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  1. #1
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    HDR/Mojo HD long travel 650B rear shock clarification

    I wanted to post some useful info here or at least what I view as useful info. I have since done the long travel 650B conversion. When I first started researching here I thought that Bikeco was the only shop that could help me out. But I didn't want to run the Roco from Bikeco for two reasons.
    1) Bikeco would only modify a brand new shock purchased from them
    2) I didn't want to pay CA sales tax (I am a CA resident)
    3) I didn't feel that I needed to limit my travel to 147

    Using the CCDBA:

    To debunk myth #1. Yes the CCDBA can be spaced down. I talked directly to Cane Creek about this. They said to send the CCDBA To Garageworks suspension in Oceanside CA Or Suspension Experts in Asheville, NC. Both Companies said no problem. They can space the travel down to any amount. Approximate cost $150. It involves a complete rebuild.

    But after breaking my wrist and not being able to ride for 6 months. My priorities changed and I no longer wanted to use the CCDBA

    The Companies out there that can do this modification besides Bikeco to any rear shock and custom tune them to your weight, riding style, and needs are:

    -Suspension Experts (the owner Kevin rides an HD) was super nice and we had about three very long conversations about my modification needs. A brand new Custom tuned RS Monarch Plus was quoted at $475

    -Garage works suspension Very knowledgable. Used to work for Sram I think. Is licensed by CC for CCDBA service center along with all other rear shock companies.

    -Hippie tech suspension-the owner used to work for Sram for many years. He still races downhill and is very knowledgeable & passionate. Will work on all rear shocks.

    -Avalanche suspension (This guys back ground is moto cross and the mods he does to suspension is legendary. It went way over my head as he talked my ear off for half an hour. I will probably send him my Pike at the end of the season)

    -XFusion. They will sell you a brand new shock with a custom tune and shimmed to whichever amount of travel you want. Again if I could have afforded a new shock and the CA sales tax I would have gone this route for sure.

    -Bkeco in Lake forest, CA (Close to Laguna Beach). Owned by Brian Lopes Mechanic. Does a damn fine job on custom tuning rear suspension. Not just the Roco. Will rebuild and tune any shock. Just for the HD conversion you need to purchase from them.

    The benefit I saw to these other companies (besides Bikeco) are I could send them any shock I wanted to. Some had refurbished shocks that I could purchase at a significantly lower price. And they would allow me to choose whatever amount of travel I wanted to use. Stupidity be damned.

    To those who want a long travel HDR the conversion is easy. I would purchase the long travel 26" frame. Than use your 650b wheelset and measure, measure, measure, measure, measure the distance to bottom out on the seat tube and that is how much you need to limit travel. It's that easy. Toss the POS rear shock and get some type of reservoir shock and than start measuring.

    Also Derby has done a fine write up here if you are mechanically inclined.

    http://forums.mtbr.com/27-5-650b/650...ty-731083.html

    http://forums.mtbr.com/27-5-650b/650...ce-623853.html

    I purchased a used 2014 Monarch plus and sent it to Suspension Experts Fir my HD I had the travel limited by only 10mm. Now with the shock at full bottom out I feel like I could have gotten away with maybe 7-8mm of spacing instead of 10mm. My frame is the 135x12 rear triangle. Your frame year will probably be different.

    So to those who say a 130 650b Mojo HD is unacceptable. Or that 147 isn't enough. I say I could have had a 154 travel 650B Mojo HD. My XL Mojo HD 650b 150mm weighs 28.2lbs. I'm running a 2.25 ardent in the rear an Hans Dampf up front. Light cycle carbon rims (Sorry Derby) KS Lev, 2x10 drivetrain.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails HDR/Mojo HD long travel  650B rear shock clarification-image.jpg  

    HDR/Mojo HD long travel  650B rear shock clarification-image.jpg  

    Last edited by spunkmtb; 02-21-2014 at 08:37 AM.
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  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by spunkmtb View Post

    I say I could have easily had a 156mm travel 650B Mojo HD. .
    Nice writeup!

    Two things:

    1. Bikeco is not in Laguna Beach, it's in Lake Forest (nitpickey I know but someone may want to try to look them up and think they have the wrong place).

    2. You lost me here...
    Quote Originally Posted by spunkmtb View Post
    I say I could have easily had a 156mm travel 650B Mojo HD.
    please explain how you can run 27.5 and shim only 4mm without hitting the seat tube?

  3. #3
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    Thanks. I did this write-up mostly because of how confused I was when I was researching the mod and all of the miss information and incomplete information that I read. As well as mucho good information as well.


    More knowledgeable Ibiseans may chime in here. Who knows. But as far as my understanding and please don't literally quote me. But all the different HD'S have different seat tube clearances depending on your model year. But with my model HD (I purchased the frame used. I think it is a 2012 135x12 rear axle non direct mount front D). Using the 2.25 ardent as a rear tire (who knows. If I had an Hans Dampf on there it might be different). With my modified rear shock completely deflated and at bottom out it looks as if I cold squeeze out another 2-4mm of travel and still clear the seat tube. I will try to post a pic later with my shock deflated. But I am about to ride and do not feel like pumping. Perhaps once I finish building my 29er I will pull the shock apart and try removing some spacers or whatever suspension experts used to space the shock.
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  4. #4
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    This plan does not address another weakness of the 650b HD160 - the high BB. I plan to get a real 650b frameset later this year, but I am still toying with the idea of moar shock spacers & offset bushings to limit the travel to 140-145mm but getting the BB lower. With tall tires and a long A-C fork, my BB is higher than 14.5" at the moment.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by StiHacka View Post
    This plan does not address another weakness of the 650b HD160 - the high BB. I plan to get a real 650b frameset later this year, but I am still toying with the idea of moar shock spacers & offset bushings to limit the travel to 140-145mm but getting the BB lower. With tall tires and a long A-C fork, my BB is higher than 14.5" at the moment.
    That wasn't the point of this thread bit was simply to help people figure out the most daunting Part of the conversion. Which for me was the modification of the rear shock. If people read all the various threads they will be forewarned about the hi BB.

    When I originally switched to 650b I was running a 170 fork and I really did notice the hi BB. I changed to a 160 front fork and didn't notice it as much.

    But again the point of the thread is to help people sort out the rear shock modifications. That is all.
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    Another option to address the high BB is to use a 200x57mm/7.875x2.25" shock (without any shimming) and the HD140 limbo chips. Someone on these forums mentioned he was running it (can't remember who) and that there was sufficient seat tube clearance at bottom out (with a 2.3 Neo-Moto). That would drop your BB by about 0.3" and give you around 150mm of travel.

    Of course, if that isn't an option if you have an 8.5x2.5" shock and don't want to replace it.

  7. #7
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    That is my current set up. I'm running a XF H3 with a Sweep and 140 chips. With 2.35 NNs I've got a BB height of 13.8". I have set of offset proshox bushings I'll be playing with as well as a custom "team" DW link tunned RLX (have I mention how awsome the XF guys are today?) .

  8. #8
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    Interesting reading & great info: keep it coming! Further proof (if any was needed) that the HD/HDR is the most versatile frame money can buy.

    Quick question for those running 200x57 shocks in 140 mode. Is there still a noticeable difference in ride feel relative to the 8.5x2.5 160mm (or 156...) mode? It's been a while since I've switched back, but I recall pretty different pedaling characteristics.

  9. #9
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    That's right. I did forget to mention that I talked to XFusion and they were willing to do a custom shock for me as well. But again I would have had to pay CA sales tax which put the cost up over $500 for me. However going through the shop I usually purchase from (Shameless plug here) tryonbike.com I could have ordered the custom tuned shock through them and skipped the tax. But it was still more cost effective for me to buy a used shock and get it tuned.

    On a side note I bumped into this guy (Curtis Keene) on the trail today. He really liked my bike and mentioned what a great fork the Pike is. When I posed for the picture I purposely put the Ibis in front of him for my own guilty pleasure.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails HDR/Mojo HD long travel  650B rear shock clarification-image.jpg  

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  10. #10
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    Spumkmtb..did you have the stroke length reduced by 10mm or the rear wheel travel of the bike reduced by 10mm?

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big boss man View Post
    Spumkmtb..did you have the stroke length reduced by 10mm or the rear wheel travel of the bike reduced by 10mm?
    I do not know how much Suspension experts limited the stroke. I had the travel reduced by 10mm
    Last edited by spunkmtb; 02-20-2014 at 07:45 PM. Reason: I was mistaken when I wrote this reply.
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  12. #12
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    For those that asked I uploaded some pics to my original post. They are iPhone pics and aren't the best. But it gives you an idea. As I said. Measure, measure, measure.
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    Your calculation for rear wheel travel is incorrect. Shock stroke length and rear wheel travel are not the same. If you shorten the stroke of your shock by 10mm that reduces the wheel travel by the ratio of the initial stroke length/rear wheel travel.

    So taking 10mm out of a 2.5in (63.5mm) stroke shock reduces the rear wheel travel from 160mm to 135mm.

    ((63.5-10)/63.5) * 160 = 135 mm

    Your rear wheel travel is 135, not 150

  14. #14
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    I just wanted to clarify something - the bikeco setup uses a custom stroke and custom e2e in order to maximize the HDR travel to 147mm while keeping the BB level, afaik all the other options are shim only and compromise BB height. I would love to get a 147mm Monarch HDR without raising the BB but that doesn't seem to be available at the moment...

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big boss man View Post
    Your calculation for rear wheel travel is incorrect. Shock stroke length and rear wheel travel are not the same. If you shorten the stroke of your shock by 10mm that reduces the wheel travel by the ratio of the initial stroke length/rear wheel travel.

    So taking 10mm out of a 2.5in (63.5mm) stroke shock reduces the rear wheel travel from 160mm to 135mm.

    ((63.5-10)/63.5) * 160 = 135 mm

    Your rear wheel travel is 135, not 150
    Actually you are correct and I am mistaken. My math skills are sub par. I told suspension experts to limit the travel of the bike to 150 or suspension travel by 10mm. That is not how much stroke they removed. Thank you for correcting me.
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  16. #16
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    The way that I calculated how much to have the travel reduced was I let the air out of my rear shock. I took a sharpie marker & drew a line on the shaft of the stroke where bottom out was. Than I reset the o-ring and pushed down on the bike until I felt the rear tire was an except able distance towards the seat tube. I measured the difference between the sharpie mark and the o ring. I ended up with 10mm. I gave that number to Suspension Experts. How many millimeters they limited the travel by I do not know. I would have to ask. But the Derby write up shows how little it needs to be limited by.

    "I just wanted to clarify something - the bikeco setup uses a custom stroke and custom e2e in order to maximize the HDR travel to 147mm while keeping the BB level, afaik all the other options are shim only and compromise BB height. I would love to get a 147mm Monarch HDR without raising the BB but that doesn't seem to be available at the moment..."

    I do apologize for any confusion. I just wanted to try and help people out with the other options that I found out there. As far as the Bikeco custom i2i shaft. They never mentioned that to me over the phone when I contacted them. That was my experience. I recommend calling and asking them about that if you are interested in doing the mod. They never mentioned that to me on the phone. That was my experience.
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    HDR/Mojo HD long travel 650B rear shock clarification

    Nice job starting an informative thread to help clear up any confusion and point out more options : )

    I am running the BikeCo Roco and it has been really impressive so far. Looking forward to getting this bike dialed even more once the snow melts and trails dry out.

    I have been meaning to write up a review of the BikeCo HDR 650b with some useful info. For now I guess I should mention (since I've seen it asked more than once) the measurements for the custom Roco. It's 8.35" eye-to-eye and stroke appears to be just under 2" (1.96" or so).

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    Quote Originally Posted by conekilr View Post
    Nice job starting an informative thread to help clear up any confusion and point out more options : )

    I am running the BikeCo Roco and it has been really impressive so far. Looking forward to getting this bike dialed even more once the snow melts and trails dry out.

    I have been meaning to write up a review of the BikeCo HDR 650b with some useful info. For now I guess I should mention (since I've seen it asked more than once) the measurements for the custom Roco. It's 8.35" eye-to-eye and stroke appears to be just under 2" (1.96" or so).
    Hmmm interesting. wouldnt it take 2.25" stroke to achieve 147mm travel?

  19. #19
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    HDR/Mojo HD long travel 650B rear shock clarification

    Thanks for starting a really useful thread, spunk. There are some tuners on your list I wasn't aware of.

    Re. Stroke vs wheel travel....
    If you marked 10mm from the original bottom out point on the shock shaft with your wheel at the position you wanted to be the new bottom-out, and they delivered you a shock that bottoms at that desired wheel position, then they reduced your shock stroke by 10mm. The resulting reduction in actual travel measured at the wheel is going to be STROKE x RATE, with rate being how many mm the wheel moves for every 1 mm of shock stroke. I don't know what that rate is exactly in the latter part of the stroke on a HD160, but 2.0 is probably in the ballpark. I would love to hear a hard # if somebody knows it. If my estimate just happened to be exactly right, then your actual reduction in travel would be 10x2.0 = 20mm reduction, for final wheel travel of 140mm.
    I hope this is constructive and helps everybody's understanding.

    edit: After StiHacka shared the leverage curve, we know that it's more like 2.75 at the bottom end of the stroke.
    Last edited by doismellbacon; 02-21-2014 at 08:50 AM. Reason: corrected a dyslexic statement

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    Just picked up a later model HD with 142x12 swing arm, and the slight increase in tire clearance.

    I'm looking to run it 650b and after looking at various options, I am going to try and run a 7.875 x 2.25 on it, with 140 limbo chips. This keeps the BB lower but should bump the travel up to about 143mm or so. Planning to run 2.25 NN in the rear, and I'm hoping it will clear with no additional shimming needed. I plan to use a 150mm 27.5 Pike, so front/rear travel will be close, and BB height is lower than with the 8.5 shock.

    Hoping this setup works with minimal modding. Gets close to the bike co numbers without having to get a custom shock. I think the limiting factor will be tire clearance, so for those who want to run big tires, it may not be an option.

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    Just to add to what has been already said, another way to shorten a shock's i2i is using offset bushings.
    Here is your leverage ratio.

    This means that:
    * if you use a shorter shock or offset bushings (or 140mm limbo chips), the wheel travel gets reduced by 3.1x of the length difference at the start of its travel
    * if you force a shorter stroke (different shock, or bottom out spacers), the wheel travel gets reduced by 2.75x of the stroke difference at the end of its travel
    * reducing shock length or 140mm limbo will have an impact on the DW-Link antisquat and bike pedaling

  22. #22
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    Hey guys. Thanks for chiming in and helping out this thread with informative information!!!!

    I will try to give suspension experts a call today to find out how many MM they shimmed my shock by to give me 150mm rear wheel travel.
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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by doismellbacon View Post
    Thanks for starting a really useful thread, spunk. There are some tuners on your list I wasn't aware of.

    Re. Stroke vs wheel travel....
    If you marked 10mm from the original bottom out point on the shock shaft with your wheel at the position you wanted to be the new bottom-out, and they delivered you a shock that bottoms at that desired wheel position, then they reduced your shock stroke by 10mm. The resulting reduction in actual travel measured at the wheel is going to be STROKE x RATE, with rate being how many mm the wheel moves for every 1 mm of shock stroke. I don't know what that rate is exactly in the initial part of the stroke on a HD160, but 2.0 is probably in the ballpark. I would love to hear a hard # if somebody knows it. If my estimate just happened to be exactly right, then your actual reduction in travel would be 10x2.0 = 20mm reduction, for final wheel travel of 140mm.
    I hope this is constructive and helps everybody's understanding.
    I'm a Respiratory Therapist by trade and I can save your life, with my eyes closed, while eating a bacon cheese burger, and have the TV blaring on the back ground. But when it comes to numbers......... Yikes, I am lost for those of you that understand this God bless you.

    Also I have read what you wrote about 10 times now. I know that I did the measurement on my rear shock. Than I called suspension experts and told them that I wanted to end up with a 150mm rear travel bike. That was my basic understanding of suspension reduction to keep the rear wheel from hitting the seat tube. I will be curious to call SE and see what they did.
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    The variable leverage ratios definitely make shimming for clearance more difficult with different shocks, frame tolerances, and wheel/tire sizes. Lots of variables coming into play. Seems like most people end up using the try it an see method, measure, add shims, repeat...based on their particular setup.

    As far as climbing/pedaling performance in 140 vs. 160 mode what are the main differences between the two interns of anti squat, I assume this will also be affected by chainring size too?

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by StiHacka View Post
    Just to add to what has been already said, another way to shorten a shock's i2i is using offset bushings.
    Here is your leverage ratio.

    This means that:
    * if you use a shorter shock or offset bushings (or 140mm limbo chips), the wheel travel gets reduced by 3.1x of the length difference at the start of its travel
    * if you force a shorter stroke (different shock, or bottom out spacers), the wheel travel gets reduced by 2.75x of the stroke difference at the end of its travel
    * reducing shock length or 140mm limbo will have an impact on the DW-Link antisquat and bike pedaling
    Good stuff, Hacka! Where'd you come up with that leverage curve? And good save on my misstatement.... in Spunk's scenario he's limiting stroke at the bottom end of the travel, not the top. Will edit my post to avoid confusion.

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but an HD140 curve would look just like that, but with a little missing from both ends.... the pivot linkages control the rate and they're not changing when swapping shocks & limbo chips, but the 7.875/HD140 setup is working in the middle of the range of motion shown in the 160 graph. So the curve would be the same shape although truncated at both ends. No?

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    Quote Originally Posted by spunkmtb View Post
    I'm a Respiratory Therapist by trade and I can save your life, with my eyes closed, while eating a bacon cheese burger, and have the TV blaring on the back ground. But when it comes to numbers......... Yikes, I am lost for those of you that understand this God bless you.

    Also I have read what you wrote about 10 times now. I know that I did the measurement on my rear shock. Than I called suspension experts and told them that I wanted to end up with a 150mm rear travel bike. That was my basic understanding of suspension reduction to keep the rear wheel from hitting the seat tube. I will be curious to call SE and see what they did.
    SHAME SHAME! Somebody in your line of work should know better than to sit around watching tv eating bacon cheese burgers!

    HA... JK!

    Wait, I'm forgetting, that's what all this pedaling is for... so we can sit on our asses sometimes and chow down!
    ......sniff sniff..... Do I smell bacon?

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    Quote Originally Posted by doismellbacon View Post
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but an HD140 curve would look just like that, but with a little missing from both ends.... the pivot linkages control the rate and they're not changing when swapping shocks & limbo chips, but the 7.875/HD140 setup is working in the middle of the range of motion shown in the 160 graph. So the curve would be the same shape although truncated at both ends. No?
    Hehe, my google-fu is strong (search for images with "Mojo HD leverage ratio")

    Yes, the curve is driven by the linkages. In the 140mm mode, a shorter shock truncates the left end of the curve - but 140mm limbo chips compensate for this change a bit because they make the shock longer again - and a shorter stroke truncates the right end of the curve.

    Another way to look at the curve is : the more to the left you start, the higher the BB. The more to the right you end, the less clearance for a tire.

    In the end, you have to decide between a: good wheel clearance but higher BB or b: poor wheel clearance (or more spacers) but lower BB and different pedaling, c: short wheel travel. You have to make a trade off and cannot get all of good clearance, long travel and low BB at the same time.

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    Spot On.

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    So who is actually running an HD with a 7.875x2.25 with 140 limbo chips and 650b wheels? As in, who has taken it out onto dirt for extended periods of time, rather than just conjectured about it like me?

    Derby perhaps? Something keeps making me think that's where I read the idea, but I can't find the source.

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    I am. I've run fat 2.25 RaRas and 2.3 NNs 650b with 140 chips and 7.875 x 2.25. No clearence issues.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by conekilr View Post
    Nice job starting an informative thread to help clear up any confusion and point out more options : )

    I am running the BikeCo Roco and it has been really impressive so far. Looking forward to getting this bike dialed even more once the snow melts and trails dry out.

    I have been meaning to write up a review of the BikeCo HDR 650b with some useful info. For now I guess I should mention (since I've seen it asked more than once) the measurements for the custom Roco. It's 8.35" eye-to-eye and stroke appears to be just under 2" (1.96" or so).
    my custom bikeco roco for 650b convert HD in 160 mode is 8.5" e2e. it has fat ass spacer inside to limit travel for 650b conversion. i requested to be able to switch between 650b and 26", so maybe thats why. for 650b conversion my current stroke is 2 1/4". please note that there is 1/8" thick bottom out bumper ring inside that you cant just squish by pushing on the bike with shock deflated, but as i was told on hard hits it gets squished paper thin adding another 1/8" to your stroke.

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    I am running my HD with 140 limbo chips, 2 Burgtech offset bushings, and a Float X. It rides well. It's slower to accelerate than my hd140 with carbon havens. But that will be moot when I get stiffer lighter 650b wheels. I measure 66HA with the iPhone with both offset bushings, but I'm not sure how accurate that is. An actual bb height of 13.5 with hr2 front and ardent rear (tall tires). I have not seen the hdr bottom out clearance, but perhaps the equivalent geometry and shock position of the hdr is equivalent to a single offset bushing on a HD?

    Personally I don't want to go any more than 130mm in 650b on this bike. I like the bb drop, and 650b, short travel, and fast tires.

    I do a lot of Enduro racing on it and I'm perfectly happy making the complete switch between hd 140 650b and 26" 160. Especially on some of the slow steep courses here on the North Shore.

  33. #33
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    Isn't it funny that we think 140mm is short travel now???Man that was a DH bike not too long ago...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ramjm_2000 View Post
    I am. I've run fat 2.25 RaRas and 2.3 NNs 650b with 140 chips and 7.875 x 2.25. No clearence issues.
    Sweet! I was hesitant to order the 2.25 shock without being sure it would provide enough tire clearance. If it required any shimming there'd be little point. Now I just have to wait until the 7.875 x 2.25 Monarch Plus is available!

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    I wouldn't say there would be no point if it was necessary to shim. Some shocks (Vector Air a prime example) that don't come in a 2.0" stroke. Your only option would be to shim.

    My Vector and Sweep came in today. I only had enough time to swap them over (replacing a Float CTD and a Revelation respectively) and set sag. The 2.25" Ardent does not have enough clearence and will touch the seat tube well before bottom-out - no surprise there. The 2.4" Conti X-King does clear with the 2.25" stroke shock. I can't wait to get some bb and hta, and real rear travel measurements.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lazarus2405 View Post
    I wouldn't say there would be no point if it was necessary to shim. Some shocks (Vector Air a prime example) that don't come in a 2.0" stroke. Your only option would be to shim.

    My Vector and Sweep came in today. I only had enough time to swap them over (replacing a Float CTD and a Revelation respectively) and set sag. The 2.25" Ardent does not have enough clearence and will touch the seat tube well before bottom-out - no surprise there. The 2.4" Conti X-King does clear with the 2.25" stroke shock. I can't wait to get some bb and hta, and real rear travel measurements.
    Yeah for sure, I meant more that I probably wouldn't bother if it meant having to shim it significantly, and only increase wheel travel by a couple millimeters.

  37. #37
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    HDR/Mojo HD long travel 650B rear shock clarification

    Quote Originally Posted by ukr77 View Post
    I am running my HD with 140 limbo chips, 2 Burgtech offset bushings, and a Float X. It rides well.
    With 7.875 x 2" shock?

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    Oh crap, sorry about that, yes 2.0 shock. I misread your comment. That being said, 1 bushing leaves a reasonable amount of bottom out clearance, I wouldn't be surprised that a 2.25 stroke shock, with a little bit of shimming, would work and get a slight bit more travel. Project #2:-)

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    I took my HD and my new 7.875x2.25" Vector Air to Ray's this weekend, since we're in slush season in western NY state. I noticed I'm getting what look like witness marks from the rear tire on the seat tube. They're light black vertical marks that can be rubbed off with a little spit, but it looks like they're getting laid down at full bottom-out.

    I thought I had sufficient clearance by deflating the air spring and sitting on the saddle to bottom it out, but it now looks like I wasn't getting the last ~3mm of the stroke. I suspect there's a hard bottom out bumper that needs an impact to actually compress and reach the final end of the stroke. Can anyone confirm?

    I was running a new Conti X-King 2.4, which should make an excellent dry-weather rear tire with a relatively high volume. It actually measures about 2.22" at the widest part (casing) and is taller than the 2.3 Neo-Moto but shorter than the 2.25 Ardent (all on LB rims). The total wheel diameter is around 27.75" (compared to 27.50" for the Neo-Moto). It looks like the tire is a little too tall for the full 2.25" stroke. I haven't decided how to handle the bad news yet - it's either put a new Neo-Moto on the back or shim the shock.

    Addendum: With the X-King in the rear and a Neo-Moto and Sweep (160mm, 551 a2c) on the front, I'm at a measured BB height of 13.8".

  40. #40
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    Sounds like you have a pretty tall tire on there. Can you adjust bottom out on the vector? I'd probably shim it 1-2mm if your going to run that particular tire. A bit of 3M protective tape on the scrub site is probably not a bad idea either. On a related note, you mentioned an extra 3mm of stroke related to a bottom out bumper, how much stroke are you measuring on the external shaft? 53mm?

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by lazarus2405 View Post
    I took my HD and my new 7.875x2.25" Vector Air to Ray's this weekend, since we're in slush season in western NY state. I noticed I'm getting what look like witness marks from the rear tire on the seat tube. They're light black vertical marks that can be rubbed off with a little spit, but it looks like they're getting laid down at full bottom-out.

    I thought I had sufficient clearance by deflating the air spring and sitting on the saddle to bottom it out, but it now looks like I wasn't getting the last ~3mm of the stroke. I suspect there's a hard bottom out bumper that needs an impact to actually compress and reach the final end of the stroke. Can anyone confirm?

    I was running a new Conti X-King 2.4, which should make an excellent dry-weather rear tire with a relatively high volume. It actually measures about 2.22" at the widest part (casing) and is taller than the 2.3 Neo-Moto but shorter than the 2.25 Ardent (all on LB rims). The total wheel diameter is around 27.75" (compared to 27.50" for the Neo-Moto). It looks like the tire is a little too tall for the full 2.25" stroke. I haven't decided how to handle the bad news yet - it's either put a new Neo-Moto on the back or shim the shock.

    Addendum: With the X-King in the rear and a Neo-Moto and Sweep (160mm, 551 a2c) on the front, I'm at a measured BB height of 13.8".
    A couple of temporary band aids:

    Ad a few layers of helicopter tape. When I was experimenting I had about 4 layers on my seat tube. If you aren't bottoming a lot this could be a good fix

    Also add a little air to your shock or if your shock has a bottom out setting adjust that as well.

    I rode about 200 miles with the helicopter tape. It got scratched up. My seat tube is fine.
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    spunkmtb..great post.. so add the end of the day did the long travel kit make a big difference over the stock 130mm mode. Also did you try the HDR in 160 26in mode as well?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ramjm_2000 View Post
    On a related note, you mentioned an extra 3mm of stroke related to a bottom out bumper, how much stroke are you measuring on the external shaft? 53mm?
    When the shock is inflated without any weight on it, the exposed shaft is exactly 57mm, measuring from the edge of the wiper to the end of the shaft. When sitting on the deflated shock, my travel indicator zip tie is a couple mm from the end of the shaft (and the tire is not contacting the seat tube). After bottoming while riding, the zip tie is popped off the end of the shaft. I didn't think to take a more exact measurement when I checked clearance.

    Edited for clarity (stroke -> shaft)
    Last edited by lazarus2405; 02-24-2014 at 12:47 PM.

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    So your exposed shaft length is 57mm uncompressed? On my XF H3 (56 or 57mm) without air and compressed I get around 54mm from the edge of the wipper to the o ring. Sounds like you might also be getting more than the 57mm of travel.

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big boss man View Post
    spunkmtb..great post.. so add the end of the day did the long travel kit make a big difference over the stock 130mm mode. Also did you try the HDR in 160 26in mode as well?
    I have a 2012 Mojo HD which I purchased used and rode as a 26" for about 2 months before I broke my wrist. I knew when I purchased the frame I was going to convert it to 650B. What I did with my frame is the same is the same as what you can do to an HDR. I used it as a reference because the HD is no longer made. If I were to purchase a new HDR I would purchase frame only in the 26" option and do my above modifications to it instead of having to purchase the 160 chips.

    It's funny there was a time where 130mm travel would have been plenty. The majority of where I ride doesn't need the 150-160mm but it sure is nice to ride with it.
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    Alright Ramjm, that jibes well with what I think I'm seeing on the Vector: 57mm exposed shaft, 57mm of stroke at true bottom-out on the trail, and ~54mm of stroke at psuedo-bottom-out when deflated and compressed in the shop. Then it was my mistake for assuming that compressed in the shop was the full stroke when it really wasn't. So what I have is a tire that doesn't truly clear when I thought it did.

    So if that's the case, I should be able to psuedo-bottom the shock in the shop and measure ~3mm of shaft exposed. Then, if I assume the leverage ratio for the end of the travel is 2.7, I should have less than 3mmx2.7=8.1mm of tire clearance between that specific tire and the seat tube when compressed.

    Of course, last night I tore down the bike and pressed out all my linkage bearings, so I can't bring out the calipers and really find out till the new ones arrive on Weds or Thurs.

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    That sounds about right. Also how much psi do you have in the piggyback? If your at the min 180, might want to but that up a hair as well.

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    Yeah, I'm at 180psi. John at X-Fusion suggested I wouldn't even want to touch the piggyback pressure or volume, given that I ordered the DW-link tune. I'll consider upping it the next time I get a chance to ride.

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    Good job! Good info folks

    This is a useful thread. Thanks to all for the thorough participation.
    - -benja- -

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    I have decided to run one more experiment with my 650b HD - 160mm mode, 1x or 2x offset bushings to shorten the shock, 10mm travel spacer for Vengeance to limit it to 150mm, as many spacers needed in the shock for just enough rear wheel clearance. Should be fun.

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