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  1. #1
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    650b HD / 160mm travel...another way to skin the cat

    put in a handful of rides on this setup and submitting it here for your consideration. I've posted about hybrid setups before...going back to 2008 when I was experimenting with 650b front / 26" rear on my Mojo SL. I'm a big fan of the 650b wheel size...thought I really dig all the sizes...did a truly epic ride yesterday on my ripley and just totally dig that bike.

    I've kept my HD frame because I like the white...and I have the retrofit swingarm on order...and, like many of you, I'm hoping for a longer travel variant of the 650b hd in the future...

    I've run the HD as a 26/160 and in full 650b mode...but I'm kinda digging this hybrid setup. It's 650b up front with a 150mm Pike (long-time fox-only guy here and gotta give some respect to this fork...don't know how well it will hold up but it feels fantastic) and a 26" rear with full 160mm travel. I'm running meaty hans dampf 2.35's on both ends. the rear still flicks and kicks the way 26ers do and the front gives the extra diam / circumference to aid in chewing up gnar...all-in-all a pretty darn fun bike to ride set up like this.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 650b HD / 160mm travel...another way to skin the cat-img_2211.jpg  

    650b HD / 160mm travel...another way to skin the cat-img_2212.jpg  


  2. #2
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    Very nice. Who's to say this isn't the best setup?

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by hillharman View Post
    Very nice. Who's to say this isn't the best setup?
    Yeah, no kidding! I still prefer my SL-B with the 26" rear for more DH oriented rides....like you said, Riderup, "still flicks and kicks".... keeps the bb low, the travel long and the tire clearance high. I think it's the best looking setup too....maybe coming from dirt bikes, or maybe it really is some inherent golden wheel ratio... just looks right.

  4. #4
    screamer
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    Interesting! I'm assuming that's the 27.5 version pike, so approx. 544mm A-C at 150mm travel?

    When you have a chance it'd be interesting to hear your head angle & BB heights. Granted, the significance of these numbers gets blown way out of proportion, but I'm curious to compare it to other HD setups.

    Some day when I have spare time on my hands (ie: never) I'll whip up a infographic with all the various HD/HD-R variants out there, a sort of Mojo species taxonomy. Must be dozens by now!
    On heavy rotation: White Lung: Deep Fantasy

  5. #5
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    Yep, would also like to hear BB height and HA.
    I'm always looking for new people to ride with. If you are on the Front Range, shoot me a PM and let's go ridin'.

  6. #6
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    But, but, but the wheel stickers don't match! Honestly this setup should be killer. I may put something together in a month or two on my HDR since I have all the parts.

  7. #7
    Team Chilidog!
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    That's pretty cool. If I did the B6er, I would put a Vengeance on the front since it can run 650B and 26" with a 20mm TA. I wouldn't have to change my wheelset initially and could prolly borrow a wheel that way to check it out.
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  8. #8
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    bb height is just a tad under 14" as best as I can measure. not sure of HT angle but given the a-t-c of the 150mm pike (and, yes, it's a 650b specific version) versus the a-t-c of the 160mm 36 float I was running with the 26" setup, and the similarity in actual tire sizes (since I was running the hans dampf 2.35 on the 26 setup too) it should be VERY similar to the stock 26" setup. It feels, and looks, similar to me. I'm most interested in how it feels and it does feel really good from a geo perspective. I like things a little steeper than some folks (examples, I always ran my mojo's and sl's with 130mm forks versus 140mm...I think my ripley would be best at 130mm - in a fox 34 - I've run both 34mm 140 and 32mm 120 - and I'd run my HD with a 180 float and an adjusted 170 float...but, ultimately came back to the 160 for geo preferences)
    It doesn't feel 'lacking' in front end travel partly because the Pike is so supple versus my 36 float and gets through it's travel better. And you add the slightly-more-than 1" actual gain in wheel size diameter (it's really not a full 1.5 between the 26 dampf and 27.5 dampf on the rims I have)...the front seems extremely capable and surprisingly well-balanced with the rear.

    Last note on BB height...while it is lower that it was with the full 650b setup and higher than in the 26" setup it FEELS a lot closer to the 26" setup while on the bike. I think it has something to do with the feeling of sitting over the smaller 26 and the way it digs into berms, etc...I know it's not scientific but when I rode the full 650b setup I felt the bb height was a bit too high for my taste...not so with this setup...and I have a hard time believing that I'm really that sensitive to it.

    And....good catch on the stickers ;-)
    I'd converted my 26's to the black stickers (I like the look better) but it was kind of a PIA so I haven't yet proceeded to convert some of the other sets I have.

  9. #9
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    Cool. Bike looks great. "sets of Enves" ... my CC hurts just thinking about that statement

    Nice refresh on the 27.5/26 concept with the Pike 150. derby had some insights early in his HD 650B conversion thread (a couple years ago) that I had totally forgotten about until you posted, but net-net you get alot of the 650B benefit but with the BBH we all like and full travel.

    On paper you should gain ~ 10mm in the front end because of the 12.5mm larger 650B rim and slightly shorter fork vs a Fox 36 which puts you at effectively the same geo as a Lyrik 170 (~ 66.5HA and ~14" BBH). Damn now I have to go try it for myself.

    -Shane



    Quote Originally Posted by riderup View Post
    bb height is just a tad under 14" as best as I can measure. not sure of HT angle but given the a-t-c of the 150mm pike (and, yes, it's a 650b specific version) versus the a-t-c of the 160mm 36 float I was running with the 26" setup, and the similarity in actual tire sizes (since I was running the hans dampf 2.35 on the 26 setup too) it should be VERY similar to the stock 26" setup. It feels, and looks, similar to me. I'm most interested in how it feels and it does feel really good from a geo perspective. I like things a little steeper than some folks (examples, I always ran my mojo's and sl's with 130mm forks versus 140mm...I think my ripley would be best at 130mm - in a fox 34 - I've run both 34mm 140 and 32mm 120 - and I'd run my HD with a 180 float and an adjusted 170 float...but, ultimately came back to the 160 for geo preferences)
    It doesn't feel 'lacking' in front end travel partly because the Pike is so supple versus my 36 float and gets through it's travel better. And you add the slightly-more-than 1" actual gain in wheel size diameter (it's really not a full 1.5 between the 26 dampf and 27.5 dampf on the rims I have)...the front seems extremely capable and surprisingly well-balanced with the rear.

    Last note on BB height...while it is lower that it was with the full 650b setup and higher than in the 26" setup it FEELS a lot closer to the 26" setup while on the bike. I think it has something to do with the feeling of sitting over the smaller 26 and the way it digs into berms, etc...I know it's not scientific but when I rode the full 650b setup I felt the bb height was a bit too high for my taste...not so with this setup...and I have a hard time believing that I'm really that sensitive to it.

    And....good catch on the stickers ;-)
    I'd converted my 26's to the black stickers (I like the look better) but it was kind of a PIA so I haven't yet proceeded to convert some of the other sets I have.
    Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic
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  10. #10
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    Can you download an angle finder app on your phone and let us know what the HA is?

  11. #11
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    got some 'data' for you on that...

    I think I'm close to net zero in terms of front end from where I was with the fox 36 160 26" but I don't have that setup built....BUT...since you mentioned the Lyrik 170 setup and I figured I'd compare. My son's HD is setup up 26" front and rear, same tires (on different rims...but close enough...he's got some Havoc's) and a 170 Lyrik coil up front.
    Both bikes measured up at almost exactly 14" bb and basically identical measures from the ground straight up to the back of the fork's crown...that was 32 and 6/16". In the pics, you'll see that geo (by sight) looks darn near identical and his bars sit just about 2/3" higher than mine. we have identical stem / bar combo's and spacers same spacers under the stem...his frame is a large and mine's a medium - the additional head tube length would account for the difference at the bars. (only other difference, though I doubt it matters, is that his is a slightly older 135mm rear-spaced frame...mine's a 142).
    Of course, all of this is subject to massive (statistically speaking) measurement error...


    650b HD / 160mm travel...another way to skin the cat-img_2262.jpg650b HD / 160mm travel...another way to skin the cat-img_2259.jpg650b HD / 160mm travel...another way to skin the cat-img_2260.jpg650b HD / 160mm travel...another way to skin the cat-img_2261.jpg

  12. #12
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    650b HD / 160mm travel...another way to skin the cat

    On a different note, good job, Pops! The family that plays together......

  13. #13
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    Right on dad!!

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by doismellbacon View Post
    On a different note, good job, Pops! The family that plays together......
    roger that...and thanks. My dad (76) still comes to the Sea Otter with us every year to camp...I just de-commissioned his Ripley-blue Ibis Szazbo frame last year in favor of a mojo sl...he doesn't really ride dirt any more but enjoys a cruise on a bike path / mild dirt path. My son (15) eats, sleeps, and drinks bikes. Always has...from 2 years old in a bike trailer we'd be plying the slopes of the santacruz mountains...through trail-a-bikes, tandems...the whole 9 yards. He and his friends are either building (usually jumps and short sections of flow trail) or riding (or working on their bikes in my garage...which I wholeheartedly endorse...if you ride 'em, you've got to be able to build and maintain them, I think). Riding with him at this stage is so rewarding because he's just taught me a whole new angle on my riding...the way he sees the trail and works it...whereas I tend to just ride it. Our summer vacations are now full of bike-ventures...Ashland /Oakridge Mammoth, Bend, Northstar this last summer. And, ya, it's been a real treat having something like this to do together...and something that we can do together - hopefully - for a long time to come.

    Now, on the angle finder app....total blind spot for me...didn't know it existed...now I *have* to have one ;-0

    I will look for one and report back.

  15. #15
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    wow...I'm bike-geeking this morning.
    downloaded an app...by Plaincode...looks like a good app.

    anyway, I set the bikes on a section of pavement in my garage that read as exactly level on the clinometer....then measured angles along both the fork legs and stanchions. The results were curious. I came up with just under 68 degrees for both HD's...like 67.8, and it was identical for two (my 650b pike 150 / 26" rear, and lyrik 170 26 / 26 both with identical tire setups). I measured the ripleys (they're set up the same as well...140 34 fox's and same tire setups) and they both came in at identical 69.8 ish.

    so those number strike me as being a little steeper than I expected based on published numbers. I did expect the ripleys to be approx 2 degrees steeper, so that jives...and they were consistent...and, more to the point, my 650b / 26 hybrid came out exactly the same head angle as the 26/26 with the 170mm lyrik.

    going back to what matters to me - how it feels on the trail - it felt like just the right temperature porridge to me.

  16. #16
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    That looks off by 1.3-1.5 degrees..on both. Should be closer to 66.5 and 68.5 +-

    I ran a lowered fox 36 float to 150mm so 535ac on a 2012 HD 160mm 650B mode and my angles were approx 67.5 and BB of 14.3 with Swhalbe HD 2.35s in. I had to ramp up my bottom out on my X fushion HLR so it really closer to 145ish in rear

    Did not work well for me back tire did not fit and BB was tall and tippy. I think factory150 front and rear in 650B mode would be really nice from IBIS. Keep BB at 13.5
    The 130mm HDR misses the mark a bit for me.

  17. #17
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    Loving your work here.

    On the angles front, did you calibrate the app first? Maybe utilize a level if you've got one. If you can't calibrate it then its going to be hard to get firm figures, though you are seemingly getting consistent differences at least.

    If you know what the Ripley should be with your setup perhaps you can work back from there.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by motoguru2007 View Post
    That looks off by 1.3-1.5 degrees..on both. Should be closer to 66.5 and 68.5 +-
    ...
    Agree, my large HD (142 rear version) in 160mm guise with 170mm Marz 66's has a HA of ~66.5 (running the same tyres F&R).

  19. #19
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    starship - I did do the 'calibration' on the app...but who knows how good it really is. I think that by starting with a measured slope of exactly 90 degrees on the garage floor should provide adequate 'calibration,' by itself, but again...who knows.

    motog - I agree based on what's reported...as I said, I was a little surprised by the numbers as well. I've also found, however, that actual a-to-c measurements have differed across identical forks that I've measured...

    re: the 130 HDR 650b, that's why I've been tinkering with this hybrid setup...a 130ish 650b bike is simply too close in capability to my ripley.

  20. #20
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    You probably already did this, but the other trick is to take an angle reading, rotate the bike around 180 degrees so it's facing the other direction, take another reading, and average the two. That'll eliminate any problems with sloped floor/calibration.
    On heavy rotation: White Lung: Deep Fantasy

  21. #21
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    I've had the same experience with an iPhone app displaying much steeper numbers than published.... didn't really care that much so never bothered to look for a different app that could be calibrated.

  22. #22
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    650b/26" HD 160 Gen-2 or HDR, with offset shock bushings, with a 170mm travel fork, is my set tup for DH park days.

    For XC rides, I like a 650b rear wheel having less rolling resistance, and shock shimmed to 145 to 150mm bottom travel, and shorter travel fork, to make moderately steeper angles and more forward weight balance for my local tight slower trails with much climbing. I have modified my X-Fusion Ve*g*an* HLR fork with a U-turn coil assembly to adjust the fork travel 125mm to 170mm for better optimizing handling for various sections of trail.

    (BTW, I don't have pictures of the fork modification parts. The modification of the fork required trial and error of various hardware store parts to get a correctly threaded stud and bolt and crush washers and water faucet rubber gaskets for adapting the u-turn lower mount to bolt on and not leak, and washers and o-ring for shimming inside the top cap and not leaking air, drilling a hole in the top cap, and a used Lyrik fork to get all the left leg internal parts and external knob. )
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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by derby View Post
    650b/26" HD 160 Gen-2 or HDR, with offset shock bushings, with a 170mm travel fork, is my set tup for DH park days.

    For XC rides, I like a 650b rear wheel having less rolling resistance, and shock shimmed to 145 to 150mm bottom travel, and shorter travel fork, to make moderately steeper angles and more forward weight balance for my local tight slower trails with much climbing. I have modified my X-Fusion Ve*g*an* HLR fork with a U-turn coil assembly to adjust the fork travel 125mm to 170mm for better optimizing handling for various sections of trail.

    (BTW, I don't have pictures of the fork modification parts. The modification of the fork required trial and error of various hardware store parts to get a correctly threaded stud and bolt and crush washers and water faucet rubber gaskets for adapting the u-turn lower mount to bolt on and not leak, and washers and o-ring for shimming inside the top cap and not leaking air, drilling a hole in the top cap, and a used Lyrik fork to get all the left leg internal parts and external knob. )
    There's no substitute for a home brewed build.

  24. #24
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    I was thinking about an HDR but decided to keep my white HD. 650b swingarm on order, Pike on order and TFT tuning my shock

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by derby View Post
    650b/26" HD 160 Gen-2 or HDR, with offset shock bushings, with a 170mm travel fork, is my set tup for DH park days.

    For XC rides, I like a 650b rear wheel having less rolling resistance, and shock shimmed to 145 to 150mm bottom travel, and shorter travel fork, to make moderately steeper angles and more forward weight balance for my local tight slower trails with much climbing. I have modified my X-Fusion Ve*g*an* HLR fork with a U-turn coil assembly to adjust the fork travel 125mm to 170mm for better optimizing handling for various sections of trail.

    (BTW, I don't have pictures of the fork modification parts. The modification of the fork required trial and error of various hardware store parts to get a correctly threaded stud and bolt and crush washers and water faucet rubber gaskets for adapting the u-turn lower mount to bolt on and not leak, and washers and o-ring for shimming inside the top cap and not leaking air, drilling a hole in the top cap, and a used Lyrik fork to get all the left leg internal parts and external knob. )
    Wow sounds like an awesome experiment. Any reason not to just buy a DLA assembly?

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