Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 71
  1. #1
    Stupid is, as stupid does
    Reputation: spunkmtb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    412

    HDR/Mojo HD long travel 650B rear shock clarification

    I wanted to post some useful info here or at least what I view as useful info. I have since done the long travel 650B conversion. When I first started researching here I thought that Bikeco was the only shop that could help me out. But I didn't want to run the Roco from Bikeco for two reasons.
    1) Bikeco would only modify a brand new shock purchased from them
    2) I didn't want to pay CA sales tax (I am a CA resident)
    3) I didn't feel that I needed to limit my travel to 147

    Using the CCDBA:

    To debunk myth #1. Yes the CCDBA can be spaced down. I talked directly to Cane Creek about this. They said to send the CCDBA To Garageworks suspension in Oceanside CA Or Suspension Experts in Asheville, NC. Both Companies said no problem. They can space the travel down to any amount. Approximate cost $150. It involves a complete rebuild.

    But after breaking my wrist and not being able to ride for 6 months. My priorities changed and I no longer wanted to use the CCDBA

    The Companies out there that can do this modification besides Bikeco to any rear shock and custom tune them to your weight, riding style, and needs are:

    -Suspension Experts (the owner Kevin rides an HD) was super nice and we had about three very long conversations about my modification needs. A brand new Custom tuned RS Monarch Plus was quoted at $475

    -Garage works suspension Very knowledgable. Used to work for Sram I think. Is licensed by CC for CCDBA service center along with all other rear shock companies.

    -Hippie tech suspension-the owner used to work for Sram for many years. He still races downhill and is very knowledgeable & passionate. Will work on all rear shocks.

    -Avalanche suspension (This guys back ground is moto cross and the mods he does to suspension is legendary. It went way over my head as he talked my ear off for half an hour. I will probably send him my Pike at the end of the season)

    -XFusion. They will sell you a brand new shock with a custom tune and shimmed to whichever amount of travel you want. Again if I could have afforded a new shock and the CA sales tax I would have gone this route for sure.

    -Bkeco in Lake forest, CA (Close to Laguna Beach). Owned by Brian Lopes Mechanic. Does a damn fine job on custom tuning rear suspension. Not just the Roco. Will rebuild and tune any shock. Just for the HD conversion you need to purchase from them.

    The benefit I saw to these other companies (besides Bikeco) are I could send them any shock I wanted to. Some had refurbished shocks that I could purchase at a significantly lower price. And they would allow me to choose whatever amount of travel I wanted to use. Stupidity be damned.

    To those who want a long travel HDR the conversion is easy. I would purchase the long travel 26" frame. Than use your 650b wheelset and measure, measure, measure, measure, measure the distance to bottom out on the seat tube and that is how much you need to limit travel. It's that easy. Toss the POS rear shock and get some type of reservoir shock and than start measuring.

    Also Derby has done a fine write up here if you are mechanically inclined.

    650b Mojo HD ... Heavy Duty

    650b shock bottom-out shim for seat tube clearance

    I purchased a used 2014 Monarch plus and sent it to Suspension Experts Fir my HD I had the travel limited by only 10mm. Now with the shock at full bottom out I feel like I could have gotten away with maybe 7-8mm of spacing instead of 10mm. My frame is the 135x12 rear triangle. Your frame year will probably be different.

    So to those who say a 130 650b Mojo HD is unacceptable. Or that 147 isn't enough. I say I could have had a 154 travel 650B Mojo HD. My XL Mojo HD 650b 150mm weighs 28.2lbs. I'm running a 2.25 ardent in the rear an Hans Dampf up front. Light cycle carbon rims (Sorry Derby) KS Lev, 2x10 drivetrain.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails HDR/Mojo HD long travel  650B rear shock clarification-image.jpg  

    HDR/Mojo HD long travel  650B rear shock clarification-image.jpg  

    Last edited by spunkmtb; 02-21-2014 at 08:37 AM.
    2012 Ibis Mojo HD (155mm 650B)
    Yeti SB95 Carbon
    1993 Brodie Expresso
    RIP 1997 Santa Cruz Heckler.In 2010 the frame cracked

  2. #2
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    147
    Quote Originally Posted by spunkmtb View Post

    I say I could have easily had a 156mm travel 650B Mojo HD. .
    Nice writeup!

    Two things:

    1. Bikeco is not in Laguna Beach, it's in Lake Forest (nitpickey I know but someone may want to try to look them up and think they have the wrong place).

    2. You lost me here...
    Quote Originally Posted by spunkmtb View Post
    I say I could have easily had a 156mm travel 650B Mojo HD.
    please explain how you can run 27.5 and shim only 4mm without hitting the seat tube?

  3. #3
    Stupid is, as stupid does
    Reputation: spunkmtb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    412
    Thanks. I did this write-up mostly because of how confused I was when I was researching the mod and all of the miss information and incomplete information that I read. As well as mucho good information as well.


    More knowledgeable Ibiseans may chime in here. Who knows. But as far as my understanding and please don't literally quote me. But all the different HD'S have different seat tube clearances depending on your model year. But with my model HD (I purchased the frame used. I think it is a 2012 135x12 rear axle non direct mount front D). Using the 2.25 ardent as a rear tire (who knows. If I had an Hans Dampf on there it might be different). With my modified rear shock completely deflated and at bottom out it looks as if I cold squeeze out another 2-4mm of travel and still clear the seat tube. I will try to post a pic later with my shock deflated. But I am about to ride and do not feel like pumping. Perhaps once I finish building my 29er I will pull the shock apart and try removing some spacers or whatever suspension experts used to space the shock.
    2012 Ibis Mojo HD (155mm 650B)
    Yeti SB95 Carbon
    1993 Brodie Expresso
    RIP 1997 Santa Cruz Heckler.In 2010 the frame cracked

  4. #4
    Dissolved member
    Reputation: StiHacka's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    3,496
    This plan does not address another weakness of the 650b HD160 - the high BB. I plan to get a real 650b frameset later this year, but I am still toying with the idea of moar shock spacers & offset bushings to limit the travel to 140-145mm but getting the BB lower. With tall tires and a long A-C fork, my BB is higher than 14.5" at the moment.

  5. #5
    Stupid is, as stupid does
    Reputation: spunkmtb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    412
    Quote Originally Posted by StiHacka View Post
    This plan does not address another weakness of the 650b HD160 - the high BB. I plan to get a real 650b frameset later this year, but I am still toying with the idea of moar shock spacers & offset bushings to limit the travel to 140-145mm but getting the BB lower. With tall tires and a long A-C fork, my BB is higher than 14.5" at the moment.
    That wasn't the point of this thread bit was simply to help people figure out the most daunting Part of the conversion. Which for me was the modification of the rear shock. If people read all the various threads they will be forewarned about the hi BB.

    When I originally switched to 650b I was running a 170 fork and I really did notice the hi BB. I changed to a 160 front fork and didn't notice it as much.

    But again the point of the thread is to help people sort out the rear shock modifications. That is all.
    2012 Ibis Mojo HD (155mm 650B)
    Yeti SB95 Carbon
    1993 Brodie Expresso
    RIP 1997 Santa Cruz Heckler.In 2010 the frame cracked

  6. #6
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    250
    Another option to address the high BB is to use a 200x57mm/7.875x2.25" shock (without any shimming) and the HD140 limbo chips. Someone on these forums mentioned he was running it (can't remember who) and that there was sufficient seat tube clearance at bottom out (with a 2.3 Neo-Moto). That would drop your BB by about 0.3" and give you around 150mm of travel.

    Of course, if that isn't an option if you have an 8.5x2.5" shock and don't want to replace it.

  7. #7
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Ramjm_2000's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    787
    That is my current set up. I'm running a XF H3 with a Sweep and 140 chips. With 2.35 NNs I've got a BB height of 13.8". I have set of offset proshox bushings I'll be playing with as well as a custom "team" DW link tunned RLX (have I mention how awsome the XF guys are today?) .

  8. #8
    screamer
    Reputation: budgie's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    1,128
    Interesting reading & great info: keep it coming! Further proof (if any was needed) that the HD/HDR is the most versatile frame money can buy.

    Quick question for those running 200x57 shocks in 140 mode. Is there still a noticeable difference in ride feel relative to the 8.5x2.5 160mm (or 156...) mode? It's been a while since I've switched back, but I recall pretty different pedaling characteristics.

  9. #9
    Stupid is, as stupid does
    Reputation: spunkmtb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    412
    That's right. I did forget to mention that I talked to XFusion and they were willing to do a custom shock for me as well. But again I would have had to pay CA sales tax which put the cost up over $500 for me. However going through the shop I usually purchase from (Shameless plug here) tryonbike.com I could have ordered the custom tuned shock through them and skipped the tax. But it was still more cost effective for me to buy a used shock and get it tuned.

    On a side note I bumped into this guy (Curtis Keene) on the trail today. He really liked my bike and mentioned what a great fork the Pike is. When I posed for the picture I purposely put the Ibis in front of him for my own guilty pleasure.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails HDR/Mojo HD long travel  650B rear shock clarification-image.jpg  

    2012 Ibis Mojo HD (155mm 650B)
    Yeti SB95 Carbon
    1993 Brodie Expresso
    RIP 1997 Santa Cruz Heckler.In 2010 the frame cracked

  10. #10
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Posts
    124
    Spumkmtb..did you have the stroke length reduced by 10mm or the rear wheel travel of the bike reduced by 10mm?

  11. #11
    Stupid is, as stupid does
    Reputation: spunkmtb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    412
    Quote Originally Posted by Big boss man View Post
    Spumkmtb..did you have the stroke length reduced by 10mm or the rear wheel travel of the bike reduced by 10mm?
    I do not know how much Suspension experts limited the stroke. I had the travel reduced by 10mm
    Last edited by spunkmtb; 02-20-2014 at 07:45 PM. Reason: I was mistaken when I wrote this reply.
    2012 Ibis Mojo HD (155mm 650B)
    Yeti SB95 Carbon
    1993 Brodie Expresso
    RIP 1997 Santa Cruz Heckler.In 2010 the frame cracked

  12. #12
    Stupid is, as stupid does
    Reputation: spunkmtb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    412
    For those that asked I uploaded some pics to my original post. They are iPhone pics and aren't the best. But it gives you an idea. As I said. Measure, measure, measure.
    2012 Ibis Mojo HD (155mm 650B)
    Yeti SB95 Carbon
    1993 Brodie Expresso
    RIP 1997 Santa Cruz Heckler.In 2010 the frame cracked

  13. #13
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Posts
    124
    Your calculation for rear wheel travel is incorrect. Shock stroke length and rear wheel travel are not the same. If you shorten the stroke of your shock by 10mm that reduces the wheel travel by the ratio of the initial stroke length/rear wheel travel.

    So taking 10mm out of a 2.5in (63.5mm) stroke shock reduces the rear wheel travel from 160mm to 135mm.

    ((63.5-10)/63.5) * 160 = 135 mm

    Your rear wheel travel is 135, not 150

  14. #14
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    312
    I just wanted to clarify something - the bikeco setup uses a custom stroke and custom e2e in order to maximize the HDR travel to 147mm while keeping the BB level, afaik all the other options are shim only and compromise BB height. I would love to get a 147mm Monarch HDR without raising the BB but that doesn't seem to be available at the moment...

  15. #15
    Stupid is, as stupid does
    Reputation: spunkmtb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    412
    Quote Originally Posted by Big boss man View Post
    Your calculation for rear wheel travel is incorrect. Shock stroke length and rear wheel travel are not the same. If you shorten the stroke of your shock by 10mm that reduces the wheel travel by the ratio of the initial stroke length/rear wheel travel.

    So taking 10mm out of a 2.5in (63.5mm) stroke shock reduces the rear wheel travel from 160mm to 135mm.

    ((63.5-10)/63.5) * 160 = 135 mm

    Your rear wheel travel is 135, not 150
    Actually you are correct and I am mistaken. My math skills are sub par. I told suspension experts to limit the travel of the bike to 150 or suspension travel by 10mm. That is not how much stroke they removed. Thank you for correcting me.
    2012 Ibis Mojo HD (155mm 650B)
    Yeti SB95 Carbon
    1993 Brodie Expresso
    RIP 1997 Santa Cruz Heckler.In 2010 the frame cracked

  16. #16
    Stupid is, as stupid does
    Reputation: spunkmtb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    412
    The way that I calculated how much to have the travel reduced was I let the air out of my rear shock. I took a sharpie marker & drew a line on the shaft of the stroke where bottom out was. Than I reset the o-ring and pushed down on the bike until I felt the rear tire was an except able distance towards the seat tube. I measured the difference between the sharpie mark and the o ring. I ended up with 10mm. I gave that number to Suspension Experts. How many millimeters they limited the travel by I do not know. I would have to ask. But the Derby write up shows how little it needs to be limited by.

    "I just wanted to clarify something - the bikeco setup uses a custom stroke and custom e2e in order to maximize the HDR travel to 147mm while keeping the BB level, afaik all the other options are shim only and compromise BB height. I would love to get a 147mm Monarch HDR without raising the BB but that doesn't seem to be available at the moment..."

    I do apologize for any confusion. I just wanted to try and help people out with the other options that I found out there. As far as the Bikeco custom i2i shaft. They never mentioned that to me over the phone when I contacted them. That was my experience. I recommend calling and asking them about that if you are interested in doing the mod. They never mentioned that to me on the phone. That was my experience.
    2012 Ibis Mojo HD (155mm 650B)
    Yeti SB95 Carbon
    1993 Brodie Expresso
    RIP 1997 Santa Cruz Heckler.In 2010 the frame cracked

  17. #17
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    95

    HDR/Mojo HD long travel 650B rear shock clarification

    Nice job starting an informative thread to help clear up any confusion and point out more options : )

    I am running the BikeCo Roco and it has been really impressive so far. Looking forward to getting this bike dialed even more once the snow melts and trails dry out.

    I have been meaning to write up a review of the BikeCo HDR 650b with some useful info. For now I guess I should mention (since I've seen it asked more than once) the measurements for the custom Roco. It's 8.35" eye-to-eye and stroke appears to be just under 2" (1.96" or so).

  18. #18
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    272
    Quote Originally Posted by conekilr View Post
    Nice job starting an informative thread to help clear up any confusion and point out more options : )

    I am running the BikeCo Roco and it has been really impressive so far. Looking forward to getting this bike dialed even more once the snow melts and trails dry out.

    I have been meaning to write up a review of the BikeCo HDR 650b with some useful info. For now I guess I should mention (since I've seen it asked more than once) the measurements for the custom Roco. It's 8.35" eye-to-eye and stroke appears to be just under 2" (1.96" or so).
    Hmmm interesting. wouldnt it take 2.25" stroke to achieve 147mm travel?

  19. #19
    mtbr member
    Reputation: doismellbacon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    1,900

    HDR/Mojo HD long travel 650B rear shock clarification

    Thanks for starting a really useful thread, spunk. There are some tuners on your list I wasn't aware of.

    Re. Stroke vs wheel travel....
    If you marked 10mm from the original bottom out point on the shock shaft with your wheel at the position you wanted to be the new bottom-out, and they delivered you a shock that bottoms at that desired wheel position, then they reduced your shock stroke by 10mm. The resulting reduction in actual travel measured at the wheel is going to be STROKE x RATE, with rate being how many mm the wheel moves for every 1 mm of shock stroke. I don't know what that rate is exactly in the latter part of the stroke on a HD160, but 2.0 is probably in the ballpark. I would love to hear a hard # if somebody knows it. If my estimate just happened to be exactly right, then your actual reduction in travel would be 10x2.0 = 20mm reduction, for final wheel travel of 140mm.
    I hope this is constructive and helps everybody's understanding.

    edit: After StiHacka shared the leverage curve, we know that it's more like 2.75 at the bottom end of the stroke.
    Last edited by doismellbacon; 02-21-2014 at 08:50 AM. Reason: corrected a dyslexic statement

  20. #20
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    420
    Just picked up a later model HD with 142x12 swing arm, and the slight increase in tire clearance.

    I'm looking to run it 650b and after looking at various options, I am going to try and run a 7.875 x 2.25 on it, with 140 limbo chips. This keeps the BB lower but should bump the travel up to about 143mm or so. Planning to run 2.25 NN in the rear, and I'm hoping it will clear with no additional shimming needed. I plan to use a 150mm 27.5 Pike, so front/rear travel will be close, and BB height is lower than with the 8.5 shock.

    Hoping this setup works with minimal modding. Gets close to the bike co numbers without having to get a custom shock. I think the limiting factor will be tire clearance, so for those who want to run big tires, it may not be an option.

  21. #21
    Dissolved member
    Reputation: StiHacka's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    3,496
    Just to add to what has been already said, another way to shorten a shock's i2i is using offset bushings.
    Here is your leverage ratio.

    This means that:
    * if you use a shorter shock or offset bushings (or 140mm limbo chips), the wheel travel gets reduced by 3.1x of the length difference at the start of its travel
    * if you force a shorter stroke (different shock, or bottom out spacers), the wheel travel gets reduced by 2.75x of the stroke difference at the end of its travel
    * reducing shock length or 140mm limbo will have an impact on the DW-Link antisquat and bike pedaling

  22. #22
    Stupid is, as stupid does
    Reputation: spunkmtb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    412
    Hey guys. Thanks for chiming in and helping out this thread with informative information!!!!

    I will try to give suspension experts a call today to find out how many MM they shimmed my shock by to give me 150mm rear wheel travel.
    2012 Ibis Mojo HD (155mm 650B)
    Yeti SB95 Carbon
    1993 Brodie Expresso
    RIP 1997 Santa Cruz Heckler.In 2010 the frame cracked

  23. #23
    Stupid is, as stupid does
    Reputation: spunkmtb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    412
    Quote Originally Posted by doismellbacon View Post
    Thanks for starting a really useful thread, spunk. There are some tuners on your list I wasn't aware of.

    Re. Stroke vs wheel travel....
    If you marked 10mm from the original bottom out point on the shock shaft with your wheel at the position you wanted to be the new bottom-out, and they delivered you a shock that bottoms at that desired wheel position, then they reduced your shock stroke by 10mm. The resulting reduction in actual travel measured at the wheel is going to be STROKE x RATE, with rate being how many mm the wheel moves for every 1 mm of shock stroke. I don't know what that rate is exactly in the initial part of the stroke on a HD160, but 2.0 is probably in the ballpark. I would love to hear a hard # if somebody knows it. If my estimate just happened to be exactly right, then your actual reduction in travel would be 10x2.0 = 20mm reduction, for final wheel travel of 140mm.
    I hope this is constructive and helps everybody's understanding.
    I'm a Respiratory Therapist by trade and I can save your life, with my eyes closed, while eating a bacon cheese burger, and have the TV blaring on the back ground. But when it comes to numbers......... Yikes, I am lost for those of you that understand this God bless you.

    Also I have read what you wrote about 10 times now. I know that I did the measurement on my rear shock. Than I called suspension experts and told them that I wanted to end up with a 150mm rear travel bike. That was my basic understanding of suspension reduction to keep the rear wheel from hitting the seat tube. I will be curious to call SE and see what they did.
    2012 Ibis Mojo HD (155mm 650B)
    Yeti SB95 Carbon
    1993 Brodie Expresso
    RIP 1997 Santa Cruz Heckler.In 2010 the frame cracked

  24. #24
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    420
    The variable leverage ratios definitely make shimming for clearance more difficult with different shocks, frame tolerances, and wheel/tire sizes. Lots of variables coming into play. Seems like most people end up using the try it an see method, measure, add shims, repeat...based on their particular setup.

    As far as climbing/pedaling performance in 140 vs. 160 mode what are the main differences between the two interns of anti squat, I assume this will also be affected by chainring size too?

  25. #25
    mtbr member
    Reputation: doismellbacon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    1,900
    Quote Originally Posted by StiHacka View Post
    Just to add to what has been already said, another way to shorten a shock's i2i is using offset bushings.
    Here is your leverage ratio.

    This means that:
    * if you use a shorter shock or offset bushings (or 140mm limbo chips), the wheel travel gets reduced by 3.1x of the length difference at the start of its travel
    * if you force a shorter stroke (different shock, or bottom out spacers), the wheel travel gets reduced by 2.75x of the stroke difference at the end of its travel
    * reducing shock length or 140mm limbo will have an impact on the DW-Link antisquat and bike pedaling
    Good stuff, Hacka! Where'd you come up with that leverage curve? And good save on my misstatement.... in Spunk's scenario he's limiting stroke at the bottom end of the travel, not the top. Will edit my post to avoid confusion.

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but an HD140 curve would look just like that, but with a little missing from both ends.... the pivot linkages control the rate and they're not changing when swapping shocks & limbo chips, but the 7.875/HD140 setup is working in the middle of the range of motion shown in the 160 graph. So the curve would be the same shape although truncated at both ends. No?

Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 06-26-2013, 05:24 PM
  2. Long Travel Chinese 650B
    By PaintPeelinPbody in forum 27.5 - 650b
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 01-12-2013, 05:25 AM
  3. LONG Travel 650b
    By 1971tch in forum 27.5 - 650b
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 08-15-2012, 03:26 PM
  4. Hoping for a long travel 650b
    By 1spd1way in forum 27.5 - 650b
    Replies: 18
    Last Post: 06-18-2012, 11:49 AM
  5. Long Travel 650b Hardtail
    By Evan Bacon in forum 27.5 - 650b
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 05-02-2012, 10:02 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •