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  1. #1
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    Mojo or Pivot???

    I need a new ride (just sold my 07 Stumpy).

    Trying to narrow down my choices.

    I ride XC trails only (Texas...) with some racing. I am lightweight (150 lbs, 5'10").

    I was first considering an Epic (lots of deals around), but a lot of people are recommending me some of the newer designs, including the stores that sell Epics.

    Any of you compared or considered the Mojo and the Pivot?

    I saw the Pivot today and rode it around the store on a very short trail. Felt very good. I am seriously considering it. But it is very new and very few reviews.

  2. #2
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    I test rode the Pivot at Interbike and did not think much of it. Not to much cushion when it came to hitting bumps and such, just a bit of a harsh ride. I was also not a fan of the bikes geometry. I liked the Iron Horse MKIII much much better, but the Mojo is just a bit sweeter then the MKIII, they do both have the same ride characteristics. I am very familiar with the Epic having had one before. The Brain technology just doesn't work as well as I would have liked. Its not a bad race bike but not the best trail riding bike around. You'll enjoy the Mojo much more, especially when you get it on some tougher and nastier terrain.

  3. #3
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    You can't go wrong with a Mojo

    I highly recommend that you also test ride the Mojo!!! Find a dealer and get a demo. You could keep it for several days so you could ride the trails that you’re familiar with. You’re going to drop a pretty penny so make sure you get the bike that suits you best. I don’t have any first hand experience with Pivot but I know they have a DW link.

    The Mojo is in my opinion the best bike out there!!! It is very responsive and plush, the geometry on this bike is awesome. When you’re on the Mojo you get a great sense of control, whether your railing a corner, on the climbs or downhill’s you feel like a pro. Like any other bike it is very important to set up the suspension correctly. The Mojo handles like a champ on the trail and looks super sexy!!! You get exotic materials like Ultra High Modulus Carbon Fiber and a DW Link. You could build it very light in the low 20 ish LBS or build an All Mountain monster in the 27 ish LBS range. I hope this helps!!!!!

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by pastajet
    I test rode the Pivot at Interbike and did not think much of it. Not to much cushion when it came to hitting bumps and such, just a bit of a harsh ride. I was also not a fan of the bikes geometry. I liked the Iron Horse MKIII much much better, but the Mojo is just a bit sweeter then the MKIII, they do both have the same ride characteristics. I am very familiar with the Epic having had one before. The Brain technology just doesn't work as well as I would have liked. Its not a bad race bike but not the best trail riding bike around. You'll enjoy the Mojo much more, especially when you get it on some tougher and nastier terrain.
    I'm not going to try to sway anyone one way or the other, that would be sort of like a parent trying to tell someone which of their children they liked best, but I feel that I need to point out that the Pivot bikes at Interbike had rear shock tunes that were pretty far from optimal, and have been improved greatly since then. They Pivot production bikes will ride with much more compliance than the Interbike models.
    Last edited by _dw; 02-15-2008 at 07:01 AM.
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by _dw
    I'm not going to try to sway anyone one way or the other, that would be sort of like a parent trying to tell someone which of their children they liked best, but I feel that I need to point out that the Pivot bikes at Interbike had rear shock tunes that were pretty far from optimal, and have been improved greatly since then. They Pivot production bikes will ride with much more compliance than the Interbike models.

    Dave,
    We just got our first Pivot frames into the shop and they are very sweet indeed. Love the pressed in BB and Carbon upper link.
    Great work as usual.

    Greg
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  6. #6
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    There is no official Mojo demo available in Texas

    I will go to my local Ibis dealer and see if I can at least try in the parking lot.

    They also have Titus which I have yet to try.

    Thanks!

  7. #7
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    flafonta, not counting _dw's and my comment, it is unlikely you will get unbiased advice asking that kind of question on the Ibis forum especially since there is no Pivot forum to even things out.

    I think the Mojo is one sexy bike and owners have nothing but praise for it, but if XC is your thing and you are contemplating racing, there are likely other more suitable bikes out there for you. I have not ridden a Pivot so I can neither recommend it nor trash it, but I know they offer a couple of different bikes, one of which is geared more towards your stated purpose.

    Try not to "narrow down [your] choices" based on other's opinions ... you must get out there and ride ... then make your choice from among the bikes you actually get to experience yourself.

  8. #8
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    MacGiv'er (and others), thanks for the advice.

    My problem is that it is very hard to find a store that has or that would let you try these Boutique brand bikes.

    The Pivot dealer said "just buy one and you have 10 days to exchange it if you do not like it".

    I will be heading to the Ibis dealer tomorrow morning (they also sell Titus & Intense).

    But they already told me on the phone that they do not have any demo bikes. They might let me try an already sold bike in the parking lot, but they need to ask the owner.

    And of course, both dealers claim their bike is the better choice.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by flafonta
    ...
    My problem is that it is very hard to find a store that has or that would let you try these Boutique brand bikes.
    And also ... try not to "narrow down [your] choices" to boutique brands only.

    Boutique brand does not necessarily translate to a better bike ... but on average they tend to have better customer service.

  10. #10
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    Hmmmm...Yes the demo ride does help. I got my Mojo cause it looked cool ( I love carbon) and the magazines had early ravings about it, but there were no tests bike anywhere in the world to try at the time. So I bought it blind. I take all opinions (even mine) with a grain of salt, you need to sift between all the chatter and decipher some half truths. But it does help. Yea, sometimes blind dates work fine, maybe yea marry them, but then again if a bunch of your friends rave about this one person wouldn't you be more willing to try it? And the opposite is true, would you date them if they didn't think much of them? Of course neither may true and it could be the perfect person for yah, who knows? So yes go on the date if you can with the bike! I am unsure how anyone cannot be biased on anything? It comes with the territory. I rode a ton on bikes at Interbike and I am sorry if Pivot did not have their shocks optimal. I can only state how I felt the bike rode, nothing more and nothing less. My fave bike at the show was not the Mojo which I also happen to own it was a Moots Mooto-XZ 29er.

    _dw must remain neutral since they are his kids. I try an voice an honest and harsh voice as is required. I love my Mojo, I still love my ancient Ultimate Epic (carbon tubes and Ti lugs), I loved my old Epic but I grew weary of her, I was turned off by the Pivot, I liked the Iron Horse, the Trek Fuels irritated me, the Rocky Mtn's and the Santa Cruz's were good comfortable friends and I had a big crush on the Moots. That perhaps was a better way to state my views on the bikes.

    I can be a critic of the Mojo. Its a bit sloppy at high speed motoring through rock fields and heavy terrain, the geometry makes the front end dive to much and it leaves a bit to be desired at riding up tough ledgy terrain and sand makes it very squirmy. And no matter what she does scratch and chip easier then most bikes, fancy rubber paint or not.

    The best bike I have ever owned is the Ultimate Epic bar none, followed by the Mojo. I have the Moots Mooto-XZ on my wish list so it might be taking a sort of twin brother seat next to the Mojo.

    So sue me if I have a biased option, who doesn't!

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by pastajet
    I can be a critic of the Mojo. Its a bit sloppy at high speed motoring through rock fields and heavy terrain, the geometry makes the front end dive to much and it leaves a bit to be desired at riding up tough ledgy terrain and sand makes it very squirmy. And no matter what she does scratch and chip easier then most bikes, fancy rubber paint or not.
    Interesting and surprising critique. I get no front end dive with my 150mm fork and haven't heard others say this so I'm guessing you are wrong that the "geometry makes the front end dive". It's likely more to do with your set up. I also see nothing to be "desired" on "ledgy terrain" or in sand. Lastly, my Mojo does not scratch or chip easier than other bikes, at least not with 8mil tape on the areas that get hit most. Anyway, that's what comes to mind reading your impressions.

    "I must not be crazy because I'm seriously questioning my sanity"

  12. #12
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    Ok, perhaps everyone needs to take a deep breathe and honestly evaluate the Mojo, I dearly love mine but it ain't perfect, nothing is.

    In regards to scratching and chipping, try it someplace that the tape doesn't exist, it just scratches a bit worse them most bikes, again its a comparison against other bikes.

    I ride sand all the time in Colorado (sand and pea gravel is my typical terrain, rarely have packed dirt) and I am comparing it against other bikes I have ridden and it does feel a bit squirmy.

    In regards to front end dive, this would be with my Fox RL140 set up the way it works best for me in my terrain. I think its a combination of the RL140, the way I ride, my setup, my terrain and the bike geometry, mostly the head angle in relation to the bottom bracket position. I do like a long stem so it does put me a bit forward and does exasperates the issue. But it does happen, its not a glaring one, just an issue. I can easily change my body english and take care of it.

    In regards to going up ledgy rock terrain that I frequent when I compare it against some other bikes that I have ridden the same terrain it just gets a bit out of sync and does not stay as calm. I have to pay a bit more attention to the line that I am riding. Notice I was very specific in the terrain "tough ledgy terrain" Moab is bit smoother and the Mojo does fine. Pueblo South Shore where I ride on some of the ups (which most people don't even ride) it just doesn't ride the way I feel a bike of this caliber should ride and especially in comparison to itself on other steep ugly terrain where it is a demon.



    Perhaps what everyone needs to do is pretend you are a reviewer for a magazine or the forum (which I am) and evaluate the Mojo, use the following criteria and be brutal and honest.

    Strengths:
    Weaknesses:
    Bottom Line:

    Value Rating:
    Overall Rating.

    She is a lovely creature but she is not perfect. Give it a try...

    Peace.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  13. #13
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    Great Post!

    Quote Originally Posted by pastajet
    Ok, perhaps everyone needs to take a deep breathe and honestly evaluate the Mojo, I dearly love mine but it ain't perfect, nothing is.

    In regards to scratching and chipping, try it someplace that the tape doesn't exist, it just scratches a bit worse them most bikes, again its a comparison against other bikes.

    I ride sand all the time in Colorado (sand and pea gravel is my typical terrain, rarely have packed dirt) and I am comparing it against other bikes I have ridden and it does feel a bit squirmy.

    In regards to front end dive, this would be with my Fox RL140 set up the way it works best for me in my terrain. I think its a combination of the RL140, the way I ride, my setup, my terrain and the bike geometry, mostly the head angle in relation to the bottom bracket position. I do like a long stem so it does put me a bit forward and does exasperates the issue. But it does happen, its not a glaring one, just an issue. I can easily change my body english and take care of it.

    In regards to going up ledgy rock terrain that I frequent when I compare it against some other bikes that I have ridden the same terrain it just gets a bit out of sync and does not stay as calm. I have to pay a bit more attention to the line that I am riding. Notice I was very specific in the terrain "tough ledgy terrain" Moab is bit smoother and the Mojo does fine. Pueblo South Shore where I ride on some of the ups (which most people don't even ride) it just doesn't ride the way I feel a bike of this caliber should ride and especially in comparison to itself on other steep ugly terrain where it is a demon.



    Perhaps what everyone needs to do is pretend you are a reviewer for a magazine or the forum (which I am) and evaluate the Mojo, use the following criteria and be brutal and honest.

    Strengths:
    Weaknesses:
    Bottom Line:

    Value Rating:
    Overall Rating.

    She is a lovely creature but she is not perfect. Give it a try...

    Peace.
    My 1 year (Mojo) anniversary is coming up next month. I don't post a review of a bike until I spend a year on it. I agree with you. I just got my first dime size chip in the finish. No tape in this location. I can probably do a nail polish repair. It is only the clear finish.

    Honesty is the best approach. My year has been great, but not perfect. Posting honest reviews is the only way to improve the bike.
    Don

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by gonzo1034
    I highly recommend that you also test ride the Mojo!!! Find a dealer and get a demo. You could keep it for several days so you could ride the trails that you’re familiar with. You’re going to drop a pretty penny so make sure you get the bike that suits you best. I don’t have any first hand experience with Pivot but I know they have a DW link.

    The Mojo is in my opinion the best bike out there!!! It is very responsive and plush, the geometry on this bike is awesome. When you’re on the Mojo you get a great sense of control, whether your railing a corner, on the climbs or downhill’s you feel like a pro. Like any other bike it is very important to set up the suspension correctly. The Mojo handles like a champ on the trail and looks super sexy!!! You get exotic materials like Ultra High Modulus Carbon Fiber and a DW Link. You could build it very light in the low 20 ish LBS or build an All Mountain monster in the 27 ish LBS range. I hope this helps!!!!!
    not sure where you live in texas, but the bicycle sport shop sells them

  15. #15
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    Nice trail! I sure wish we had some conditions like that down here on the west coast! The coastal rock is pretty much shaley, dusty, and gravely - kind of hard to trust. We get hints of that high in the Sierra.

    To get back to topic… Would the Pivot 5.5 inch travel bike be any better with your Float RL and 120mm stem hopping down that section?

  16. #16
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    Great Picture. It is so hard to make steep stuff look steep in 2D. There is definitely a line, but it looks like you don't want to miss it. How does your Mojo handle that sort of terrain?

    Most of California is very different: either much more rounded or more broken down.

  17. #17
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    After visiting all the local shops and getting comments from the different vendors, I have mostly eliminated the Mojo in favor of the Titus Motolite (Based on feedback from the dealer selling both).

    It was a bit frustrating as most shop could not provide information about pricing and inventory as they needed to contact the manufacturers, which are closed on Saturdays.

    One shop also recommended the Turner Nitrous since I am light (weight limit of 165), but I think it is too much a race bike for me. He is going to provide me with a great deal, as they are "stuck" with one. But it will be well under 24 lbs .

    They also recommended the SantaCruz Superlight. Again, maybe too much of a race bike for me. He is trying to find one I can try.

    The Titus Motolite is now on my short list. The Pivot is also on it, but the price is pretty steep for both the frame and the complete builds they offer compared to the other vendors with similar technology.

    Thanks for all the feedback so far. I am now officially in information overload. Hoping to digest all of this overnight.

    Feel free to chime in more.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by flafonta
    After visiting all the local shops and getting comments from the different vendors, I have mostly eliminated the Mojo in favor of the Titus Motolite (Based on feedback from the dealer selling both).

    The Titus Motolite is now on my short list. The Pivot is also on it, but the price is pretty steep for both the frame and the complete builds they offer compared to the other vendors with similar technology.

    Thanks for all the feedback so far. I am now officially in information overload. Hoping to digest all of this overnight.

    Feel free to chime in more.
    Not really sure what is the rational to eliminate the Mojo ... the Titus motolite is fine but frankly if I had the choice I would get the Mojo. It is simply the most balanced, quick and plush bike I ever tried or owned. The asset of the bike is superb, and few go downhill so well. You can build it as a 24 pounds ultra-light trail bike or as a 28-30 pounds all-mountain monster, it can use a 130 to 160mm fork without a blip and has a state of the art frame with a fantastic attention to detail ... yep, I think you are making a mistake not getting a Mojo

    PS The Superlight is a very different bike then either moto or Mojo. The nitrous is a old style 3" travel race-only bike. You do not want either.

  19. #19
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    They also recommended the SantaCruz Superlight. Again, maybe too much of a race bike for me. He is trying to find one I can try.
    I have a hard time figuring out what your are really looking for. Ol single pivot Superlight is more in the class of a ~100mm XC race bike. Moj, more of an marathon race bike or long ride all mountain.
    SC Blur would be another one to look at if it's longer travel longer ride rough terrain bikes you are looking for. Then, if you really like it, buy a Moj. Then also try 2008 Trek Fuel 9 . 0 or 9.5 Ex.
    Carbon mountain bikes frames feel much different than alum.
    Also, Hey, Gram try the Moj with a 3 stage fork and it might eliminate some of the complaints you have climbing the rocky stuff. I ride Apex, Dinasour Ridge, White Ranch etc and it out handles by just a little bit anything else I've tried in the rough stuff on rocky ridge climbing even with the slack head angle. Including XC bikes like the old short travel Fuel. Note: this is with the Talas fork travel set at 100mm not 140mm, set with light rebound and compression pretty heavy. (things you can't do with non-linear air spring RL lockout)
    When I tested the Moj I demoed with a setup and switched the exact same setup between 3 different brand bikes to test on the front range. This convinced me that it was the ultimate rocky moutain riding atb at this time.
    Of course, just for me as opinions are like....well like you said to each his own.
    Last edited by ghawk; 02-18-2008 at 04:27 AM.

  20. #20
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    I know I sound all over the map. I always give the same speech to salesman and I think they interpret it differently.

    I always say "I want a trail bike that is suitable for some non competitive racing. I don't want a ride that is too harsh. I ride 3 times a week and race once a month." Some focus on the racing part, other on the trail riding part.

    The salesman at the Mojo/Titus dealer thought the Titus would be better for me than the Mojo. Since he carries both and he is the only Titus and Ibis in town, his opinion had some weight on me. I think one reason he recommended the Titus was also for pricing reason. With my budget (~4K), I can get much better components on a Motolite compared to a Mojo. He did mentioned that if I was going to spend $5.5K, than the Mojo might be more attractive.

    Regarding the Superlight and the Nitrous, I agree they do not really fit my goals. But I might be able to try the Superlight which would provide a clear answer.

    Ideally I would try these bikes before making my final decision.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by flafonta
    I know I sound all over the map. I always give the same speech to salesman and I think they interpret it differently.

    I always say "I want a trail bike that is suitable for some non competitive racing. I don't want a ride that is too harsh. I ride 3 times a week and race once a month." Some focus on the racing part, other on the trail riding part.

    The salesman at the Mojo/Titus dealer thought the Titus would be better for me than the Mojo. Since he carries both and he is the only Titus and Ibis in town, his opinion had some weight on me. I think one reason he recommended the Titus was also for pricing reason. With my budget (~4K), I can get much better components on a Motolite compared to a Mojo. He did mentioned that if I was going to spend $5.5K, than the Mojo might be more attractive.

    Regarding the Superlight and the Nitrous, I agree they do not really fit my goals. But I might be able to try the Superlight which would provide a clear answer.

    Ideally I would try these bikes before making my final decision.
    In comparing the Mojo and the Titus, a big question is if you liked the ride of your old Specialized? The overall ride of the Titus will be much like your old bike. I was like you and traded up from a FSR to a Titus. I liked the ride of my old bike but thought it was too flexy and did not climb very well. The Titus is the bike I thought the FSR was supposed to be.

  22. #22
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    I really liked my 07 Stumpjumper, but I have not tried anything else.

    It could have had less pedal bob and could have been lighter.

    And my cornering was not very good compare to others, but that was probably due to my skills more than the bike.

  23. #23
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    Riding experiences

    The Titus Motolite in 5 inch travel I demoed has just about the same handling and ride feel as the Pivot Mach-5 prototype using the same shock I demo rode in September, with smoother sharp bump hits on the Pivot. Although the Pivot had a 140mm fork vs. the 130mm on the MotoLite – so with a 140mm fork the Motolite is a touch slower turning, about halfway between the extremely tight turning Pivot and the more relaxed and stable Mojo with 140mm fork. I’m heavier rider near 200 lbs, and the Pivot is too tight steering for my confidence downhill, but a lighter rider may prefer the quicker handling.

    The Motolite pedal bobs far less than FSR’s with light propedal, there is a very apparent difference - Horst links are not all the same. The Motolite pedal bob is nearly as little as the Mojo and Pivot which both don’t pedal bob at all with light propedal but bob a little less than the Motolite when standing and hard climbing. With the same shock the Mojo is more bump compliant than either. The Mojo and Pivot are smoother hitting bumps small and large when seated pedaling than the Motolite.

    The Mojo is a lighter and more versatile design than either. It can be built with shorter fork for quick XC race steering and firm up the shock to closely match the Pivot or Motolite with less frame weight, and the Mojo can be slacked into a proven durable AM bike with longer and stiffer fork and more compliant shock settings which the Pivot and Motolite could never match.

    The DW-LINK is the best suspension in the world if you are interested in combining the most efficient pedaling and bump compliance - all other design have trade-offs in comparison, if just as bump compliant they pedal bob more, if as efficient pedaling in some situations then not as bump compliant. The DW-LINK is especially superior if you like very soft suspension setup for maximum bump compliance without any loss in seated pedaling efficacy.

    The Motolite frames are only $1300 (unless the price is up) vs. near $2k for the Mojo and I would assume the same for the Pivot. Is the $700 difference for the same build worth it? Between the very similar ride feel of the Motolite and Pivot Mach-5 maybe, but for $700 the lighter and more versatile use Mojo with the same build is a clearly a value bonus.

    For your racing interests for any of these bikes the RP23 shock and some higher end adjustable platform type fork (I’m not familiar with these) would give better standing hard pedaling performance.
    Last edited by derby; 02-17-2008 at 11:23 AM.

  24. #24
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    Great write up Derby, thanks!

    I thought the Motolite frame was ~1300, but it looks like they increased the price to 2K

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by flafonta
    I really liked my 07 Stumpjumper, but I have not tried anything else.

    It could have had less pedal bob and could have been lighter.

    And my cornering was not very good compare to others, but that was probably due to my skills more than the bike.

    If you liked the Stumpy, and want a similar ride but lighter and better in the corners, the MLII could be your ride. You are on an IBIS site, so you are going to get an IBIS bias.

    As for the price, the ML II production moved back to the USA and the cost increased.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by derby
    Nice trail! I sure wish we had some conditions like that down here on the west coast! The coastal rock is pretty much shaley, dusty, and gravely - kind of hard to trust. We get hints of that high in the Sierra.

    To get back to topic… Would the Pivot 5.5 inch travel bike be any better with your Float RL and 120mm stem hopping down that section?
    Can't say Derby, I would have to have them send me one to test on my terrain. If I had the same version that was at the Interbike show my fillings would have come out, but according to _dw they have fixed their shock issue, but since I have not ridden it since then I cannot make any comment.

  27. #27
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    Okay here is something to though about.

    Yeah non-boutique like Giant, Trek do produce good bikes at a great value but if you are the person who like to own the latest bike, then non-boutique bikes should be avoid at all time cause they will update the looks or the bike every year (to improve it more and dont be trapped in the marketing gimmick (very common when they compare their competitor suspension designs)).

    Hmm, ML2, Mojo, Pivot. Those are great bikes but I must add Mojo SL in it. From my opinion Pivot has a pretty cool looking aluminium frame but with all those special looking parts, it wont be lighter then a conventional tubing like the ML2 (assuming both has the same strength). And you wont know how is the customer service (hope it wont be like Ellsworth).

    ML2 uses HorstLink but the DW-Link is better then HorstLink unless you are the rider who dont mind locking out your shock that is. Now between Mojo and Mojo SL. If you are a weight weenie or weight concern person, then you should opt for the Mojo SL. Its lighter and it has the new unique to Ibis (so far) rubberized paint. Oh yeah and you can still put protection sticker onto the Mojo SL.

    Now, for customer service. I belive out of all the bike manufacturers listed, I can safely say Ibis has the best CS out there. Because Ibis is a small bike company, their workers can keep track of any reported problems with the bike and so far if you read through the forums, they aren't many reports bout a broken frame (those reported in this forum is more likely the case of the paint cracks and seat collar which has been solved).

    Personally, I prefer the Mojo (Mojo SL) cause its a carbon bike you getting and its one of the best carbon trail bike out there that can be converted as a XC rig. Not to mention you get one of the best customer service in the market.
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  28. #28
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    The SL does not help me much with 2 issues:

    Staying under $4K
    Need a bike ASAP (I am currently bikeless) and I have a race in 3 weeks. I thought the SL was very hard to get.

    Beside the weight, any differences between the regular and SL Mojo?

    Thanks.

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    One more question:

    It appears to me that Ibis offers better full bike kits for the money than Titus and Pivot.

    Is that right? I have to admit, I am not an expert on all these components.

    All 3 frames retail for about the same price (~2K).

    Thanks

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by flafonta
    The SL does not help me much with 2 issues:

    Staying under $4K
    Need a bike ASAP (I am currently bikeless) and I have a race in 3 weeks. I thought the SL was very hard to get.

    Beside the weight, any differences between the regular and SL Mojo?

    Thanks.
    The SL is lighter due to the shock and carbon headset cups and.... maybe one more thing I'm not thinking of.

    But yes, besides weight savings and paint, they are the same bike and will ride the same.

    "I must not be crazy because I'm seriously questioning my sanity"

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    Yeah, its surprising that Ibis still can offer good bike package although they are a small boutique bike company.
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    Hi Again,

    I tried both the Mojo and Motolite today back to back, in the parking lot, but with some curb jumpings, bunny hops, etc.

    The suspension on the Mojo feels a lot better to me. Very firm pedaling, but very soft on bumps. The Motolite was nice, but the Mojo was just much better.

    I am convinced the DW suspension is the thing I want.

    So I think I will pull the trigger for a Mojo with the XT build, which stretches my budget a little bit.

    I am still itching to try to Pivot again with proper adjustments... Just waiting a few hours before the final decision...

  33. #33
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    Have you looked at the geometry of both bikes? Or would you know what to look for?

    I am 6'4" and the geometry of the Pivot would not at all work. The bikes are too short with slacker seat tubes which makes handling sketchy and steep climbs a bear. It is sad because the bikes are one of the best engineed of any I have seen. Stiffer than a Mojo per mass. That is basically their selling point. The Mojo is also very well designed and would definitely be an awesome choice if you can live without a water bottle. For some races, a water bottle is necessary though and this is the only downside besides the lack of stiffness in the rearend if you are on the heavy side. But super light and durable.

    It is interesting that you have narrowed your choice to DW-link bikes. I agree with all the folks on this forum that it is the best design(from a purely suspension standpoint) but it is very hard to design a bike around it and make it stiff. Pivot has done the best job at this so far. The links of the Mojo(although noticable lighter) cannot compete in stiffness.

  34. #34
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    Well you do get a stiffer bike with the pivot and the extra gain in weight. Besides, you wont be able to notice the flex on the Mojo unless you are a real heavy rider
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    just to throw another spanner in the works, how would the new stumpjumper 08 stack up in this company? To me it seems it would be a more balanced list to include this instead of the epic?

    Derby, have you ridden this yet - does the horst link revision add anything?

  36. #36
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    What horst link revision? You mean the 'Brain'? Well the brain is a oil valve control which determines should the shock be locked or not.

    I still believe the DW-Link or any VPP bike would perform better then HL bikes in terms of pedalling performance.

    Anyway if you want to compare about customer service. Ibis beats Specialized hands down.

    Go Ibis!!!! and their Customer Service!!!
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    I read in one of Derby's thread, that for 08 the chainstay pivot has been revised to relflect a "true horst position" - not quite sure what that means in terms of performance etc - Derby if you are here, please explain?

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by matt_brodie
    I read in one of Derby's thread, that for 08 the chainstay pivot has been revised to relflect a "true horst position" - not quite sure what that means in terms of performance etc - Derby if you are here, please explain?
    Specialized moved the pivot closer to the BB to avoid interference with Shimano Derailleurs. This compromised performance.

    And dw, pretending to be this wheelhot guy is just silly!

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    oh - doesn't sound too promising.

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    huh? dw pretending to be wheelhot is silly? swt, im not dw.

    I guess the horst still rides the same as in the rider wont be able to tell the difference.
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  41. #41
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    Why not buy the SX package, sell the Crossride wheels on ebay and buy a lighter wheelset. You will be close to the same weight as the XT package, but well within your budget.

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    Thanks for all the help.

    I pulled the trigger on the Mojo with the XT build yesterday.

    The test ride, although in the parking lot for all 3 (Mojo, Titus and Pivot), confirmed that I really wanted the DW suspension. The Mojo had better components and weight than the Pivot for similar price. It also felt better, but I think it was a setup issue.

    Now the wait is killing me. I hope to get it next week, in time for my next race.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by wheelhot
    ML2 uses HorstLink but the DW-Link is better then HorstLink unless you are the rider who dont mind locking out your shock that is.
    So you're saying the DW wheel path, anti squat, has an auto lockout feature built in, i.e. suspension stiffens under load? Nice!!! Controlled flex combined with auto lockout = one great bike

    I do have one question, however, how can it stay bump compliant while pedaling, as reported by others here, if it has auto lockout?
    Last edited by SCUBAPRO; 02-20-2008 at 02:57 PM.
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  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by flafonta
    Thanks for all the help.

    I pulled the trigger on the Mojo with the XT build yesterday.

    The test ride, although in the parking lot for all 3 (Mojo, Titus and Pivot), confirmed that I really wanted the DW suspension. The Mojo had better components and weight than the Pivot for similar price. It also felt better, but I think it was a setup issue.
    Awesome!!! As I said, I think the geometry is better on the Mojo. How did it feel better to you flafonta?

  45. #45
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    My 5 categories when I decide to do my bike review will
    be:

    1)tech climbing/descending bump sensitivity

    2)traction

    3)pedal feedback

    4)geometry/handling

    5)endurance climbing/pedaling efficiency

    Having ridden an mkiii, FSR, and others, I haven't found a bike that does
    1, 2, & 3 as well as the Chumba XCL, another classic horst design like the motolite. The mojo is a lot lighter, though, and may be better suited for the
    riding you do or the area you ride. Not trying to downplay the advantages of the
    mojo/dw-link. There's tradeoffs to each design. derby's point is well taken that
    maybe the mojo is the best combination of the tradeoffs for you.
    I saw some mojos for the first time at 24 hours in the old pueblo race this
    past weekend, they were the sweetest looking bikes there, no doubt.
    I live in AZ, where the terrain is more like pastajets in Colo, and I tend to
    prefer a smooth, completely neutral feeling suspension in rocky climbs.
    Last edited by le_buzz; 02-23-2008 at 04:54 PM.

  46. #46
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    Yogiprohet,

    My test rides were very short and in a parking lot, so take my comments with a grain of salt. I will provide a longer review once I try my Mojo on my usual trails.

    The Motolite felt just like other bikes I have tried before, but with a better execution. It felt stiff when pedaling hard and accelerating, but with some bob. It felt like my Stumpjumper, just stiffer laterally and vertically on pedaling and bumps. It did absorb the bumps very well and I could feel the plushness of the suspension, but not as soft as my Stumpjumper.

    The Mojo felt quite different to me. It felt very light, comfortable, quiet, very firm on pedaling (almost like a hard tail). But when going over the curbs at decent speeds, the bike just absorbed the curb very well, without feeling like on a big Marshmallow. Hard to explain. The suspension just did its job.

    Another reason to take these comments lightly: The Motolite was setup as a $3K bike versus the Mojo at $5.5K. And these Ergon grips on the Mojo demo felt very good, adding to the overall pleasure... Simple things sometimes make a big difference.

  47. #47
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    Dave,

    I know you probably can't answer this, but I'm going to ask anyway. Any chance that either Ibis or Pivot will release a 6" travel rig for '09?

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by anand
    Specialized moved the pivot closer to the BB to avoid interference with Shimano Derailleurs. This compromised performance.
    I haven't ridden a Specialized bike in a few years since the Brain shock (ugh!) was pretty new

    Specialized re-centered there FSR geometry closer to original, the last 6 years had a compromised, nearly useless ICT design of FSR. In the ’08 models of FSR, the main pivot is repositioned to the back of the seatpost above the BB about an inch, and also lowered the drop-out pivot to about 1 inch forward and below the axle. Both repostions of the pivots are near the more original chainstay geometry of Horst designs Specialized used prior to 2001, and what Titus has always maintained. The more original Horst geometry has a more anti-squat needing less damping resistance to settle pedal bob than the last 6 years of more compromised FSR's. (I should qualify that this is my opinion. Some rider’s prefer lesser efficiency and mushier, bouncy pedaling or very firm shocks.)

    The Stumpjumper FSR is 120mm travel, 1 inch less travel than the Mojo or Pivot Mach-5. I wouldn't put it very close in the same class of bikes.

    Specialized appears to be designing more stiffness into their frames, the FSR's used to be pretty flexy, much more so than the Mojo's minor flex seen in one test area. They are probably much stiffer now close to the stiffness of Trek, Turner, Titus and most other aluminum multilinks now.

    The dw-Link is a large step better in mountain bike suspension performance in nearly all ways than the Horst Link ever got to beyond the best monopivot suspension types. Only in braking do some Horst links compare as well in brake balance and grip.

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by derby
    The dw-Link is a large step better in mountain bike suspension performance in nearly all ways than the Horst Link ever got to beyond the best monopivot suspension types. Only in braking do some Horst links compare as well in brake balance and grip.
    This is useless without empirical data. Please share your data that demonstrates the above conclusions. Thank you!
    Last edited by SCUBAPRO; 02-22-2008 at 10:34 AM.
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  50. #50
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    Thanks flafonta, I have noticed the front suspension plays a big role in how the rear works. IOW, if the front is plush the rear will feel plusher.
    I saw a video on the Ibis website of different guys riding the Mojo and one of them was riding up a root step and it seemed as if the suspension did not do a very good job of absorbing it and consequently he lost some momentum. Mabey it was the crappy Fox Shox. It sounds like your saying it absorbed big hits at speed very well which it should if the damper is any good.

    What rear shock did the Mojo have and what setting?

    I mat have to try an Ergon grip. Wonder how it would work for racing...

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by SCUBAPRO
    This is useless without empirical data. Please share your data that demonstrates the above conclusions. Thank you!

    From a theoretical standpoint, the dw-link has all the right moves. There are some Horst-link designs that come close such as the old 5 Spot. As far as executing the dw-link...that is much more difficult than a Horst-link.

    If you have the ability to interpret the data, get yourself a linkage program.

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by SCUBAPRO
    This is useless without empirical data. Please share your data that demonstrates the above conclusions. Thank you!
    Good question… there is no proof, no scientific tested evidence I’ve ever heard of that any horst link was better than any monopivot, or any dw link was better than any horst link.

    DW is the first to optimize bike suspension design on well accepted physics formulas to design improved performance.

    Would those old laws of physics still hold up under modern scientific testing?

  53. #53
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    Good question… there is no proof, no scientific tested evidence I’ve ever heard of that any horst link was better than any monopivot, or any dw link was better than any horst link.

    DW is the first to optimize bike suspension design on well accepted physics formulas to design improved performance.

    Would those old laws of physics still hold up under modern scientific testing?
    Good Answer
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  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by yogiprophet
    Thanks flafonta, I have noticed the front suspension plays a big role in how the rear works. IOW, if the front is plush the rear will feel plusher.
    I saw a video on the Ibis website of different guys riding the Mojo and one of them was riding up a root step and it seemed as if the suspension did not do a very good job of absorbing it and consequently he lost some momentum. Mabey it was the crappy Fox Shox. It sounds like your saying it absorbed big hits at speed very well which it should if the damper is any good.

    What rear shock did the Mojo have and what setting?

    I mat have to try an Ergon grip. Wonder how it would work for racing...
    I noticed that also in the video, and also riding behind somebody who was riding an mkiii on a technical uphill with a lot of boulders you had to ride over.
    I think it probably has more to do with the rear suspension than the fork, although a bad fork could create that problem too. BTW, both the mojo and the
    mkiii were designed around Fox shocks, I don't think dw would be using them
    if they were crappy.

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by derby
    I haven't ridden a Specialized bike in a few years since the Brain shock (ugh!) was pretty new

    Specialized re-centered there FSR geometry closer to original, the last 6 years had a compromised, nearly useless ICT design of FSR. In the ’08 models of FSR, the main pivot is repositioned to the back of the seatpost above the BB about an inch, and also lowered the drop-out pivot to about 1 inch forward and below the axle. Both repostions of the pivots are near the more original chainstay geometry of Horst designs Specialized used prior to 2001, and what Titus has always maintained. The more original Horst geometry has a more anti-squat needing less damping resistance to settle pedal bob than the last 6 years of more compromised FSR's. (I should qualify that this is my opinion. Some rider’s prefer lesser efficiency and mushier, bouncy pedaling or very firm shocks.)

    The Stumpjumper FSR is 120mm travel, 1 inch less travel than the Mojo or Pivot Mach-5. I wouldn't put it very close in the same class of bikes.

    Specialized appears to be designing more stiffness into their frames, the FSR's used to be pretty flexy, much more so than the Mojo's minor flex seen in one test area. They are probably much stiffer now close to the stiffness of Trek, Turner, Titus and most other aluminum multilinks now.

    The dw-Link is a large step better in mountain bike suspension performance in nearly all ways than the Horst Link ever got to beyond the best monopivot suspension types. Only in braking do some Horst links compare as well in brake balance and grip.
    I only made a point on the nature of the change in the Horst link, nothing more, nothing less.

    I personally have never ridden a Mojo, but really like the look of the bike. I have ridden a dw linked Iron horse and liked it. Was not blown away but it was a nice bike. Same thing when I rode a Blur LT -except that bike had traits I did not like.

    People need to ride bikes and just enjoy them. We spend way too much time arguing over what bike is better. Stupid if you ask me. Most good designs ride pretty well. In fact, for the most part, they ride really well.

    As for physics, please put that crap to bed. These are bikes with pretty simple designs that all follow basic principles of physics.

  56. #56
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    flafonta, or anyone:

    It's interesting to see another potential buyer facing the same dilemma: Mojo or Mach 5. Both utilize very similar design, suspension, and components. Both are relatively new and causing a stir in the mtb market.

    Let us know what you find with your Mojo. Me, Iive in western Montana, with very technical rocky trails. 'Course, in my neck of the woods (within four hours anyway) there is no Mojo dealer, and my fav local shop is Specialized.

    For me, the bigger decision is buy local and go with Specialized (or Santa Cruz) or follow my gut and go out of town for a Mojo.

  57. #57
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    I have both bikes. I rode a 2004 spot for 3 years, then bought the mojo last year and then purchased a pivot 2 weeks ago. Hands down the pivot is a better bike. I cannot pinpoint the exact reasons yet, i just know that it climbs and descends better than the mojo. Yes the mojo is more plush and yes the mojo is tons lighter, but the pivot just seems to be built better and built for speed. I can clean rock garden climbs on the pivot alot easier than i could on the mojo and I feel like i can go on much longer rides with the pivot vs. the mojo.

    Is the mojo an awesome bike, yes! my only issue was that i had a large and at 6'3, i just felt cramped no matter what i did to change my fitting. btw, anyone want to buy my mojo with rhythm elites and a fox talas rlc fork.

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by SCUBAPRO
    So you're saying the DW wheel path, anti squat, has an auto lockout feature built in, i.e. suspension stiffens under load? Nice!!! Controlled flex combined with auto lockout = one great bike

    I do have one question, however, how can it stay bump compliant while pedaling, as reported by others here, if it has auto lockout?

    Have you thought about running for political office? You seem to have a passion for turning people's words around to try to prove your own point. Either you truly have no idea what Ray is talking about, or you have an alterior motive. I bet its a combintaion of both. I especially love how you cut a piece of a post that I made about acceleration performance and analysis of different suspension designs that I made into some kind of definitive statement in your signature. Classic..

    How many miles did you ride today?

    Perhaps you could elaboate on what Derby said in his post that is incorrect?
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  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by SCUBAPRO
    This is useless without empirical data. Please share your data that demonstrates the above conclusions. Thank you!
    I'd love to see your empirical data that proves any technical point whatsoever.
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  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by seandm
    I have both bikes. I rode a 2004 spot for 3 years, then bought the mojo last year and then purchased a pivot 2 weeks ago. Hands down the pivot is a better bike. I cannot pinpoint the exact reasons yet, i just know that it climbs and descends better than the mojo. Yes the mojo is more plush and yes the mojo is tons lighter, but the pivot just seems to be built better and built for speed. I can clean rock garden climbs on the pivot alot easier than i could on the mojo and I feel like i can go on much longer rides with the pivot vs. the mojo.

    Is the mojo an awesome bike, yes! my only issue was that i had a large and at 6'3, i just felt cramped no matter what i did to change my fitting. btw, anyone want to buy my mojo with rhythm elites and a fox talas rlc fork.
    So, which Pivot did you get? 4 or 5?

    It helps that the Pivot's are so stiff.

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by _dw
    I'd love to see your empirical data that proves any technical point whatsoever.
    Do I sense some hostility?

    dw, could you please elaborate on what you see as the advantages of the center of curvature path of the dw-link suspension?

  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by _dw
    I'd love to see your empirical data that proves any technical point whatsoever.
    NO! You're the expert so YOU show us YOUR empirical data that proves beyond any reasonable doubt that your wheelpath is better on the trail than any other design out there. Surely you have such data or is is also all mere theory?
    "The best you've ridden is the best you know" - Paul Thede, Race Tech

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    Quote Originally Posted by yogiprophet
    So, which Pivot did you get? 4 or 5?

    It helps that the Pivot's are so stiff.
    Mach 5 and yes they are stiff. That's probably their selling point for the riding here in AZ, with all the rocks and whoopty whoops.

  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by SCUBAPRO
    NO! You're the expert so YOU show us YOUR empirical data that proves beyond any reasonable doubt that your wheelpath is better on the trail than any other design out there. Surely you have such data or is is also all mere theory?
    That's what I thought.

    There are always guys like you out there. No real understanding of what they are talking about, just a passion to argue against someone else. If you are looking for answers, search them out. If you are looking to gain credibility as someone knowledgeable about the subjects that you are discussing, show why that credibility should be given. Just don't pretend like you have some kind of concrete knowledge backing up your opinions when you clearly don't.

    This is all about you.
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  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by yogiprophet
    Do I sense some hostility?

    dw, could you please elaborate on what you see as the advantages of the center of curvature path of the dw-link suspension?
    Its a little bit of an annoyance to me when I see people form and argue strong opinions without anything to back it up. In the cycling industry I see whole companies suspension lines and associated marketing dynasties based on total BS. People making up alternative versions of physics, making up terminnology and analysis that is nothing short of comical. It kills me, its sad really.

    I've written about this subject AT LENGTH on mtbr and ridemonkey over the past few years. I've provided equations, detailed explaination etc.. You can use the search function to find some of it, and some of it may be lost to the ether, it goes back to 1999-2000 for some of the work. If you are really interested in how axle path ties into bike performance, you can read my '397 patent as a start, but really anyone who has a chance of reading the patents and understanding them fully needs to have some frame of reference. If you really are interested in understanding, take 2 semesters of kinematics and one semester of vector dynamics at the local university, then read Fundamentals of Vehicl Dynamics by Gillespie, and then Tony Foale's motorcycle book. Take the time to understand them. Then it should start to come together for you.

    Most people aren't that motivated though. Its a lot easier to be a naysayer without any education to back it up.
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  66. #66
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    It is all about you and your ego!

    Quote Originally Posted by _dw
    That's what I thought.

    There are always guys like you out there. No real understanding of what they are talking about, just a passion to argue against someone else. If you are looking for answers, search them out. If you are looking to gain credibility as someone knowledgeable about the subjects that you are discussing, show why that credibility should be given. Just don't pretend like you have some kind of concrete knowledge backing up your opinions when you clearly don't.

    This is all about you.
    Wow, that's a pretty bold conclusion when such can also apply to YOU. You ask for data, I do not show it then you conclude I know not what I talk about while you yourself refuse to show the data. What does that make you based on your own logic?

    Why are you making this personal. I was just asking questions. There, however, must be a reason behind why such questions offend you and why you then go on personally attacking people. Are you hiding or afraid of something?

    The way I see it is that YOU are the one who has something to prove here; not me. It is YOUR credibility at stake here; not mine. It's all about you and your ego; isn't it? If your physics is sound as you say it is then prove it or point us toward a publication in a reputable, peer reviewed physics journal where such comparison was made.

    I am actually in agreement with you most of the time and had a lot of respect for you and value and truly appreciate your contribution until this thread. I have been a big fan of you and your knowledge till this. I have ridden your designs and like them but it is this hostility towards people who question you that makes me wonder if your wheelpath is all based on theory and not empirical data, just like others in the industry, as you note in your post below. Also note that my questions in previous posts herein were not directed at you. I was questioning other peoples blanket statements; not yours. So what gives _dw?

    BTW, I totally agree with your statement that "Its a little bit of an annoyance to me when I see people form and argue strong opinions without anything to back it up" (note: this also applies to you). Hence my questioning of other people's statements. Again, theirs NOT yours. I have nothing against you or your company. Peace!

    Quote Originally Posted by _dw
    Its a little bit of an annoyance to me when I see people form and argue strong opinions without anything to back it up. In the cycling industry I see whole companies suspension lines and associated marketing dynasties based on total BS. People making up alternative versions of physics, making up terminnology and analysis that is nothing short of comical. It kills me, its sad really.

    I've written about this subject AT LENGTH on mtbr and ridemonkey over the past few years. I've provided equations, detailed explaination etc.. You can use the search function to find some of it, and some of it may be lost to the ether, it goes back to 1999-2000 for some of the work. If you are really interested in how axle path ties into bike performance, you can read my '397 patent as a start, but really anyone who has a chance of reading the patents and understanding them fully needs to have some frame of reference. If you really are interested in understanding, take 2 semesters of kinematics and one semester of vector dynamics at the local university, then read Fundamentals of Vehicl Dynamics by Gillespie, and then Tony Foale's motorcycle book. Take the time to understand them. Then it should start to come together for you.

    Most people aren't that motivated though. Its a lot easier to be a naysayer without any education to back it up.
    So how much education have you had? Do you have a degree in Physics, engineering or any other science?
    Last edited by SCUBAPRO; 02-26-2008 at 10:08 PM.
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  67. #67
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    I agree with _dw
    “Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep moving.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Squeaky Wheel
    I agree with _dw

    I agree with SCUBAPRO






    .... just to be a dck

    Also, have not seen a bike company owner/designer write like this since the Intense 5.5 travel threads. _dw may be very smart and a great guy, but in these last few posts, he is coming off as a rude SOB. And I thought the Turner Nazi's were bad! Just my opinion.

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    The pivot is stiff cause the linkages is short and it looks really tought. Problem is, those extra hole in the seattube (to place the linkages in) cause the frame to be heavier. I wonder how is Pivot Customer Service though.
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  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by anand
    I agree with SCUBAPRO

    .... just to be a dck

    Also, have not seen a bike company owner/designer write like this since the Intense 5.5 travel threads. _dw may be very smart and a great guy, but in these last few posts, he is coming off as a rude SOB. And I thought the Turner Nazi's were bad! Just my opinion.
    I agree with whoever is correct
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  71. #71
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    I agree with agreeing with who's right

    Quote Originally Posted by anand
    I agree with SCUBAPRO.... just to be a dck
    That works too.

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by SCUBAPRO
    Wow, that's a pretty bold conclusion when such can also apply to YOU. You ask for data, I do not show it then you conclude I know not what I talk about while you yourself refuse to show the data. What does that make you based on your own logic?

    Why are you making this personal. I was just asking questions. There, however, must be a reason behind why such questions offend you and why you then go on personally attacking people. Are you hiding or afraid of something?

    The way I see it is that YOU are the one who has something to prove here; not me. It is YOUR credibility at stake here; not mine. If your physics is sound as you say it is then prove it. Or point us toward a publication in a reputable, peer reviewed physics journal where such comparison was made:

    I am actually in agreement with you all the time. Also had a lot of respect for you and value and truly appreciate your contribution until this thread. I have been a big fan of you and your knowledge till this. I have ridden your designs and like them but it is this hostility towards people who question you that makes me wonder if your wheelpath is all based on theory and not empirical data, just like others in the industry, as you note in your post below. Also note that my questions in previous posts herein were not directed at you. I was questioning other peoples blanket statements; not yours. So what gives _dw?

    BTW, I totally agree with your statement that "Its a little bit of an annoyance to me when I see people form and argue strong opinions without anything to back it up." Hence my questioning of other people's statements. Again, theirs NOT yours. I have nothing against you or your company. Peace!
    I think that you're picking up what I'm putting down now. I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with anyone's technical opinon, yours Ray's, etc.. (Although I do understand what Ray is getting at, and although his terminology can be misinterpreted in this case, in general he's on the right track about a lot of his observations) I'm just saying that without backup either opinion is just that, an opinion. There's nothing wrong with having an opinion as long as its prefaced as such.

    Nothing about me is on the line, I don't have anything to prove that hasn't been proven already. I've given you some refernces to go read and learn about. The physics that govern what I do have been understood since the time of Issac Newton. I don't define the physics, I just develop solutions to problems that fall within that physical framework. I've broken it down to bite sized pieces for anyone willing to learn about it, but its up to the learner to take that first step. Its not an overnight process but it can be learned with time, commitment, and patience.
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  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by anand
    I agree with SCUBAPRO






    .... just to be a dck

    Also, have not seen a bike company owner/designer write like this since the Intense 5.5 travel threads. _dw may be very smart and a great guy, but in these last few posts, he is coming off as a rude SOB. And I thought the Turner Nazi's were bad! Just my opinion.
    I might be having a bad day, I'm not sure. So far it seems good, the morning has been typical, working on the computer, cleaning a bike, general weekend chores, about to have some hot sour soup for lunch then I'll probably go ride in the mud and snow. Everything seems all good to me. I think I'm typically a really easy going guy, but I have about zero tolerance for BS. Tough problem when you are someone who enjoys participating in interweb discussions.
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  74. #74
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    I would simply suggest that ya'll wait until Wheezy(IKE), chimes in with his opinion. It's really the only one that matters.

    PS DW, I know where Scuby rides...Just say the word and I'll kick that Hater in the nutz.
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  75. #75
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    zero tolerance!

    Quote Originally Posted by _dw
    I might be having a bad day, I'm not sure. So far it seems good, the morning has been typical, working on the computer, cleaning a bike, general weekend chores, about to have some hot sour soup for lunch then I'll probably go ride in the mud and snow. Everything seems all good to me. I think I'm typically a really easy going guy, but I have about zero tolerance for BS. Tough problem when you are someone who enjoys participating in interweb discussions.
    Question: who's BS are you referring to?

    My question/request for data that got you all fired up was to point out BS yet you went after me with personal attacks. Again, what gives man?

    Oh, and I agree with Aqua but I'm no hater. I also agree with Squeak and anand...

    Quote Originally Posted by _dw
    I think that you're picking up what I'm putting down now. I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with anyone's technical opinon, yours Ray's, etc.. (Although I do understand what Ray is getting at, and although his terminology can be misinterpreted in this case, in general he's on the right track about a lot of his observations) I'm just saying that without backup either opinion is just that, an opinion. There's nothing wrong with having an opinion as long as its prefaced as such.
    Agreed! That is exactly why I asked for empirical data.

    Quote Originally Posted by _dw
    Nothing about me is on the line, I don't have anything to prove that hasn't been proven already. I've given you some refernces to go read and learn about. The physics that govern what I do have been understood since the time of Issac Newton. I don't define the physics, I just develop solutions to problems that fall within that physical framework. I've broken it down to bite sized pieces for anyone willing to learn about it, but its up to the learner to take that first step. Its not an overnight process but it can be learned with time, commitment, and patience.
    I disagree with this. Your response using textbook as evidence to support/prove your claims is actually consistent with what an armchair engineer would do. (I'm not saying you are; it's just that your response is indicative of that.)

    How can you prove something if it is all based on theory but not empirical data (you reference your posts here, your own patent and text books)? True, it works great on paper and is the best design using principles passed on from Newton but where's the real world data showing comparison with other designs? If the data doesn't exist then perhaps one should preface it as such; yes?

    Education.

    You mention education in your post above. Just out of curiosity are you a real scientist or an engineer? What degree or degrees do you hold? I ask because based on your responses, I am not sure you understand how science works. Designing based on textbooks is a good starting point but you still need to test your product. Engineers and Scientists do this all the time.
    Last edited by SCUBAPRO; 02-27-2008 at 12:11 PM.
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    someone got a weight of the top spec mach 4 and 5

    they look like a nice bike.
    has someone got a weight of both the 4 and 5 in the xtr build on pivots site.

  77. #77
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    [QUOTE=_dw]I've written about this subject AT LENGTH on mtbr and ridemonkey over the past few years. I've provided equations, detailed explaination etc.. You can use the search function to find some of it, and some of it may be lost to the ether, it goes back to 1999-2000 for some of the work. If you are really interested in how axle path ties into bike performance, you can read my '397 patent as a start, but really anyone who has a chance of reading the patents and understanding them fully needs to have some frame of reference. If you really are interested in understanding, take 2 semesters of kinematics and one semester of vector dynamics at the local university, then read Fundamentals of Vehicl Dynamics by Gillespie, and then Tony Foale's motorcycle book. Take the time to understand them. Then it should start to come together for you. [QUOTE]

    I have an mech. engineer and physics degree so that may help me to understand. Mountain bike suspension is very specific and there is not much written on that particular subject as far as I know. Even though motorcycle suspension dynamics is the closest analysis, there are too many differences mostly to do with the intermittent motor(relatively speaking) and the transmission(different size chainrings) of the bicycle which makes it a much more complicated problem.
    I would have enjoyed discussing what you look for in a CC path and why.

    What i'm asking for(and forgive me if its been discussed before but I could not find anything about it) is the significance (if any)of the forward moving CC path of the dw-link suspension in qualitative terms. Thanks for any insite you can give.

    BTW, let's get back on the right foot here and start to love one another. We should not allow ourselves to buy into false perceptions about others and consequently feel justified about judging them. Do we really know where another is coming from knowing the limitation of the language we use and of our perceptions.
    Last edited by yogiprophet; 02-24-2008 at 05:25 PM.

  78. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by _dw
    I've written about this subject AT LENGTH on mtbr and ridemonkey over the past few years. I've provided equations, detailed explaination etc.. You can use the search function to find some of it, and some of it may be lost to the ether, it goes back to 1999-2000 for some of the work. If you are really interested in how axle path ties into bike performance, you can read my '397 patent as a start, but really anyone who has a chance of reading the patents and understanding them fully needs to have some frame of reference. If you really are interested in understanding, take 2 semesters of kinematics and one semester of vector dynamics at the local university, then read Fundamentals of Vehicl Dynamics by Gillespie, and then Tony Foale's motorcycle book. Take the time to understand them. Then it should start to come together for you.
    I hope someday to have the time to return to school and take these courses. I have little time and energy left after work to study up in my own engineering profession to keep employed in the very volatile business software development industry. My mental recreation time on MTBR learning more about bikes and discussing suspension and other topics is a nice break from the work day.

    I feel most fortunate that DW participates and reveals hints about the real factors of suspension dynamics. For over 8 years now I’ve been sifting through the various special pivot point or path myths and hype, so it’s great to hear the “ding-ding-ding” of the clear ring of truth from a well accomplished expert.

    Quote Originally Posted by yogiprophet
    I have an mech. engineer and physics degree so that may help me to understand. Mountain bike suspension is very specific and there is not much written on that particular subject as far as I know. Even though motorcycle suspension dynamics is the closest analysis, there are too many differences mostly to do with the intermittent motor and the transmission(different size chainrings) of the bicycle which makes it a much more complicated problem.
    I would have enjoyed discussing what you look for in a CC path and why.
    I’ve noticed Dave doesn’t get into the specific anti-squat or path shapes of each bike. Each DW design is unique with differences for the travel and intended uses. If he revealed much about these things more builders would attempt to copy his designs and there’d be more of the lousy business protecting his business and his partners from these thieves.
    Quote Originally Posted by SCUBAPRO
    How can you prove something if it is all based on theory but not empirical data (you reference your posts here, your own patent and text books)? True, it works great on paper and is the best design using principles passed on from Newton but where's the real world data showing comparison with other designs? If it doesn't exist then perhaps one should preface it as such; yes?
    Questioning empirical proof is a good question to the claims of performance. DW design uses physical science based proven laws, which when applied to empirical tests have proven in the past to validate consistently, for centuries. It follows logically, that what was proven true empirically in the past will continue to prove true in the present and future.

    If someone doesn’t believe in physics, that physics is “crap”, as someone claimed elsewhere in this tread, then to attempt to bring logic and truth to prejudice and hate is a waste of time.

    (It is my opinion) every post on MTBR is personal opinion and by simple common sense should not need to be qualified as such. Quoted authority should be qualified as such to differentiate from personal opinion. I regard more value to the personal opinions of those with more experience of a topic than to others having only beginner or intermediate experience.

    However, beginners bring a fresh sense of perspective and a chance for experts to re-evaluate their knowledge. For example as a relatively expert racetrack club driving school instructor with over 10 years instructor experience I have learned new and improved racing lines while riding with beginners from their simple sense of what feels right, providing me a new perspective beyond my over-analyzed preconceived expert notion of correctness.

    Everyone, beginner to expert, should be respected and allowed to make mistakes without fear of adversarial or personal attacks.

  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by seandm
    Mach 5 and yes they are stiff. That's probably their selling point for the riding here in AZ, with all the rocks and whoopty whoops.
    I really like the Mach-5 BB height of 13.8 inches for good technical trail pedal clearance.

    And I look forward to a demo ride on the production version Mach-5, the prototype I demoed in September was not as impressive handling and overall riding quality as the Mojo to me.

  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by derby
    I really like the Mach-5 BB height of 13.8 inches for good technical trail pedal clearance.

    And I look forward to a demo ride on the production version Mach-5, the prototype I demoed in September was not as impressive handling and overall riding quality as the Mojo to me.
    Derby, I think it was you that said the Mojo's BB height was different than what the Ibis guys told you. What does yours measure at full extension? If you don't have a measurement with the 26" front wheel, i'll take it with the 650b

    One thing I think is cool about the Mach 5 is that the shock stroke is 55mm instead of the Mojo's 50mm. Should have better damping with more stroke at the same amount of travel.

  81. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by derby
    For example as a relatively expert racetrack club driving school instructor with over 10 years instructor experience I have learned new and improved racing lines while riding with beginners from their simple sense of what feels right, providing me a new perspective beyond my over-analyzed preconceived expert notion of correctness.
    Out of curiosity, which club do you instruct with?

  82. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by derby
    If someone doesn’t believe in physics, that physics is “crap”, as someone claimed elsewhere in this tread, then to attempt to bring logic and truth to prejudice and hate is a waste of time..

    My point was not that I don't believe in physics but rather that making the claim that dw linked bikes are grounded in physics and insinuating that other bikes are not, is just silly. No, that argument is not just silly, it is crap!

    Also, in regards to the physics, we are not talking quantum mechanics here. Most good bikes use a simple design to achieve a set of goals (which is a good thing) and behave similarly on the trail. In the end, it comes down to feel and the ride that each individual feels suits him or her better.

  83. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by BitterDave
    Out of curiosity, which club do you instruct with?
    Redwood and Golden Gate Regions of the PCA between mid '80's and all of '90's. I was a student level driver about 6 years or so before instructing in autocross events, took over as Compitition Director of Redwood Region for 6 years and was gaining racetack experience. Then for about 5 seasons I instructed at all the NorCal racetracks. I still hold a 914-6 class track record at Laguna Seca, other records have been broken – never had a record at Sears Point (the fasted most difficult track by far in NorCal). I bought a house 8 years ago and ran one more season, but just couldn't afford the expenses anymore. Very fun, but when driving at the limits tires and mechanicals maintenance gets very expensive. Mountain biking is much healthier and I can scare myself and feed the adrenalin addiction for a lot less money!

  84. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by anand
    My point was not that I don't believe in physics but rather that making the claim that dw linked bikes are grounded in physics and insinuating that other bikes are not, is just silly. No, that argument is not just silly, it is crap!

    Also, in regards to the physics, we are not talking quantum mechanics here. Most good bikes use a simple design to achieve a set of goals (which is a good thing) and behave similarly on the trail. In the end, it comes down to feel and the ride that each individual feels suits him or her better.
    Well said! I think we can all agree on that; in theory.

    Peace, ya'll! I meant to offend no one! *sniff* I heart ya'll - group hug
    Last edited by SCUBAPRO; 02-25-2008 at 09:46 AM.
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  85. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by anand
    My point was not that I don't believe in physics but rather that making the claim that dw linked bikes are grounded in physics and insinuating that other bikes are not, is just silly. No, that argument is not just silly, it is crap!

    Also, in regards to the physics, we are not talking quantum mechanics here. Most good bikes use a simple design to achieve a set of goals (which is a good thing) and behave similarly on the trail. In the end, it comes down to feel and the ride that each individual feels suits him or her better.
    Bikes do seem simple at first impression. Yes go ride and enjoy your bike. I enjoy my dw-link bike more than any of the dozens I’ve ridden seeking top performance. I’m curious why it rides easier than all the others.

    If you think designing even a rigid bicycle that handles well is simple physics, try it. Adding suspension compounds an already very complex set of physical problems. Mountain bike suspension design is probably the most complex land vehicle problem there is until the engineering level of Formula 1 or MotoGP racing.

    Here’s more detail about the prior recent use (really lack of use) of science in the design of mountain bikes suspension performance efficiencies.

    Specialized has claims of magic pedaling efficiency from a “vertical” path. (the FSR path is round and only momentarily vertical near sag.)

    Ellsworth claims magical pedaling efficiencies from “a special IC point alignment taken from Formula 1” or some such nonsense. Other than a live-axle drag racer or modified leaf-spring rear suspensions in cars, there is no use of 4-bar trailing-linkage suspension used by cars. Motorcycles have experimented with such, Mert Lawwill modified Harley flat track race bikes with a 4-bar linkage and says he “ran over guys” decelerating and braking into corners with it. BMW uses a 4-bar shaft drive which club racers claims brakes better than the more commonly used monopivot motorcycle suspension.

    Turner says he designs based upon rider feedback. No hype there - this is the best you can do without science.

    There are other brands that hype and claim magical maximum efficiencies, but none other than DW are based upon applying proven science.

    Nearly all bike suspensions are evolved designs. DW took his background in science and engineering and started with a clean computer screen, and invented a revolutionary suspension design. The more efficient performance the dw-Link is a noticeable well balanced improvement over prior designs.

    (Qualifier: this is my opinion in case the reader doesn’t realize yet that every post in MTBR is opinion.)

  86. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by derby
    There are other brands that hype and claim magical maximum efficiencies, but none other than DW are based upon applying proven science.
    This is the heart of the issue, most everyone claims their design is better and based on sound principles (whatever they may be) and proven science but don't show any hard data to prove it. This seems to be the norm in the bike industry.

    It is different in diving where shootouts are based on machine and real world testing with methods and data published. Comparison, for example, of fins are done such that diver speed is measured using several different divers and a number of test runs, turning on a "slalom" type course is also measured, etc. I haven't seen much of this in the bike industry. Ellsworth has web page comparing ICT with others and quantitating performance difference which resulted in a about a 1-2% increase in efficiency with ICT but it looks like it is also theoretical/calculated.

    You know, sound principles and proven science are, IMHO, the way to go when designing something, but this has to be then tested in the real world also using sound principles of science. All too often one can come up with the best design based on said principles and science yet it fails to deliver in the real world. Also, these "other" companies do have engineers who understand the science and come up with their own design which they think is better. So who/which hype are we supposed to believe? Or in other words, who's right or are they all right, in some way? Only real world data will show that.
    Last edited by SCUBAPRO; 02-26-2008 at 11:42 AM.
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  87. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by derby
    Bikes do seem simple at first impression. Yes go ride and enjoy your bike. I enjoy my dw-link bike more than any of the dozens I’ve ridden seeking top performance. I’m curious why it rides easier than all the others.

    If you think designing even a rigid bicycle that handles well is simple physics, try it. Adding suspension compounds an already very complex set of physical problems. Mountain bike suspension design is probably the most complex land vehicle problem there is until the engineering level of Formula 1 or MotoGP racing.

    Here’s more detail about the prior recent use (really lack of use) of science in the design of mountain bikes suspension performance efficiencies.

    Specialized has claims of magic pedaling efficiency from a “vertical” path. (the FSR path is round and only momentarily vertical near sag.)

    Ellsworth claims magical pedaling efficiencies from “a special IC point alignment taken from Formula 1” or some such nonsense. Other than a live-axle drag racer or modified leaf-spring rear suspensions in cars, there is no use of 4-bar trailing-linkage suspension used by cars. Motorcycles have experimented with such, Mert Lawwill modified Harley flat track race bikes with a 4-bar linkage and says he “ran over guys” decelerating and braking into corners with it. BMW uses a 4-bar shaft drive which club racers claims brakes better than the more commonly used monopivot motorcycle suspension.

    Turner says he designs based upon rider feedback. No hype there - this is the best you can do without science.

    There are other brands that hype and claim magical maximum efficiencies, but none other than DW are based upon applying proven science.

    Nearly all bike suspensions are evolved designs. DW took his background in science and engineering and started with a clean computer screen, and invented a revolutionary suspension design. The more efficient performance the dw-Link is a noticeable well balanced improvement over prior designs.

    (Qualifier: this is my opinion in case the reader doesn’t realize yet that every post in MTBR is opinion.)
    I can't take it anymore, you win. Only _dw linked bikes are based on science, the rest are all junk, based on lies and false beliefs. Wait a minute, people did say that Turner is not just a bike but is a religion....

  88. #88
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    If you remove all these opinions slightly from bikes and take it to other subjects like Yacht design. As I am a naval architect this is what I understand, I work with carbon composite structures which can be up to 50 meters long etc etc. I am sure many of you will have heard of the Americas Cup, I use this example as this is the pinnacle of the yachting world where a Cup team will spend somewhere in the region of 100 million euros on a 4 year campaign. Around 30 percent of this will go into RandD and build of the boat. I can tell you there is so much information on why this boat is better than that boat etc etc it is crazy, not only from super computers crunching numbers, but tank testing (placing a scale model in a tank and dragging it through the water to gather data) etc etc.

    So I have two points, sailing like mountain biking is always on different surfaces (yes I realise you cant ride your bike on the sea), one day the sea is flat the next rough, adversely one ride you are braking hard on rocks the next on roots and mud. Even with the millions of dollars spent on research a particular boat design will be better in the flat water than rough, and like wise with the bikes. Even with the millions of dollars on design, the sailors have the final say, some of the design features produce numbers that are very close, but they feel different to the sailors so the one with the best feel gets used. The same with bikes, some people like a firm setup some like it soft, that is the best for them! Take last years F1, the McLaren was better on the tight tracks and Ferraris better on the longer straighter tracks. Hamilton should have won but didn't due to driver/team error!!

    So my real conclusion is nothing mechanical is perfect even when you spend millions of dollars designing it. Yes a particular design will over a series of races or designed tests be better, but there is still human interaction, which throws in another swerve ball. I mean would you buy a Porsche over a Aston Martin because it had slightly better numbers on a piece of paper, no way!!
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  89. #89
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    Just ask NASA

    Quote Originally Posted by GBR1
    So my real conclusion is nothing mechanical is perfect even when you spend millions of dollars designing it. Yes a particular design will over a series of races or designed tests be better, but there is still human interaction, which throws in another swerve ball. I mean would you buy a Porsche over a Aston Martin because it had slightly better numbers on a piece of paper, no way!!
    That's the whole truth right there. Science aside it either works or it don't. There's always another factor that someone didn't see and should have incleded in the calculation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GBR1
    If you remove all these opinions slightly from bikes and take it to other subjects like Yacht design. As I am a naval architect this is what I understand, I work with carbon composite structures which can be up to 50 meters long etc etc. I am sure many of you will have heard of the Americas Cup, I use this example as this is the pinnacle of the yachting world where a Cup team will spend somewhere in the region of 100 million euros on a 4 year campaign. Around 30 percent of this will go into RandD and build of the boat. I can tell you there is so much information on why this boat is better than that boat etc etc it is crazy, not only from super computers crunching numbers, but tank testing (placing a scale model in a tank and dragging it through the water to gather data) etc etc.

    So I have two points, sailing like mountain biking is always on different surfaces (yes I realise you cant ride your bike on the sea), one day the sea is flat the next rough, adversely one ride you are braking hard on rocks the next on roots and mud. Even with the millions of dollars spent on research a particular boat design will be better in the flat water than rough, and like wise with the bikes. Even with the millions of dollars on design, the sailors have the final say, some of the design features produce numbers that are very close, but they feel different to the sailors so the one with the best feel gets used. The same with bikes, some people like a firm setup some like it soft, that is the best for them! Take last years F1, the McLaren was better on the tight tracks and Ferraris better on the longer straighter tracks. Hamilton should have won but didn't due to driver/team error!!

    So my real conclusion is nothing mechanical is perfect even when you spend millions of dollars designing it. Yes a particular design will over a series of races or designed tests be better, but there is still human interaction, which throws in another swerve ball. I mean would you buy a Porsche over a Aston Martin because it had slightly better numbers on a piece of paper, no way!!
    Very good points GBR and well said. Thanks for sharing!

    So in the real world application, you just can't have it ALL (i.e., no single design can be better in all conditions) despite hundreds of millions spent on the design and implementation. In the end, it's all about compromise and human interaction.

    However, as you mentioned, the World Cup Yacht design folks do test of their design (tank testing) to determine if their design actually does what its supposed to do. Perhaps even comparing it with other designs. This comparo data is one factor that should be taken into account if one is to claim his design is superior.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duzitall
    That's the whole truth right there. Science aside it either works or it don't. There's always another factor that someone didn't see and should have incleded in the calculation.
    You may also need to take into account the "assumptions" in the mathematical formulas used in the calculations.
    Last edited by SCUBAPRO; 02-26-2008 at 11:44 AM.
    "The best you've ridden is the best you know" - Paul Thede, Race Tech

  91. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by GBR1
    ... So my real conclusion is nothing mechanical is perfect even when you spend millions of dollars designing it. Yes a particular design will over a series of races or designed tests be better, but there is still human interaction, which throws in another swerve ball. I mean would you buy a Porsche over a Aston Martin because it had slightly better numbers on a piece of paper, no way!!
    Add to that the fact that Larry E. will perceive something different than Bill K. on the same bike. GBR1, I agree.

    Also, empirical data, theoretical data, blah blah blah data, all can be used by the author to favor their design. It comes down to the individual. You shouldn't need the affirmation or justification for your purchase from the forums. That's why the best adivice is to try each bike out.

    So let's get back on topic. My count going thru all posts is:
    1 vote mojo
    1 vote pivot

  92. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by GBR1
    I mean would you buy a Porsche over a Aston Martin because it had slightly better numbers on a piece of paper, no way!!
    Let's ask Derby that question...

  93. #93
    www.derbyrims.com
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    Great points. The trail rider also evolves in what we each want in a bike by what each is accustomed to already and it's conditioned by how we are individually weaker and stronger.

    I'm somewhat climbing challenged. I can climb forever (well for hours) but I'm rather slow climbing compared to others who ride as much as me. I've always looked for improved climbing ease and energy efficiency, plus great handling for the reward of the downhill after a hard earned assent.

    My acute sense of pain and struggle of climbing is what impresses me about the ease of climbing on dw-link bikes. The light weight and easy handling is what narrowed it to the Mojo dw-link over others I've ridden so far. (Although the higher BB of the Pivot Mach-5, and swapping my coil suspension over is looking very tempting - although I imagine the Mach-5 must be at least a pound heavier if it is near as durable as the Mojo has proven.)

  94. #94
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    Wink

    Quote Originally Posted by _dw
    If you really are interested in understanding, take 2 semesters of kinematics and one semester of vector dynamics at the local university, then read Fundamentals of Vehicl Dynamics by Gillespie, and then Tony Foale's motorcycle book. Take the time to understand them. Then it should start to come together for you.

    Most people aren't that motivated though. Its a lot easier to be a naysayer without any education to back it up.
    Well said DW

    I have been studying kinematics of vehicles ( mostly cars) since I was about 15, and I am now 50!
    I have yet to read a single reference in the bicycle industry on forced based anti squat /anti bob analysis..
    For years I used to wonder why roll and pitch centers supposedly changed instantaneously, when a close look at the vehicle in motion, or a sensitive pilot, suggested otherwise
    Even if some arguementative dude runs off and actually studies the field, he or she still does not know what effects to shoot for.

    Good on you for carefully optimising the DW Link for each application!

    Me, I have a Mojo SL on order, replacing an Intense 5.5EVP.
    As long as I pedal on the flat, and uphill, and use my brakes on rough ground, I would never own a bike that did not have most of these behaviours optimised

    Cheers from NZ!

  95. #95
    Neg reppers r my biatches
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    Quote Originally Posted by SCUBAPRO
    Very good points GBR and well said. Thanks for sharing!

    So in the real world application, you just can't have it ALL (i.e., no single design can be better in all conditions) despite hundreds of millions spent on the design and implementation. In the end, it's all about compromise and human interaction.



    You may also need to take into account the "assumptions" in the mathematical formulas used in the calculations.
    whatever, assumptions are ghey, and so is math. pretty much all the engineering mumbo jumbo is a crock and amounts to nothing i am pretty sure. i have said it before, i took a physics class in junior college which was enough for me to figure out that all this math theory and stuff is what results into nothing more than marketing BS

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    Well I am bloody glad you have had nothing at all to do with designing the cars, or bikes that I own.

    Mathematical formulas used to calculate kinematics and forces have nothing in them that a sane person would call an assumption. And a person can actually prove them by building these structures and applying forces to them, and observing the results.

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    whatever, assumptions are ghey, and so is math. pretty much all the engineering mumbo jumbo is a crock and amounts to nothing i am pretty sure. i have said it before, i took a physics class in junior college which was enough for me to figure out that all this math theory and stuff is what results into nothing more than marketing BS
    Wow, Im amazed how you say that physics and math theory is crap. If you say its crap, then I wonder how people design megastructures?
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    Maintenance

    Has anyone compared the ease & cost of replacing new pivot bearings on the Mojo vs the Pivot? In time it will become an issue. I replaced the upper & lower pivots on my Mojo cause I wanted the Red anno. For the cost of the upper & lower pivots + bearings & doing the work myself, I don't think No other FS bike can compare to the design of the Mojo.

  99. #99
    mnt bike laws of physics
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    Quote Originally Posted by FoShizzle
    whatever, assumptions are ghey, and so is math. pretty much all the engineering mumbo jumbo is a crock and amounts to nothing i am pretty sure. i have said it before, i took a physics class in junior college which was enough for me to figure out that all this math theory and stuff is what results into nothing more than marketing BS
    Math is ghey? I'm pretty sure that the marketeers are just as ignorant about math and physics as you claim to be. They just take the mumbo jumbo and turn it into hype.

    Why are people knocking the techno stuff? Because you don't understand it. Let's talk about how I love the ride of this bike and how some other guy doesn't. Personal ride reports are subjective and are one way to get info, but everything we buy is in some way based on physics. We would not be riding bike (especially suspended bikes) without it. If someone is intelligent enough and has the desire to figure out all there is to know about suspension design and then they figure out all the forces that come into play and then are creative enough to come up with a design solution that optimizes the desired outcome, then all else being equal, that bike should be able to maintain momentum better than other bikes that were designed by artists or whoever. And we should all know by now that the art of mountain biking IS about maintaining momentum which is a physics term. Remember the all important physics principle called conservation of momentum.
    I personally live about 4 hours from the closest Ibis/Pivot dealer and if I went down to take a test ride on one of those bike I would have to plop down $80 to take it out(which I would get back if I decided to buy). So some of us don't have the luxury to go arould and test ride the bikes we are interested in to see which one we like. I can analyze forces and decifer the marketing hype, but I am not as smart as dw when it comes to suspension design, so I need a little help to understand some things. Bicycle suspension is a very complex system and it takes many brains to get a complete understanding, so let us geeks have our fun.

    BTW, if you want to come over to southern NM, I can school you in conservation of momentum.

  100. #100
    Neg reppers r my biatches
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    Quote Originally Posted by wheelhot
    Wow, Im amazed how you say that physics and math theory is crap. If you say its crap, then I wonder how people design megastructures?
    megastructures do nothing more than waste space. dont know how much math and stuff is used but as far as i know they are not built my math people but built by guys with hard hats. Believe what you want, nobody is gonna convince me that math is anything more than some dumb class we all had to take

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