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  1. #1
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    Question on bike feel with a longer AtoC if I change my fork?

    Question for those who have ridden both the Fox 36 (I have a Van RC2) vs. the X-Fusion Vengeance (I'm looking at getting the coil).

    The AtoC on the Fox is 545mm, the AtoC on the X-Fusion Vengeance is 565mm. I know this will happen:

    • HA slackens about a degree
    • BB height goes up about 4mm.


    I know what that does on the Ventana as far as feel, but has anyone here gone from one to the other? The X-fusion is pretty nice because it's already a 20mm TA and it's got support for 650B in case I decide to do a B6er.

    I'm not looking at any other fork. I like the 160-170mm travel range, coil, and 20mm TA.

    Thoughts on anyone who's ridden both?
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  2. #2
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    Haven't ridden those exact forks, but went from a Lyrik 170 to Vengeance 170 which had a 10mm longer A2C. I hated it. The bike felt sluggish and steering felt flip-floppy. I had to reduce travel to 155-160 (A2C of 550-555) for it to feel right again. I mostly run a Slant now (due to weight and shorter A2C) with an A2C of 545 and love it with the tighter handling and quicker steering. I wish the Vengeance had a 10mm shorter A2C, for me that's the only flaw with the fork.
    If the travel adjust on the Vengeance coil version is like the air version, then you can do it in a few minutes once you figure it out.
    Those who know, ride a Mojo AND a Mojo HD.
    Quadzilla
    Quote Originally Posted by benja55
    Ok, whatever, cold water on my bike boner right there.

  3. #3
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    Rode the HD with a 36 Float 160, 36 TALAS 180, and a 34 Float 160.

    Liked the bike the best with the 34 Float 160 and the TALAS in the 140 Mode. Only time I liked the longer travel was on the descents.

    If you're riding the bike mostly downhill and not too concerned about XC performance than it really feels good with the longer fork. Keep in mind that you need a good rear shock to keep up; the Float doesn't perform as well.

    The 180 TALAS is brilliant for having the best of both worlds.

  4. #4
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    Thanks guys I'll stick with my Fox 36. I really dig the geo on the bike, and this confirms that it might be a bit too much on the AtoC for me.
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stripes View Post
    Thanks guys I'll stick with my Fox 36. I really dig the geo on the bike, and this confirms that it might be a bit too much on the AtoC for me.
    Stripes, just for some balance, if you are running a Fox 36 @ 160mm?comparing a2cs with a fork set at 170mm is not comparing at all and this does not help give you an informed decision, many of us run our XF Vs @ 160 this is not just about a2c, superior dampening quality is massive difference, personally for me the 36 does not come close to this fork, the a2c at 160 is bang on, mine measures, I just did it, @545 a2c.

    But if you like your 36 unwilling to risk something new then for sure stick with it.

    I would also seriously consider the HLR air over the coil, if possible get a ride on either to compare, I think you would be very surprised how good, smooth, adjustable the air version and quality feel compared to your coil 36.

    I ride mine everywhere, allot of back country, a2c is important, just saying, in fact for serious climbing tires are more important to maintain traction, I out climbed a group recently, one dude on a 120 29er, too other guys on Talas forks while climbing over 1400m a few weeks back, I have no adj on shock or fork the more tech it became the more I rode while they got off and pushed.

    Another climbing benefit compared to Fox is they pogo even when you use CTD especially the float shock, when you try one back to back Fox vs XF, its very clear, recently had to do this with a shock and even on full climb mode on a fire rode I could feel loss of energy through the compression circuit trying to control the rebound, or this is how it felt and again was never that obvious to me until I had to use my Fox spare in the rear for a week.

    Same with the fork, because they only use the travel needed and superior damper, the fork shock while riding does its job but seems not to bounce all over the place, energy allows you to pedal forward and maintain control I have noticed this allot on climbs, I still use a short stem.

    So before writing this off, compare a2c for the travel you want to what you have, then if you can get a test ride on someones of possible.

    Or just stick with the 36 play it safe.

  6. #6
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    Over a year ago, I swapped from a Rockshox Lyrik U-turn (Coil) 160mm with I believe an A2C of 545mm to a Vengeance HLR (Air) 160mm with an A2C 555mm. The increased A2C does affect low speed climbing as the bike does tend to wander a bit. Personally, it is worth the "sacrifice" as the Vengeance HLR Air performs beautifully while descending. I do not feel like the bike handles floppy while descending or that the increase in bottom bracket height negatively effects the bike handling. I know you are looking at the Coil Vengeance in specific, but like Mav, I wholeheartedly endorse the HLR Air. It's a quality fork with great user tune-ability IMHO.

  7. #7
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    I concur with Mav. The XF Air HLR is a better fork all round than both the air 36 and Van RC2 unless you have tweaked it or custom valved it.
    I Run mine at 160 - actually they are 155 on the bike. Geo is good. Damping is excellent and they sit up in their travel nicely

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by nzl62 View Post
    I concur with Mav. The XF Air HLR is a better fork all round than both the air 36 and Van RC2 unless you have tweaked it or custom valved it.
    I Run mine at 160 - actually they are 155 on the bike. Geo is good. Damping is excellent and they sit up in their travel nicely
    Correction yours is 155, mine is definitely 160, Im not sure what year Forks models others are measuring a2c wise, but my a2c is 545 from axle to crown so Im not sure where people are measuring from and thats from the bottom of the axle when it should be from the center to the top of the crown.

    Compared to a Fox 34 I had on here previous this climbs way better and that had a significant lower a2c.

    Id add that this could be a result of balance between front and rear shocks as I also have XF on the rear, not once do I feel like the need to add compression for climbing, I run 2 clicks of lsc and leave it, yet with the float ctd (pos) and I recently spent the day on a Float X, I felt the need to adjust compression for climbing, yes dwl bike, in the Float Xs case on the M6 while not as good as the Vector on the HD, the middle setting was best for climbing for me to help control the shock, full climb mode the bike felt very dead, slow, choked, weird.

    For trail suspension it just seems me and Fox don't get along.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick005 View Post
    Stripes, just for some balance, if you are running a Fox 36 @ 160mm?comparing a2cs with a fork set at 170mm is not comparing at all and this does not help give you an informed decision, many of us run our XF Vs @ 160 this is not just about a2c, superior dampening quality is massive difference, personally for me the 36 does not come close to this fork, the a2c at 160 is bang on, mine measures, I just did it, @545 a2c.

    But if you like your 36 unwilling to risk something new then for sure stick with it.

    I would also seriously consider the HLR air over the coil, if possible get a ride on either to compare, I think you would be very surprised how good, smooth, adjustable the air version and quality feel compared to your coil 36.

    I ride mine everywhere, allot of back country, a2c is important, just saying, in fact for serious climbing tires are more important to maintain traction, I out climbed a group recently, one dude on a 120 29er, too other guys on Talas forks while climbing over 1400m a few weeks back, I have no adj on shock or fork the more tech it became the more I rode while they got off and pushed.

    Another climbing benefit compared to Fox is they pogo even when you use CTD especially the float shock, when you try one back to back Fox vs XF, its very clear, recently had to do this with a shock and even on full climb mode on a fire rode I could feel loss of energy through the compression circuit trying to control the rebound, or this is how it felt and again was never that obvious to me until I had to use my Fox spare in the rear for a week.

    Same with the fork, because they only use the travel needed and superior damper, the fork shock while riding does its job but seems not to bounce all over the place, energy allows you to pedal forward and maintain control I have noticed this allot on climbs, I still use a short stem.

    So before writing this off, compare a2c for the travel you want to what you have, then if you can get a test ride on someones of possible.

    Or just stick with the 36 play it safe.
    Heya Mav! Thanks for popping up

    I wouldn't be asking if I was happy with my fork Honestly, I'm not happy with Fox at all--after charging $150 to fix a freaking 2 year old CTD that seems to be poorly manufactured, like all their CTDs. I sent in mine (no cost to me) for my Mojo HD as a backup shock, and it turns out the Boost Valve was all messed up.

    I'm not completely sold on the 36 to be honest, as I'm really tired of adding useless low speed compression to the fork and the damn thing still bobs uphill. Grrr. I've got a lot more weight over the front since my reduction surgery 6 months ago, and the fork needs to not dive on me, and the compression (or lack of) on the Fox forks is starting to scare me.

    I'm definitley open to the air fork, it doesn't have to be the coil. Heard good things about the Vengeance air.

    So I'm definitely game for checking out the Vengeance and running it at 160mm, especially if the AtoC is just a few mm off. The problem I run into is the documentation on the X-Fusion website:
    170mm AtoC 565mm

    The other problem is the AtoC meassurement isn't listed on the geo for the Mojo HD . It just says with a 160mm fork and with a 180mm fork. And we all know that all forks do not have equal AtoCs.

    So a 160mm at 555mm is totally good. I'm fine with anything around 545mm~555mm as a 1/2 slacker and a 3mm BB height raise shouldn't feel too bad on a bike that's also designed to ride 180mm.

    What it's lacking is the internal travel adjust spacing for the HLR. I don't want to bring down the fork more than 160mm, and I would be willing to check it out even at 170mm.

    My other option is the RS Lyrik, but in all honesty, it's nice to have the 650B option with the X-Fusion.
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  10. #10
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    Anne, I have both a lyrik coil RC2DH@ 170 and the vengeance hlr air @ 160(I think) sitting in my garage if you want to try them. The A2c on the vengeance at 170 is 565. I've measured it countless times. The lyrik I have done some custom tuning on, so it won't feel exactly like a new one will. To me it feels better.
    You'll need a butt load of spacers for my longer steer tubes.
    Those who know, ride a Mojo AND a Mojo HD.
    Quadzilla
    Quote Originally Posted by benja55
    Ok, whatever, cold water on my bike boner right there.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by d-bug View Post
    Anne, I have both a lyrik coil RC2DH@ 170 and the vengeance hlr air @ 160(I think) sitting in my garage if you want to try them. The A2c on the vengeance at 170 is 565. I've measured it countless times. The lyrik I have done some custom tuning on, so it won't feel exactly like a new one will. To me it feels better.
    You'll need a butt load of spacers for my longer steer tubes.
    Wow.. that's an awesome offer. Thanks!

    It sounds like it's worth a try, depending on how long the steerer tube is so I don't impale myself
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stripes View Post
    Heya Mav! Thanks for popping up

    I wouldn't be asking if I was happy with my fork Honestly, I'm not happy with Fox at all--after charging $150 to fix a freaking 2 year old CTD that seems to be poorly manufactured, like all their CTDs. I sent in mine (no cost to me) for my Mojo HD as a backup shock, and it turns out the Boost Valve was all messed up.

    I'm not completely sold on the 36 to be honest, as I'm really tired of adding useless low speed compression to the fork and the damn thing still bobs uphill. Grrr. I've got a lot more weight over the front since my reduction surgery 6 months ago, and the fork needs to not dive on me, and the compression (or lack of) on the Fox forks is starting to scare me.

    I'm definitley open to the air fork, it doesn't have to be the coil. Heard good things about the Vengeance air.

    So I'm definitely game for checking out the Vengeance and running it at 160mm, especially if the AtoC is just a few mm off. The problem I run into is the documentation on the X-Fusion website:
    170mm AtoC 565mm

    The other problem is the AtoC meassurement isn't listed on the geo for the Mojo HD . It just says with a 160mm fork and with a 180mm fork. And we all know that all forks do not have equal AtoCs.

    So a 160mm at 555mm is totally good. I'm fine with anything around 545mm~555mm as a 1/2 slacker and a 3mm BB height raise shouldn't feel too bad on a bike that's also designed to ride 180mm.

    What it's lacking is the internal travel adjust spacing for the HLR. I don't want to bring down the fork more than 160mm, and I would be willing to check it out even at 170mm.


    My other option is the RS Lyrik, but in all honesty, it's nice to have the 650B option with the X-Fusion.

    No probs, just want to see get your bike dialled with what ever fork or setup suits you best, The Vengeance may not be the best for everyone, I think its a performance fork but thats not to say you wont like it either!

    Im just confused where you and some others are getting your info, the HLR Vengeance has the ITA (internal travel adjust) pin internal adjustment and for even further fine tuning, internal adjustment spacers can be used.

    Why Id say NZL62 has 155mm, someone either used the incorrect spacer or it was adj that way to keep the a2c lower for what he wanted.

    So internal adj is no issue for an LBS who knows what they are doing or for XF to set it where you need it.

    dbug great you can let Stripes test both.

    I doubt you will notice 10mm this fork rides high so you can run a little more sag, forget the a2c measurement for 170mm its irrelevant you only need this fork at 160 max.

    Do not set it up like a Fox, you must unlearn what you have learned with the Fox, this is how a proper damper should work, start at 8 clicks from full slow and try one click either way at a time, one click of adj makes allot of difference, you shouldn't need any HSC and maybe 1-3 clicks of LSC if running correct sag, start at 25-30% no more no less

    key to this fork is sag, it does not need allot of compression adj or rebound if set correct, Ive tested at both extremes to prove this, just follow sag, then rebound before adj anything else and you will be sweet, it provides best all round performance which is awesome.

    dbug will be able to sort you out though, be interested to see how you find it, enjoy.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick005 View Post
    I ride mine everywhere, allot of back country, a2c is important, just saying, in fact for serious climbing tires are more important to maintain traction, I out climbed a group recently, one dude on a 120 29er, too other guys on Talas forks while climbing over 1400m a few weeks back, I have no adj on shock or fork the more tech it became the more I rode while they got off and pushed.
    +1 - I've had the same experience with a slack bike. You adjust to the different geo given a bit of time.
    Safe riding,

    Vik
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by d-bug View Post
    Anne, I have both a lyrik coil RC2DH@ 170 and the vengeance hlr air @ 160(I think) sitting in my garage if you want to try them. The A2c on the vengeance at 170 is 565. I've measured it countless times. The lyrik I have done some custom tuning on, so it won't feel exactly like a new one will. To me it feels better.
    You'll need a butt load of spacers for my longer steer tubes.
    So Dan, being one of the most awesome people in the planet, has loaned me his fork.

    After installing the fork and about 2 inches of spacers (hopefully I won't stab myself ), it's ready to go

    Once my ankle is much better, I'm gonna get the sag set.

    interesting things we noticed. Dan's Vengeance is set to 160mm. The Fox 36 Van is 160mm. Both AtoC is 555mm. So the overall geo will not change, but that means running it at 170mm would prolly be fine too.

    I'm really thankful to know such cool people. Once I get a couple of rides on it, I'll post my feedback here.
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  15. #15
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    And now I have a mostly empty box of chocolates
    Those who know, ride a Mojo AND a Mojo HD.
    Quadzilla
    Quote Originally Posted by benja55
    Ok, whatever, cold water on my bike boner right there.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by d-bug View Post
    And now I have a mostly empty box of chocolates
    Did you get to eat any?
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stripes View Post
    Did you get to eat any?
    I've eaten 100% more than she has
    Those who know, ride a Mojo AND a Mojo HD.
    Quadzilla
    Quote Originally Posted by benja55
    Ok, whatever, cold water on my bike boner right there.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stripes View Post
    So Dan, being one of the most awesome people in the planet, has loaned me his fork.

    After installing the fork and about 2 inches of spacers (hopefully I won't stab myself ), it's ready to go

    Once my ankle is much better, I'm gonna get the sag set.

    interesting things we noticed. Dan's Vengeance is set to 160mm. The Fox 36 Van is 160mm. Both AtoC is 555mm. So the overall geo will not change, but that means running it at 170mm would prolly be fine too.

    I'm really thankful to know such cool people. Once I get a couple of rides on it, I'll post my feedback here.
    Hi Stripes, hows the testing going has your ankle allowed you to get out they're yet and be converted

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick005 View Post
    Hi Stripes, hows the testing going has your ankle allowed you to get out they're yet and be converted
    No My ankle makes me sad. I can't get out to ride yet, still working on the walking part. Started PT, but overdid it yesterday by going to the office. None of that for a while.

    I'll let you know. I'm looking forward to it.. being on rest sucks
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stripes View Post
    No My ankle makes me sad. I can't get out to ride yet, still working on the walking part. Started PT, but overdid it yesterday by going to the office. None of that for a while.

    I'll let you know. I'm looking forward to it.. being on rest sucks
    Ahh dam, hope u heal up quick, but dont over do it.

    All the best Stripes.

  21. #21
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    As a self confessed perpetual fiddler I have my HD with the Vengeance at 170 with a -1degree works headset
    I have had one ride on it and it did everything you can expect- harder climbs but faster downs.
    I hadn't intended for the Vengeance to be at 170 but there seems to be a pretty big knowledge gap between local distributor, the bike shop and what XF actually state on their website. It takes a spacer (thanks Mav) in addition to the pin ladder to get 160.
    Anyhow I will run my HD "chopper" for a few more rides and see what Strava tells me

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stripes View Post
    No My ankle makes me sad. I can't get out to ride yet, still working on the walking part. Started PT, but overdid it yesterday by going to the office. None of that for a while.

    I'll let you know. I'm looking forward to it.. being on rest sucks
    In case you haven't seen this Stripes we bit of inspiration for ya.


  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by nzl62 View Post
    As a self confessed perpetual fiddler I have my HD with the Vengeance at 170 with a -1degree works headset
    I have had one ride on it and it did everything you can expect- harder climbs but faster downs.
    I hadn't intended for the Vengeance to be at 170 but there seems to be a pretty big knowledge gap between local distributor, the bike shop and what XF actually state on their website. It takes a spacer (thanks Mav) in addition to the pin ladder to get 160.
    Anyhow I will run my HD "chopper" for a few more rides and see what Strava tells me
    You're welcome young padawan!
    Now stop fiddling, ya know what they say about fiddlers lol

    Direct from XFusions site in case anyone else is confused or gets mislead by accident.

    Internal travel adjust is offered within all of our forks using a push-pin ladder system on the air-spring rod. Travel spacers can be used in some cases for even more custom travel settings.

    under heading specifications
    Travel: 170mm, 150mm, 100mm w/ ITA (Other travel options using air rod spacers)

    To be fair to nzl62 my fork came directly from the importer set to my specifications as did my shock, nothing was done at the LBS other than them being a go between for delivery!

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick005 View Post


    In case you haven't seen this Stripes we bit of inspiration for ya.


    Aww, thanks Mav <3 That vid was definitely full of awesomesauce.

    I'm hoping I can get back on, even an easy ride end of this week. I should have an idea of at least how it does on the flats if I can push myself off the saddle and get out of it a bit just to see how it handles.
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  25. #25
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    Well, that didn't last long.

    The LBS had a take-off Vengeance air (from a Special Blend HD) for a steal, so I put that on instead and will have to give Dan back his fork now It's an RC, so it's only small amount to upgrade to an HLR.

    It turns out the AtoC on the Fox 36 is 555mm, the same as the AtoC of the Vengeance lowered to 160mm. So I figured I'll start with the fork at 170mm and see what I think.

    I'm not sure if it's the lack of quality with the recent Fox stuff, but the Monarch Plus and the Vengeance appear to be nicely mated on this bike. This bike definitely makes you feel when you have a crappy component on it.

    The Vengeance I got is a 170mm, which is fine for trying out anyway, since I tend to like my bikes a bit more choppered out. If my math is correct, it slackens the HA to 66.5 (1/2 degree) and raises the BB 4mm. Both are fine for me, and I'm wondering if the only thing I'll be playing with initially is the LSC. I need to keep the fork from bobbing on climbs.

    That's a ways away anyway.. still gotta wait for my leg to heal. Right now, the settings are 6 clicks of rebound (can't remember which direction) and 1 click of LSC.

    I'll post picks and give feedback after my ride.
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