocks need to run such high pressures. To fit two air springs in the space available in the frame, the air cans have to be a smaller diameter.

    As far as I know, there isn't any inherent benefit to using a high pressure or low pressure air spring design. I don't know what the specific engineering reason for the larger diameter on the Vector is, but I would speculate it gives you more volume to work with when designing a better damper.

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    For a 215lb rider, I run 135psi in my Vector. I'm use to running 200+ with anything fox, and 180+ with my RS. It was weird and odd to run such a low pressure, as it wasn't my "norm".

    Also very little HSC and LSC.

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    Quote Originally Posted by d-bug View Post
    For a 215lb rider, I run 135psi in my Vector. I'm use to running 200+ with anything fox, and 180+ with my RS. It was weird and odd to run such a low pressure, as it wasn't my "norm".

    Also very little HSC and LSC.
    Interesting Dan, thanks for commenting and confirming that they do run such low psi. What kind of sag number are you running?

    Why barely any LSC? The HD doesn't feel very plush but it sure does Fly over stuff with a bunch of compression
    Last edited by Yody; 02-22-2014 at 11:38 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by lazarus2405 View Post
    It has a larger diameter air can and and damper body than a Fox or similar. It's pretty dramatic when you see them next to each other. Larger diameter = larger air spring cross-sectional area = lower pressure required to apply the same spring force (pressure being force over an area).

    The reverse logic explains why the Scott Genius and Fox Dyad (Cannondale) shocks need to run such high pressures. To fit two air springs in the space available in the frame, the air cans have to be a smaller diameter.

    As far as I know, there isn't any inherent benefit to using a high pressure or low pressure air spring design. I don't know what the specific engineering reason for the larger diameter on the Vector is, but I would speculate it gives you more volume to work with when designing a better damper.
    I'd take a guess and same the big volume allows a more linear feeling for the more coil like feel since this is supposed to be a Downhill Air shock?
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  89. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by nzl62 View Post
    No, as far as I know this is a low pressure shock like the marzocchi TST I had on before - it ran at about 110. I have added about 4 clicks of HSC and LSC ( or about 10-15% of range) and am only about 10% above min reservoir pressure. Reb approx 75% of range or about 7-8 clicks from fully closed. Its a really nice shock. It had the DW tune. I really rate it on the HD. Not sure if it is a port or shim stack damper but I can run it supple without excess wallow or bottom out. Strava is bearing out my thoughts and I am getting PR's all over the hill.
    Sounds solid. A friend of mine who is a really talented rider (joebmx) who would prob school most people on this forum(dbug can confirm this), has been running the Vector and the 170 xfusion fork on his HD with an angle set for quite some time now (think he got one of the first runs). I watch him use a lot of effort to climb and keeping speed on flat, but when the trail points down he looks more than comfortable and he also uses the bike for Whistler. Not my type of setup but he does very well with it. I do more trail riding, not just easy up and rip it down, so I don't want the "mini-dh" setup.
    friends don't let friends Fred

  90. #90
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    I hear what you are saying Yody, but the strange thing is that for me, my climbs are getting a whole load faster. It may intuitively seem too soft to you but the XF stuff seems to hold it right height pretty well. Having said that, I raced this weekend and my "playing in the wood tune" was too soft once the speed picked up some and something odd in the forks contributed to an OTB moment on a tight steep blown out corner. I suspect that my air pressure was too low. As the forks are getting well and truly run in I am upping the pressure quite a bit. Anyhow - 5th in Masters 2 cat with three crashes so can't complain too much

  91. #91
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    lol dayumn three crashes! haha, I remember during a super-D race (cccx for dbug) I went OTB hard and tore the threads in my front tire casing, looked like a bent wheel, finished off the race and still came midpack. I'm a terrible racer tho, never prepared and get way too anxious and blow up first third of course, over doing it.

    That is a nice thing about the DW, even with a DH shock and deep sag it still pedals pretty awesome. I think the reason my friend uses more effort on the climbs has more to do with the tall fork and angleset (and heavy tires).

    I respect your input what you're saying. When you're just flow riding the softer tune lets you float thru the trails and feels awesome with everythign disappearing under you but when you start pinning it and charge, the bike starts getting out of whack and it loses that controlled feel. Makes complete sense. I think thats a very sharp perception and really goes to show what we're talking about here.

    It might only be small changes, but suspension setup sure does alter depending on the speed you're going. I think many of us (or is just me?) tend to be inconsistent, riding better some days than others, which is why we (if you are perceptive enough to notice) are constantly fiddling with the suspension, and why as time goes on and we get better/faster our setup changes. Also why we end up with these online debates, because we all ride at different speeds, styles, and terrain. Saying that though, there is still an acceptable baseline and setup and IMO shouldn't be too far off from that.\

    Really though we're pretty much just bike geeks, and I'll admit it. There are so many badass riders who don't know what they're doing with their setups and have them all funky and still mash up hill and kill it DH. I've been dropped uphill and downhill by guys on inferior machines with whack setups. No replacement for seat time and natural talent. For the rest of us though its in our advantage to tweek our bike the best we can, I'll take all the help I can
    friends don't let friends Fred

  92. #92
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    And i've had the flu all week and haven't been able to ride, hence why I've just been sitting here online talkin bike suspension ugh
    friends don't let friends Fred

  93. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yody View Post
    Interesting Dan, thanks for commenting and confirming that they do run such low psi. What kind of sag number are you running?

    Why barely any LSC? The HD doesn't feel very plush but it sure does Fly over stuff with a bunch of compression
    Sag is in the 30% range. I have never measured the actual amount. I adjust it based on 2 things: how good it feels over the terrain I'm riding, and how well it climbs. Too much sag and the bike feels good over bumps, but is a pig to climb with. I feel I have too much weight going back and it's a struggle to climb well. Too little sag and the suspension feels rough but climbs better. I have yet to be able to make the air feel as balanced as the coil version. The coil rides higher in travel, which makes for better climbing, but it still plusher and more responsive.

    I run the minimal amount of LSC as I can. I add it until bobbing goes away, which is usually just a few clicks. The Vector RC has just a single compression knob, which makes it easy to add a bunch for a climb, and remove it for a DH. Unfortunately the HLR has a tiny LSC knob, so I never mess with it while riding.

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    Yup thats pretty much how I set sag too, the Monarch Plus just happens to have the lazer etched sag indicator on it which is easy to see when you look down, otherwise I wouldn't know that I'm always between 28-32 percent....as long as that writing is correct.

    Makes sense since that HLR is pretty much a DH shock, would be cool if they added a flip lever like on that new CCDBA. I know the HD climbs good without it, but for long grinds, I like having a flip lever for full compression. Seems like my back gets less sore when the bike doesn't sag as much when I'm pedaling.

    You still contemplating 650?
    friends don't let friends Fred

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    Somebody asked about my setup a while back and I missed the post. I'm actually running an SL, not an HD/R, with a Monarch AM (LSC adjust on high flow damper w/ NO platform) that was shimmed to approx 130mm travel by PUSH. With no platform, it's really plush off the top.... that coupled with low volume air can for some progression and my desire to keep bb height in check w/ 650b wheels is part of the reason why I'm running 33% sag....prior to that, at 140mm travel w/ 26" rear wheel and stock low bb height, I was running more like 28-30% sag.... very much in line with Yody's comments.

    I've got this bike built up just about as stiff & burly as it can get..... it's been GREAT, but I'm flogging it for all it's worth, and I can get out of shape in fast chunder vs a stiffer/slacker bike. I've been pining for an HD for a long time, and I hope I can finally make the HDR happen this year.

    Where'd Mav go? This is a great thread he started, now he's MIA.... Well, maybe at least one of us is out riding! LOL (btw, get well, Yody! Been a gnarly flu season...sucks).
    This is why I like the Ibis forum.... there's a core group of capable and experienced riders, who are smart and opinionated, but don't get all butt hurt when there's disagreement.

    Cheers, gentlemen!

  96. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yody View Post
    Yup thats pretty much how I set sag too, the Monarch Plus just happens to have the lazer etched sag indicator on it which is easy to see when you look down, otherwise I wouldn't know that I'm always between 28-32 percent....as long as that writing is correct.

    Makes sense since that HLR is pretty much a DH shock, would be cool if they added a flip lever like on that new CCDBA. I know the HD climbs good without it, but for long grinds, I like having a flip lever for full compression. Seems like my back gets less sore when the bike doesn't sag as much when I'm pedaling.

    You still contemplating 650?
    650 is not in my foreseeable future. But a Ripley is...

  97. #97
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    This may have already been posted, but I cant be bothered scanning though all the posts, this thread was started to clear confusion not instigate more, KISS people!

    For the geeks this is a great way to map your data, Im giving it a whirl for kicks n giggles!

    Bike setup App

    More good info here on sicklines

  98. #98
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    I've got the App. It's a good idea but needs some polish. For starters, I wish you could start a new suspension setup that carried all of the previous values over, rather than have to re-enter everything--a real PITA.

  99. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick005 View Post
    This may have already been posted, but I cant be bothered scanning though all the posts, this thread was started to clear confusion not instigate more, KISS people!

    For the geeks this is a great way to map your data, Im giving it a whirl for kicks n giggles!

    Bike setup App

    More good info here on sicklines
    Hey, this is my app, thanks for giving it a whirl and a plug!

    Quote Originally Posted by martinizer View Post
    I've got the App. It's a good idea but needs some polish. For starters, I wish you could start a new suspension setup that carried all of the previous values over, rather than have to re-enter everything--a real PITA.
    A duplicate function is one of the things that will be in the first update along with a bunch of other tweaks. Thanks for purchasing!
    Record your bike setup on your iPhone http://www.bike-setup.com

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