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  1. #1
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    2015 Shimano XTR Di2 & 1x11 preview


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    Not a huge surprise they're finally going to launch XTR Di2. It'll be extortionate, though.

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    Yeah, no doubt. Although maybe in a 1x configuration it won't be terrible.... If the road side is any indication 2016 XT Di2 will be the ticket. I'm more pleased to see a wide range 11sp cassette, honestly.

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    I doesn't look like wide narrow chainring

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    The cassette is only 11-40t. You are better off getting a 42t adapter and saving $. Or go with XX1 obviously.

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    Yawn...Shimano still hasn't caught up to Sram. Why 11-40 cassette? That is stupid. Sram has you covered high and low with the 10-42. I won't be changing any time soon.

  7. #7
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    This is not Enduro enough

    With you wasfast, also looks a bit roadie, now if they could do what they do with theyre brakes and cranks to they're transmissions, stop trying to please everyone maybe theyd come up with a winner, trying to please too many areas XC to DH, def not Enduro worthy

  8. #8
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    Come on shimano, you can do better!
    If I want a 40T, I would go for General Lee!

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cable0guy View Post
    The cassette is only 11-40t. You are better off getting a 42t adapter and saving $. Or go with XX1 obviously.
    People seem to be obsessed 40 vs 42 or 10 vs 11 when the real news is Di2 that is the glimpse to the future. Those cassette numbers actually do not make up for a big difference: compare the following gear ratios:

    1140 x 30 => 2.73 to .75 (XTR 2015?)
    1142 x 30 => 2.73 to .71 (aftermarket)
    1042 x 28 => 2.80 to .67 (SRAM)

    With a 1140 you loose at most three quarters of gear in respect to 1042, 1142 is indistinguishable (and both alternatives make SRAM 1042 actually look like a very silly idea, after a year on the market ...). If you want an overdrive in respect to a cassette with 11 minimum cog you are forced to go 9 (not 10), like the upcoming Leonardi 942 Leonardi Racing 9x42 Cassette 10 speed

    942 x 30 => 3.3 to .71 (Single Leonardi)

    But if you use a dual 1140 the range is huge, you will not have 9 or 10 tooth cogs on the cassette to contend with, and Di2 will make the use of the front chain rings completely transparent

    1140 x 26 + 40 => 3.63 to 0.65 (Dual Shimano 2015)

    only problem will be the premium price , for now, but if people are ready to spend $1000-1500 to get a stupid 10 cog, they should be joyous to get a state of the art dual that has way larger range.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davide View Post
    People seem to be obsessed 40 vs 42 or 10 vs 11 ....
    I disagree with your analysis with respect to XX1. Have you played around with XX1 in real life situation and not just on paper?

    42t makes a noticeable difference when climbing steep loose hills. Very few people use 28t front ring (more like 30t or 32t). And 10t helps a lot when pedaling on flat fireroads (even 10t is not enough).

    Yes, you can get by with 40t/11t, but if you are going to spend that kind of $ on XTR, why settle for compromises when you can get XX1? Or spend a fraction of it with a 42t adapter?

    Very few will opt to go with dual (that's why XX1 was invented and is popular in the 1st place). I don't see many opting to use Di2 either for a number of obvious reasons.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cable0guy View Post
    42t makes a noticeable difference when climbing steep loose hills. Very few people use 28t front ring (more like 30t or 32t). And 10t helps a lot when pedaling on flat fireroads (even 10t is not enough).
    I disagree, there is no practical difference between a 40 or 42, no matter how you cut it. Numbers do tell the whole story, with larger chain rings:

    1140 x 32 => 2.91 to .80 (XTR 2015?)
    1140 x 30 => 2.72 to .75 (XTR 2015?)
    1142 x 32 => 2.91 to .76 (aftermarket)
    1042 x 30 => 3.00 to .72 (SRAM)

    Compare with the gap 13 to 11 cog, that is 2.3 to 2.7 with a 30 ring, and you see that with 1140 x 30 you loose about 3/4 of a gear in respect to a 10 cog, and loose nothing in the low gear.

    I agree that 10 is not enough to give you a real overdrive. That's why SRAM 1042 is, now that 1140 ad 1142 are on the market, becoming a stupidly expensive idea. 942 is better (if as expensive) but you have a 9 cog, , and dual is probably here to stay as the best system by a long shot range-wise.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davide View Post
    I disagree, there is no practical difference between a 40 or 42, no matter how you cut it.
    While you think the difference is not much on paper, in real life it is. Just talk to someone who rides XX1 or go try it out yourself. That little bit in 42t vs. 40t or 5% power could mean the difference in using 30t or 32t vs. 28t in the front ring (most bikes are optimized for 32t). And using 11t vs. 10t could mean the difference in having the power to stay with someone using 2 front rings. Not to mention that XX1 interface is much superior to the standard Shimano Capreo interface.

    You also missed the big point about 40t vs. 42t. It's not that the difference is small, but that Shimano chose to come out with their flagship product that is inferior to SRAM and not much better than aftermarket kits (and will be very expensive). That is the biggest criticism IMO.

    I totally disagree about the dual ring being the best system. Once you go to 1-ring, most people don't go back, despite the cost. And those who can't afford XX1, they use the 42t aftermarket kits. It is noteworthy that Oneup, Wolf Tooth and other 42t rings are sold out for the foreseeable future.

    Again, these setups for riders who hate front derailleurs. If you are happy with it, by all means use it. Nobody is telling you not to use it. But for those who prefer 1-ring setups, XX1 and 42t aftermarket kits give them options, which at present are much better than '15 XTR IMO.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cable0guy View Post
    While you think the difference is not much on paper, in real life it is. Just talk to someone who rides XX1 or go try it out yourself.
    Not to keep going, but really 40 vs 42 is irrelevant. You need a difference of 4-8 teeth once you pass 32 to feel a difference.

    Don't get me wrong, Shimano could have easily gone 1142 (it might still go there, we don't know), but I can see their logic: the future, say 5 years from now, is electronic shifting and a pseudo-race to the largest rear cog would look dubious: 42, 43, 44 ... 46 who offers more? ... bizarre, and performance wise (total weight, weight distribution, gear shift, range and range access at fingertip) Dual will be better

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    Sorry but 5% is still 5%. Whether you are a racer or weekend warrior, you would feel the difference and would want that given the choice.

    I think you are still missing the point about the 1-ring setup. It's the fact that you don't need to mess around with your left hand when needing to shift quickly going into a techy climb or descent or whatever the case. Whether it is regular of electronic, it won't make a difference. 1-ring will be better for a lot of people.

    Now if Shimano or someone comes out with some kind of internal gearing system that is superior to XX1, that would be different story.

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    Going to weigh in here:

    The new XTR Groupset is designed to work as 1X11 or 2X11. This may be the reason for not offering the 42. I trust Shimano did a boat load of testing and studied SRAM as well. Generally the XTR customer is a weight weenie XC rider.

    Interesting to see if they offer the a 42 cassette with narrow wide chainring on the XT and SLX where you typically get more of an AM crowd?

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  17. #17
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    No thin/thick teeth alternating front ring either

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cable0guy View Post
    No thin/thick teeth alternating front ring either
    SRAM's recent "patent" on the technology (old tech specifically for cycling) may be enough to scare Shimano from using narrow/wide. I'm no patent lawyer though, so I could be wrong...

  19. #19
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    11-36 cassette gives a range of 1:3.27, Shimanos new 11-40 cassette gives a range of 1:3.63. The 10-42 XX1 cassette has a range of 1:4.2, Shimanos new cassette only comes 1/3 of the way to close the gap between 10-speed and XX1.

    As far as electric gears goes, I would sooner pay to not have them. I've tried it on a road bike and I truly can't think of a single reason why I would want that, especially on a MTB?

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eld View Post
    As far as electric gears goes, I would sooner pay to not have them. I've tried it on a road bike and I truly can't think of a single reason why I would want that, especially on a MTB?
    In an IDEAL WORLD where it works great, I can think of some advantages. Of course there are many disadvantages too!

    Advantages on MTB:
    1) Never have to deal with gunked-up high-friction derailleur cables.
    2) Control wire can be routed anywhere on frame, is impervious to sharp bends in routing, and will be much less stiff than deraileur cable so would presumably play better with mobile rear ends on FS bikes.
    3) Shifting systems are smart enough to time shifts to chainring ramps and pedal strokes, to prevent dropped chains when shifting under load.

    Disadvantages:
    1) Battery life? Potential for more shifts and larger jumps between gears than road bikes, which would drain battery.
    2) Can it handle mud and frequent pressure washes?
    3) Crashing and breaking your deraileur gets mega-$$
    4) Harder to repair trail-side, or fudge sufficiently to limp home; I'd be cautious about doing long backcountry rides!

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by canuck_tacoma View Post
    Going to weigh in here:

    The new XTR Groupset is designed to work as 1X11 or 2X11. This may be the reason for not offering the 42. I trust Shimano did a boat load of testing and studied SRAM as well. Generally the XTR customer is a weight weenie XC rider.

    Interesting to see if they offer the a 42 cassette with narrow wide chainring on the XT and SLX where you typically get more of an AM crowd?
    I'll be interested to see if the 11-speed has the same cable pull ratios and free hub compatibility as the current 10. It'd be great to be able to just change cassette, chain and rear shifter to get 11-40.

  22. #22
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    They probably didn't do 42T from a longetivty and efficiency standpoint. That big ass gear creates nasty chainline and too much B tension. Shimano is all about super fine engineering. The bigger you get on the rear cog the more hacked it makes the drivetrain. While XX1 works good, I've talked with way above average riders and mechanics who have commented how the XX1 stuff is still a compromise. Shimano isn't going to come out with anything that doesn't work flawlessly.
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    Shimano is about fine engeneering and about making money. Means: analyze the market and produce the product that sells best. And that's XC stuff.
    I don't think they have a pumptrack in their backjard in Japan as Sram has in their design headquarters in Germany, or?

  24. #24
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    A lot of interesting perspectives...

    I agree that the 10/42 cassette gives it an advantage in running a single ring drivetrain and having adequate range for a strong rider who's selected the right chain ring size.

    I've been a Shimano man my whole mountain biking life, so with a garage full of bikes on a non-stop-merry-go-round of parts swapping, I wasn't ready to take the ($$$) XX1 plunge. After ditching my granny/bash/FD/F-shifter (WOOOOHOOOO! Keeping it simple!) I've been pretty stoked on 1x for all the obvious reasons. The narrower range did force me to man up and turn a bigger gear uphill which actually improved my success rate on some of the tougher uphill tech sections (Good!), but it wasn't low enough to save my 40+ yr old knees from impending doom without walking stuff that I wasn't ready to throw in the towel on, or going to a 30t ring (on 650b) which left me wanting on the top end. I've mounted one of the Wolf Tooth 42t cogs which is good, but not perfect, and is clearly a stop-gap measure compared to a fully engineered system. It's finicky to setup (and I'm very finicky about my setup, and very experienced also) but I've got it working as well as it's going to now, I believe. Shifting onto & off of the 42 can be perfect if you dial in enough b-tension...truly as good as Shimano shifting, but then the shifting across the rest of the cassette suffers....no way around it due to the wayout b-tension setting... and the 15-19 shift is clunky & somewhat unreliable....not a deal killer, but hardly ideal. If I were racing still, I'd be inclined to run the stock 11-36 to avoid any ill-timed mis-shifts, and pick my ring size carefully for the course.

    It may not look like it on MTBR, with all of us bike-obsessed bleeding edge-r's, but a lot of the public still demands wider gearing than even XX1 can provide....that's one spot where Shimano will have an advantage.

    Also, a well-adjusted 2x offers an advantage in demanding terrain that no 1x can match....namely, the ability to drop instantly to a lower gear when you're charging at a steep uphill tech section or ledgy climb. That was the biggest adjustment for me when I went from 2x to 1x.... no longer being able to charge a ledge in the big ring, and drop from my 36 to 26 and have the chain INSTANTLY engaged in less than 1/4 of a pedal revolution, in EXACTLY the right gear.....vs the 1x setup where, to achieve the same change in gear ratio you have to downshift 2 (or 3 depending on ring size) cogs and wait for the chain to make it's slow ascent up onto those bigger cogs.... how many times have we all not anticipated a downshift adequately on a fast approach to a gnarly uphill section, and stalled out trying to turn over a too-big gear, only to look down at the cassette and see that the chain's only made it half way there. I've adjusted to the change, and I prefer to take that compromise and enjoy all the other 1x benefits, but it's a downgrade in that particular situation vs a dialed 2x.

    AND THAT'S what's interesting to me about Shimano's strategy....notice that their doubles and triples now have a 10t difference between rings... this improves front shifting SOOO much (even on an "old fashion" mechanical drivetrain) and gives that equivalent 2 cog downshift that is MONEY in technical terrain with lots of abrupt up/down. That combined with Di2, which is widely regarded as being a game changer for front shifting, may be enough to keep the multi ring drivetrain thriving into the future. Granted, there's a lot of momentum the other direction, but only a fool counts out Shimano. The 11-40 cassette allows them to do this and offer the widest range on the market for multi-ring setups, along with 1x range that's probably wide enough for at least the XTR 1x target market....weight weenie racer boys.

    Other points: Weight? It looks like XTR may have a tough time competing with XX1 for the racer set.... we'll see.
    Modular, interchangeable.... Looks like a XTR 11sp group will adapt easily to 1x, 2x, 3x...and it looks like no new freehub is required.

    So, my question is.... Is Shimano's XTR team wagging their finger at SRAM and all the 1x11 adopters and saying "Not so fast....multi-rings still have legs and here's why." Or is 1x focused XT/SLX with even wider range cassette coming? Or is Shimano just missing the mark entirely? I'm not going to be nearly as quick as some to just assume the latter....I've turned my nose up at some of their innovations over the years, only to eat my words. As Yody pointed out, nobody touches Shimano when it comes to engineering excellence and refinement.

  25. #25
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    It is a no go for me without the 10T cog. The 40 vs 42 not a huge deal, but the 10T makes a big difference on races with any fire road involved.

    As for running 2x, FD's are dead for anyone that has run XX1. I will never, ever run an FD again. Shimano is an engineering focused organization, but in my view after being a Shimano/XTR guy for 25 years they missed the mark by not using the SRAM XD driver as the basis for their new setup. It's not like SRAM didn't use the Shimano standard for 20 years. I understand they will probably argue that they want to support the standard freehub already out there, but they changed that standard for Dura Ace recently so it rings somewhat hollow for me.

  26. #26
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    There was a reason why SRAM picked 42t (and not 40 or 38 for better shifting). It allows you you to essentially replicate 11/34 (or 11/36) cassette and 22t front granny ring setup using 28t or 30t front ring. That is a big selling point. And that is why others like Oneup, General Lee and Wolf Tooth are copying the 42t too.

    I think most of us are mainly expressing disappointment at Shimano for not innovating and making a half-@ss attempt at trying to do a single ring setup. I like XX1, but would have liked to see Shimano come up with something as good if not better.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by doismellbacon View Post
    A lot of interesting perspectives...

    I agree that the 10/42 cassette gives it an advantage in running a single ring drivetrain and having adequate range for a strong rider who's selected the right chain ring size.

    I've been a Shimano man my whole mountain biking life, so with a garage full of bikes on a non-stop-merry-go-round of parts swapping, I wasn't ready to take the ($$$) XX1 plunge. After ditching my granny/bash/FD/F-shifter (WOOOOHOOOO! Keeping it simple!) I've been pretty stoked on 1x for all the obvious reasons. The narrower range did force me to man up and turn a bigger gear uphill which actually improved my success rate on some of the tougher uphill tech sections (Good!), but it wasn't low enough to save my 40+ yr old knees from impending doom without walking stuff that I wasn't ready to throw in the towel on, or going to a 30t ring (on 650b) which left me wanting on the top end. I've mounted one of the Wolf Tooth 42t cogs which is good, but not perfect, and is clearly a stop-gap measure compared to a fully engineered system. It's finicky to setup (and I'm very finicky about my setup, and very experienced also) but I've got it working as well as it's going to now, I believe. Shifting onto & off of the 42 can be perfect if you dial in enough b-tension...truly as good as Shimano shifting, but then the shifting across the rest of the cassette suffers....no way around it due to the wayout b-tension setting... and the 15-19 shift is clunky & somewhat unreliable....not a deal killer, but hardly ideal. If I were racing still, I'd be inclined to run the stock 11-36 to avoid any ill-timed mis-shifts, and pick my ring size carefully for the course.

    It may not look like it on MTBR, with all of us bike-obsessed bleeding edge-r's, but a lot of the public still demands wider gearing than even XX1 can provide....that's one spot where Shimano will have an advantage.

    Also, a well-adjusted 2x offers an advantage in demanding terrain that no 1x can match....namely, the ability to drop instantly to a lower gear when you're charging at a steep uphill tech section or ledgy climb. That was the biggest adjustment for me when I went from 2x to 1x.... no longer being able to charge a ledge in the big ring, and drop from my 36 to 26 and have the chain INSTANTLY engaged in less than 1/4 of a pedal revolution, in EXACTLY the right gear.....vs the 1x setup where, to achieve the same change in gear ratio you have to downshift 2 (or 3 depending on ring size) cogs and wait for the chain to make it's slow ascent up onto those bigger cogs.... how many times have we all not anticipated a downshift adequately on a fast approach to a gnarly uphill section, and stalled out trying to turn over a too-big gear, only to look down at the cassette and see that the chain's only made it half way there. I've adjusted to the change, and I prefer to take that compromise and enjoy all the other 1x benefits, but it's a downgrade in that particular situation vs a dialed 2x.

    AND THAT'S what's interesting to me about Shimano's strategy....notice that their doubles and triples now have a 10t difference between rings... this improves front shifting SOOO much (even on an "old fashion" mechanical drivetrain) and gives that equivalent 2 cog downshift that is MONEY in technical terrain with lots of abrupt up/down. That combined with Di2, which is widely regarded as being a game changer for front shifting, may be enough to keep the multi ring drivetrain thriving into the future. Granted, there's a lot of momentum the other direction, but only a fool counts out Shimano. The 11-40 cassette allows them to do this and offer the widest range on the market for multi-ring setups, along with 1x range that's probably wide enough for at least the XTR 1x target market....weight weenie racer boys.

    Other points: Weight? It looks like XTR may have a tough time competing with XX1 for the racer set.... we'll see.
    Modular, interchangeable.... Looks like a XTR 11sp group will adapt easily to 1x, 2x, 3x...and it looks like no new freehub is required.

    So, my question is.... Is Shimano's XTR team wagging their finger at SRAM and all the 1x11 adopters and saying "Not so fast....multi-rings still have legs and here's why." Or is 1x focused XT/SLX with even wider range cassette coming? Or is Shimano just missing the mark entirely? I'm not going to be nearly as quick as some to just assume the latter....I've turned my nose up at some of their innovations over the years, only to eat my words. As Yody pointed out, nobody touches Shimano when it comes to engineering excellence and refinement.
    System won't let me spread rep again to you.

    Jeesuz that was the most spot on post I have seen on mtbr in a long time. Totally agree with every single point made.
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  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salespunk View Post
    It is a no go for me without the 10T cog. The 40 vs 42 not a huge deal, but the 10T makes a big difference on races with any fire road involved.

    As for running 2x, FD's are dead for anyone that has run XX1. I will never, ever run an FD again. Shimano is an engineering focused organization, but in my view after being a Shimano/XTR guy for 25 years they missed the mark by not using the SRAM XD driver as the basis for their new setup. It's not like SRAM didn't use the Shimano standard for 20 years. I understand they will probably argue that they want to support the standard freehub already out there, but they changed that standard for Dura Ace recently so it rings somewhat hollow for me.
    How long have you been running a single ring? I've been running one for over 3 years I believe or something like that and I don't want a FD on my All Mountain bike but I'd totally rock one on a XC/trail bike. Theres no replacement for a 2x10 or even a 3x9 if you're doing longer rides. I can bust out 25 milers (with difficult terrain) but I'm pretty much hammered by the end of that ride. With a 2x10 you have such a good spread you can go longer, harder, and faster both up, flat, and down.

    If you would of asked me a year after I went single I would of cursed a front derailleur too, but at this point I understand why sometimes you still need them. They're not really that bad. Especially with this new Di2 and clutch derailleurs.
    friends don't let friends Fred

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salespunk View Post
    It is a no go for me without the 10T cog. The 40 vs 42 not a huge deal, but the 10T makes a big difference on races with any fire road involved

    Quote Originally Posted by Yody View Post
    Theres no replacement for a 2x10 or even a 3x9 if you're doing longer rides. I can bust out 25 milers (with difficult terrain) but I'm pretty much hammered by the end of that ride. With a 2x10 you have such a good spread you can go longer, harder, and faster both up, flat, and down.
    Exactly, not to mention if you are actually using your mountain bike as a "mountain bike".

    Not sure where you guys ride but in some parts of Cali or CO. You're going to need that gear spread. Not just to ride up, but to ride down, as salespunk mentioned. The hamster spin just isn't efficient on those 50 milers. Don't know about you guys, but I just like to ride, so that means long days in the saddle. Mostly with lots of variation in terrain. Not necessarily what one would consider XC but not pump track either.

    Back in the old days we used to call it a "mountain bike ride". Made it easier that way : )


    Reading MTBR has a funny way of twisting one's sense of reality as everyone uses their bikes differently : )
    I kind of laugh when I read people blindly giving advice not realizing their terrain and usage will be much different than someone else's needs.

    FOR MANY, Unless you're looking for a "single purpose" bike. There's still no replacement for a good gear spread. no matter how you reach it.

    1 x 11, 2 x 10, 3 x 10 or 3 x 9 (which as far as I see it, still the widest spread)
    Last edited by crconsulting; 02-17-2014 at 08:45 PM.

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    I've ridden an XX1 for an afternoon and thought was great, but nothing to get too excited about. Though I do like how light it is.

    Personally, I would get the 2X11. I like big rides with road commutes and long climbs; currently I have a 3X10 and love the gears.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by canuck_tacoma View Post
    I've ridden an XX1 for an afternoon and thought was great, but nothing to get too excited about. Though I do like how light it is.

    Personally, I would get the 2X11. I like big rides with road commutes and long climbs; currently I have a 3X10 and love the gears.
    Yup, I'm with you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by doismellbacon View Post
    … a well-adjusted 2x offers an advantage in demanding terrain that no 1x can match....namely, the ability to drop instantly to a lower gear when you're charging at a steep uphill tech section or ledgy climb. That was the biggest adjustment for me when I went from 2x to 1x.... no longer being able to charge a ledge in the big ring, and drop from my 36 to 26 and have the chain INSTANTLY engaged in less than 1/4 of a pedal revolution, in EXACTLY the right gear.....vs the 1x setup where, to achieve the same change in gear ratio you have to downshift 2 (or 3 depending on ring size) cogs and wait for the chain to make it's slow ascent up onto those bigger cogs.... how many times have we all not anticipated a downshift adequately on a fast approach to a gnarly uphill section, and stalled out trying to turn over a too-big gear, only to look down at the cassette and see that the chain's only made it half way there. I've adjusted to the change, and I prefer to take that compromise and enjoy all the other 1x benefits, but it's a downgrade in that particular situation vs a dialed 2x.

    AND THAT'S what's interesting to me about Shimano's strategy....notice that their doubles and triples now have a 10t difference between rings... this improves front shifting SOOO much (even on an "old fashion" mechanical drivetrain) and gives that equivalent 2 cog downshift that is MONEY in technical terrain with lots of abrupt up/down. That combined with Di2, which is widely regarded as being a game changer for front shifting, may be enough to keep the multi ring drivetrain thriving into the future. Granted, there's a lot of momentum the other direction, but only a fool counts out Shimano. The 11-40 cassette allows them to do this and offer the widest range on the market for multi-ring setups, along with 1x range that's probably wide enough for at least the XTR 1x target market....weight weenie racer boys.

    Modular, interchangeable.... Looks like a XTR 11sp group will adapt easily to 1x, 2x, 3x...and it looks like no new freehub is required.

    So, my question is.... Is Shimano's XTR team wagging their finger at SRAM and all the 1x11 adopters and saying "Not so fast....multi-rings still have legs and here's why.
    I went from 1X back to a front derailer for this very reason, very interesting take on Shimanos motivation for the latest offerings.

    I would really like to see something like a 4-speed internal hub mech stuffed in the BB shell with 6 cogs on a single speed rear hub for rapid down shifts, improved chain line, wider spoke flanges, and better weight/ CG bias.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yody View Post
    System won't let me spread rep again to you.

    Jeesuz that was the most spot on post I have seen on mtbr in a long time. Totally agree with every single point made.
    Agreed, rep inbound.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yody View Post
    How long have you been running a single ring? I've been running one for over 3 years I believe or something like that and I don't want a FD on my All Mountain bike but I'd totally rock one on a XC/trail bike. Theres no replacement for a 2x10 or even a 3x9 if you're doing longer rides. I can bust out 25 milers (with difficult terrain) but I'm pretty much hammered by the end of that ride. With a 2x10 you have such a good spread you can go longer, harder, and faster both up, flat, and down.

    If you would of asked me a year after I went single I would of cursed a front derailleur too, but at this point I understand why sometimes you still need them. They're not really that bad. Especially with this new Di2 and clutch derailleurs.
    I am 2.5 years in on my 1x setups. I do have a lot of different front rings for my 1x11 setup from 32-38, but have only changed once. I did throw on my 32 for the Dville Classic climb. My local rides are 15-20 miles with 2500-3K of climbing. It is understandable that some people want a 2x setup, but 99% of the riders I know on XX1 will never go back. Same for running chainguides which looks like it might be a requirement without NW rings.

    CR I am in Socal and do San Juan and Noble fairly regularly.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salespunk View Post
    CR I am in Socal and do San Juan and Noble fairly regularly.
    Nice!! I've ridden San Juan many years ago. Nice trail!! I've never had the time to do Noble but it looks sweet….

    Just to put some perspective on just how different regional terrain can be and how our needs are very different even in Cali.

    Local ride here is 25 to 50 miles with 4k to 9k feet of climbing, Black Diamond to Mt Diablo & back. One dirt section on the way up to the summit averages 20% grade. Unfortunately, You need to climb it to get get down the hill via Devils Elbow, but it's worth the pain : )

    Although, I don't have Brian Lopes and Johnny O' setting fast times and mucking things up like you do : )

    Do a bunch of other Nor-Cal rides too, (which 1x would be OK) but that one is right outside my door. Don't have load the bike in the truck.

    Anyways, (for me) the 1x setup just really didn't work out well here. I tried to love it but….

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yody View Post
    Theres no replacement for a 2x10 or even a 3x9 if you're doing longer rides. I can bust out 25 milers (with difficult terrain) but I'm pretty much hammered by the end of that ride. With a 2x10 you have such a good spread you can go longer, harder, and faster both up, flat, and down.

    In the end, this is why Shimano will still offer a triple. There is no right or wrong answer here really, only choice.

    Some will choose SRAM, but I'm willing to bet Shimano will sell more units than SRAM worldwide. Picking up most of the broader market share via. OEM, XC, DH, Di2 geek factor etc… at the cost of alienating some of the narrower vertical markets.

    Some may not like it, but its why Shimano has been around for so long. Profit.

    Anyone remember Suntour? : )

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salespunk View Post
    As for running 2x, FD's are dead for anyone that has run XX1. I will never, ever run an FD again. Shimano is an engineering focused organization, but in my view after being a Shimano/XTR guy for 25 years they missed the mark by not using the SRAM XD driver as the basis for their new setup. It's not like SRAM didn't use the Shimano standard for 20 years. I understand they will probably argue that they want to support the standard freehub already out there, but they changed that standard for Dura Ace recently so it rings somewhat hollow for me.
    Agreed, and Agreed.... I've been singing at the FD's funeral right along with you brah, and the freehub standard argument if they were to make it isn't all that impressive....although I suspect that they'd make an engineering argument against the 10t....longevity with the small number of teeth, chain wrap...something... just speculating. The frame design freedom opened up by the (potential?) death of the FD is REALLY compelling too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cable0guy View Post
    I think most of us are mainly expressing disappointment at Shimano for not innovating and making a half-@ss attempt at trying to do a single ring setup. I like XX1, but would have liked to see Shimano come up with something as good if not better.
    Yeah, there wouldn't be much to talk about and a lot of high fives among Shimano fans, myself included, if they had simply copied SRAM's approach....but I wouldn't call that innovating...the opposite in fact. That's part of what makes this interesting....they could have had a critical and commercial hit by just doing a 1x10/42, but they didn't? Is it purely corporate pride and stubbornness? Or do they know something we don't and will we all be saying 2 years from now what many are saying now about XX1..."Everybody I know who's tried a Di2 double will never go back". If I were betting on it, I'd say no, but I'll withhold judgement until the stuff's out .

    Quote Originally Posted by Yody View Post
    System won't let me spread rep again to you.
    Thanks dude. Pushing 50 with a cranky wife and mounting debt, I'll take all the affirmation I can get! LOL

    Quote Originally Posted by crconsulting View Post
    Exactly, not to mention if you are actually using your mountain bike as a "mountain bike".

    Not sure where you guys ride but in some parts of Cali or CO. You're going to need that gear spread. Not just to ride up, but to ride down, as salespunk mentioned. The hamster spin just isn't efficient on those 50 milers. Don't know about you guys, but I just like to ride, so that means long days in the saddle. Mostly with lots of variation in terrain. Not necessarily what one would consider XC but not pump track either.

    Back in the old days we used to call it a "mountain bike ride". Made it easier that way : )


    Reading MTBR has a funny way of twisting one's sense of reality as everyone uses their bikes differently : )
    I kind of laugh when I read people blindly giving advice not realizing their terrain and usage will be much different than someone else's needs.

    FOR MANY, Unless you're looking for a "single purpose" bike. There's still no replacement for a good gear spread. no matter how you reach it.

    1 x 11, 2 x 10, 3 x 10 or 3 x 9 (which as far as I see it, still the widest spread)
    Good stuff

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Richard View Post
    I went from 1X back to a front derailer for this very reason, very interesting take on Shimanos motivation for the latest offerings.

    I would really like to see something like a 4-speed internal hub mech stuffed in the BB shell with 6 cogs on a single speed rear hub for rapid down shifts, improved chain line, wider spoke flanges, and better weight/ CG bias.
    Now THAT really would be innovative.... I'd think that a 3x7 or 8 would be the ticket, but whatever, splitting hairs.... smooth & instant front shifts even if coasting, no multi-ring induced suspension/packaging headaches, zero dish rear wheels.......seems like this has been simmering on the back burner for SOOO long, but I guess the internal mech efficiency, weight, and/or durability have kept it down.... or maybe just market inertia.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salespunk View Post
    It is understandable that some people want a 2x setup, but 99% of the riders I know on XX1 will never go back. Same for running chainguides which looks like it might be a requirement without NW rings.
    WORD... I've never heard any XX1 converts say "Man, I sure miss my front derailleur."... Haha. I ran across a chainguide in a box in my garage the other day, which is where I'd like it to stay!


    I'm just raising questions more than defending a "side" or something. If not for kid's tuition and other realities (aka. f*cked up sh!t I wish I didn't have to deal with but I do) I'd already be on XX1 HDR or Mach6. (Yeah, you're my f'n hero SP! Haha).

    That quick 2 gear dump (or lack of, I should say) is really the ONLY downside I've felt with a 1x setup... If I were still riding the trails I used to in Norcal (climb for 45 min, then descend nonstop for a few miles) it might not ever have occurred to me, but Austin riding is entirely different...and I have to say, more challenging. When I moved back here after working in the biz and riding all over the Peninsula/Santa Cruz/ Marin for 5 years with a bunch of BOSSES, I thought I was all that and a side of gravy, and I got my D!ck knocked in the dirt coming back to Austin trails. Haha!

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by doismellbacon
    That quick 2 gear dump (or lack of, I should say) is really the ONLY downside I've felt with a 1x setup...
    Well, these days you got a remote for the dropper seatpost and whatever else, so it is one less control I have to worry about. Besides, if you can shift quickly and sometimes multiple times, you can drop the rear by several gears at a time. Not as good as dropping a FD, buy good enough for most cases.

  38. #38
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    Yep.... agreed!

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by doismellbacon View Post
    I'm just raising questions more than defending a "side" or something.
    Whaaaaat? Pick a chainring and be a dick about it!!!

    Hahhaha! I remember the old days, when we ALL just hated roadies!
    Things were so much simpler back then

  40. #40
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    XTR is now split into Trail and XC Race. Any chance we are seeing the Race side of things right now? Maybe they are coming out with a trail set up as well.

    Shimano has a bunch of athletes competing in Enduro, most noteable Graves. Most of them are already running 1X set ups. I cant imagine shimano would hang them out to dry if their SRAM sponsored competition was gaining that much of an advantage.

    As a Shimano hold out, I'm hoping they have something in the works. For now my 2x10 works pretty darn well. I just can't see losing all the top end by going 1x and running a 28 or 30 ring. I would prefer a 32 or 34 ring, but with the 11-36 I would be haggered after most rides. I know it works for some, but climbing 5K+ with limited gears doesn't sound like fun to me.

  41. #41
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    No good To Each Their Own

    This is an interesting thread, partly because it's happening on the Ibis board and not in the Drivetrain etc board!

    I was 1x curious, went to XX1 last fall and for the most part have loved it. That said, there have definitely been a few times when I wish I could drop into a granny during a really long, all day slog. But that was with the stock 32t on my HDR. Just got a 30t and will give that a go. Mostly I'm digging the sweet silence and reliability of the SRAM stuff.

    On my hardtail I've got 3x9 as I've had for a million years and it's fine.

    I love my XTR brakes, but right now the XX1 stuff is working well and certainly don't see myself switching to XTR for drivetrain anytime soon. My primary beef with what I'm seeing here with the new kit is that it looks budget fugly, not top of the line. Too much stamped (or stamped looking) material.

    As was pointed out on a Ridemonkey thread ( I think ) it totally reminds me of the super low end Shimano kit.

    2015 Shimano XTR Di2 & 1x11 preview-shimano-fc-m171-42t.jpg
    - -benja- -

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    Quote Originally Posted by doismellbacon View Post
    Now THAT really would be innovative.... I'd think that a 3x7 or 8 would be the ticket, but whatever, splitting hairs.... smooth & instant front shifts even if coasting, no multi-ring induced suspension/packaging headaches, zero dish rear wheels.......seems like this has been simmering on the back burner for SOOO long, but I guess the internal mech efficiency, weight, and/or durability have kept it down.... or maybe just market inertia.
    I put many miles on a 3x7 drive train all through the 90’s and love, loved it! I think I shifted with the front more often than the rear with that old set up.

    I do agree with you about the design constraints of an internal mech or mtb transmission keeping it at a weight/ efficiency disadvantage at present, Hammerschmidt was a tease. Multi ring drives are less than ideal for me as I’m a fan of single pivot suspension. Oh how I would love to see the Roloff folks develop an oil bath 4 spd mech that would fit inside a PF30 BB shell. Shimano, take a trip to Germany and head hunt some talent to make this happen please, Nexus has got nothin' on that Roloff.

  43. #43
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    [/QOUTE]I thought I was all that and a side of gravy, and I got my D!ck knocked in the dirt coming back to Austin trails. Haha![/QUOTE]

    I had exactly the same thing happen to me except I was coming to Austin from NorCal for the first time in '06. I randomly bumped into an old friend from my hometown (Chico), at Whole Foods and he asked if still rode and wanted to hit the trails with him sometime soon. I brought my bike but still had yet to hit the Barton Creek Greenbelt so I said "Yell yeah", with an enthusiastic cockiness in my tone. Oh boy, was I in for a surprise.

    We dropped in at the "Hill of Life". I was on a hard tail and he was on a duel suspension. He said "meet you at the bottom", and we dropped in. Right off the bat, it was loose, ledgy, and chunky. He dropped me in less than a hundred feet and honestly, at first, I didn't think he could . By the time I got to the bottom I was demoralized but luckily, on the way down, I rapidly discovered a new found respect for "Hill Country" trails. I still remember the grin he had on his face when he saw how shocked I was.

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by t.e.c.1 View Post
    [/QOUTE]I thought I was all that and a side of gravy, and I got my D!ck knocked in the dirt coming back to Austin trails. Haha!
    I had exactly the same thing happen to me except I was coming to Austin from NorCal for the first time in '06. I randomly bumped into an old friend from my hometown (Chico), at Whole Foods and he asked if still rode and wanted to hit the trails with him sometime soon. I brought my bike but still had yet to hit the Barton Creek Greenbelt so I said "Yell yeah", with an enthusiastic cockiness in my tone. Oh boy, was I in for a surprise.

    We dropped in at the "Hill of Life". I was on a hard tail and he was on a duel suspension. He said "meet you at the bottom", and we dropped in. Right off the bat, it was loose, ledgy, and chunky. He dropped me in less than a hundred feet and honestly, at first, I didn't think he could . By the time I got to the bottom I was demoralized but luckily, on the way down, I rapidly discovered a new found respect for "Hill Country" trails. I still remember the grin he had on his face when he saw how shocked I was.[/QUOTE]

    Yeah buddy. HoL, and all the "Ed's Bowl" trails just off of it will separate the men from the boys pretty quickly.

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    has anybody here ponied up for one of these? I saw some stuff on ebay, and it looks like entry level (cluster, shifter, rear derailleur) is about $1200. I hope the XT version is a little more affordable!

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