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  1. #1
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    Any RP23, DHX Air comparisons-other shocks?

    Has anyone compared the RP23 to DHX Air? I am looking for a new shock (or possibly pushing a shock). I currently have an RP23 and bottom out a lot unless I reduce the sag more than I would like for small bump compliance. I ride very rocky terrain and weigh 175lbs with gear. I have never used the propedal. Since I am currently converting to a more all-mountain build I am not as concerned about weight and would like a shock that's a bit smoother for small rocks AND square big-hit situations. I was thinking of the DHX Air for it's bottom out resistance or possibly a coil and dealing with the extra weight. On the front I will be converting to a talas 36. Any suggestions?

    Thanks
    Last edited by ecibis; 04-04-2008 at 05:50 PM.

  2. #2
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    Coil shock will definitely be plusher then air shocks but you be prepared to add hundred of grams (about 100 - 200+ depending on model).

    The most famous is Fox DHX Coil and if you don't need that much adjustment, go for Fox Van Coil. If you want the ultimate coil shock, get CaneCreek DoubleBarrel shock (custom tuned for your frame, how good is that?), costs a fortune but Im sure its worth it, RSutton is using it ask him .

    If Im building a Mojo or Mojo SL, the chances of me upgrading to coil shock is very high, not sure if I should stick with a 130 20mm Minute or not. Haha, only in my dreams though. The strength of a Mojo and Mojo SL should be the same even though the SL is lighter weight due to because it uses different hardwares and the weight reduced from Ultra High Modulus and High Modulus carbon fibre is minimal,
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by wheelhot
    Coil shock will definitely be plusher then air shocks but you be prepared to add hundred of grams (about 100 - 200+ depending on model).

    The most famous is Fox DHX Coil and if you don't need that much adjustment, go for Fox Van Coil. If you want the ultimate coil shock, get CaneCreek DoubleBarrel shock (custom tuned for your frame, how good is that?), costs a fortune but Im sure its worth it, RSutton is using it ask him .

    If Im building a Mojo or Mojo SL, the chances of me upgrading to coil shock is very high, not sure if I should stick with a 130 20mm Minute or not. Haha, only in my dreams though. The strength of a Mojo and Mojo SL should be the same even though the SL is lighter weight due to because it uses different hardwares and the weight reduced from Ultra High Modulus and High Modulus carbon fibre is minimal,
    on a mojo? how is that possible? it doesn't fit a mojo until, like, just now. it didn't fit mojo's so he must ride a different bike

  4. #4
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    Oh okay, I made a mistake, that must be a different bike, but maybe if a lot of Mojo owners contact CaneCreek for the DB Shock, they might consider into redesigning it to fit onto the Mojo. You are thinking of getting one mx?
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  5. #5
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    You might want to consider the Manitou Evolver isx6. It is getting rave reviews and is said to be the best air shock going right now. The Evolver is also cheaper than the dhx air and is a better shock.

  6. #6
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    Derby test the new DT shock and compares it to the RP23 and the DHXA in this thread:

    Dt Swiss SSD Carbon shock review

    I think Derby has written some more about when he tested the DHXA in some other thread, but I can't find it right now,

  7. #7
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    PUSH it if you can (long)

    Quote Originally Posted by mordor
    Derby test the new DT shock and compares it to the RP23 and the DHXA in this thread:

    Dt Swiss SSD Carbon shock review

    I think Derby has written some more about when he tested the DHXA in some other thread, but I can't find it right now,
    It's been almost 2 years since I demoed a DHX-A on my Mojo. In our mostly smoother rolling terrain in Nor-Cal I was never able to use full travel with the '06 RP23, perhaps the newer versions are damped differently but mine felt over-damped and the travel didn't seem as plush as I'd expect going from a 4.5 inch travel bike to a 5.5 bike.

    The DHX-A was able to use full travel and was able to be adjusted with less platform and was noticeably more active and plush and smoother hitting rocks for me than the RP23.

    I would imagine that if you are not having less than full travel problem with your RP23 then a PUSH tune would produce the best air shock action specific to the Mojo and your riding conditions, and you could get special Propedal settings that when switched on be wider in range from mild to much firmer in the 3 setting than the range of the stock propedal settings.

    Before the Mojo I had ridden the best Horst-link bike I ever found for trail riding, the Intense Tracer, with a stock 2002 Vanilla-R (before propedal). And I'd never got any air shock to feel as smooth and flowing hitting rocks in the trail, and I like being able to change pre-load quickly along the trail for different conditions. I found an early model Vanilla-R (no-propedal) and rode that for about 6 months while looking for an early Vanilla-RC. I preferred the simple low end Vanilla-R more than the DHX-A for small bump feel, otherwise the DHX-A action was very similar as I had it adjusted for my interests with minimum compression damping and maximum travel with mild rebound damping for stability.

    I finally found a 2002 Vanilla-RC used, and being well used it was even smoother than the Vanilla-R. I sent it to PUSH for my first PUSH tune and was blown away at the improvement in damping stability and range of usable damping. I could never ad more than a click in of compression with the stock RC without getting into a harsh spiking feel on sharper bumps. PUSH’d rebound is just as stable too but allows the travel to return more quickly. The quality was better than I was able to adjust my stock Nixon Elite coil, I looked around for expert fine tuner for the Nixon, but there are none that I have found who did more than a cleaning and stock rebuild. So I bought a fork that PUSH would tune, a new Vanilla RLC and it cam back as a noticeable damping improvement well matched to the tuned RC shock. But I missed the stiffer more precise handling of the Nixon, but the PUSH fork's damping quality was so much better I didn't go back to the Nixon.

    Recently PUSH has started offering full tunes for some Rockshox forks and Marzocci Roco shocks. So I got a PIKE 454 u-turn coil and just got it back from PUSH and will ride it for the first time today, so I can't report on it yet other than it does not have preload adjust and it feels like it has more rebound damping at minimum than the minimum Vanilla RLC, it should be free enough, and the lateral wheel stiffness is very much improved at the cost of 1/2 pound added weight.

    The Cane Creek Double Barrel is reported to be great for bikes needing and riders liking moderate to firm slow speed compression help for good pedaling and handling stability. The DW-Link should work well with moderate compression damping if you prefer that, but some riders including myself prefer very free compression damping. I'd like to test a CCDB on a DW-Link bike to confirm what the long hydraulic circuit should produce in limited ability to free compression. Somewhere it was mentioned the CCDB does not fit the Mojo - strange because the Mojo has plenty of room for other shocks with a reservoir chamber, maybe the spring perch is too close to the mount to clear.

    If I was buying a new coil (or air) shock now I'd call PUSH and see what shocks they are doing with now and go with one they tune. The well accepted piston and shim-stack tuned shocks can be tuned to eliminate all compression damping if desired, unlike the CCDB design. The new RockShox Vivid has external low and high speed compression and rebound damping adjusters and preload and replaceable bump stops to adjust bottom out progression. If PUSH tunes that shock with custom piston and shim stacks I couldn't imagine a better shock for a DW-Link. Also the Roco WC (or TST for propedal like on the fly major platform adjust) with a PUSH tune would most likely be subtly if not noticeably superior to the CCDB's greater flow resistance and shimmed-valve emulator design. PUSH also has a partner in England doing international orders for the same PUSH specification shock tunes.

    Edit: I Just got back from my first ride with the PUSH’e Rockshox Pike fork. It gave an amazing difference in steering precision and perceived stiffness of the whole frame feel through the seat. I still have to take the time to better dial in damping which is very similar to the compliance as my previous Vanilla RLC 140. I ended my first ride with about one turn in from full open rebound, and compression wide open with open “floodgate” which I’ll have to learn about.

    The Pike’s stock spring rated for average weight 140 – 160 lbs riders felt right for my 200 lbs. (I guess springs are all rated for 5 – 10 foot drops to flat) ad feels slightly more progressive in shallow travel compared to the Vanilla. I’ve got about the same 1 ¼ inch sag and total travel used as with the Vanilla on the same trail, but it felt slightly firmer with less standing bob, probably due to needing breaking in, as I noticed the PUSH’d new Vanilla RLC got even smoother and felt more plush and could more easily use increased damping without feeling too firm after about 4 months of use.

    The stiffness is immensely improved, stiffer than the Nixon Elite w/ 20mm axle ever felt on the Mojo, it feels like a much quicker handling bike with far more confidence especially in very rocky sections. I adjusted the PUSH tuned RC shock to balance the ride handing by adding 1 click firmer rebound and eventually adding a half click in more compression damping after trying 1 full click.

    The Pike’s crown height is about 3 mm higher fully extended to “140mm” than the non-adjustable travel Vanilla. So I used the U-Turn and adjusted it down a full turn and a half to about the 135mm mark on the stansion for a comfortable climbing and tight trail handling feel and raised it up for the steeper downhill with my adjustable seat post lowered an inch. For less steep downhill leaving the fork at 135mm and lowering the seat an inch felt very tight and nimble handling. The U-Turn fork height and adjustable seat height combo will be really fun to learn about.
    Last edited by derby; 04-06-2008 at 09:40 AM.

  8. #8
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    I would second Derby's comments on the Push factory tune for the RP23.
    I lack derby's technical expertise on the subject and as such hope I can do this shock justice in my layman's terms.
    I thought my Mojo was the greatest bike I had ever ridden.
    I'm a recovering XC freak and have been delving deeper into this new fad called All-Mountain riding. I live in the front range of CO and as such when I ride I go up just as much as I go down so it does me no good to have a bike that flies downhill if it's an anchor on the way up.
    My mojo started out impressive, the best I'd ever ridden. My previous bike was a specialized stumpjumper with a PUSH tuned FLOAT. I had no idea how profound this difference was until last year while on a trip I had a mechanical issue with my mojo that forced me back onto a rental stumpy. I cursed it with every pedal stroke- not because it was a bad bike.. in fact I think the stumpy is a effective, proven design. But because it wasn't my mojo. The difference was as profound to me as swapping from a FS bike to my hard-tail SSer.
    While the differences since PUSH got ahold of my shock are more subtle, they are just as profound.
    I use a little less travel, in that somehow I bottom out less but it FEELS like I have a couple extra inches back there. It's not that I feel like suddenly I can huck bigger drops with abandon. I'm riding the same stuff I rode before but I do think I'm riding it faster. I told that to Darren and he laughed saying something about a 1mph guarantee. But my GPS doesn't lie and on my fav local downhill I am consistently faster. Sounds ridiculous.
    I attribute this to an enhanced ability to stick like a twelve inch pin. Traction is awesome and I feel myself cornering a little bit faster, so much so that I am now overdriving my fork and washing it out in places that I never had before using the same tires and in the same conditions. But still faster. Over the little jumps I take it feels like the bike recovers better and I have to compensate for the recoil less (it bucks me less...) and when I land I feel the bike sticking better.
    Uphill it seems to track the little bumps for traction but resists getting deeper into the travel until I hit something worthy of more action. Almost like a brain but more reactive.... like what I wanted the Brain shock to function like when I demo'd one a couple years ago. But that is neither here nor there.
    In the very least... PUSH can tune your shock for you, whereas when they come from the factory they have to cater to the vast masses of consumers out there. PUSH makes your shock yours.
    **** censorship

  9. #9
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    A push might be the way to go...

    I'll call PUSH and see what they think. Sounds like they will certainly know what the best solution is for what I am looking for. The DHX as a stock shock sounds like it may be better for the rock gardens etc. around here but buying a used one would be more than pushing my rp23 so I'll see what Darren says as far as performance. If I got the DHX I would probably end up pushing it in the future, but if I can get away without the expense, I would like to get a new set of wheels! Also, a coil may be overkill for me but if I luck out and find an inexpensive used one I could always have it as a alternate to a pushed RP23 for the days where I go to the rougher places.

    Thanks for your suggestions....

  10. #10
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    Doesn't look like they Push DHX's...

    So I guess it would be between a coil and an RP23 if I want to keep the PUSh option available...now is the time for me to do this. I'll be going to AZ at the end of May and after a bad bike crash I am on the couch for the next month. I would hate to give up the shock when I am better!

  11. #11
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    sutton's running a ccdb on his ventana. the mojo he borrowed had a pushed rp23, i believe.
    ride fast...take chances...

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by derby
    Somewhere it was mentioned the CCDB does not fit the Mojo - strange because the Mojo has plenty of room for other shocks with a reservoir chamber, maybe the spring perch is too close to the mount to clear.
    correct.

    problem solved now. they just finally got the new spring seat anodized. it's good to go. mine is coming next week.

    wait, what's that...oohhh, bummer. too bad my frame is still in china land.

    at least i can sleep next to my CCDB!



    mx

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by derby
    PUSH tune would most likely be subtly if not noticeably superior to the CCDB's greater flow resistance and shimmed-valve emulator design. PUSH also has a partner in England doing international orders for the same PUSH specification shock tunes.
    but how do you know how much the compression can or can't be opened up if you never rode with one on the ibis mojo?

  14. #14
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    So you are planning to put the CCDB on your Mojo (if possible that is) MX? or you are planning to do some modifications in it to make it fit onto the Mojo?
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by mx_599
    but how do you know how much the compression can or can't be opened up if you never rode with one on the ibis mojo?
    I'm very much interested in riding a Mojo with a CCDB! Of course I don't really know their performance without riding for myself. Theoretically, by having a sealed piston and a long hydraulic flow distance running throughout the body and reservoir even with no damping valve restriction, the CCDB must have greater minimal damping than a conventional shimmed piston with no valve restrictions moving the oil flow virtually zero distance other than minimally funneling through the piston’s wide open ports. And the early CCDB rider reports when it was first introduced said it's not as free of compression damping when adjusted maximum soft than some of the freest previous such as the older Vanilla RC and Avalanche shocks. Avalanche shocks are custom tuned by the one-man or very small team operation with every new purchase for the customer, similarly to what PUSH does for the aftermarket of a few brand’s models.

    Even if it doesn't have the freest compression (or rebound) damping potential, the CCDB should be far smoother than any air shock or platform coil shock such as the DHX-Coil or SVP type and have superior damping and tuning control than most new shocks.

    I like adjustability range to be able to go from noticeably too soft through too firm than I want. And I like very minimal low speed compression for my mostly smoother trail conditions that don't often sharply punch through low speed damping except at higher riding speeds and jump landings. Most riders like firmer damping and spring than I do as seen by all the happy riders on stock RP23's and other platform shocks.

  16. #16
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    Wow, imagine combination of DW-Link + CCDB....scary, will totally give advantage to the rider in a competition
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  17. #17
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    Anyone know what the coil shock in the photo half way down this post is? It's not a CCDB but looks similar in size?

    Ibis Mojo Review by MTBTrailReview.com

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by HeezaGeeza
    Anyone know what the coil shock in the photo half way down this post is? It's not a CCDB but looks similar in size?

    Ibis Mojo Review by MTBTrailReview.com
    Scratch that, it seems reading further into the post it is a CCDB, but the OP doesn't seem to state categorically that it is. I'm hoping to swap a Nomad for Mojo and if I can pick up a CCDB it will make it all the more appealing now (not that I needed any encouragement before really).

  19. #19
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    well you can email CaneCreek and ask them if there is any way into fitting a CCDB onto a Mojo.
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by wheelhot
    So you are planning to put the CCDB on your Mojo (if possible that is) MX? or you are planning to do some modifications in it to make it fit onto the Mojo?
    yes.

    no to modifications. they have the part now. it has only come available in the past week or two. it was supposed to be done earlier this winter, but that latest trend is to delay stuff longer and longer and longer....

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by derby
    I'm very much interested in riding a Mojo with a CCDB! Of course I don't really know their performance without riding for myself. Theoretically, by having a sealed piston and a long hydraulic flow distance running throughout the body and reservoir even with no damping valve restriction, the CCDB must have greater minimal damping than a conventional shimmed piston with no valve restrictions moving the oil flow virtually zero distance other than minimally funneling through the piston’s wide open ports. And the early CCDB rider reports when it was first introduced said it's not as free of compression damping when adjusted maximum soft than some of the freest previous such as the older Vanilla RC and Avalanche shocks. Avalanche shocks are custom tuned by the one-man or very small team operation with every new purchase for the customer, similarly to what PUSH does for the aftermarket of a few brand’s models.
    interesting. i tend to not like too much compression dampening on my suspension either. i wonder if the ccdb guys have any internal adj they can make to at least compensate a little bit for their inherent design.

    i will call monday and ask; hopefully before they have mine already built up.

    wasn't it you that talked about the piston having a "blow off" valve for very large impacts or high speed ones?

    also, they DID NOT change the piston for oil flow as was mentioned somewhere in an old post as well. he made it sound like they made some internal changes primarily for longevity reasons.

    should be fun!

    mx

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by HeezaGeeza
    Scratch that, it seems reading further into the post it is a CCDB, but the OP doesn't seem to state categorically that it is. I'm hoping to swap a Nomad for Mojo and if I can pick up a CCDB it will make it all the more appealing now (not that I needed any encouragement before really).
    what post number are you referring too? are you saying that is a mojo with a CCDB?

    if it is, i don't know how he fit it on there. he must have modified the frame. did i miss a ride report on the mojo with a CCDB? (zzsean?)

    mx

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by mx_599
    interesting. i tend to not like too much compression dampening on my suspension either. i wonder if the ccdb guys have any internal adj they can make to at least compensate a little bit for their inherent design.

    i will call monday and ask; hopefully before they have mine already built up.

    wasn't it you that talked about the piston having a "blow off" valve for very large impacts or high speed ones?

    also, they DID NOT change the piston for oil flow as was mentioned somewhere in an old post as well. he made it sound like they made some internal changes primarily for longevity reasons.

    should be fun!

    mx
    I hope you get your SL soon and can give us a ride report. The CCDB will be a great shock and you could be the first to be able to review it on a Mojo.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by derby
    I hope you get your SL soon and can give us a ride report. The CCDB will be a great shock and you could be the first to be able to review it on a Mojo.
    hahahah
    thanks derby!

    i'll have the shock next week with no bike! i am sure someone will beat me to it who has a bike all set to go. oh well, it's not a race.

    tons of freaking hold ups. even the 20mm thru axle manitou is not available yet

    unfortunately, i wouldn't be a good reviewer for you guys because i have not ridden the other shocks...but i'll gladly tell you all how great the CCDB is! (with a grain of salt)

    mx

  25. #25
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    20mm thru axle manitou is not available yet
    Sweet, which Manitou are your referring to? Minute?
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