Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 38

Thread: DW vrs VPP

  1. #1
    BMJ
    BMJ is offline
    "42 lbs and climbing!"
    Reputation: BMJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    1,003

    DW vrs VPP

    Can anyone tell me the difference between these systems?

    I'm currently riding VPP and I'm not fond of the way it works. How different is the DW system or is it more of the same?

    How does the "anti-squat" function mess with your pedal stroke in the granny on climbs? This is my main issue with my VPP.

    Thoughts?

  2. #2
    _dw
    _dw is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    1,270
    OK, first off, try out the search function. There is a HUGE amount of information out there on this subject.

    I've heard it suggested by a couple people on MTBR that anti-squat is tied directly to pedal feedback. This is a totally inaccurate statement made by people who really should be spending more time trying to understand how suspensions actually work than defending radical positions on the subject..

    To that end, the VPP bikes develop LESS anti squat than a dw-link, and have MORE perceptible pedal feedback. I think that many reviews that you will read, as well as the seat of your pants will support this.

    Give that search function a try.
    dw★link
    Split Pivot
    @daveweagle -Twitter

  3. #3
    flow where ever you go
    Reputation: noshortcuts's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    1,515
    I'll stick to seat of the pants assessments myself. On VPP bikes there is definite messing with pedal stroke under certain circumstances that seem to be influenced by chosen gear and perhaps shape of obstacle. There is NO perceptible messing with peddle stroke under any circumstances on dw-linked bikes.

    "I must not be crazy because I'm seriously questioning my sanity"

  4. #4
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    495

    ... and if we just ... Search On It Question Answered many Time On MTBR

    Oh no not again.
    Only question I want ask for awhile is where is my Moj SL ?

    I M H O with no mechanical introspection, ride feel for me is Vpp kicks pedals at me more but offers more kick forward and chain tension when I get out of the saddle which I do allot more single pivot like. Dwlink consistently more smooth and neutral with no perceptible pedal feedback though-out the stroke and smoother through the rocky stuff.
    Last edited by glovemtb; 12-19-2007 at 03:46 PM.

  5. #5
    flow where ever you go
    Reputation: noshortcuts's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    1,515
    Quote Originally Posted by glovemtb
    I M H O with no mechanical introspection, ride feel for me is Vpp kicks pedals at me more but offers more kick forward and chain tension when I get out of the saddle which I do allot more single pivot like. Dwlink consistently more smooth and neutral with no perceptible pedal feedback though-out the stroke and smoother through the rocky stuff.
    exactly
    Last edited by noshortcuts; 12-20-2007 at 09:51 AM.

    "I must not be crazy because I'm seriously questioning my sanity"

  6. #6
    Church of the Wheel
    Reputation: mtb143's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    743
    Quote Originally Posted by glovemtb
    Oh no not again.
    Perhaps if someone would spell it out and then make it a sticky this wouldn't keep coming up...that's what stickies are for, right?

  7. #7
    In dog years, I'm dead.
    Reputation: burtronix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    712
    Quote Originally Posted by mtb143
    Perhaps if someone would spell it out and then make it a sticky this wouldn't keep coming up...that's what stickies are for, right?
    And put the sticky on the DW-Link Forum.... uh.... What's that?.... uh.... There is no DW Forum? So I have to bounce back & forth between Ibis & Iron Horse forums to get the relevant DW discussion? I suppose when Pivot bikes start selling like hot-cakes we'll be spread out over 3 forums?
    Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might.... (Ecclesiastes 9:10)

  8. #8
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    495
    http://forums.mtbr.com/shocks-suspension/
    Really needed is a Suspension Design Forum to go with Frame Design Forum maybe.

  9. #9
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Posts
    556
    [QUOTE=_dw]
    the VPP bikes develop LESS anti squat than a dw-link, and have MORE perceptible pedal feedback. I think that many reviews that you will read, as well as the seat of your pants will support this.
    QUOTE]

    I will be moving from an Intense 5.5EVP to a Mojo soon, and I will be very interested to see the difference. The 5.5 has very noticable pedal kickback on rocky climbs in granny gear, however it sprints like a hardtail- the Mojo comparison will be fascinating!


  10. #10
    _dw
    _dw is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    1,270
    Quote Originally Posted by glovemtb
    http://forums.mtbr.com/forumdisplay.php?f=50
    Really needed is a Suspension Design Forum to go with Frame Design Forum maybe.
    I think that this could end up being a pretty big disservice to readers. There are not too many people on these forums who can accurately discuss suspensions, but there are quite a few who like to talk a big game. I think the end result would be just a forum littered with argumentative and bullheaded posts based less in reality than their tone would suggest. It would be really tough for the common reader to decide or understand what ideas presented are actual, and what ones are fictcious.. Just seems like trouble to me.
    dw★link
    Split Pivot
    @daveweagle -Twitter

  11. #11
    Church of the Wheel
    Reputation: mtb143's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    743
    Quote Originally Posted by _dw
    I think that this could end up being a pretty big disservice to readers. There are not too many people on these forums who can accurately discuss suspensions, but there are quite a few who like to talk a big game. I think the end result would be just a forum littered with argumentative and bullheaded posts based less in reality than their tone would suggest. It would be really tough for the common reader to decide or understand what ideas presented are actual, and what ones are fictcious.. Just seems like trouble to me.
    The questions about how things work, and why, and how one thing compares to another thing will always persist. Which is why a knowledgeable and accurate sticky that explains things would do much to prevent the lay speculation and anecdotal experience that others present in response to these questions.

    In the absence of a scientific approach and understanding of a phenomenon, that void will be replaced by an explanation that amounts to magic or superstition. I would rather have the scientific explanation. Even if it's at a high-school level of science, it's still science. And for the purposes of most of us on a forum such as this, the high-school level explanation would probably be most beneficial. Well, most beneficial for my dumb ass anyway

  12. #12
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    1,267

    explanations

    Here:
    http://www.ibiscycles.com/tech/dw_link/

    and here:
    http://www.dw-link.com/

    I think these are pretty good, but they don't get into the other systems out there and the differences. In short, we think that anti squat is the best way to deal with bob, others use shock damping.

    In the group of designs that utilize substantial anti squat to counter bobbing, we feel we've got the most effective application of anti squat and the least perceptable pedal feedback.

    The key word is perceptable and this is what is missing in the discussions. The absolute amount of chainstay lengthening effect is not actually directly convertable into what you feel at the pedals. It can be dramatically different. So that's why you see the divide between those who say the Mojo has xx amount of pedal feedback and those that say it has none or close to zero.

    By the way, from my perspective, DW seems to really know his stuff and I have never found him to be in error, but he will not always want to give the fully detailed explanation. I think he feels like he spent all those years figuring out this stuff and does not want to give it away. I understand his position and also those who want the curtain pulled back

    Test rides speak very well for the system. It kind of puts all the claims of superiority by nearly every company in perspective. There are claims and then there is what you feel as a rider. Since the claims end up just being a bunch of noise when taken all together, it seems to end up being the actual ride and word of mouth that is most influential.

    Have a great weekend and Holidaze,

    Hans
    Hans
    Ibis Cycles, Inc.

  13. #13
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Posts
    556
    As a guy who has studied suspension links in cars for literally decades, I think DW has explained himself very well. He has not really left anything much out, except to avoid long and complex lessons in basic physics and kinematics. I have also read his whole patent a few times.
    A critical point DW makes is that levers will behave as levers whether we know they are there, or notice their effect, or not.

    People will wonder what is different between, say, a VPP bike ( I have owned three so far) and DW link bike ( I have one on the way).

    In the end they were created to achieve similar things, but go about it in different ways.
    As a result they have different pros and cons: and I will be suprised if the DW link is not a better all around thing.
    Especially as my main gripe with my VPP bike is pedal kick back over rocks in granny gear......

  14. #14
    www.derbyrims.com
    Reputation: derby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    6,788
    Quote Originally Posted by BMJ
    Can anyone tell me the difference between these systems?

    I'm currently riding VPP and I'm not fond of the way it works. How different is the DW system or is it more of the same?

    How does the "anti-squat" function mess with your pedal stroke in the granny on climbs? This is my main issue with my VPP.

    Thoughts?
    I demoed 4 different VPP bikes from Intense and Santa Cruz while researching bikes with 4.5 – 6.6 inch travel to replace my 5 year luv’d Intense Tracer. The Tracer was a bike I found to bob very little and pedal very smooth on rough trails, grip and handle very well. It did have a small touch of noticeable sharp pedal kickback hitting repeated sharp bumps in the granny ring’s lowest two gears.

    The day I first demoed the 5.5 EVP at the Sea Otter Classic Expo in ’04 I also demoed an Iron Horse Hollowpoint dw-Link the same day. The difference in pedaling over the few rocky sections I found there while climbing was quite revealing. The longer travel 5.5 had a firm pedal reaction but still bobbed a little while the shorter 4.5 inch Hollowpoint just swallowed up the same sharp hits like butter and had nearly no bob when climbing smooth pavement. Downhill the 5.5 EVP was way more plush. But I wasn’t satisfied with either bike at the time as being big enough in improvement over my Tracer.

    Fast forward 2 years to Sea Otter in ’06 and I saw the spectacular Ibis Mojo with 5.5 inches of dw-Link. By then I’d demoed many other 5 – 6 inch travel bikes including other VPP’s, never fully satisfied that any would be a complete improvement without any loss in performance or handling quality of my Tracer. I had really liked the 575, 5-Spot, Moto-Lite, and Wolf Ridge and disliked the increasingly noticeable to me pedal jacking of the VPP bikes.

    I knew this Mojo with it’s 69/73 degree head/seat frame geometry had the handling I liked so much with the 5-Spot for this travel, the Mojo was almost a pound lighter then, and matched with the dw-Link was everything I was looking for in one bike. The only reservation I had was the durability of the carbon fiber frame and swingarm.

    I took a chance on the carbon fiber unknown durability for my AM type rough trail riding interests because I wanted to ride the most advanced suspension matched with the most balanced handling geometry I like for this travel. Now almost 2 years of production later the durability of the Mojo’s carbon fiber frame is well proven to be above all other’s of it’s weight and travel.

    To your questions:
    I'm currently riding VPP and I'm not fond of the way it works. How different is the DW system or is it more of the same?

    How does the "anti-squat" function mess with your pedal stroke in the granny on climbs? This is my main issue with my VPP.
    The VPP as you have noticed is smooth in bumps but produces a pedal stalling effect that when seated and climbing very rough bouncy deep travel can even stop the pedals turning when the suspension compresses more deeply. I felt like I needed to concentrate on overpowering the pedals to maintain momentum without stalling out. It was difficult to maintain a steady spin to endure rough climbs.

    I have felt no such stalling or cadence irregularity climbing the same and other rough trails with the Mojo or any of the 5 other dw-Link models I’ve demoed. There is even less bob than VPP, nearly none using even softer damped and smoother shocks when seated and climbing. I’ve never ridden any bike with less noticeable pedal feedback. When standing and climbing smooth pavement with VPP there is a very noticeable rise and collapse of the suspension with each standing pedal stroke. The dw-Link in the same smooth climbing situation does not rise and only compresses a little near the bottom of the standing pedal stroke, and sprinting with accelerating cadence while standing produces no noticeable bob. And the dw-link’s acceleration and ability to maintain momentum and traction easily up rough and loose terrain is unmatched in my experience.

    The dw-Link is nearly opposite in feel of the VPP. Again there is nearly no bob and no pedal jack or stalling when it’s smooth, and when rough and loose it’s creamy smooth pedaling up rough rocks and roots and easy to maintain momentum and accelerate with great traction.
    Last edited by derby; 12-22-2007 at 08:15 AM.

  15. #15
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    1,140
    The VPP as you have noticed is smooth in bumps but produces a pedal stalling effect that when seated and climbing very rough bouncy deep travel can even stop the pedals turning when the suspension compresses more deeply. I felt like I needed to concentrate on overpowering the pedals to maintain momentum without stalling out. It was difficult to maintain a steady spin to endure rough climbs.
    Sounds like you are describing single pivot. I never found it quite that bad. It's not as smooth as dw-link on a mojo, but still is a pretty smooth ride compared to most single pivot bikes. IMHO anyways...as I'm one of the one's that dw talks about who misleads readers cause I'm not a suspension genius. I'm one of the guys Hans talks about who just doesn't worry about it too much and rides by the seat of his pants. Just joking. Edit again, Gosh, if I can't write I guess I shouldn't post an opinion.
    Last edited by ghawk; 01-02-2008 at 05:06 AM. Reason: I'm not literate

  16. #16
    BMJ
    BMJ is offline
    "42 lbs and climbing!"
    Reputation: BMJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    1,003

    I agree with Derby.

    I've riden a GT LTS for many years (Horst), a Cannondale Jekyle for many years (kinda low single pivot) and currently a Nomad. I found varying amounts of pedal feedback in all three systems. The GT had the least of the bunch. I believe it's pedal feedback may have been due to the highish main pivot by the bottom bracket. The slightly higher main pivot location of the Jeckyle was more of an issue when climbing in the granny but I find the VPP to be the most annoying.

    Everything that Derby observed in his tests of various VPP bikes are what I hate most about riding my bike! I was hoping that it was going to be the next best thing! The next step to the Horst link systems. Not so in my opinion.

    I find it interesting that some posts on these forums keep insisting that this effect doesn't exist when I'm reading more and more peoples posts that agree with this complaint.

    Some say that it's user error when setting up the shock or poor choice in the shock by manufacturers and they may be right. IMO this only enhances the flaw in the system, the flaw is still there though. If one is required to set an exact sag amount while rolling on flat pavement, what happens to that setting when your all over the bike in varying off road terrain. Weight shifts and terrain changes throw that exact setting out the window.
    What works well coasting along on a baby head strewn flat won't work well when that same baby head trail goes vertical. Weight shifts back and compresses the rear past it's sag point and chain tension works harder to bring it in line which turns into rise and fall of the rear of the bike, pedal kickback, extra effort to overcome trail obstacles and in some cases a complete stall on a step up. Not fun!

    I'm curious to see how exacting this setting has to be on a DW set up. Is this less of an issue since it's an "anti-squat" set-up? Will this be less effected by weight shifts?

    I'm getting out of the VPP ASAP! Maybe another Horst four bar or DW-link. Not sure what I'll end up with yet. Maybe which ever shows up at my door first.

  17. #17
    In dog years, I'm dead.
    Reputation: burtronix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    712
    Quote Originally Posted by _dw
    I think that this could end up being a pretty big disservice to readers. There are not too many people on these forums who can accurately discuss suspensions, but there are quite a few who like to talk a big game. I think the end result would be just a forum littered with argumentative and bullheaded posts based less in reality than their tone would suggest. It would be really tough for the common reader to decide or understand what ideas presented are actual, and what ones are fictcious.. Just seems like trouble to me.
    All of that is already going on anyway (as you probably know better than anybody). Now it is spread out all over the place & the people who can give accurate & cogent arguments & rebuttals may or may not see & respond to all the sporadic misinformative (unintentional or otherwise) posts. If it were all in one place, the pros & cons would be easier to weigh.
    Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might.... (Ecclesiastes 9:10)

  18. #18
    Church of the Wheel
    Reputation: mtb143's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    743
    Quote Originally Posted by burtronix
    All of that is already going on anyway (as you probably know better than anybody). Now it is spread out all over the place & the people who can give accurate & cogent arguments & rebuttals may or may not see & respond to all the sporadic misinformative (unintentional or otherwise) posts. If it were all in one place, the pros & cons would be easier to weigh.
    Exactly. And then you wouldn't get people re-asking the same questions and the inevitable "Here we go again. Don't you know how to use the search function?" responses.

  19. #19
    www.derbyrims.com
    Reputation: derby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    6,788
    Quote Originally Posted by mtb143
    Exactly. And then you wouldn't get people re-asking the same questions and the inevitable "Here we go again. Don't you know how to use the search function?" responses.
    The MTBR Shocks forum has long been the place where most of the suspension design questions come up. That forum was very active in theory discussions about 5 years ago with threads under a new post covering many pages sometimes. There was much flaming and name calling batted back and forth among a few. Actual advanced physics students and teachers and professional mechanical engineers would try to participate, but most of the more knowledgeable people would stop participating quickly after the aggressive flamer types piled their crap upon them.

    I think if you post a question or propose a theory there in the "Shocks" forum now you will get some interest.

    The extremes in suspension designs back then have been reduced some since then. Bikes are much more common in suspension design now mostly very subtle in difference with the wheel rate as the biggest difference other than shock type and quality. There are a few designs since the dw-Link that still that venture into uncommon link configurations, such as the Felt Equilink, Marin/Whyte Quad-Link, Haro Virtual-Link.

  20. #20
    Church of the Wheel
    Reputation: mtb143's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    743
    All I'm saying is that many people curious about DW-Link ask the comparative question to try to get a grip on it, and that posting that info in a sticky would prevent both the re-asking of the question, and the response of frustration from some in the forum. I don't understand why this hasn't been done yet. That's what stickies are for - standardized answers to the usual questions - right? It wouldn't even have to be something completely from scratch, but could be a collection of links to all the pertinent information, e.g. http://www.dw-link.com/ Just my two cents.

    On another note, Mr. Derby, sir, you are a fount of information, and I am oft surprised at your patience in explaining and re-explaining matters of interest. Thank you for your efforts.

  21. #21
    Trail Rider
    Reputation: Quattro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    915
    [quote=BMJ}
    I'm curious to see how exacting this setting has to be on a DW set up. Is this less of an issue since it's an "anti-squat" set-up? Will this be less effected by weight shifts?[/quote]


    I've owned a GT LTS ,C'dale single pivot,and Intense Tracer and I've ridden a Blur and 5.5. I didn't feel the kickback on the VPPs that I rode, but I didn't spend a too much time evaluating them. My buddy, who is a road rider and former HT rider, really likes the pedal feedback of his Blur. It reminds him of his HT with suspension. He also had a Basso(I believe that was the brand) Ti AMP clone which doesn't have as much travel as his Blur (which he prefers). He does a lot more out of the saddle sprints while climbing.

    I was always was able to adapt to different design quirks of the bikes I've owned and really get the most out of them. I really like the DW suspension the best so far, because it seems to combine the best qualities of the different designs into one bike. It does however, work the best at 25% sag. Anything on either side gives you a different feel. The Mojo's weight center feels to be right on the saddle. You really don't need to move much, either out of the saddle or in, toward either end, to enjoy excellent balance and traction. That took some getting used to as I was used to moving way up to the tip of the saddle on steep climbs, and way back behind the saddle on the DH runs. The feel of the DW bikes is just right for me. I like it better with each ride. The hardest thing, for me is to really push it over a technical rocky climb. I'm always worried about the thought of crashing the thing on the rocks(which I have, and the bike came out with no damage.) That's more than I can say about myself.
    [size=4]Don[/size]

  22. #22
    www.derbyrims.com
    Reputation: derby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    6,788
    Quote Originally Posted by BMJ
    ...Weight shifts back and compresses the rear past it's sag point and chain tension works harder to bring it in line which turns into rise and fall of the rear of the bike, pedal kickback, extra effort to overcome trail obstacles and in some cases a complete stall on a step up.
    The dw-Link doesn't squat the frame rearward and lower in sag when climbing unlike nearly every other design. It also doesn't bob or jack or kickback or stall, but does swallow bumps while climbing better than most others.

    You can set your sag on the Mojo to balance your handling. I've found there is not much difference in pedaling efficiency and still no bob with travel between 25 and 30 percent sag. With much less than 20% sag there is a bit of sharper feedback climbing sharp bumps in the pedals in the lowest granny gears. The dw-Link prefers 25% or deeper sag for the smoothest pedaling bump compliance with no pedal bob when the trail is smooth.

  23. #23
    the 36 year old grom
    Reputation: demo_slug's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    2,726
    Quote Originally Posted by _dw
    I've heard it suggested by a couple people on MTBR that anti-squat is tied directly to pedal feedback. This is a totally inaccurate statement.....
    count me as one of those people.

  24. #24
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Posts
    556
    Pedal feedback has a whole lot to do with chain length variation.

    Draw a few pictures and get out a ruler if you have any lingering doubts

    Anti squat relates directly to the effective virtual pivot center, which is a different thing ..

  25. #25
    the 36 year old grom
    Reputation: demo_slug's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    2,726
    Quote Originally Posted by robbieracer
    Pedal feedback has a whole lot to do with chain length variation.

    Draw a few pictures and get out a ruler if you have any lingering doubts

    Anti squat relates directly to the effective virtual pivot center, which is a different thing ..
    thanks robbie. but, I'm more then aware of the distinction between chain growth and anti squat. I'm a former 4x4 nut and muscle car geek , anti squat is not a new concept to me.

Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •