So my HD feels nervous on the steep stuff...
...I am currently waiting on my back ordered KS seat post dropper to help with this. But I am wondering if upping the travel on the front fork from 160mm fox air to a 180mm fox spring would fix the issue?
It should help the issue by slacking the head angle, and lengthening the wheelbase, but it also raises the bottom bracket.
If your fork steerer will permit, try using an angleset which will slacken head angle, lengthen wheelbase and lower the bottom bracket. This could be the better option of you don't need the longer travel in the fork.
You could also look at your cockpit setup. Sometimes running a shorter stem and wider bar can help on the steeps as well. If you are running a 90mm or 100 stem and narrow bar, it can make handling skittish compared to more "modern" all mountain setups.
I've slacked out my bike significantly, and I really like it thus far. Totally different bike though - a GT Sensor 29er. I removed a spacer in the fork to go from 120 to 140, which slackened the HA by about.8 degrees (measured on my digital level). This also raised the BB about .5 inches. I then installed Burgtech offset shock bushings which dropped the BB by .25 and slacked the bike another .5.
I lowered the bars and adjusted the seat so that my position on the bike is about the same. Contrary to what I expected, it seems to handle fine on the tight stuff. It feels a little better going fast, and it's definitely more secure on steep bumpy downs. Overall, I really like the way the bike handles now. I picked up a little flop in the steering, but I can live with that.
You might want to try a test run with the rear shock sagged more than normal, and the front sagged less than normal, just to see if you can live with the change. Try some switchbacks and steep climbs, as that is where the higher front-end may put you at a disadvantage.
You can also run the change through this geo calculator: geometryCalc
Wow, you learn something new every day.
Thanks for enlighting me to this new invention, the angleset.
It seems to be a great solution , judging by the google results of previous posts ( mtbr) on the subject.
My LbS says it should go on my bike without a hitch and I am upgrade to the stock headset it came with. Win win!
66 degrees seems to be a good angle for the HD and it won't raise the BB. Height like a taller fork would.
The other thing to consider is sag and low speed compression. Too much sag and / or not enough LSC will make the fork feel like it's diving. Check your sag and get that right first, 20-30% depending on riding style. After that, try adding a click or 2 of LSC.
What do you mean by nervous? does it feel twitchy? at speed? too responsive? I think in order to give you suggestions we need to know what equipment you have, stem length, handlebar width, wheels, tires, etc. Your riding background, preferences, how steep is steep for you, etc.
Don't make the mistake of going slack for the sake of it, 67 deg is more than enough for the HD's intended purpose if you attain the skills needed. Hell the faster the bike goes the better she feels.
The world needs a huge socio-economic change...be it. We all need to ride more....
Well, I can't really add low speed compression. My fork is a FIT( float 34,160). I do run it in the middle soft setting ,if that makes any sense.
As for the sag, that is set up right-ish( close 30%).
I think the biggest issue , for me, is that the Ibis is a little steeper in head angle and shorter in wheel base than my trusty old Ventana.
This angle adjust head set sounds like a great t
Thanks, I think I have the question answered but here goes.
Handle bar is all mountian size ( haven carbon? )
Wheels: the ones that came with the bike .
Tires are 2.35, big knobs.
The nervousness only happens on the steep sections.
Feels like my weight is too far forward. To remedy this I need to lean way back off the rear of the bike . My old bike never had this twitchyness to it.
By installing the angle set, I can lengthen and slacken the head tube to match the comfortable feeling that my old bike had . I think one degree and and a half inch to an inch in wheelbase willmatch my old bike.
Your old bike may have put your bars a little taller, the integrated HS lowers things a reasonable amount.
I runn a touch more sage so the bike sits in its travel a bit more. I run a Roco TST air
You may want to consider a shorter stem. 80mm seems a bit longer for a bike that will have a 66 degree HA once the angelset is installed.
There seem to be some great suggestions in here, and your headed in the right direction with the angleset.
Originally Posted by saidrick
Id also try putting a shim from the fox shim kits in your shock. I'm assuming that you have the fox. If you put the large shim in it should allow you to run a bit more sag (hopefully without bottoming out) which would help significantly.
All of this stuff will help remedy that pushing you forward over the bars feeling in the steeps. In my opinion, the HD will still feel a lot more nervous on steep nasty DH tracks at speed compared to most 6" rigs out there. There is so much anti squat built into the design that you get that weight over the front feeling all the time. The trade off is that the HD pedals better than almost any 6" bike available, and its really, really precise so you can make super quick direction changes to pick your lines. When I made the switch from an SC Nomad that I was on for a few seasons, I sort of had to learn how to ride the HD. That is, the technique I used on the Nomad did not work on the HD for really Chunky, DH tracks. Once you get the feel for the frame and change how you ride a bit you will feel fine. Good Luck!
i changed my nomad 1 to a hd four months ago and i think exatly the same , i needed several days to adapt at the new ride , at the moment i' m very happy whith my purchase but next spring i will get an angleset ,ithink is the way to find a more stable ride. Some friends here in spain go with it and they say that the bike is a lot better.
Originally Posted by elsinore
u're going to slow buddy. let go of the brakes and rip that "steep" section.
Sounds to me like you are running way too much sag in the fork. 30% is a lot especially with the way that Fox forks like to dive. Try upping the pressure in the fork to around 20% sag.
Also remember that the HD was designed around the 36/Lyrik with a 545mm A2C height. If I am not mistaken the 34 is around 535mm which would put your HA at 68 instead of 67.
Wow, thanks for all the advice.
I think that the shim kit for the shock would also be a good idea.
Sales punk, your answer about the fork length would explain a lot of what I am feeling. The angleset seems to address this pretty well.
As for the sag. As a 200lb rider my front fork seems to work really well with 85lb in it.
My rear is a 185lb. The only time my bike dives is off of drops and jumps, which is when it should , right?
As for going too slow. On tight, twisty, rocky single track, I am not sure how you speed up without flying off the trail. Which I done many a time, I call it coming in to a corner too hot.
Again, I can ride the steeps, but I feels like I have exaggerate moving my weight rearward.
I am curious what Hans or Scot think about the angleset?
But thanks again for the helpful tips.
Angleset + 50mm Stem FTW!
Yep Sales punk is correct. The fox 34 fork is shorter (7.5mm-ish) than the 36. The angleset is the cheapest solution to a problem caused largely by Fox.
Can't wait to have my mojo with the correct 67 degree head angle.
Thanks for the help.
Your issues sound more like being a problem with how the bike is setup. Like others have said, an 80mm stem is a bit long with this type of bike. Most are running 50-70mm stems on the HD's. I run a 50mm stem on mine with wide 31" bars. The short fox 34 is not helping you either, since it's effectively making the head angle steeper than it would be with a fox 36 @ 160mm.
A good way to set up the HD is with 30-33% sag in the rear and 20% sag on the fork. Try messing around with settings to get a balanced feel front and rear. Don't worry so much about trying to run a certain psi in the fork - shock and go more by sag. To much sag will cause fork to dive deep into travel on steep sections and if it doesn't have enough sag the fork won't track very well and feel like it's skipping bouncing off rocks instead of absorbing the terrain.
It can take a while to adjust to a new bike, just give it some time and mess with the setup to get it feeling good to you. The hd is a great bike.
The stem shouldn't be the issue. The reasoning behind this is that my old bike never had this issue and it had a 90mm stem. Plus, the new handlebars are wider than the old bars, so that shouldn't be an issue either.
I run the stem that long because I have long arms, so a large Frame size and a medium stem length make for a comfortable up and down bike.
As for the sag. Numbers. I tried various psi combinations on the ride route before deciding on those numbers.
Now, if I get the angle set, seat dropper, installed AND I am still having problems then I will try out a 70mm stem.
I am running a 90 mm stem and have no problems riding the steeps such as Telonics and the like. People are fascinated with short stems, but it is all what you are comfortable on.
I would not discount the short stem thing right away. The reason people are fascinated with short stems is because they work, really well in fact for aggressive descending. There is not a modern DH bike out there with a stem longer than 50mm.
Originally Posted by Salespunk
Sadrick, just because your old bike handled well with a longer stem, does not mean the HD will; especially if you widened the bars a bit. The short stems are a compromise in terms of trading off a bit of climb-ability in the sense that you don't have as much weight way over the front of your bike on steep ups, but its not really that hard to get used to. The payoff in terms of descending, in my opinion is HUGE. If you ride modern trails with Berms, you will notice the difference even more. The bike will be more agile and you can really jam it in and out of turns harder. In short, it is less nervous, which I think is what you are looking for. Id seriously try a 70mm and give it a good 5- 10 rides and some time to change your technique a bit because it will not feel great at first if you try to ride it like your old rig.
Stems these days are not all about sizing, maybe on road bikes but the HD is a 6" travel machine designed to do it all. I'm 5'11" with a wingspan of 6'2" and run a 50mm stem on a large frame. Having said that I used to run a 90mm stem 8 years ago but have gradually shorted my trail bike setup over the years. I really think an angleset and a 90mm stem sound like a bad idea, but again that is just my opinion.
No offense meant Salespunk but a 90mm stem on the HD just makes me nauseous
Thanks Voob. The video featured one of my mountain biking idols: Richard Cunningham.
The FSA seems to be a good option ( pun intended ) but seems to also require a very detail oriented install like the Canecreek.
So I follow Occam's Razor: the simplest solution is usually the most correct one.
With that in mind, it seems that if my bike is Not feeling great on the super steep stuff because of a non- designed steeper head angle. Then it follows that the solution should be to remedy the change in geometry before doing anything else.
This gives me two options:
1. Is to replace the fork with a longer a2c or more travel. This would cost around a grand.
Option 2. Change the head angle with an adjustable head set. This would cost about 200 bucks
As for my old bike: I bought the mojo HD because it seemed very similar but better in every way. So far the mojo is better , except for this little issue that I hope to resolve very soon.
For reference : my old bike was a Ventana El Chamuco.
Thanks again for the insights.