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  1. #1
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    and ibis were first:

    breezer (kgb) drop outs. urt's (well..). headtube metal face plates (now everybody has one), EBB singlespeeds, double butted ti frames. the only ones with a sense of humour,the ultimate sign of inteligence. not bringing bikes with suspension concepts named: "constant variable of travelling axle path whatever" that get old in 2 hrs . they honestly sold us an ultra expensive ti stem that we didn't need but would buy with no purppose other than having an ultra beautiful part. fun and elegance. cheaper than spending thousands on an ugly futuristic contraption that you are supposed to need. the mojo would cost $900 while all it's pairs would be much more ( a steelman hardtail is $2000!).
    no more ibis. life is unfair.

  2. #2
    Witty McWitterson
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    Amen. I always wanted an Ibis, but the opportunity never really arose, and it probably never will again. That is unless Scot goes insane and decides to start something up again. I have heard rumors that he's trying to buy back the name, so that may be a first step. The thought of an Ibis 29" Mojo turns my crank for sure!
    Just a regular guy.

  3. #3
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    and the mojo handling..

    Quote Originally Posted by ~martini~
    Amen. I always wanted an Ibis, but the opportunity never really arose, and it probably never will again. That is unless Scot goes insane and decides to start something up again. I have heard rumors that he's trying to buy back the name, so that may be a first step. The thought of an Ibis 29" Mojo turns my crank for sure!
    smooth and fast, groovy. a 29in mojo would dissipate my reluctance towards big wheels: bikes handling like sinking boats.

  4. #4
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    wes willits worked at ibis!

    Quote Originally Posted by ~martini~
    Amen. I always wanted an Ibis, but the opportunity never really arose, and it probably never will again. That is unless Scot goes insane and decides to start something up again. I have heard rumors that he's trying to buy back the name, so that may be a first step. The thought of an Ibis 29" Mojo turns my crank for sure!
    ibis released the scorcher a loong time a go: a town bike with risers and 29in wheels! another first. ibis pioneered the 29in ss concept. scot is experienced.. ("are you?")

  5. #5
    Witty McWitterson
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    Quote Originally Posted by colker1
    {29"} bikes handling like sinking boats.

    I'll just let that one go. No need to get all techy an sh!t in here. This is about vintage love. Oh, and the first '29"er' vote in my book goes to Bianchi and the Project series they put out in the early 90's. Smoke 45c's and RS mag 21's. They really were mtbs. The scorcher was a commuter(and a damned gorgous one at that), not a mtb.
    Just a regular guy.

  6. #6
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    experience as in jimi hendrix experience

    Quote Originally Posted by ~martini~
    I'll just let that one go. No need to get all techy an sh!t in here. This is about vintage love. Oh, and the first '29"er' vote in my book goes to Bianchi and the Project series they put out in the early 90's. Smoke 45c's and RS mag 21's. They really were mtbs. The scorcher was a commuter(and a damned gorgous one at that), not a mtb.
    sorry martini, english is my 2nd language.. the album title came to my head while i was replying but the quote went bad.
    hmmm.. i remeber those bianchis. are those smokes still around?

  7. #7
    the new Gilbert Grape
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    early 29ers

    Quote Originally Posted by ~martini~
    I'll just let that one go. No need to get all techy an sh!t in here. This is about vintage love. Oh, and the first '29"er' vote in my book goes to Bianchi and the Project series they put out in the early 90's. Smoke 45c's and RS mag 21's. They really were mtbs. The scorcher was a commuter(and a damned gorgous one at that), not a mtb.

    When I was looking for a new bike in '93, either Mongoose or Diamond Back (can't remember which) offered a MTB with 700 wheels on it. I didn't come with a shock, but was a "real" MTB that sold in the $1000 neighborhood. I thought about buying one, except the tire selection was next to nothing.

    I'd say that cyclocross bikes are the original 29ers, and they have been around for a long time.

    As far as Ibis goes... any company that builds a bike out of Moron tubing, paints it green, and calls it the Hakaligi is okay in my book.

  8. #8
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    One of the most beautiful mountain bikes I ever rode was an ancient Ibis, circa 1986 I would guess, that was this funky olive color with silver logos. Olive bike that is beautiful? You had to see it. And talk about laid back, though it was aggressive for its day I suppose.

    Gotta ask though, wouldn't Breezer be the first company to use Breeze-in dropouts?

  9. #9
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    as i remember, kgb drop outs were first seen on ti mojo

    Quote Originally Posted by IF52
    One of the most beautiful mountain bikes I ever rode was an ancient Ibis, circa 1986 I would guess, that was this funky olive color with silver logos. Olive bike that is beautiful? You had to see it. And talk about laid back, though it was aggressive for its day I suppose.

    Gotta ask though, wouldn't Breezer be the first company to use Breeze-in dropouts?
    but then, i may be wrong (by a large margin).

  10. #10
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    Cool-blue Rhythm Breeze-In Drops

    > Gotta ask though, wouldn't Breezer be the first company to use Breeze-in dropouts?


    Nope, The wright Brothers developed the Breeze-in Dropout. ! Yep, the same ones who built the planes... Joe picked it up after doing a bit of good research, integrated a derailleur hanger into it, and it's copied on pretty much every bike on the market today. Good stuff.
    Nothing left to lose, & half mad.

  11. #11
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    and the BIG debate is:

    Quote Originally Posted by flyingsuperpetis
    > Gotta ask though, wouldn't Breezer be the first company to use Breeze-in dropouts?


    Nope, The wright Brothers developed the Breeze-in Dropout. ! Yep, the same ones who built the planes... Joe picked it up after doing a bit of good research, integrated a derailleur hanger into it, and it's copied on pretty much every bike on the market today. Good stuff.
    who invented the airplane? americans say the wright brothers while everybody else on the planet hail santos dumont, the brazilian eccentric millionaire who built the demoiselle in paris. he used to land on the champs elysee and go lunch on his favourite restaurant. now that's style! he also invented the wrist watch.

  12. #12
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    I'm going to have to side with... dunno

    Quote Originally Posted by colker1
    who invented the airplane? americans say the wright brothers while everybody else on the planet hail santos dumont, the brazilian eccentric millionaire who built the demoiselle in paris. he used to land on the champs elysee and go lunch on his favourite restaurant. now that's style! he also invented the wrist watch.
    Yep, well, the Wright Bros may have done it on their own, but I think it's safe to say Santos did it full on successfully first. Still, anyone who employed the scientific method in those days, got useful data, experimented and built their own gear all by themselves is certainly deserving of the title of inventor. Like the mountain bike, though no one can really claim to be the end all originator of the machine, (except of course the demigod Gary Fisher, at least according to one marketing department...), it doesn't make it any less impressive to me. Slightly less hollywood-like, maybe...

    Personally, I like the Bros, cause they were bike shop guys (and pretty good ones too).
    Nothing left to lose, & half mad.

  13. #13
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    yeah, but the fischer take on the mtn bike creation is

    Quote Originally Posted by flyingsuperpetis
    Yep, well, the Wright Bros may have done it on their own, but I think it's safe to say Santos did it full on successfully first. Still, anyone who employed the scientific method in those days, got useful data, experimented and built their own gear all by themselves is certainly deserving of the title of inventor. Like the mountain bike, though no one can really claim to be the end all originator of the machine, (except of course the demigod Gary Fisher, at least according to one marketing department...), it doesn't make it any less impressive to me. Slightly less hollywood-like, maybe...

    Personally, I like the Bros, cause they were bike shop guys (and pretty good ones too).
    ridiculous, to say the least. to promote himself and not the truth, he brings down all the other people who were experimenting AT THE SAME TIME with 26 in off road.
    in brazil the santos dumont x wright brothers is a patriotic issue... i'm not into patriotism really. who said "patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel"? great line. i guess it was an american general who said it, in the XIX century.
    bikes are better than countries.

  14. #14
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    Smile Holy smokes!

    Quote Originally Posted by colker1
    breezer (kgb) drop outs. urt's (well..). headtube metal face plates (now everybody has one), EBB singlespeeds, double butted ti frames. the only ones with a sense of humour,the ultimate sign of inteligence. not bringing bikes with suspension concepts named: "constant variable of travelling axle path whatever" that get old in 2 hrs . they honestly sold us an ultra expensive ti stem that we didn't need but would buy with no purppose other than having an ultra beautiful part. fun and elegance. cheaper than spending thousands on an ugly futuristic contraption that you are supposed to need. the mojo would cost $900 while all it's pairs would be much more ( a steelman hardtail is $2000!).
    no more ibis. life is unfair.
    Man, I didn't see all this! Ibis may have been one of the first to include their sense of humor in their marketing, with Fat Chance, of course, but Metal Head Badges were brought back into Vogue by Mt Goat first, Double Butted Ti frames were done by spectrum & Merlin years earlier, URT's came from a Trimble/One-Off/Augsburger design and predated Castellanos notions by a few years, and (nevermind the Wright Bros), Breezer Drops were on Breezers a full year before they showed up on anyone elses frames. Cool cast fittings like the Handjob and ToeJamb & whatnot were definitely Ibis's slick little details, and that stem was just an absolute jewel, as if just to show people, "This stem, is simply because we can." But the guys definitely liked to spend time on refinement rather than blind innovation. That said, not many companies have attempted anything like the Bow-Ti...
    Nothing left to lose, & half mad.

  15. #15
    artistic...
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    ooops..

    Quote Originally Posted by flyingsuperpetis
    Man, I didn't see all this! Ibis may have been one of the first to include their sense of humor in their marketing, with Fat Chance, of course, but Metal Head Badges were brought back into Vogue by Mt Goat first, Double Butted Ti frames were done by spectrum & Merlin years earlier, URT's came from a Trimble/One-Off/Augsburger design and predated Castellanos notions by a few years, and (nevermind the Wright Bros), Breezer Drops were on Breezers a full year before they showed up on anyone elses frames. Cool cast fittings like the Handjob and ToeJamb & whatnot were definitely Ibis's slick little details, and that stem was just an absolute jewel, as if just to show people, "This stem, is simply because we can." But the guys definitely liked to spend time on refinement rather than blind innovation. That said, not many companies have attempted anything like the Bow-Ti...
    ignorance and enthusiasm for ibis made me do it!... but ebb's on single speeds were done first by ibis.

  16. #16
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    I think it was Einstein?

    Quote Originally Posted by colker1
    ridiculous, to say the least. to promote himself and not the truth, he brings down all the other people who were experimenting AT THE SAME TIME with 26 in off road.
    in brazil the santos dumont x wright brothers is a patriotic issue... i'm not into patriotism really. who said "patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel"? great line. i guess it was an american general who said it, in the XIX century.
    bikes are better than countries.
    The Fisher one is made even more awful when you find out who was making his stuff. Ever since day 1, Joe Breeze & Tom Ritchey were building his equipment. His role is increasingly marginalized the more you find out. Seems to be more like a combination of about the luckiest guy in the world, and the guy with the biggest mouth (not to mention ego)...

    I thought it was Einstein who said that! Maybe not, but he had given much thought to the dangers & pitfalls of patriotism & nationalism. You can find some incredibly rational thinking in his "ideas & opinions". Eerily, the first few pages deal with his impressions of the US, which he describes, as overwhelmingly exciting, but with a concern pertaining to a hint of blind nationalism lurking in the corners, & how this may be eventually used to lure a public into the horrors of illigitimate war...
    Nothing left to lose, & half mad.

  17. #17
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    ebb & flow

    > ignorance and enthusiasm for ibis made me do it!... but ebb's on single speeds were done first by ibis.

    Hehehe, I couldn't resist all that. But yep, I think they were on th ebb's, you're right. Prob made sense with the cousin it tidbits lying round the shop.
    Myself though, I'm a bit ashamed to admit, I really didn't pay much attention to the SS movement at first, so I'm not sure. Thought it sounded like a fun time, but wholly impractical and therefore a doomed limited market (within the already niche market of high-end mtbs).

    I have SEEEEEEEEEEN the light!
    Nothing left to lose, & half mad.

  18. #18
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    self promotion...

    Quote Originally Posted by flyingsuperpetis
    The Fisher one is made even more awful when you find out who was making his stuff. Ever since day 1, Joe Breeze & Tom Ritchey were building his equipment. His role is increasingly marginalized the more you find out. Seems to be more like a combination of about the luckiest guy in the world, and the guy with the biggest mouth (not to mention ego)...

    I thought it was Einstein who said that! Maybe not, but he had given much thought to the dangers & pitfalls of patriotism & nationalism. You can find some incredibly rational thinking in his "ideas & opinions". Eerily, the first few pages deal with his impressions of the US, which he describes, as overwhelmingly exciting, but with a concern pertaining to a hint of blind nationalism lurking in the corners, & how this may be eventually used to lure a public into the horrors of illigitimate war...
    is a big career field nowadays isn't it? you have agents, pr's and other professional bs specialists workin on it. you can become a respected public figure with very few achievements and talent.
    well... einstein had a clue.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by colker1
    who invented the airplane? americans say the wright brothers while everybody else on the planet hail santos dumont, the brazilian eccentric millionaire who built the demoiselle in paris. he used to land on the champs elysee and go lunch on his favourite restaurant. now that's style! he also invented the wrist watch.
    It's funny, I had never heard much about of Santo Dumont until this year. For many years however I have questioned whether or not the Wrights actually made that first "powered" flight as it is claimed in US history books. If you you consider the fact that they made similar duration flights with gliders, and their first powered flights where all catapult launches it is easy to question the legitimacy of their stake on that claim. Santo Dumonts "first powered flight" seems more legitimate to me since the aircraft actually took off and left the ground under its own power, with no assistance from a catapult.

    So under those rules, when would the Wrights have made their first powered flight?

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by flyingsuperpetis
    Man, I didn't see all this! Ibis may have been one of the first to include their sense of humor in their marketing, with Fat Chance, of course, but Metal Head Badges were brought back into Vogue by Mt Goat first, Double Butted Ti frames were done by spectrum & Merlin years earlier, URT's came from a Trimble/One-Off/Augsburger design and predated Castellanos notions by a few years, and (nevermind the Wright Bros), Breezer Drops were on Breezers a full year before they showed up on anyone elses frames. Cool cast fittings like the Handjob and ToeJamb & whatnot were definitely Ibis's slick little details, and that stem was just an absolute jewel, as if just to show people, "This stem, is simply because we can." But the guys definitely liked to spend time on refinement rather than blind innovation. That said, not many companies have attempted anything like the Bow-Ti...
    Aw, now I wasn't going to bring all of that up

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by flyingsuperpetis
    The Fisher one is made even more awful when you find out who was making his stuff. Ever since day 1, Joe Breeze & Tom Ritchey were building his equipment. His role is increasingly marginalized the more you find out. Seems to be more like a combination of about the luckiest guy in the world, and the guy with the biggest mouth (not to mention ego)...

    I thought it was Einstein who said that! Maybe not, but he had given much thought to the dangers & pitfalls of patriotism & nationalism. You can find some incredibly rational thinking in his "ideas & opinions". Eerily, the first few pages deal with his impressions of the US, which he describes, as overwhelmingly exciting, but with a concern pertaining to a hint of blind nationalism lurking in the corners, & how this may be eventually used to lure a public into the horrors of illigitimate war...
    Gary Fisher is actually a pretty nice guy, though probably a little brain faded from years of KGB. Just because he didn't build his own bikes doesn't mean he wasn't a pioneer. Hell, Eddy Merckx didn't braze up his own frames, but that doesn't make him any less of a brilliant cyclist. Nor did Jacky Ickx build his own cars, but he was a great driver in his day. Fisher saw the potential of the mountain bike and capitalized on it, can't fault him for that. If he hadn't whose to say Tom or Joe would have become the frame building legend they are today.

  22. #22
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    exactly.

    Quote Originally Posted by IF52
    It's funny, I had never heard much about of Santo Dumont until this year. For many years however I have questioned whether or not the Wrights actually made that first "powered" flight as it is claimed in US history books. If you you consider the fact that they made similar duration flights with gliders, and their first powered flights where all catapult launches it is easy to question the legitimacy of their stake on that claim. Santo Dumonts "first powered flight" seems more legitimate to me since the aircraft actually took off and left the ground under its own power, with no assistance from a catapult.

    So under those rules, when would the Wrights have made their first powered flight?
    the wrights were the first to fly but santos dumont built the first airplane. it's a beautifull machine by the way...

  23. #23
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    someone up above said that the rest of the world (ie, not the us) says that someone a brazilian was the first to fly. i am not going to argue about who built the first airplane as i am hardly an expert on early aviation, but i must strongly dispute the claim that the rest of the world believes it was a brazilian. dougal on the shocks and brakes forums says it was someone from new zealand. at the moment i am in germany and on the anniversary of the wright bros' first flight, there were articles in more than one newspaper about them being the first ones.
    oh. an american author, ambrose bierce, claimed that patriotism was in fact the first refuge of the scoundrel.
    tim
    Last edited by uphiller; 01-22-2004 at 01:33 PM. Reason: had something to add

  24. #24
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    the dispute is on

    Quote Originally Posted by uphiller
    someone up above said that the rest of the world (ie, not the us) says that someone a brazilian was the first to fly. i am not going to argue about who built the first airplane as i am hardly an expert on early aviation, but i must strongly dispute the claim that the rest of the world believes it was a brazilian. dougal on the shocks and brakes forums says it was someone from new zealand. at the moment i am in germany and on the anniversary of the wright bros' first flight, there were articles in more than one newspaper about them being the first ones.
    oh. an american author, ambrose bierce, claimed that patriotism was in fact the first refuge of the scoundrel.
    tim
    who is/ are the fathers of modern aviation. santos dumont built the first airplane, one that has self propulsion. the wright brothers used a device, a catapult that could only have them flying over a few hundred meters. s dumont circumnavigated the eiffel tower a few times before graciously landing where he wanted ... now, you decide.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by colker1
    breezer (kgb) drop outs. urt's (well..). headtube metal face plates (now everybody has one), EBB singlespeeds, double butted ti frames. the only ones with a sense of humour,the ultimate sign of inteligence. not bringing bikes with suspension concepts named: "constant variable of travelling axle path whatever" that get old in 2 hrs . they honestly sold us an ultra expensive ti stem that we didn't need but would buy with no purppose other than having an ultra beautiful part. fun and elegance. cheaper than spending thousands on an ugly futuristic contraption that you are supposed to need. the mojo would cost $900 while all it's pairs would be much more ( a steelman hardtail is $2000!).
    no more ibis. life is unfair.
    Well, they weren't first for URTs. The basic design goes back a century, slingshots are by their very nature, a high pivot point urt, and the first true modern URT mountain bikes were a co-venture between Roo Trimble (brother of Brent Trimble) and One-Off Titanium and they made about 20 of those frames. Some used a Ti front and Ti rear end, and some had the trimble carbon I-4 front end with a Ti rear end.

    Also I seem to recall merlin experimenting with butted titanium frames in the early 90s, as did Serotta. As to headtube metal headplates? When exactly did they first do that?

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