Results 1 to 23 of 23
  1. #1
    Wzl
    Wzl is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    493

    Mojo or Cinclon?

    Hey all -

    Been thinking about a Mojo but I am beginning to wonder. I have two Ventana mountain bikes and both are great bikes. I wonder how a Mojo would compare? I see someone named Tom from Ibis posts here so what say you? Sell me on a Mojo.

    Here are my thoughts so far.

    1. Looks sweet! Dig the name. Love the colors.

    2. 5.7 pounds is pretty light but only remains so if you spec it with a bunch of weight weenie parts. I currently ride a 28 pound El Saltamontes for the above treeline trails in Colorado and I'm thinking a 25-26 pound AM rig could be a pretty fun alternative. I stick to my La Bruja (36 pound pig with 6" front and rear) for the more aggressive riding that I enjoy as well. So I guess weight is not all that important; it is a solid pair of wheels and a good stiff fork that really matters, no?

    3. Sounds like this frame is scratch/ding prone. What is this, a surf board? My Ventanas are bullet proof and after 4+ years of hard nasty trails they still look great. Dirt washes off just fine. Do the painted Mojo's fend off scratching any better than the naked ones do?

    4. What is the max rear tire size on the Mojo? I like the Special Ed 2bliss tires a bunch and the Maxxis Highrollers are pretty nice too. The last two conti's I tried had ripped casings after two rides each. Conti's just don't hold up to NM single track. (I suppose I am commenting on the fact that on the build thread I noticed several people spec'd Conti's.)

    5. Do you really have to wait months for a bike not made in the states? And where does Ibis get off charging US made prices for a non US made frame? I'd like ask Maverick the same question. Chris King and Ventana can manufacture here in the States. Why does Ibis choose Taiwan? Heck, Ventanas are made in Northern California and it doesn't get much more expensive than that.

    6. On the Ibis website I am pretty sure I read that someone put 1700+ hours of CAD/Pro E design time into the Mojo frame. That's almost a full man-year of time! Com'on now people, it cannot possibly take a full year to design a single mountain bike frame. That would put any engineering firm out of business. (1700+ hours of saddle time I could understand.)

    I like nice bikes. You like nice bikes. Give me some good reasons why my next rig should be an Ibis Mojo instead of another Ventana. (I need more than a picture of a fancy Mojo leaning against some rich dudes beamer.) How about a test ride program? Send me a bike for a week like Ventana does.

    Flame away,

    Wzl

  2. #2
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    16
    If you mean the El Ciclon, the Mojo looks a lot cooler, but the Ventana's paint will probably hold up better, so I'd go with the nicer paint.
    Last edited by sdold; 07-07-2007 at 11:40 PM.

  3. #3
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    1,252
    Hans from Ibis posting...

    You should ride them both and buy the one you like the best. Ventanas are really nice bikes and there is NO WAY I'd ever say anything bad about them. I'll comment on your questions below. Also, There is a lot of info on the Ibis site and the DW site if you want to read up on things. Also check the MTBR reviews etc..


    Quote Originally Posted by Wzl
    Hey all -

    Been thinking about a Mojo but I am beginning to wonder. I have two Ventana mountain bikes and both are great bikes. I wonder how a Mojo would compare? I see someone named Tom from Ibis posts here so what say you? Sell me on a Mojo.

    Here are my thoughts so far.

    1. Looks sweet! Dig the name. Love the colors.

    2. 5.7 pounds is pretty light but only remains so if you spec it with a bunch of weight weenie parts. I currently ride a 28 pound El Saltamontes for the above treeline trails in Colorado and I'm thinking a 25-26 pound AM rig could be a pretty fun alternative. I stick to my La Bruja (36 pound pig with 6" front and rear) for the more aggressive riding that I enjoy as well. So I guess weight is not all that important; it is a solid pair of wheels and a good stiff fork that really matters, no?

    I think you are right that the weight does not really matter that much, especially if you give up something to make your bike lightweight. My current Test Mojo weighs 22.4 lbs with pedals and really hauls A$$, BUT... The tires will get a little heavier in the next few weeks in the interest of the best possible all around performance. Agreed that a good set of wheels and fork will be the ticket and are more important to the ride than all the other parts.

    3. Sounds like this frame is scratch/ding prone. What is this, a surf board? My Ventanas are bullet proof and after 4+ years of hard nasty trails they still look great. Dirt washes off just fine. Do the painted Mojo's fend off scratching any better than the naked ones do?

    Ha! No dings. The paint will scratch of course. Powdercoat will also scratch, but it normally sticks very well and resists chipping. Ventanas are powder coated and when done right powder coating is really tough. Carbon fiber would not like being exposed to the temperatures needed for powder coating, so we paint them either clear or one of 4 colors. They are about the same in paint durability as other carbon fiber bikes (non powder coat) finishes. Our demo bikes still look good after a thrashing.

    4. What is the max rear tire size on the Mojo? I like the Special Ed 2bliss tires a bunch and the Maxxis Highrollers are pretty nice too. The last two conti's I tried had ripped casings after two rides each. Conti's just don't hold up to NM single track. (I suppose I am commenting on the fact that on the build thread I noticed several people spec'd Conti's.)

    2.4 - 2.5"

    5. Do you really have to wait months for a bike not made in the states? And where does Ibis get off charging US made prices for a non US made frame? I'd like ask Maverick the same question. Chris King and Ventana can manufacture here in the States. Why does Ibis choose Taiwan? Heck, Ventanas are made in Northern California and it doesn't get much more expensive than that.


    The wait depends on the size, color and who might already have one in stock.. (Some of our dealers have them in stock) I think the worst case is September on new orders for clear large, best case it ships the same day.

    Regarding pricing...
    The tooling and development cost alone (without manufacturing and materials costs) could command that retail price, so it's actually a screaming deal ...
    Our frame is deliberately priced lower than any comparable frame as we didn't want to price the frame just for rich guys. The Mojo is priced so we would buy it ourselves if we were shopping. All of us tend to fall into the "best bang for the buck, but still high end" type of shopper. I still think $1899 is a lot of money, but it sure sounds better than $2900 when explaining your purchase to your wife or riding buddies

    A little story about one part of the frame:
    When we shopped the lower link fabrication in the US the quotes ranged from $60 each to "it can't be made". Basically, no takers. We now get them made at the same factory that makes the cases for Apple laptops and Ipods among other things. Hi quality and competitive pricing. We have a full model and machine shop at our disposal next door, but we have a high tech forging house in Taiwan that makes it possible to bring something like this to market. We do the prototypes here and production there.

    Look at a Mojo frame, keeping in mind that it is a one piece hollow structure. It is probably the most difficult composite bicycle frame ever made. We are fortunate to be working with a factory that can pull it off. It is in Shen Zhen China. If it could be in the US, that would have been great, but I don't think we would have sold many frames since we would expect the price to be 2 - 3 times higher.


    6. On the Ibis website I am pretty sure I read that someone put 1700+ hours of CAD/Pro E design time into the Mojo frame. That's almost a full man-year of time! Com'on now people, it cannot possibly take a full year to design a single mountain bike frame. That would put any engineering firm out of business. (1700+ hours of saddle time I could understand.)

    It actually turned out to be 1900 hours (not including Roxy's 2d design time and 3d foam sculpting and hundreds of hours of my time sitting in during that CAD time).

    There was about 7500 miles on the oldest prototype before we shipped the first production frame. It was a crazy amount of work and money to put into a bicycle frame, but we set out to leapfrog over what had been done in the past and we had to pay our dues. For instance, we put 2 months into the chainstays and chainstay bridge around the tire. It was hard to make the desired shortish CS length and large tire clearance all fit together around the linkage, chain and front derailleur whilst moving up and down through the travel. There's so much more, but you'll have to use your imagination, this post is getting long already..

    Usually only a large bike company would do something like this. Bringing Ibis back into the market, we felt we needed to do a cannonball into the pool, not wade in on the shallow end... At this point in time it looks like it was the right thing to do. It was also good timing for Ibis that composite manufacturing technology was getting to the point where something like this was possible.


    I like nice bikes. You like nice bikes. Give me some good reasons why my next rig should be an Ibis Mojo instead of another Ventana. (I need more than a picture of a fancy Mojo leaning against some rich dudes beamer.) How about a test ride program? Send me a bike for a week like Ventana does.

    Have your favorite dealer call us, test rides are really the way to go, Cheers! Hans

    Flame away,

    Wzl

  4. #4
    Wzl
    Wzl is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    493
    Thanks for the gracious response Hans. I will call Stevie down at Fat Tire Cycles, wake him up (I have his cell #) and tell him to get me a test rig pronto so I can go abuse it some.

    I have two more questions.

    1. The 73 degree seat tube angle seems quite steep. Does one need a laid back seat post to get your knees properly positioned with respect to the crank? I am coming off a bike with a 71.3 degree seat tube angle. Can you explain how this affects ride characteristics?

    2. I like the idea of the relatively short wheelbase and chainstay length because to me this means quick and responsive. However, does this make for an overly twitchy ride? Does the short wheelbase afect stability at speed? My El Saltamontes is a full 1.1 inches longer and it's pretty darn flippy.

    I suppose these questions will be answered by a test ride.

    Would it be safe to assume a medium sized frame would be readily available?

  5. #5
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    498
    Quote Originally Posted by hanssc
    Hans from Ibis posting...

    You should ride them both and buy the one you like the best. Ventanas are really nice bikes and there is NO WAY I'd ever say anything bad about them. I'll comment on your questions below. Also, There is a lot of info on the Ibis site and the DW site if you want to read up on things. Also check the MTBR reviews etc..

    ...It actually turned out to be 1900 hours (not including Roxy's 2d design time and 3d foam sculpting and hundreds of hours of my time sitting in during that CAD time).

    There was about 7500 miles on the oldest prototype before we shipped the first production frame. It was a crazy amount of work and money to put into a bicycle frame, but we set out to leapfrog over what had been done in the past and we had to pay our dues. For instance, we put 2 months into the chainstays and chainstay bridge around the tire. It was hard to make the desired shortish CS length and large tire clearance all fit together around the linkage, chain and front derailleur whilst moving up and down through the travel. There's so much more, but you'll have to use your imagination, this post is getting long already..

    Hans,

    Thanks for taking the time to design a really nice bike. To support your asssertion as to time, here are my experiences with bicycle design:

    As an experiment, I started to design an improved Iron Horse Azure, suitible for a high end custom bike house like Calfee. Improvements desired were: better torsional stiffness when sprinting, lighter weight, cleaner appearance (particularly the seatpost strut), easier fabrication in many different sizes, more water bottle space and significantly faster than a Racer-X. Also,I was unhappy with the bottombracket height at the time because the shock was stuck down.

    Where it ended up before discovering the the stuck down shock was:

    1) A carbon module that captures all the suspension and bottom bracket pivot geometry,... shock mount a lot like the Sunday's [the suspension defining module fits in a somewhat affordable 2'x2' tool] . It could be clam shells or since it is so small it could be a real tooled part like the 2008 TREK carbon road bike construction.

    2) A braze on Front Deraileur to eliminate the need for a seat tube/stub

    3) Press fit BB cups to get rid of some inserts and the threading.

    As soon as you make the shock not line up with the seat stay the loads on the upper pivot rocker arm get higher and you gain weight. For custom bike flexibility in the rest of the frame, different appearance, and a water bottle space, it would be worth it to some people.

    It was a carbon Sunday suspension module at the center of an XC race bike.

    All the other tubes could be aluminum, but then folks don't fall in love with multi-material bikes so much. Hadn't seen the Trek stuff at the time - there might be an attractive bike yet in this direction... from one skilled in the art. Hint.

    Then the shock came back from Fox and the BB height worked.

    Had not really started on the rear triangle but could tell it would be even more work.

    The Mojo is good work at a good price, and yes, it took that long.

  6. #6
    flow where ever you go
    Reputation: noshortcuts's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    1,509

    The numbers can't explain the magic

    Balanced, plush, responsive, fun, durable, beautiful...

    To ride is to believe.

    "I must not be crazy because I'm seriously questioning my sanity"

  7. #7
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    2,501
    I think for the price you are paying on the Mojo comparing to Cinclon, I believe the Mojo is a better bang for the buck. And you will have a unique frame design that not many people will have around your area. And it is carbon for 1.8k, how much is a Epiphany again? 2k for a alu bike. And carbon has a lot of benefit comparing to aluminium bikes.

  8. #8
    www.derbyrims.com
    Reputation: derby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    6,788
    Quote Originally Posted by Wzl
    Thanks for the gracious response Hans. I will call Stevie down at Fat Tire Cycles, wake him up (I have his cell #) and tell him to get me a test rig pronto so I can go abuse it some.

    I have two more questions.

    1. The 73 degree seat tube angle seems quite steep. Does one need a laid back seat post to get your knees properly positioned with respect to the crank? I am coming off a bike with a 71.3 degree seat tube angle. Can you explain how this affects ride characteristics?

    2. I like the idea of the relatively short wheelbase and chainstay length because to me this means quick and responsive. However, does this make for an overly twitchy ride? Does the short wheelbase afect stability at speed? My El Saltamontes is a full 1.1 inches longer and it's pretty darn flippy.

    I suppose these questions will be answered by a test ride.

    Would it be safe to assume a medium sized frame would be readily available?
    Yes, a demo ride on your favorite trail would answer your questions.

    I see Hans answered your post about 3AM NorCali time (after a long night ride Im guessing!). So hes probably sleeping in this morning.

    The 73 degree seat post is most common for XC race design bikes for maximum climbing and pedaling efficiency for a normal dimensioned rider. A rider with unusually long upper legs can use a lay back seat post to gain more forward reach. The Mojo makes a great XC race bike, potentially competitive at the pro-elite class (if not already by someone).

    The Mojo is also strong enough and has travel deep enough for very rough trail riding. A laid back seat post could be used by a normal dimension rider to aid quicker tight trail step-ups, maneuvering, and handling, at the sacrifice of the more efficient climbing and pedaling of the 73 degree balance.

    The XC-racer like 16.75 inch seat stay length is actual a little longer at sag, but still short enough to maneuver quickly on tight trails with the pedaling-efficiency oriented 73 degree seat.

    The 69 degree steer angle with 140mm fork keeps the handling stable at speed and reduces brake dive compared to a steeper angle. Mojos can be ridden with better stability and efficiency using a shorter top tube than common.

    The Mojo design is remarkably unique in the market today for versatility in uses. It is the closest to one bike does all without any compromises.

  9. #9
    Mojo0115
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    1,667
    Wzl,

    I ride my Mojo above the treeline in Colorado most weekends and absolutely love it on that terrain. On the 4th of July it was on Searle Pass, for the weekends around and after memorial day it was riding the trails of Crested Butte. Over the winter it was in Moab and just this past Saturday I rode Keystone to try it out on the Super-D course that was used for the G3 series on the prior weekend.

    I haven't built mine super light because I want it to be able to do (most) everything that Colorado has to offer so I run it with a Coil shock (that one day I will switch to a Ti spring), a 6" front fork (pace fighter rc41) and beefy tires.

    I put the plastic tape you can read about in other threads over my naked carbon Mojo and despite crashes in moab and thrown up rocks from the fast lose descents in the mountains the frame is in great condition without any chips or scratches beyond the plastic tape.

    See if you can get one out to demo, but I couldn't be happier with my mojo for the conditions we have in Colorado.

  10. #10
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    32

    Carbon durability vrs ...

    In a former life, back in "the day" I was a framebuilder (Tango Tandems).
    I am/was a fan of steel and titanium and never guessed I would be riding a Carbon composite bike.
    I have been riding a Carbon Mojo for the last 6 months and loving it.
    I have been riding with a guy I will call "Jon" (to protect his identity) smash his Mojo multiple times into rocks that would have dented steel or aluminum frames.
    His Mojo lost a bit of clear coat, but no structural damage.
    That really convinced me of the durability and strength of the bikes.
    The boys at Ibis really did their homework and produced a bike that I am proud to own and ride.
    Rick

  11. #11
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    81
    ZZSEAN

    I miss Keystone a lot (by far my favorite park)
    I rode Snowmass Nationals on 2005 (DH) and
    fell in love with Keystone.

    Wish I lived closer to Keystone.....

    Now if I could finally decide between the Mojo, FXR 2:1 & MKIII.
    really hard to make up my mind........

    later,
    Charles

  12. #12
    Wzl
    Wzl is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    493
    Wow! People on the Ibis board are so gracious, polite, and full of useful information, unlike most every other board I've posted on. I had quit using mtbr all together for about a year now because I got so tired of all the numskulls (sp?) who jack posts and spew crap. Anyway.....

    Talked with my LBS late Sunday about a test ride. They have several frames hanging in the shop and a test rig almost ready to roll but they had just sold the cranks off the thing. I am scheduled to pick up the test bike today at lunch so I should be in the grove by the cooler hours of this evening. Can't wait. Fondling a blue Mojo frame in the shop was pretty fun.

    How is one to ever decide on how to spec such a bike? And the fun begins....

  13. #13
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    2,501
    LONG LIVE IBIS MOJO!!!!!. Anyway the Blue Mojo frame and green look really addictive on the pics.

  14. #14
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Irrenarzt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Posts
    853
    My boss has an El Ciclon and I have a Mojo. Even he admits he likes my Mojo better as I let him ride it. Pretty simple actually.

  15. #15
    Wzl
    Wzl is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    493
    I picked up a test rig yesterday and got it set up last night. I took it for a quick spin around my back yard trail (yes, my back yard is National Forest) and I will go for a real ride tonight. So far my opinion is that this is a very forgiving ride. The bike feels well balanced and mild manered. So far so good and despite some of the low end parts and nearly 30 pound build the bike is lively.

    HOWEVER, cabling seems off on this particular build. This bike has zip ties holding the cables in place at either end of the top tube just to the outside of the cable stops. This cannot really be necessary. The big annoyance is that the section of housing running from the top tube to the seat stay pushes out under normal riding loads brushing against my calf. Is this section of housing too long? What is the proper length of housing for this section on a medium sized frame? Some things one can get used to but please tell me there is a remedy for this.

  16. #16
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    1,252

    cable rub

    Hello forum!
    Most people run a zip tie or velcro around the casings on the way down to the seat stays from the top tube to keep them from bowing out under sompression (and rubbing your calves)
    If the casing is cut as short as possible, that helps to minimise the bowing and some bikes don't bow out even without any "restraint".
    It is annoying to have them stick out and it does not have to be that way, it can be resolved without much effort.
    Take care,
    Hans

  17. #17
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Irrenarzt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Posts
    853
    Housing is simply too long. I minimized the lengths of both sides of cable and I have no calf rubbage whatsoever.

  18. #18
    Wzl
    Wzl is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    493
    Test ride was a blast! I know I am preaching to the choir here but the Mojo is a freakin rocket. I would hate to race against someone who had this weapon. I haven't raced in 10 years but this bike makes me start thinking about it. Guess I'm going to be about 5 grand poorer pretty soon.

    Thanks for all of your input.

  19. #19
    Wzl
    Wzl is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    493
    What do you say about this spec? Any negative feedback on any of these parts on this frame I should know about? I saw some discussion about fork choice. My feeling from a single test ride was that I would prefer the Talus over the Float during steeper climbs to drop the front end, reducing the effort/concentration on my part. My intended use for this weapon will be fast, fast trail riding and loads of climbing. I have other rigs for the steep and nasty so a super stiff 20mm thru axel front end is not what I'm after here.

    Frame - nuclear green, medium
    Fork - Talus
    Wheels - CrossMax SLR
    Brakes - Formula K18 180F/160R
    Tires - Kenda Nevegal/Blue Groove Tubeless
    Handlebar - Eastorn Carbon lo rise
    Stem - Thomson (black)
    Shifters - X0 triggers
    Rear derailleur - XO medium cage
    Front derailleur - XT
    Cassette - XT 11-34
    Crank - XT 22/36 with bashring
    Seat post - Maverick Speedball R
    Saddle - WTB Silverdo
    Grips - ODI Rogue lock on's
    Chain - Sram PC991
    Pedals - Candy SL's

  20. #20
    You know my steez...
    Reputation: BunnV's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    906

    It's all POSITIVE!

    Quote Originally Posted by Wzl
    What do you say about this spec? Any negative feedback on any of these parts on this frame I should know about?
    Frame - nuclear green, medium
    Fork - Talus
    Wheels - CrossMax SLR
    Brakes - Formula K18 180F/160R
    Tires - Kenda Nevegal/Blue Groove Tubeless
    Handlebar - Eastorn Carbon lo rise
    Stem - Thomson (black)
    Shifters - X0 triggers
    Rear derailleur - XO medium cage
    Front derailleur - XT
    Cassette - XT 11-34
    Crank - XT 22/36 with bashring
    Seat post - Maverick Speedball R
    Saddle - WTB Silverdo
    Grips - ODI Rogue lock on's
    Chain - Sram PC991
    Pedals - Candy SL's
    Sounds great to me! It's nice to see that after your initial concerns you've decided to go with a Mojo. I ordered a stock SX build, but like you I went with the TALAS. I know I will be happy (it's FINALLY at the shop, I pick it up tomorrow) I expect that you will be happy too.

    Congratulations!

  21. #21
    OregonMojo
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    45
    Wzl - several other posts I've seen on the forum strongly suggest long cage rear der to help minimize chain slap against the chain stays. Might want to consider that.

  22. #22
    Wzl
    Wzl is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    493
    Long cage to keep the chain slap down, eh? Hmm. Interesting. I never thought of that. I was after slightly faster shifting performance.

    I ask around. Thanks.

    As for me pulling the trigger after just one ride..... Well, all I can say is I'm an addict and Stevie at Fat Tire Cyles is a really good bike pimp.

  23. #23
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    309

    Chain slap medium cage

    I would be interested to hear how your medium cage X.9 derailleur preforms with regard to chain slap. Especially since you are running 2 front rings 22/36. I also run 2 rings 22/34 I should probably run 36 but I had a 34 in my parts box. I also run a closer cassette 11-26 and the standard SX build long cage X.9. I was running my stans ztr olympic XC race wheels the other day and my mates behind me said it was amazing. They couldn't here any slap just the ultra precise clicks of the american classic freehub.

    I was thinking of trying a short cage X.0 when my finances recover.


    With the origonal drive train I had had 3 or 4 chain suck incidents. One was parcticulary bad, I had to break the chain to free it up. Since going compact I have had no probs.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •