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  1. #1
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    Mojo in a comparison test on the German Bike magazine

    The latest issue (01/2008) of the German Bike magazine arrived today. The magazine included a comparison test which included Ibis Mojo.

    The bikes tested were mostly German brands but the there were others too. Most bikes had approx. 120 mm of travel in the rear so the Mojo had a little bit longer travel than the others in the test.

    The tested bikes and their total point scores were:

    Specialized Stumpjumper Pro 125,75 (Super)
    Scott Genius MC 10 125,25 (Super)
    Ghost AMR Lector 9500 122,25 (Very Good)
    Felt Virtue Team 118,25 (Very Good)
    Rotwild R.GT2 Pro 116,75 (Very Good)
    Trek Fuel EX 9.5 117 (Very Good)
    Simplon Lexx Tra 116,25 (Very Good)
    Canyon Spectral 114,75 (Very Good)
    Gary Fisher Hifi Carbon Pro 113,25 (Very Good)
    Ibis Mojo (with XT parts) 109,5 (Good)

    The magazine also gives separate scores for the frame only and the Mojo was third from the last on this comparison.

    The actual weight of the Mojo (19") was 11.75 kg without pedals. The weight of the frame and shock was 2,653 g.

    In conclusion the magazine said that the Mojo is the individual choice. They say that the suspension works very well but the biggest weakness is the low stiffness of the frame. They measure the stiffness in two measurements ("bottom bracket stiffness" and "head tube stiffness") and the Mojo was by far the weakest. They mention that it is good for the flowing Californian trails but the lack of stiffness is more evident in the rocky European trails.


    The Mojo is one option when the time comes to replace my current ride (Rocky Mountain ETSX-Team) and one thing that worries me the most with the Mojo is this alleged stiffness problem. I have no chance to test ride the Mojo since there is no importer here in Finland so I have to rely on written reports and other people's experiences.

    I've read the recent heated discussion in relation to the stiffness of the rear end of the Mojo in this forum and I don't want to star another flame war. However I would really like hear more of the people's opinions in relation the stiffness of the frame.

    -Most owners seems to be happy with the stiffness but are there actual owners who feel that the frame is not very good in that respect?
    - Are there owners who usually ride in singletracks in conditions with lots of small rocks and roots? Can you notice the flex in these conditions?
    Pertti
    Lahti, Finland
    MC Kramppi

  2. #2
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    Well, that's disappointing, given that my SL is expected here next week. Have any of the US mags had the Mojo in any comparison tests? My wife rides a HIFi Pro, and that finished above the Mojo.

  3. #3
    Mojo0115
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    Quote Originally Posted by daryder
    Well, that's disappointing, given that my SL is expected here next week. Have any of the US mags had the Mojo in any comparison tests? My wife rides a HIFi Pro, and that finished above the Mojo.
    You can read lots of comparison tests on the Ibis site: http://www.ibiscycles.com/mountain/mojo/press/

    All the reviews I have read are glowing comparisons but I don't think I have read one that did specific measurement tests on flex.

    I know that for me as I ride my mojo in the colorado rockies and moab I don't notice flex issues - but I don't have a great point of comparison having never spent time on some of the acknowledged "inflexibles" out there. Bikes are about compromise, but the mojo seems the closest to perfection available.

  4. #4
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    The articles on the Ibis site are certainly glowing, but I didn't see any that are actually comparison tests. I'll check again. I'd sure like to read a translation of the German article. It sounds like they might have have put too much emphasis on flex-testing and not enough on how the bikes actually ride. Hard to tell, though, without the article. Not to mention that I wouldn't be able to read it. Can you help us out, Portti? Thanks.

  5. #5
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    Hi-Fi Pro

    What Mountain Bike recently reviewed the Hi-Fi Pro and came to the conclusion that it was one of the least stiff, most flexible frames they've ever ridden. They specifically mentioned an incident where they managed to get the chain to "ghost shift" across the cassette due to frame flex when hammering the bike hard. They said it was fast handling and light-weight, with somewhat twitchy handling, but gave it the thumbs up overall.

    I've not ridden the Hi-Fi Pro, but the Mojo felt plenty stiff on my test ride. I'm going to be waiting a while longer for my Mojo SL, at which point I'll be happy to provide you with a more complete analysis :-)

    - Matt

  6. #6
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    zzsean:

    Thanks for the feedback.

    daryder:

    I wouldn't worry too much about the test on the Bike magazine. I think that most likely the Mojo is a great bike and you'll love it.

    The article doesn't overemphasize the flex issue and it is just one of the many areas which they test. It's just something the Mojo was not very good at and that's why I would like hear actual owner's opinions on the matter.

    I think that I will not try to translate the article since it is very long and thorough and my German is far from perfect. One interesting thing on this test was that they have developed a new way of measuring the efficiency of the bike/suspension. They give points for "Wippen" (bobbing/anti-squat?) and "Pedalrückschlag" (pedal kick-back?) on each of the three front chainrings. The Mojo was very good on "Wippen" but not among the best in the "Pedalrückschlag".

    In my opinion the Bike magazine is one of the best mtb magazines since they are very informative and they do a lot of comparison tests on bikes and components. They complement the practical tests with measurements on the laboratory on their articles.
    Pertti
    Lahti, Finland
    MC Kramppi

  7. #7
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    [QUOTE=mattwatkins]What Mountain Bike recently reviewed the Hi-Fi Pro and came to the conclusion that it was one of the least stiff, most flexible frames they've ever ridden. /QUOTE]

    Also on the Bike magazine the Hi-Fi was second from the bottom on the stiffness tests.

    The stiffness to weight ratios on the tested bikes were (the absolute stiffness in brackets) (bigger number is better):

    Canyon 35,6 (91,7)
    Ghost 27,4 (70)
    Scott 26,8 (67,7)
    Specialized 25,4 (67,4)
    Simplon 24,6 (68,7)
    Rotwild 24,6 (58,8)
    Felt 23,4 (68)
    Trek 22,1 (58,7)
    Gary Fisher 20,6 (44,9)
    Ibis 16,3 (43,2)
    Pertti
    Lahti, Finland
    MC Kramppi

  8. #8
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    Smile

    germans are still mad about the war. mojo is the best bike I have ever ridden. My 1995 ellsworth absolute truth in its day was great also.
    .
    Mitch
    Boise
    nice snow rides lately

  9. #9
    Mojo0115
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbmitch2
    germans are still mad about the war....
    heh, yeah... this is a stupid statement.

  10. #10
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    I see by the choices for "Very Good" the testers like suspensions that need very firm shock response to pedal OK but then produce a rather harsh and spiky ride in bumps.

    They probably set up the Mojo suspension as firm and shallow travel as those old-school monopivot types like.

    The Mojo is far from that, the Mojo is much more bump compliant and can still be pedaled with the highest efficiency and is easier to pedal and corner on bumpy trails than stiffly suspended bikes.

    The stiff suspensions just feel faster due to harsher feedback.

  11. #11
    The Ancient One
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    Just as I suspected: too much Pedalruckschlag. And it was designed by a toy designer. And a girl to boot.
    "Don't criticize what you can't understand."

  12. #12
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    Cool-blue Rhythm Beauty is in the eye of the beholder

    Interesting that they ranked the Specialzed in top place overall... The British "What Mountain Bike" Magazine have not given the very latest Specialized (S-Works Stumpjumper FSR) a very good initial write up, but seem to be prepared to give it a second chance. Apart from the fact that the own brand shock seized up during riding (locking the rear suspension out) they didn't seem to like the low bottom bracket height, claiming that it might have a problem with the pedals striking rocks. It wasn't a complete review, however.

    I suppose this just goes to show; much of beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

    Shame you can't arrange a test ride. Thought about taking a holiday and stopping off at a bike shop somewhere? When you're spending a large amount of your income on a bike, it might be worth the price of a plane ticket to spend some quality time with a few contenders before making your decision?

    - Matt

  13. #13
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    I cant believe that the HiFi is stiffer then the Mojo. Im sure they made a mistake. Yeah, I heard bout people say the Mojo rear end is not stiff, but usually its not noticeable. Maybe if you are a heavy rider, you should call Ibis and see what they can do for you.
    07 Giant Anthem 2 (Int'l Edition) | omartan.co.cc
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  14. #14
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    the ibis is way stiffer than my 05 truth. had to get used to snaking through rocks in a
    different way. You don't want a bike to stiff. In 1997 Honda changed to an aluminum
    frame that was way to stiff. the pros were getting thrown off the bikes a whole lot more.
    after 4 frame changes in 8 years, they finally got it right.
    Mitch

  15. #15
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    A real engineer

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve from JH
    Just as I suspected: too much Pedalruckschlag. And it was designed by a toy designer. And a girl to boot.
    Too bad it wasn't designed by a sales manager. It would be much stiffer.
    [size=4]Don[/size]

  16. #16
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    A laboratory bench test is a very German way of testing.

    Also, judging products by results that do not reflect in real life use is very typical for this particular magazine.

    I believe the results are true, but I couldn't care less about them if the Mojo still rides better in real life than a Stumpjumper that was scored über-super. ( And that's what every other bike mag is saying )

  17. #17
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    Okay, here is a question bout stiffness. Aint a stiffer bike would get cracked up more easily then a less stiff bike? So I guess eventhough the Mojo is less stiff then the HiFi but a rider wont notice the flex, does it mean this is a good balance of stiffness to durability?
    07 Giant Anthem 2 (Int'l Edition) | omartan.co.cc
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  18. #18
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    I would never even mention a Gary Fisher and an Ibis in the same breath, let alone compare them to eachother. It's like comparing apples to hemmorroids!
    Who cares what the German rags say! I knowe my Mojo handles better than a Stumpy for sure, because I have ridden both bikes, and I ride with a Stumpy owner all the time. He hates the chainsuck and his Specialized shock blew on him during the very last dirt ride up here this year, cutting our day short! Pissed me off too! Snowed the next day.
    And believe me when I say I don't slam Specialized. I own a Bart Brentjens Limited editionS-works M2 HT and it's my winter bike. And I love it

  19. #19
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    Thanks for the replys everybody. Here are some comments.

    derby

    The suspension on the Mojo was rated highly so the magazine did not see problems there. The bike category tested was "all-mountain light" and other bikes were equipped with slightly shorter suspension travel. Also the test criteria was designed for slightly shorter travel bikes.

    mattwatkins

    They did rate Specialized highly in this test. However the same issue of Bike had an article on some long term test bikes and Spezialized Enduro SL scored only 6 points (scale 1-10) which was the worst score on the article. The Specialized's own fork had broken 5 times and the rear shock once during the long term test.

    plussa

    The laboratory test on the Bike magazine can be over the top sometimes. However many times they do very interesting laboratory tests and they back up the lab tests with practical tests so it's a good mix of practice and theory.

    Bike and the German Mountain Bike are very good magazines in my opinion and by far more informative than any of the US magazines I've read. What MTB and especially the Mountain Bike Rider from the UK are also quite good magazines but I rate the Germans highly.


    Wheelhot:

    Based on the measurements the flexibility on the Mojo is way above the level where the flex should be noticable. My current bike is a Rocky Mountain ETSX-Team and every time an ETSX has been tested on either of the main German mtb-magazines (Bike and Mountain Bike) it has been among the most flexible bikes. I'm 77 kg and I do notice the flex in some circumstances but it doesn't bother me too much.

    According to the measurements the Mojo is even more flexible than ETSX so it should NOT be a very good compromise between stiffness and durability.

    However it seems like most owners don't notice any flex on the Mojo so I guess it is alright in this respect.



    Overall the Mojo missed the Very Good mark by only 0.5 points. Mojo scored bad points on the flexibility, warranty and missing bottle holder.

    Like I mentioned earlier the flex issue is the only thing that concern me based on this comparison test. I don't care about missing bottle holder and the three year warranty is a non-issue for me since it seems like the Mojo is durable and the customer service of the company is excellent.

    For those who are interested here are all of the scores for Mojo on the test. The scale is 1-6 and each test criteria are weighed (they weight is in brackets as well as the original German term):

    Uphill
    Geometry/handling (2) (Geometrie/Handling) 5 pts
    Suspension rear (1) (Federung hinten) 5 pts
    Suspension front (1) (Federung vorne) 5 pts
    Tyres (1) (Reifen) 4,5 pts
    Bottle holder (1) (Flaschenhalter) 1 pts
    Weight (2) (Gewicht) 5 pts
    Efficiency (2) (Effizienz) 4 pts
    Total uphill 43,5 pts

    Downhill
    Geometry/handling (2,5) (Geometrie/Handling) 4 pts
    Suspension rear (1,5) (Federung hinten) 5 pts
    Suspension front (1,5) (Federung vorne) 5 pts
    Ability to lower saddle (1)(Versenkbarkeit sattel) 6 pts
    Brakes (1,5) (Bremsen) 5 pts
    Tyres (1) (Reifen) 4,5 pts
    Stiffness (1) (Stefigheit) 1 pts
    Total downhill 44 pts

    Other
    Component selection (2) (Zusammenstellung Komponenten) 5 pts
    Optical things (1) (Optischer Eindruck) 5,5 pts
    Paint quality (1) (Lackqualität) 6 pts
    Warranty (1) (Garantie) 1 pts
    Total other 22

    Total (max 160) 109,5
    Pertti
    Lahti, Finland
    MC Kramppi

  20. #20
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    Wink

    One of the key benefits of composite materials, such as carbon fibre, is that they give designers and engineers the ability to put strength and stiffness in the places where they are needed. I have no doubt that in practice, this takes plenty of skill and an intimate knowledge of the material to achieve... Personally, I trust that the folk at Ibis know what they are doing. I have no idea how these tests were conducted, but I wouldn't be surprised if they don't translate into a particularly useful "real world" metric of the frame's behaviour and performance while riding. As somebody has already pointed out in this thread, this is a stereotypically teutonic approach to testing.

  21. #21
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    Thanks, Portti. I appreciate you passing this info along.

  22. #22
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    Flexy metal bikes are springy and reduces traction in corners. Flexy carbon fiber is damped and allow faster cornering with greater traction. There is no pedaling advantage to stiffer frames, only imagined.

    The sideways cornering flex in carbon fiber "issue" is the same as riders coming from hardtail to suspension thinking suspension is slower in climbing performance because it doesn't feel as firm.

    A flexy metal bike does have directional cornering issues due to being bouncy when leaned over.

    The mild flex in the Mojo is damped with no cornering side bounce, a performance advantage.
    Last edited by derby; 12-14-2007 at 01:30 PM.

  23. #23
    Elitest thrill junkie
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    Quote Originally Posted by derby
    Flexy metal bikes are springy and reduces traction in corners. Flexy carbon fiber is damped and allow faster cornering with greater traction. There is no pedaling advantage to stiffer frames, only imagined.

    The sideways cornering flex in carbon fiber "issue" is the same as riders coming from hardtail to suspension thinking suspension is slower in climbing performance because it doesn't feel as firm.

    A flexy metal bike does have directional cornering issues due to being bouncy when leaned over.

    The mild flex in the Mojo is damped with no cornering side bounce, a performance advantage.
    Come on now, you have a pretty good reputation. You're just making stuff up here. You know full well that excessive flex will induce binding, ill handling in the corners, and so on, and just because it's carbon fiber doesn't mean it's "damped". The new corvette Z06 has carbon fiber leaf springs. And because it's "damped" are you telling me that it doesn't need shock absorbers? You can do better than this.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    Come on now, you have a pretty good reputation. You're just making stuff up here. You know full well that excessive flex will induce binding, ill handling in the corners, and so on, and just because it's carbon fiber doesn't mean it's "damped". The new corvette Z06 has carbon fiber leaf springs. And because it's "damped" are you telling me that it doesn't need shock absorbers? You can do better than this.
    Well the Mojo doesn’t have a lot of side flex in the first place. It is less than twice as much rear stay twist using the same efforts pulling and pushing the top of the rear wheel vs. the seat post compared to a walking-beam type new Turner Flux, Spot, or Trek Fuel (all the same in stiffness) I checked out in a LBS next to my now 1.5 year old Mojo. And no more than most 5 inch travel bikes when pushing the crankarm BB sideways with my foot. So there's not really a flex issue with the Mojo in the first place - except to a few nitwits who need sharp and spiky feedback.

    Since there is so little flex there would be no way to effect of some kind of additional damping beside the natural molecular level damping character of carbon fiber.

    So I stand by my theory that a little more side flex with naturally damping carbon fiber is better than less flex with springy metal.

    Corvettes still use a leaf spring across the rear? It was fiberglass 10 years ago. Nice falling rate design (not!) Anyone taking them to the track replaces with coilover.

    Glad to see you are interested in the Mojo, Jayem. It's a pretty amazing and versatile ride, especially with Push'd coil front and rear now. I demoed a 6Point at Interbike, it's got more pedal clearance and slacker handling, maybe more in line with your guys rides, same weight as a Nomad it pedals just as smooth and efficiently as the Mojo but even more plush. I couldn't make it to AZ this year. Hopefully next spring or fall.

  25. #25
    Elitest thrill junkie
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    Quote Originally Posted by derby
    Well the Mojo doesn’t have a lot of side flex in the first place. It is less than twice as much rear stay twist using the same efforts pulling and pushing the top of the rear wheel vs. the seat post compared to a walking-beam type new Turner Flux, Spot, or Trek Fuel (all the same in stiffness) I checked out in a LBS next to my now 1.5 year old Mojo. And no more than most 5 inch travel bikes when pushing the crankarm BB sideways with my foot. So there's not really a flex issue with the Mojo in the first place - except to a few nitwits who need sharp and spiky feedback.

    Since there is so little flex there would be no way to effect of some kind of additional damping beside the natural molecular level damping character of carbon fiber.

    So I stand by my theory that a little more side flex with naturally damping carbon fiber is better than less flex with springy metal.

    Corvettes still use a leaf spring across the rear? It was fiberglass 10 years ago. Nice falling rate design (not!) Anyone taking them to the track replaces with coilover.

    Glad to see you are interested in the Mojo, Jayem. It's a pretty amazing and versatile ride, especially with Push'd coil front and rear now. I demoed a 6Point at Interbike, it's got more pedal clearance and slacker handling, maybe more in line with your guys rides, same weight as a Nomad it pedals just as smooth and efficiently as the Mojo but even more plush. I couldn't make it to AZ this year. Hopefully next spring or fall.
    Come on now, people don't replace the springs on the Z06 as soon a they track it, because it basically eats everything else, even lots of highly modified cars. It's pretty amazing performance for the $.

    In any case, your theory is unfounted, you could say the same about any material that flexes, because you'll NEVER get 100% of the energy back, and then EVERY material is "damped" basically. That's what your saying, and it's pretty rediculous.

    In any case, lateral stiffness is very important, I've been on plenty of bikes where the rear suspension tended to bind more and the bike deflected as the suspension didn't do a very good job of absorbing in the direction that it was supposed to. I've ridden my foes quite a bit and I've ridden lots of other bikes. Lots of bikes even feel pretty stiff out of the box, but give them a year for their bearings to wear down and they get to feel pretty sloppy.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

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