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Thread: GT Force

  1. #1
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    GT Force

    I'm in the market now for an all mountain or enduro bike and looking at the Sanction and the Force. I really wish GT had slackened the head angle of the force because I would be better off on that lighter bike for 75% of my riding, then on the Sanction, but I don't want a bike with a HA steeper than around 68. Actually 67.5 would be perfect.

    The slackest bike I ever had (I'm mainly a XC rider on the All Mountain side of XC), was my old 2005 Turner 5 Spot Horst Link, that had a 69 degree HA with a Rock Shox Revelation 130 I think it was.

    Now, 69 isn't gonna cut it.

    The Force is a 150mm bike and GT is calling it all mountain, yet gave it a relatively steep HA.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbkrdr98 View Post
    I'm in the market now for an all mountain or enduro bike and looking at the Sanction and the Force. I really wish GT had slackened the head angle of the force because I would be better off on that lighter bike for 75% of my riding, then on the Sanction, but I don't want a bike with a HA steeper than around 68. Actually 67.5 would be perfect.

    The slackest bike I ever had (I'm mainly a XC rider on the All Mountain side of XC), was my old 2005 Turner 5 Spot Horst Link, that had a 69 degree HA with a Rock Shox Revelation 130 I think it was.

    Now, 69 isn't gonna cut it.

    The Force is a 150mm bike and GT is calling it all mountain, yet gave it a relatively steep HA.
    if you want a older 2009 or so model, keep your eye on nashbar.com because i've seen some frames popping up even though most were sold during the recent sale they had.
    nobody said they finished selling them,right?
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    Just buy the force and a 1.5 works components angle set and Bang you have a force with a 67.5 head angle.

    but for me i would go for the 66ha of the sanction every day of the week.

    And why would GT build 2 lines of bikes so close to one and other? the force and sanction are aimed at differen parts of the market, now a sanction frame with a light build would be hot. where is that Force LE?

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    Read my review of the Carbon Force Expert......I was looking for a AM bike...aaaaaaaaand I feel the Force is lacking in the headtube angle department. I WOULD have liked Fox 36 as well. Otherwise, it's a great bike.

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    The Force and the Sanction are the same, the only difference are the rear dropout and fork. The Force has a 150mm fork and the Sanction has a 160mm. Now go back to trig and calculate what happens to a triangle when you increase the length of one side. It may change an angle...........show your work.

    If you don't believe me look at the specs of a Force and a Sanction on GTs site. The bottom bracket height even goes up. So, if you manage to score a Force frame and are building from scratch put a 160mm fork on it. Problem solved.

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    Quote Originally Posted by quaz View Post
    The Force and the Sanction are the same, the only difference are the rear dropout and fork. The Force has a 150mm fork and the Sanction has a 160mm. Now go back to trig and calculate what happens to a triangle when you increase the length of one side. It may change an angle...........show your work.

    If you don't believe me look at the specs of a Force and a Sanction on GTs site. The bottom bracket height even goes up. So, if you manage to score a Force frame and are building from scratch put a 160mm fork on it. Problem solved.
    The front triangle is also different in terms of construction, which can be seen in the use of gussets for the Sanction/Force LE. And I do not know the exact math but, from what I have read increasing your fork length by 10mm does not equate to a full 3 degrees of change.

    Bryan

    PS - I have the Workscomponents 1.5 degree cups on my 2011 Force and I am very happy with it.
    Just keep pedaling, don't stop pedaling.

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    Measurements from my force size Medium:
    Wheelbase=W 109cm
    Fork height=F 54.5cm
    Head angle=H 69'
    Calculated distance=D from rear axle to fork 103cm....verified by measuring.

    If you keep D=103, increase F to 55.5 and increase W to 110.5 by taping straight edge to fork and measuring from 1cm further down. Now calculate for H=67'. But wait, the sanction has a top tube longer by 1cm. So change W to 111 you will get H=66'.

    Now what if you put a 170mm fork on:
    D=103
    F=56.5
    W=112
    Calculate for H and wow 66'

    So you could change the headset and add a 160mm fork for an angle of 66 or you could just put on a 170mm fork.

    Notice the Force LE also has a 160mm front fork and the Sanction longer top tube.
    Last edited by quaz; 08-18-2012 at 08:32 PM.

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    It's an interesting compromise, I feel that the weight/ travel of the Force makes for the ideal trail bike for our aggressive Florida trails. obviously on basic singletrack the travel of the Force would be a waste, as well as the lighter construction would be not suited for serious jumping, IMO. But, we have some crazy tech trails and I like the balance between the steeper head angle and the 5" travel. Works perfect for me.............
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    Quote Originally Posted by quaz View Post
    Measurements from my force size Medium:
    Wheelbase=W 109cm
    Fork height=F 54.5cm
    Head angle=H 66'
    Calculated distance=D from rear axle to fork 103cm....verified by measuring.

    If you keep D=103, increase F to 55.5 and increase W to 110.5 by taping straight edge to fork and measuring from 1cm further down. Now calculate for H=67'. But wait, the sanction has different rear axle mounts. If they are .5cm longer and change W to 111 you will get H=66'.

    Now what if you put a 170mm fork on:
    D=103
    F=56.5
    W=112
    Calculate for H and wow 66'

    So you could convert the rear dropouts and add a 160mm fork for an angle of 66 or you could just put on a 170mm fork.

    Notice the Force LE also has a 160mm front fork and the Sanction rear drops.
    as bryan_d said above, different front end but same rear end. the sanction is not only slacker but 10mm longer in the top tube for each given size

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    Quote Originally Posted by herb1234 View Post
    as bryan_d said above, different front end but same rear end. the sanction is not only slacker but 10mm longer in the top tube for each given size
    Yep, that dawned on me 10 minutes after I posted. Same math but that accounts for the extra 1cm. Read my edit above for the correct 2 options to get a 66' head angle. Actually just going to a 160mm fork and getting 67' is pretty damn close. That is what I plan on putting on mine this winter when I tear it down for maintenance.

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    We really should be riding instead...

    Quote Originally Posted by quaz View Post
    Yep, that dawned on me 10 minutes after I posted. Same math but that accounts for the extra 1cm. Read my edit above for the correct 2 options to get a 66' head angle. Actually just going to a 160mm fork and getting 67' is pretty damn close. That is what I plan on putting on mine this winter when I tear it down for maintenance.
    As much as I appreciate your efforts in calculating the angles, even with the inaccuracy of your own measurements (unless you are a frame builder who has the proper tools to measure the frame) I just find it hard to believe that 10cm can give a full 2 degrees of change.

    This are from Ibis bikes:

    "68º head angle with 150mm travel fork (vs 67º with HD and a 160mm fork)"

    This is from Canfield:



    Here is more nerdyness to visit:

    The bike geek corner of COTIC cycles

    Notice that at most, 10cm can give 1 degree.

    Bryan

    PS - the Force already has a tall bottom bracket and increasing the fork length will just add to it.
    Just keep pedaling, don't stop pedaling.

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    the rule of thumb tends to be +25mm of Axel to crown height for 1 dregee slacker HA. but that will also jack up the bb and slacken off the seat tube.

    Bryan how goes the angle set on you force?

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    Quote Originally Posted by herb1234 View Post
    the rule of thumb tends to be +25mm of Axel to crown height for 1 dregee slacker HA. but that will also jack up the bb and slacken off the seat tube.

    Bryan how goes the angle set on you force?
    Hey Herb,

    The Workscomponents is really nice on the steep stuff, and climbing is actually better with it too due to the steeper seat angle which I noticed right away; with no change to the seat I found that climbing steep hills the nose of the saddle did not have to be directly on the old chocolate starfish to get traction.

    My brother who has the same bike also feels the difference compared to his stock Force and will soon get the same headset too.

    Bryan
    Just keep pedaling, don't stop pedaling.

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    So, which of those headset cup combos fits the force? When I checked out their site, I felt so old school..

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    Quote Originally Posted by snodrift View Post
    So, which of those headset cup combos fits the force? When I checked out their site, I felt so old school..
    GT Sanction and Force reference thread
    Just keep pedaling, don't stop pedaling.

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    i didn't follow everything,but i think the 2009 sanction doesn't need an angleset, right?
    I wast hinking of using a FSA Pig Pro DH for that one.
    Any thoughts?
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    not unless you want to go slacker than 66 ha.

    the pigs are a good head set but may be a bit over kill.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bryan_d View Post
    Thanks man. Placing it on the wish list..

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    Quote Originally Posted by bryan_d View Post
    The front triangle is also different in terms of construction, which can be seen in the use of gussets for the Sanction/Force LE. And I do not know the exact math but, from what I have read increasing your fork length by 10mm does not equate to a full 3 degrees of change.

    Bryan

    PS - I have the Workscomponents 1.5 degree cups on my 2011 Force and I am very happy with it.
    I read somewhere that 20mm additional height to the headtube slackens the HTA by 1 degree. is that right? So 160mm fork on the Force (with a standard headset) would make it out to have a 68.5 degree hta?

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    Anybody ever thought about putting a 29er wheel and fork on a Force or Sanction and making a 96er "franken-bike"?
    roccowt.
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    Quote Originally Posted by natzx7 View Post
    It's an interesting compromise, I feel that the weight/ travel of the Force makes for the ideal trail bike for our aggressive Florida trails. obviously on basic singletrack the travel of the Force would be a waste, as well as the lighter construction would be not suited for serious jumping, IMO. But, we have some crazy tech trails and I like the balance between the steeper head angle and the 5" travel. Works perfect for me.............
    THIS. haha. I agree with you on that (albeit im not from Florida).

    I'm more of an aggressive trail rider than an all out AM guy who does jumps, drops and other stuff on trail features. I do ride my Force hard but not as much as some guys - the 69degree hta does feel restrictive when i go downhills but so far I'm pretty happy with the stock headset (although i wouldn't mind upgrading to a sealed bearing system).

    If I find a works component angle set I wouldn't mind getting it - but since availability of the product here (Manila, PHL) isn't reliable, i'd rather save up for a 160mm fork.

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    Quote Originally Posted by prancisfena View Post
    If I find a works component angle set I wouldn't mind getting it - but since availability of the product here (Manila, PHL) isn't reliable, i'd rather save up for a 160mm fork.

    the works componets head sets tend to only be from there online shop. and they do a first rate job of looking after that as well. they shipped mine from the UK to New Zealand in under 7 days.

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    Quote Originally Posted by herb1234 View Post
    the works componets head sets tend to only be from there online shop. and they do a first rate job of looking after that as well. they shipped mine from the UK to New Zealand in under 7 days.
    How was the shipping cost? If it's minimal I wouldn't mind ordering one by the end of the year

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    the cost of the head set and shipping was what i would have paid for a good head set from my LBS, $NZ100ish
    Last edited by herb1234; 08-24-2012 at 01:45 AM.

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    To add,

    I also paid $110.00 shipped to San Jose, CA USA in less than 2 weeks. Great customer support as well.

    Keep in mind however, if you have the Carbon version then it is a no-go.

    Bryan
    Just keep pedaling, don't stop pedaling.

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    Any force pro carbon owners here? I ride a 2010 enduro which I love for the downhill but it's slack frame is killing me on all the steep climbs. There's a guy who wants to trade me his force carbon pro but it's deterrent is that the fork has 32mm sanctions and a 15mm axle. I imagine swapping it out for a talas 36 it should put it right on par with the enduro but a little more climb friendly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bryan_d View Post
    To add,

    I also paid $110.00 shipped to San Jose, CA USA in less than 2 weeks. Great customer support as well.

    Keep in mind however, if you have the Carbon version then it is a no-go.

    Bryan
    COOL! Just found a guy who sells these LOCALLY! Amazing. Might get one soon... depending on the overall cost HAHA.

    thanks guys!

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by ihaveagibsonsg View Post
    Any force pro carbon owners here? I ride a 2010 enduro which I love for the downhill but it's slack frame is killing me on all the steep climbs. There's a guy who wants to trade me his force carbon pro but it's deterrent is that the fork has 32mm sanctions and a 15mm axle. I imagine swapping it out for a talas 36 it should put it right on par with the enduro but a little more climb friendly.
    The fork won't make much of difference I'm willing to bet. You are going to miss that 66 degree head angle of the Enduro when things start pointing down.

    TALAS maybe?

    Just my opinion.
    Just keep pedaling, don't stop pedaling.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by ihaveagibsonsg View Post
    Any force pro carbon owners here? I ride a 2010 enduro which I love for the downhill but it's slack frame is killing me on all the steep climbs. There's a guy who wants to trade me his force carbon pro but it's deterrent is that the fork has 32mm sanctions and a 15mm axle. I imagine swapping it out for a talas 36 it should put it right on par with the enduro but a little more climb friendly.
    I have a force carbon, but the expert and not the pro version. If i'm not mistaken, the main difference are the xt vs xtr components. I also haven't ridden the spec enduro so i have no reference for comparison. I can say though that the force, esp with the talas set to the shortest travel makes all the climb easier, at least where i ride (Boise), and we do have some climbs here. Descends arent so bad, but then again there's not a lot of techy stuff here. i haven't tried a slacker ha bike either. Sounds like you may need to compromise. Id say try the bike for a day or two if you can, then decide from there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bryan_d View Post
    Hey Herb,

    The Workscomponents is really nice on the steep stuff, and climbing is actually better with it too due to the steeper seat angle which I noticed right away; with no change to the seat I found that climbing steep hills the nose of the saddle did not have to be directly on the old chocolate starfish to get traction.

    My brother who has the same bike also feels the difference compared to his stock Force and will soon get the same headset too.

    Bryan
    Can you explain more on how the bike rides with the angle set?
    I was looking at a 2012 force but the head angle looks to steep and the sanction is a bit too much for what i ride. the force with an angle set seems like it would be ideal.

    thanks

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by babooski92 View Post
    Can you explain more on how the bike rides with the angle set?
    I was looking at a 2012 force but the head angle looks to steep and the sanction is a bit too much for what i ride. the force with an angle set seems like it would be ideal.

    thanks
    Rides great.

    Improvement all around except for super-tight switchbacks (somewhat floppy) but nothing I couldn't adjust too coming from a 29er. Climbing is better, performing steep drops is not as "scary going to flip forward" feeling anymore, and the slightly lower BB is great too.

    Bryan

    PS - when I get my school funds sorted I'll be looking to purchase those offset bushings too.
    Just keep pedaling, don't stop pedaling.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by ihaveagibsonsg View Post
    Any force pro carbon owners here? I ride a 2010 enduro which I love for the downhill but it's slack frame is killing me on all the steep climbs. There's a guy who wants to trade me his force carbon pro but it's deterrent is that the fork has 32mm sanctions and a 15mm axle. I imagine swapping it out for a talas 36 it should put it right on par with the enduro but a little more climb friendly.
    Thaaaaaaaaat's my plan for next year. This year has been "so-so" with the Force, but I'm getting to know her a little better. She's a bit temperamental....as in your crusing a gnarly trail, happy as only trail can make you, then suddenly (and VERY fast) she goes all nervous and jittery on my ass. The Force is very nimble, agile and fast. So when you go fast together and you suddenly have to correct the front end a little......it can have dramatic effects. I've found out that most times, it's better to just follow with then force the Force (hehe). Short wheelbase and headtube angle is mostly to blame here I think.

    But headangle is too steep, so is seattube. As you mention, the fork is not the best confidence builder. It's too "light".....a 36 Talas kind of forces itself down on the ground, the 32 more of a feathery follower of it (if you understand?).

    Angle-bearings (as the Carbon wont take Anglesets because of the IS) and Fox 36.

    Mind you.......as is, the Force is way way WAY better at trails were you have to actually rotate the crankarms. If you manly ride lift/bus/shuttle/push accessed trails, this is NOT for you. If you pedal TO the trail and it's at least 40-50% up, the bike is almost perfect.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by zarr View Post
    Anybody ever thought about putting a 29er wheel and fork on a Force or Sanction and making a 96er "franken-bike"?
    mine has 650b front and rear, rides very nice, rolls better with very little loss of manuverability.
    Quote Originally Posted by HamfisT
    I understand that engineering has value in and of itself. But in the end, it's still just a pile of aluminum tubes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nick d View Post
    mine has 650b front and rear, rides very nice, rolls better with very little loss of manuverability.
    Nick-
    What fork, rims tires did you use?
    You have a Force, right? i'm wondering if my Sanction will work like that.
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  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by zarr View Post
    Nick-
    What fork, rims tires did you use?
    You have a Force, right? i'm wondering if my Sanction will work like that.
    The fork is a 26" fox talas 100 120 140. Wheels are American classic 650bxc. Tires are Kenda nevgal 2.35 front, 2.1 rear.the clearance is minimal on the back but it does fit. The nevgals are very big for their size, other tires may fit even better.
    Quote Originally Posted by HamfisT
    I understand that engineering has value in and of itself. But in the end, it's still just a pile of aluminum tubes.

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