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  1. #1
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    2015 Shimano XTR Di2 & 1x11 preview

    Shimano XTR 2015 latest news MTB-CHECK Mountainbike, VTT, all mountain, enduro, downhill, bikecheck

    Maybe I've been asleep, but just seeing this for the first time.

  2. #2
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    Not a huge surprise they're finally going to launch XTR Di2. It'll be extortionate, though.

  3. #3
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    Yeah, no doubt. Although maybe in a 1x configuration it won't be terrible.... If the road side is any indication 2016 XT Di2 will be the ticket. I'm more pleased to see a wide range 11sp cassette, honestly.

  4. #4
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    I doesn't look like wide narrow chainring

  5. #5
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    The cassette is only 11-40t. You are better off getting a 42t adapter and saving $. Or go with XX1 obviously.

  6. #6
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    Yawn...Shimano still hasn't caught up to Sram. Why 11-40 cassette? That is stupid. Sram has you covered high and low with the 10-42. I won't be changing any time soon.

  7. #7
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    This is not Enduro enough

    With you wasfast, also looks a bit roadie, now if they could do what they do with theyre brakes and cranks to they're transmissions, stop trying to please everyone maybe theyd come up with a winner, trying to please too many areas XC to DH, def not Enduro worthy

  8. #8
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    Come on shimano, you can do better!
    If I want a 40T, I would go for General Lee!

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cable0guy View Post
    The cassette is only 11-40t. You are better off getting a 42t adapter and saving $. Or go with XX1 obviously.
    People seem to be obsessed 40 vs 42 or 10 vs 11 when the real news is Di2 that is the glimpse to the future. Those cassette numbers actually do not make up for a big difference: compare the following gear ratios:

    1140 x 30 => 2.73 to .75 (XTR 2015?)
    1142 x 30 => 2.73 to .71 (aftermarket)
    1042 x 28 => 2.80 to .67 (SRAM)

    With a 1140 you loose at most three quarters of gear in respect to 1042, 1142 is indistinguishable (and both alternatives make SRAM 1042 actually look like a very silly idea, after a year on the market ...). If you want an overdrive in respect to a cassette with 11 minimum cog you are forced to go 9 (not 10), like the upcoming Leonardi 942 Leonardi Racing 9x42 Cassette 10 speed

    942 x 30 => 3.3 to .71 (Single Leonardi)

    But if you use a dual 1140 the range is huge, you will not have 9 or 10 tooth cogs on the cassette to contend with, and Di2 will make the use of the front chain rings completely transparent

    1140 x 26 + 40 => 3.63 to 0.65 (Dual Shimano 2015)

    only problem will be the premium price , for now, but if people are ready to spend $1000-1500 to get a stupid 10 cog, they should be joyous to get a state of the art dual that has way larger range.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davide View Post
    People seem to be obsessed 40 vs 42 or 10 vs 11 ....
    I disagree with your analysis with respect to XX1. Have you played around with XX1 in real life situation and not just on paper?

    42t makes a noticeable difference when climbing steep loose hills. Very few people use 28t front ring (more like 30t or 32t). And 10t helps a lot when pedaling on flat fireroads (even 10t is not enough).

    Yes, you can get by with 40t/11t, but if you are going to spend that kind of $ on XTR, why settle for compromises when you can get XX1? Or spend a fraction of it with a 42t adapter?

    Very few will opt to go with dual (that's why XX1 was invented and is popular in the 1st place). I don't see many opting to use Di2 either for a number of obvious reasons.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cable0guy View Post
    42t makes a noticeable difference when climbing steep loose hills. Very few people use 28t front ring (more like 30t or 32t). And 10t helps a lot when pedaling on flat fireroads (even 10t is not enough).
    I disagree, there is no practical difference between a 40 or 42, no matter how you cut it. Numbers do tell the whole story, with larger chain rings:

    1140 x 32 => 2.91 to .80 (XTR 2015?)
    1140 x 30 => 2.72 to .75 (XTR 2015?)
    1142 x 32 => 2.91 to .76 (aftermarket)
    1042 x 30 => 3.00 to .72 (SRAM)

    Compare with the gap 13 to 11 cog, that is 2.3 to 2.7 with a 30 ring, and you see that with 1140 x 30 you loose about 3/4 of a gear in respect to a 10 cog, and loose nothing in the low gear.

    I agree that 10 is not enough to give you a real overdrive. That's why SRAM 1042 is, now that 1140 ad 1142 are on the market, becoming a stupidly expensive idea. 942 is better (if as expensive) but you have a 9 cog, , and dual is probably here to stay as the best system by a long shot range-wise.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davide View Post
    I disagree, there is no practical difference between a 40 or 42, no matter how you cut it.
    While you think the difference is not much on paper, in real life it is. Just talk to someone who rides XX1 or go try it out yourself. That little bit in 42t vs. 40t or 5% power could mean the difference in using 30t or 32t vs. 28t in the front ring (most bikes are optimized for 32t). And using 11t vs. 10t could mean the difference in having the power to stay with someone using 2 front rings. Not to mention that XX1 interface is much superior to the standard Shimano Capreo interface.

    You also missed the big point about 40t vs. 42t. It's not that the difference is small, but that Shimano chose to come out with their flagship product that is inferior to SRAM and not much better than aftermarket kits (and will be very expensive). That is the biggest criticism IMO.

    I totally disagree about the dual ring being the best system. Once you go to 1-ring, most people don't go back, despite the cost. And those who can't afford XX1, they use the 42t aftermarket kits. It is noteworthy that Oneup, Wolf Tooth and other 42t rings are sold out for the foreseeable future.

    Again, these setups for riders who hate front derailleurs. If you are happy with it, by all means use it. Nobody is telling you not to use it. But for those who prefer 1-ring setups, XX1 and 42t aftermarket kits give them options, which at present are much better than '15 XTR IMO.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cable0guy View Post
    While you think the difference is not much on paper, in real life it is. Just talk to someone who rides XX1 or go try it out yourself.
    Not to keep going, but really 40 vs 42 is irrelevant. You need a difference of 4-8 teeth once you pass 32 to feel a difference.

    Don't get me wrong, Shimano could have easily gone 1142 (it might still go there, we don't know), but I can see their logic: the future, say 5 years from now, is electronic shifting and a pseudo-race to the largest rear cog would look dubious: 42, 43, 44 ... 46 who offers more? ... bizarre, and performance wise (total weight, weight distribution, gear shift, range and range access at fingertip) Dual will be better

  14. #14
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    Sorry but 5% is still 5%. Whether you are a racer or weekend warrior, you would feel the difference and would want that given the choice.

    I think you are still missing the point about the 1-ring setup. It's the fact that you don't need to mess around with your left hand when needing to shift quickly going into a techy climb or descent or whatever the case. Whether it is regular of electronic, it won't make a difference. 1-ring will be better for a lot of people.

    Now if Shimano or someone comes out with some kind of internal gearing system that is superior to XX1, that would be different story.

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    Going to weigh in here:

    The new XTR Groupset is designed to work as 1X11 or 2X11. This may be the reason for not offering the 42. I trust Shimano did a boat load of testing and studied SRAM as well. Generally the XTR customer is a weight weenie XC rider.

    Interesting to see if they offer the a 42 cassette with narrow wide chainring on the XT and SLX where you typically get more of an AM crowd?

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  17. #17
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    No thin/thick teeth alternating front ring either

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cable0guy View Post
    No thin/thick teeth alternating front ring either
    SRAM's recent "patent" on the technology (old tech specifically for cycling) may be enough to scare Shimano from using narrow/wide. I'm no patent lawyer though, so I could be wrong...

  19. #19
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    11-36 cassette gives a range of 1:3.27, Shimanos new 11-40 cassette gives a range of 1:3.63. The 10-42 XX1 cassette has a range of 1:4.2, Shimanos new cassette only comes 1/3 of the way to close the gap between 10-speed and XX1.

    As far as electric gears goes, I would sooner pay to not have them. I've tried it on a road bike and I truly can't think of a single reason why I would want that, especially on a MTB?

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eld View Post
    As far as electric gears goes, I would sooner pay to not have them. I've tried it on a road bike and I truly can't think of a single reason why I would want that, especially on a MTB?
    In an IDEAL WORLD where it works great, I can think of some advantages. Of course there are many disadvantages too!

    Advantages on MTB:
    1) Never have to deal with gunked-up high-friction derailleur cables.
    2) Control wire can be routed anywhere on frame, is impervious to sharp bends in routing, and will be much less stiff than deraileur cable so would presumably play better with mobile rear ends on FS bikes.
    3) Shifting systems are smart enough to time shifts to chainring ramps and pedal strokes, to prevent dropped chains when shifting under load.

    Disadvantages:
    1) Battery life? Potential for more shifts and larger jumps between gears than road bikes, which would drain battery.
    2) Can it handle mud and frequent pressure washes?
    3) Crashing and breaking your deraileur gets mega-$$
    4) Harder to repair trail-side, or fudge sufficiently to limp home; I'd be cautious about doing long backcountry rides!

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by canuck_tacoma View Post
    Going to weigh in here:

    The new XTR Groupset is designed to work as 1X11 or 2X11. This may be the reason for not offering the 42. I trust Shimano did a boat load of testing and studied SRAM as well. Generally the XTR customer is a weight weenie XC rider.

    Interesting to see if they offer the a 42 cassette with narrow wide chainring on the XT and SLX where you typically get more of an AM crowd?
    I'll be interested to see if the 11-speed has the same cable pull ratios and free hub compatibility as the current 10. It'd be great to be able to just change cassette, chain and rear shifter to get 11-40.

  22. #22
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    They probably didn't do 42T from a longetivty and efficiency standpoint. That big ass gear creates nasty chainline and too much B tension. Shimano is all about super fine engineering. The bigger you get on the rear cog the more hacked it makes the drivetrain. While XX1 works good, I've talked with way above average riders and mechanics who have commented how the XX1 stuff is still a compromise. Shimano isn't going to come out with anything that doesn't work flawlessly.
    friends don't let friends Fred

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    Shimano is about fine engeneering and about making money. Means: analyze the market and produce the product that sells best. And that's XC stuff.
    I don't think they have a pumptrack in their backjard in Japan as Sram has in their design headquarters in Germany, or?

  24. #24
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    A lot of interesting perspectives...

    I agree that the 10/42 cassette gives it an advantage in running a single ring drivetrain and having adequate range for a strong rider who's selected the right chain ring size.

    I've been a Shimano man my whole mountain biking life, so with a garage full of bikes on a non-stop-merry-go-round of parts swapping, I wasn't ready to take the ($$$) XX1 plunge. After ditching my granny/bash/FD/F-shifter (WOOOOHOOOO! Keeping it simple!) I've been pretty stoked on 1x for all the obvious reasons. The narrower range did force me to man up and turn a bigger gear uphill which actually improved my success rate on some of the tougher uphill tech sections (Good!), but it wasn't low enough to save my 40+ yr old knees from impending doom without walking stuff that I wasn't ready to throw in the towel on, or going to a 30t ring (on 650b) which left me wanting on the top end. I've mounted one of the Wolf Tooth 42t cogs which is good, but not perfect, and is clearly a stop-gap measure compared to a fully engineered system. It's finicky to setup (and I'm very finicky about my setup, and very experienced also) but I've got it working as well as it's going to now, I believe. Shifting onto & off of the 42 can be perfect if you dial in enough b-tension...truly as good as Shimano shifting, but then the shifting across the rest of the cassette suffers....no way around it due to the wayout b-tension setting... and the 15-19 shift is clunky & somewhat unreliable....not a deal killer, but hardly ideal. If I were racing still, I'd be inclined to run the stock 11-36 to avoid any ill-timed mis-shifts, and pick my ring size carefully for the course.

    It may not look like it on MTBR, with all of us bike-obsessed bleeding edge-r's, but a lot of the public still demands wider gearing than even XX1 can provide....that's one spot where Shimano will have an advantage.

    Also, a well-adjusted 2x offers an advantage in demanding terrain that no 1x can match....namely, the ability to drop instantly to a lower gear when you're charging at a steep uphill tech section or ledgy climb. That was the biggest adjustment for me when I went from 2x to 1x.... no longer being able to charge a ledge in the big ring, and drop from my 36 to 26 and have the chain INSTANTLY engaged in less than 1/4 of a pedal revolution, in EXACTLY the right gear.....vs the 1x setup where, to achieve the same change in gear ratio you have to downshift 2 (or 3 depending on ring size) cogs and wait for the chain to make it's slow ascent up onto those bigger cogs.... how many times have we all not anticipated a downshift adequately on a fast approach to a gnarly uphill section, and stalled out trying to turn over a too-big gear, only to look down at the cassette and see that the chain's only made it half way there. I've adjusted to the change, and I prefer to take that compromise and enjoy all the other 1x benefits, but it's a downgrade in that particular situation vs a dialed 2x.

    AND THAT'S what's interesting to me about Shimano's strategy....notice that their doubles and triples now have a 10t difference between rings... this improves front shifting SOOO much (even on an "old fashion" mechanical drivetrain) and gives that equivalent 2 cog downshift that is MONEY in technical terrain with lots of abrupt up/down. That combined with Di2, which is widely regarded as being a game changer for front shifting, may be enough to keep the multi ring drivetrain thriving into the future. Granted, there's a lot of momentum the other direction, but only a fool counts out Shimano. The 11-40 cassette allows them to do this and offer the widest range on the market for multi-ring setups, along with 1x range that's probably wide enough for at least the XTR 1x target market....weight weenie racer boys.

    Other points: Weight? It looks like XTR may have a tough time competing with XX1 for the racer set.... we'll see.
    Modular, interchangeable.... Looks like a XTR 11sp group will adapt easily to 1x, 2x, 3x...and it looks like no new freehub is required.

    So, my question is.... Is Shimano's XTR team wagging their finger at SRAM and all the 1x11 adopters and saying "Not so fast....multi-rings still have legs and here's why." Or is 1x focused XT/SLX with even wider range cassette coming? Or is Shimano just missing the mark entirely? I'm not going to be nearly as quick as some to just assume the latter....I've turned my nose up at some of their innovations over the years, only to eat my words. As Yody pointed out, nobody touches Shimano when it comes to engineering excellence and refinement.

  25. #25
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    It is a no go for me without the 10T cog. The 40 vs 42 not a huge deal, but the 10T makes a big difference on races with any fire road involved.

    As for running 2x, FD's are dead for anyone that has run XX1. I will never, ever run an FD again. Shimano is an engineering focused organization, but in my view after being a Shimano/XTR guy for 25 years they missed the mark by not using the SRAM XD driver as the basis for their new setup. It's not like SRAM didn't use the Shimano standard for 20 years. I understand they will probably argue that they want to support the standard freehub already out there, but they changed that standard for Dura Ace recently so it rings somewhat hollow for me.

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