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  1. #1
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    So When Is Shimano Going to Offer A 11 Speed MTB Drivetrain?

    XX1 is awesome and so far proven. While its not quite in the budget I'd love to pull the trigger on the rear setup, while retaining a normal crank/ring/chainguide up front. Question is though; is Shimano going to release something to counter the Sram setup? I guess we will see sea otter....unless anyone here knows anything?

  2. #2
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    SRAM is going to X0 and X9 the 11 speed soon. They said so in a release a few weeks ago.

    It'll probably be available September/October timeframe as 2014 models.

    For now, go ahead and grab an XX1 crank as they are comparatively cheap for a carbon crank, and run a 1x10 setup until the X0/X9 cassette/derailleur/shifter come out.

    -Tom

  3. #3
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    I want the 11 speed out back. I don't need a new crank, and I don't mind running a guide so no need for the fancy chainring. Just want that pizza pie ring out back to help spin better up steep(r) climbs. Currently running a shimano 1x10

  4. #4
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    I may be wrong but I don't think you can combine with xx1 stuff out back with a non-xx1 crank. You CAN use the xx1 with non 11 speed stuff though.

  5. #5
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    The only difference is the chain. And if I recall correctly, the chain works on regular chain rings

  6. #6
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    The only thing that I don't like about xx1 is the 10T cog that you would have to change the freehub just to accomodate that. I hope shimano will make something to counter this.

  7. #7
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    11-43!
    @pinkrobeyyc
    #pinkrobeyyc

  8. #8
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    I'd wait til sea otter. You going this year yody?

    lets ride!

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinkrobe View Post
    11-43!
    You'd need 11-46 to be the same ratios, but I agree with the direction. Not like a 42T is small already...special 10T hub is dumb if the goal is a quick transition of the industry and world domination.

  10. #10
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    Except that

    a) the current free hub design kinda sucks. Admit it.
    b) if you forgot about costs and standards for a second, the XD1 driver is an actual better design, idea, and implementation of attaching a cassette to a wheel

    Soooo, what do you do? Try to sign on to the old sucky standard, or say "the path to world domination is to come up with something ACTUALLY BETTER and get others to use it"?

    -Tom

    edit: disclaimer, I'm a SRAM mountain, Shimano road kind of guy. I like the big "click" you get out of a SRAM X0/XX shifter that you don't out of XT/XTR And I hate the SRAM Double Tap road stuff compared to the way Shimano road shifters work.

  11. #11
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    Never had an issue with the freehub on any of the 8 or so brands I've used...So not sure what needed fixing. Not that everything can't be made better, but the word "standard" has become a loose term these days.

    I don't care about clicks...I care about things just working when I use them without being finicky...9 speed SRAM was that to a tee...2x10 speed, much less so, type 2 works great on some bikes, clunks on others...SRAM needs to get their ducks aligned before moving forward. Hammerschmidt was the only crazy evolutionary drivetrain product that killed it in many years and they failed to give that the continued R&D support it needed to take off.

    Like you I'm on SRAM mountain and Shimano road stuff, but right now it's strictly due to not wanting to buy a completely new drivetrain for several bikes.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by phatfreeheeler View Post
    Never had an issue with the freehub on any of the 8 or so brands I've used...So not sure what needed fixing. Not that everything can't be made better, but the word "standard" has become a loose term these days.

    I don't care about clicks...I care about things just working when I use them without being finicky...9 speed SRAM was that to a tee...2x10 speed, much less so, type 2 works great on some bikes, clunks on others...SRAM needs to get their ducks aligned before moving forward. Hammerschmidt was the only crazy evolutionary drivetrain product that killed it in many years and they failed to give that the continued R&D support it needed to take off.

    Like you I'm on SRAM mountain and Shimano road stuff, but right now it's strictly due to not wanting to buy a completely new drivetrain for several bikes.

    Clearly people dont read, can't or won't, XX1 was not desinged to improve the existing cassette body for every group set, the XD driver body came about to provide the nessecary gear ratios suitable to a true single ring solution for this groupo.

    This is only one part of a group as a whole.

    XX1 is also not finicky its set and forget, as usual doing it right is key, Ive been around cycling a long time and Ive seen this every-time a new group comes out and yes it happened with 9spd as well, the difference was it really was just adding another gear and each time we had our challenges.

    I was a fan of HS too. But it had one fundamental problem it is not compatible with the many designs and linkages out they're, sometimes great ideas just don't fit the market. Just too many obstacles to overcome.

    No one is saying and lest of all Sram to get rid of your 10spd or even 9spd setups if thats what YOU want, there is nothing wrong with a good 2x10 setup well, other than a front derailluer.

    Nothing is perfect and never will be, but this is one group that performs for the price! Unlike a number of other high end parts I could name, under performing suspension mainly.

    If you dont like XX1 fine dont buy it, it was never intended for the masses. Even when it becomes available for X9, X0 it will only suit those who understand it. Eventually it will filter down to bikes and hubs etc etc and will be better dialled into accept existing designs without much ado and people will finally be riding mountain bikes not road bikes with nobbies.

    It will happen because it does what many groups have failed to do before not lest HS! it will lower cost, be much simpler maintenance, lower cost of replacement parts less is more and less time messing around and more time riding and with better mtn gear ratios, until you've tried it for sometime this one will miss many its hard to grasp but it does.

    If you want other options now to run an expanded rear cluster setup matching your exisitng 10 speed then maybe this is an option for you rather than trying to butcher a group that was designed to work together from the ground up, its no wonder people will have problems, just don't blame Sam for that, again its clear why this is a standalone group set, think about it.

    From Spokemag

    General Lee cassette option, use google translate if you don't speak Italian.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by phatfreeheeler View Post
    You'd need 11-46 to be the same ratios, but I agree with the direction. Not like a 42T is small already...special 10T hub is dumb if the goal is a quick transition of the industry and world domination.
    Problem is the top end. An 11-32 will spin out around 25 mph for most people with a normal cadence. I am running a 38T with my XX1 because I like a slow cadence while descending.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salespunk View Post
    Problem is the top end. An 11-32 will spin out around 25 mph for most people with a normal cadence. I am running a 38T with my XX1 because I like a slow cadence while descending.
    38t wth!

    Where do you ride no wonder people want big wheels

    How can you spin out of corners if too big a gear, I notice Anne C using a 30t, no doubt this would change depending on terrain courses etc

    For racing I could go to a 34t but rarely do I top out and I would like more technical trails, 38t would just kill me here.

  15. #15
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    Does General Lee cassette option compatible with shimano 10 speed cassette and rd?

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yody View Post
    XX1 is awesome and so far proven. While its not quite in the budget I'd love to pull the trigger on the rear setup, while retaining a normal crank/ring/chainguide up front. Question is though; is Shimano going to release something to counter the Sram setup? I guess we will see sea otter....unless anyone here knows anything?
    Hey Yody, I was told by a shamino rep that it may or may not happen. They have built some 11 speeds to test, but are unsure of bringing it to market. This was 2 months ago when the rep was at my lbs.

  17. #17
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    They will be out with 11 spd since it is already on DA. They said the same thing about 10 spd as well. It should be noted that Shimano's 11 spd also requires a different freehub.

    XX1 is the real deal. I have been an XTR diehard for 20 years and have owned every iteration. My love of Shimano started with XT top mount thumb shifters! My hatred of SRAM started with 7 spd Gripshift and grew unabated until this year. Understanding that background, this is the best group I have ever run. Way less noise than my clutched XTR 10spd setup. Shifts clean and not a single chain drop in two months of rocky Socal riding.

    I use the 10T on longer/straighter sections of the Enduro courses we see here. Typically I am in it at around 25 mph, but I don't use it for exiting corners

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salespunk View Post
    They will be out with 11 spd since it is already on DA. They said the same thing about 10 spd as well. It should be noted that Shimano's 11 spd also requires a different freehub.

    XX1 is the real deal. I have been an XTR diehard for 20 years and have owned every iteration. My love of Shimano started with XT top mount thumb shifters! My hatred of SRAM started with 7 spd Gripshift and grew unabated until this year. Understanding that background, this is the best group I have ever run. Way less noise than my clutched XTR 10spd setup. Shifts clean and not a single chain drop in two months of rocky Socal riding.

    I use the 10T on longer/straighter sections of the Enduro courses we see here. Typically I am in it at around 25 mph, but I don't use it for exiting corners
    Irode a new specialized enduro recently at my lbs and it had the 11 speed on there. I found it to be really notchy and not very smooth. My xtr is much less notchy and seems much smoother, but older xtr 2010 seems smoother still, but I was not sure about the sram stuff. I am like you, Shamino all the way, but the 11 speed has me intrigued. The weight savings alone is pretty big. I don't think I would get the sram one, but might give the Shamino 11 speed a try once it comes out.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by ibismojo09 View Post
    Does General Lee cassette option compatible with shimano 10 speed cassette and rd?
    It does state Sram only, maybe send them an email and ask if it can be done.

  20. #20
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    interim option, 1x10 11-41 XT frankencassette

    So I have a couple rides on this experiment: a 41t cog from mtbTools, standard XT 11-36 cassette, and a Miche 16t cog. (The 41t gets added to the end, and the 15 & 17's are replaced by the 16t.) So this gives me gearing of:
    41-36-32-28-24-21-19-16-13-11
    With the 32t MRP bling ring up front, that gives me a nice range of gearing for rides with lots of climbing. I'll probably switch out to a 34 or 36t up front for everyday trail rides, but for all-day mountain (Tahoe) excursions with lots of climbing and high altitude, this sea-level schlub will be happy for the additional low gear, thank you very much.

    The 13-->16 shift is a little clunky, as would be expected compared to the 13-->15 standard. But it's a small price to pay for the increased range. The third-party cogs play surprisingly well with the XT cassette. I'm not suggesting this is a replacement for XX1 by any means, but for $45 total ($35 for the mtbTools cog, $10 for the Miche) it's a step in the right direction (and fun to tinker!).

    PS: I threw on there a cheapy long cage SLX derailleur (w/clutch) b/c I was a little nervous about my medium cage XT having adequate range for the monster 41t. So that's the next stage of the experiment, to see whether it'll work with the shorter cage and chain.

    So When Is Shimano Going to Offer A 11 Speed MTB Drivetrain?-cog_01.jpg

    So When Is Shimano Going to Offer A 11 Speed MTB Drivetrain?-cog_02.jpg
    Last edited by budgie; 03-09-2013 at 04:48 PM.
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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by budgie View Post
    So I have a couple rides on this experiment: a 41t cog from mtbTools, ]
    i was interestd in this option too but isnt torque applied to single 41 cog going to damage freehub body? also it doesnt seem to be available anymore

  22. #22
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    Yeah, that's something to keep an eye on, but freehubs need replacing once in a while anyway, so worth the risk IMO. I'll let you know how it goes. This is only a short term solution until 11spd trickles down, hopefully this summer.
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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick005 View Post
    Ive seen this every-time a new group comes out and yes it happened with 9spd as well, the difference was it really was just adding another gear and each time we had our challenges.
    8 to 9sp transition s*cked way more than 9 to 10. The first gen 9speed stuff was terrible. remember the bass worm and all the other cr*p that we had to do to get stuff to shift. Lots of folks stayed 8sp for a good while. Plus I couldn't find any good 9 speed thumbsifters except for suntour XC pro that had an extra click.

    If you want reliable find a 7 speed XT rear der with the torsion spring. now those things stayed in tune.

    Nostalgia aside, my next bike is XX1--that stuff is awesome. Anyone want a lightly used XX drivetrain?
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  24. #24
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    budgie, any updates on your new setup? have you tried with med cage xt?

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    Quote Originally Posted by brankulo View Post
    i was interestd in this option too but isnt torque applied to single 41 cog going to damage freehub body? also it doesnt seem to be available anymore
    I would think the torque is the same,if not less, than a 22-36.

  26. #26
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    Sorry, not yet. Will try to swap it in this weekend. Stay tuned...

    Loving the gearing, though! Nice to have a sit & spin gear for steeps once again.
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  27. #27
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    i have 41 cog on order. have 11-32 cassete right now. thinking just getting rid of 11 to see how it will work.

  28. #28
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    Cool! Nice to have company in this little Frankencog experiment.

    Just FYI: the 36-->41 jump is a little rough, so be prepared for that to be even more so with the 32-->41. i have the B-limit screw cranked all the way in, to get enough space for the pulley wheel to ride up onto the big cog. And you're probably aware of this already, but if you drop the 11t you'll need to get a threaded 12t to receive the lockring. Personally I wanted to have the range of the 11t at the high end, which is why I opted to dump the 15 & 17 instead (and replace w/16).
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  29. #29
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    i see what you are saying with 11. will have to drop 13. will most likely be getting 11-36 cassette if everything works well.

  30. #30
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    got my first ride with 41 cog setup. using xt shadow plus with medium cage. had to back b screw and adjust cable tension a bit to get it going. paired with my current 11-32 cassette, shift from 32 to 41 was what i was worried about but it worked quite fine. not as crisp and fast but still pretty decent. its nice not having to worry about two shifters. i will be giving it more riding time next week but i am pretty positive i will stick with it. just need to lenghten my chain a bit and eventually get 11-36 cassette.

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    Quote Originally Posted by budgie View Post

    The 13-->16 shift is a little clunky, as would be expected compared to the 13-->15 standard. But it's a small price to pay for the increased range. The third-party cogs play surprisingly well with the XT cassette. I'm not suggesting this is a replacement for XX1 by any means, but for $45 total ($35 for the mtbTools cog, $10 for the Miche) it's a step in the right direction (and fun to tinker!).

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Click image for larger version. 

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    where did you purchase the Miche 16t cog?

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by tw0leftskis View Post
    where did you purchase the Miche 16t cog?
    TreeFort, but Universal carries it also.
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    [QUOTE=budgie;10289525]TreeFort, but Universal carries it also.[/QUOTE

    THe 41t cog from MTB tools. He listed cog will work with sram or shimano flat or 5 arms spider. My SLX 10spd cassette is 6 arms. Will it fit/work?

    Placed order for 41t cog and miche 16t cog to replace the 13t and 17t cog.
    contacted Mtbtools, inquiring about fitment of the 41t to slx 10spd cassette with 6 arms spider. He said I might have to file the rivets on spider a bit for 41t to fit closer.
    We'll see if any interference. I will take pics and post the progression of the install.
    Last edited by tw0leftskis; 04-08-2013 at 07:10 AM.

  34. #34
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    Miche cogs work on Sram cassettes?

    Do the Miche cogs work on Sram cassettes also? Says Shimano but I'm wondering and haven't found the answer yet. Otherwise I need a second Sram cassette to swap some cogs around.

    I've got a PG1070 11-36 and want to do this conversion (post #41) Cheaper alternative to srams XX1 drivetrain.

    I've actually got the full XX1 system but the Hadley XX1 hub driver isn't available quite yet so I think the above link is a cool alternative.
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    I recieved my 41t cog. Weigh in at 233gm. I have shimano slx 11-36 cassette. RD is med cage shimano XT shadow plus. The cassette middle gear are held together by pins. I probably have to press the 3 pins out to removed the 15t and 17t cassette cogs. Miche 16t is on order from universal.

    Prefitment- I had to crank the b screw all the way in. It bottomed out. And when shifting from 36t to 41t the jockey wheel binds onto 41t cog. Bought some longer screws at hardware store. size M4x.7x25. to be continued.

    My bike is mojo sl.
    Last edited by tw0leftskis; 04-12-2013 at 09:21 PM.

  36. #36
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    follow up after couple more rides. still loving the setup. i noticed some rubbing, while shifted on 32 cog. when suspension compresses and chain shortens and pulls cage closer to 41 cog and 41 cog rubs inside of derailleur cage. i think this will be taken care of when i install 11-36 cassette that i should be getting next week. i also removed 1 of two spacers on drive side bottom bracket (xt) to help the chain line, i am also thinking to add washers between chain ring and crank spider to move it in even more.

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    Get longer screws M4x.70x25. Im still waiting for 16t. Cog to come in
    .

  38. #38
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    so i got my friend infected with this conversion too. he was on slx drivetrain 11-36x28. process for slx cassette is pretty similar to one described by budgie for xt, however there are some extra steps. first thing you will notice, slx has 6 arm carrier/spider for 3 largest cogs vs 5 arms on xt and mtbtools cog has only 5 support nuts. we found out there is alignment that works for slx cassette too. just rotate the mtbtools cog notch by notch and keep checking with cassette. you will know you have right alignment when all nuts on mtbtools cog have something to lean on against on slx cassette. you will also notice, in this alignment there is slight interference between nut on 41 cog and bolt on cassette and mtbtools cog doesnt lay flat (is not parallel with 36 cog). what we did was grinding part of the nut on mtbtools cog until there was no interference and it laid flat. next thing yo will need to take apart rest of the cassette. 5 cogs are held together by 3 pins. just pry smallest cog off , its pretty easy, and separate the rest. now at this point we realized we didnt have spare 16 cog that replaces 15 and 17 cogs. went to lbs and they let us go through their junk parts bin. we were able to find 11,12,14,16 cogs from 10 speed xt cassette. we took them all . next step, we assembled all the cogs on free hub body. when we tried to tighten everything with lock ring we realized that 11 cog is bottoming on free hub body not on the next cog. not sure why, if cog spacing on slx is slightly different than on xt (i didnt have this problem with my xt cassette). to aid this we used thicker ring spacer (thinner one was not enough) that came with 41 cog and install it first on the freehub. so that all the cogs sit on it. then we were able to properly tighten and secure cassette. hat to adjust limit screws a bit and of course b-screw all the way in. what we also tried was using 11 cog from xt cassette from lbs but somehow xt and slx are not compatible, the ramps dont match probably as it wouldnt shift form 11xt-13slx. then we used slx 11 cog and it was shifting no problem. so the last thing we did we replaced chain with longer one as his biggest combo before conversion was 36 28, now 41-32 and old chain didnt pass bottom out test. so there you go, slx version of Frankencog.

  39. #39
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    Wow, sounds like quite a process. Kudos for sticking with it.
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  40. #40
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    Trickle down AWOL

    So Sea Otter came & went, and I didn't hear a peep about 11spd trickle down, either from SRAM or Shimano. I'll admit I'm quite surprised. Maybe the manufacturing process on that giant cassette is hard to streamline: CNC or nothing?

    Anyone hear anything?

    Looks as if Frankencassette is going to have to last longer than planned...
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  41. #41
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    Well, several companies are releasing 11-speed thin/thick alternating 104mm bcd chainrings that will fit standard cranksets. So you can keep your crankset, but you will need to get XX1 chain, cassette, shifter, derailleur, and XD adapter (plus maybe a chainguide). I looked into doing it, but it would cost me over $700 with steep discounts (probably over $1000 at retail). Just so I can get rid of the front derailleur. Not worth $$$ right now for me.

  42. #42
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    budgie, are you not liking your Frankencassette? i have had quite a few rides on it now and doubt i would get genuine one if shimano was to release it now, unless something goes wrong with it. my buddy has had no problems either so far and likes it too. and btw, slx variant is really simple too, didnt mean to make it look like complicated process.

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    So When Is Shimano Going to Offer A 11 Speed MTB Drivetrain?

    Actually if you read carefully about the sea otter coverage of shimano 2014 xtr product line they mentioned brakes, rotors, and wheels but no mention of drive train. So who knows. My guess is shimano will do xtr only first year, and SRAM will come out with XO when they do. Similar what they did with the shadow plus derailer

  44. #44
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    For sure, I'm still digging the Funkenschift, but it definitely is far from crisp. Some of the shifts are pretty laggy, and I'm not holding my breath about its long-term durability. I'm psyched to have it as an option, and I definitely enjoyed the DIY R&D. But when affordable options come out, I'll be kicking it to the curb.

    My question is if this is so simple for a half-assed armchair engineer like myself, what's stopping shimano from coming out with a 11-42 10spd cassette? It's a bit of a mystery, no?
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  45. #45
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    So When Is Shimano Going to Offer A 11 Speed MTB Drivetrain?

    I'm guessing freehub durability could have something to do with it. Mate a 42R with a 22 or 24F and you have some serious torque.

    -D

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    Fair point, but the intention would be to use it as a 1x10 system, like xx1, with a 30t front or larger.

    (Just thinking about what one could climb with a 42rear, 22front... Tractor!)
    On heavy rotation: White Lung: Deep Fantasy

  47. #47
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    So When Is Shimano Going to Offer A 11 Speed MTB Drivetrain?

    Agreed, but Shimano needs to account for the knucklehead factor and anticipate warranty costs. They have had some freehub issues with certain models over the last few years, so they may be a bit gun shy.

    I know a guy that runs a limbo spider to get a 20-36 on 26" wheels, and he strikes me as the type who would see how low he could go with a monster cassette if the price were to come down.

    - D

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    I bit the bullet and just went 1x10. I adjusted quicker than I thought.

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cable0guy View Post
    Well, several companies are releasing 11-speed thin/thick alternating 104mm bcd chainrings that will fit standard cranksets. So you can keep your crankset, but you will need to get XX1 chain, cassette, shifter, derailleur, and XD adapter (plus maybe a chainguide). I looked into doing it, but it would cost me over $700 with steep discounts (probably over $1000 at retail). Just so I can get rid of the front derailleur. Not worth $$$ right now for me.
    Actually all you need is the cranks. You will not get the 42T cassette, but you can eliminate the chain guide. Works great with just a clutch RD and step toothed cassette.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diesel~ View Post
    I'm guessing freehub durability could have something to do with it. Mate a 42R with a 22 or 24F and you have some serious torque.

    -D
    Will not work. The XX1 RD cannot support a FD because it only moves in the horizontal plane. I think this is the issue that Shimano is running into and Sram might have a pantent on it. This is how they solved the problem of needing an XL RD cage.

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by hillharman View Post
    I bit the bullet and just went 1x10. I adjusted quicker than I thought.
    And there it is. Did it take more than 2 weeks to adjust?

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    yeah i dont know budgie, for what it is and how it is put together using parts from here and there it works pretty well. i guess shimano might have something in their sleeves in the end. 11-41 cassette would be nice since it apparently would work with their already released parts.

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    Hi,

    I also am trying the mtbtools 41 tooth cog with an XT 11-36. However, I can't get it to line up correctly with the back of the 36 tooth cog. One of the nuts they have installed for lateral support always seems to either interfere with either a pin on the back on the 36t or not contact the back of the 36t at all. This is causing the cog to bow when the rest of the cassette is assembled and tightened. Did you have this issue with your setup?

  54. #54
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    are you using it with xt or slx cassette? with slx there is only one correct position. with xt it doesnt matter. it is because spider is different on xt vs slx.

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    2015 preproduction

    So When Is Shimano Going to Offer A 11 Speed MTB Drivetrain?-1x11.jpg

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    Hmmm, it doesn't say anything about the rear cassette. And that doesn't look like a narrow/wide chainring. Need more info.

  57. #57
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    Rear cassette 11-40. Have not heard anything about N/W rings though since they probably view this as a patent infringement with Sram.

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salespunk View Post
    Rear cassette 11-40. Have not heard anything about N/W rings though since they probably view this as a patent infringement with Sram.
    I very much doubt that Shimano is worried about any infringement issues, since the original patent under the Gehl company has expired, and with minor design changes the tooth profile doesn't have to look the same. A few companies have licensed the exact SRAM design, but most (Wolf Tooth, e*thirteen, Pacenti, etc.) have gone there own way or use the expired Gehl patent

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