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  1. #1
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    Depressed after the Trance purchase-me or the bike?

    It's not that I regret spending thousands of dollars in the last three months on bikes, it's just that I can't get one bike to do everything. See, I bought a nice Giant XTC '06 frame, with a Fox R 80 mm on the front, all Deore components (which worked pretty well) and it was kick ass. It was fast, reasonably light, and even ate up the miles on the rode when my group in Shanghai (which is forced to ride on the rode at least half the time due to NO "country side" here) went out.

    Then, after getting the word that I'd be going to Bolivia, I decided I HAD to have a FS bike. SO, I ordered an '05 frame from the states which my Mother in Law brought over, then I bought a full set of XT components (for a steal of a deal-$600), then I got some 321's laced to my XT hubs, and I stole the Fox shock off my old bike and voila! I have a new bike.

    I took it out the first day and experienced both extreme joy, and some dissapointment. First, I realized that with a full suspension rig, I could roll over and through stuff I could never have before due to the rear suspension keeping me glued to the ground--that was cool. But then I realized that I had to buy a longer stem, as I was kind of hunched up on the bike (I had opted for the 18 instead of the 20)--so now I'm running a 120 cm. Finally, I realized that I'm MUCH slower on the rode than I was with my HT. I suspect that I have too high expectations for this bike, as if it could possible "do it all." Am I just suffering from a lack of the right environment for this thing? Should I put my HT back together, and wait until I hit bolivia to bust it back out? Is 29.5 lbs a beast of a bike?

    Any thoughts on my dissapointment/expections for this thing would be greatly appreciated.
    Matt

  2. #2
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    are you slower according to your bike computer/speedo, or just feel slower? the 2 bikes are very different; the HT gives far more 'feel' and feedback through the seat, also providing the sensation of going faster and harder.

    but weight is obviously a factor, plus the FS is not as efficient if it 'bobs'.

    it's the usual HT vs FS argument. the HT has the potential to be faster, but far less forgiving on your body and technique. once you go offroad into demanding, technical single trail or similar, the FS will come into its own, and you'll finish off feeling far fresher then going as hard on the HT, which will sap your energy.

    in the ideal world, you have at least 2 bikes, a HT and FS, to suit your ride.

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  3. #3
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    29.5lbs?!!

    My (older) Giant hardtail is 31.
    29.5 sounds good to me for FS...

  4. #4
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    what do you ride?

  5. #5
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    It's DEFINITELY YOU...................

    Seriously dude WTF is up w/ you and what are you thinking?? You're trying to compare a FS bike to a HT on the road there's gona be no comparison on that smooth terrain, the HT will obviously climb better and faster and more than likely accelrate faster also.

    At first I was worried we had actually found someone who had bought a Trance (in the right size) and was riding it off-road (which is where it's designed to be riden) and not liking it - but that's not you I'll address a few issues first that will help you out.

    and I stole the Fox shock off my old bike and voila! I have a new bike.
    #1 - You've put too short a fork on that Trance - it is designed to run a 100-120mm fork - so you're missing out on a much nicer, plusher, handling ride.

    I took it out the first day and experienced both extreme joy, and some dissapointment. First, I realized that with a full suspension rig, I could roll over and through stuff I could never have before due to the rear suspension keeping me glued to the ground--that was cool.
    #1b -As stated above you'd be enjoying this even more with the 100mm fork so plan on buying one for it. I'd recomend the REBA

    But then I realized that I had to buy a longer stem, as I was kind of hunched up on the bike (I had opted for the 18 instead of the 20)--so now I'm running a 120 cm
    #2 - Of course you'll be disapionted is you bought the wrong size bike, anyone would - it's not the bikes' fault and nothing to do with it's design. However you might find it interesting that (at least my 22"/XL) came with a 120mm, 6 degree stem, which I changed to a 100mm 5 degree reversed. You could also try a seatback seatpost fi you don't already have one, since the Trance complete bike comes with one and I find w/ it's design and if the bike is a pretty bang on fit it's pretty much needed - my T3 came w/ a Easton EA50 post.

    Finally, I realized that I'm MUCH slower on the rode than I was with my HT.
    #3 - You seriously couldn't have expected a FS bike to be faster on the road than HT could you? They're generally lighter than a FS, have a rigid rear - so better acceleration.


    Here's some advice that might you actually help you enjoy your bike more.......... 1 -Get a 100-120mm travel fork, 2 - If you wish to ride the bike on the road get some slicks or semi-slicks and jack up the PSI in both the shock and the fork - I run my shock@250 on road 190-200 off road and the fork@150 on road & 90 -100 off road, 3 - Try a seatback seatpost to extend the cockpit, BUT make sure you keep your body/knee placement where it shoudl be to avoid knee injury or other body aches & pains, 4 - YES put your HT back up w/ some semi slicks/slicks to ride the road, buy the correct travel fork and ride the Trance off road.

    Any other question that's what this forum is for and YES that's a decent weight for a FS bike, but you can lower it if you wish and have the cash.
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  6. #6
    kks
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    dude, trance is a trail bike, not for road. u r slower cos its heavier and its there is a rear shock. u cant compare a FS to a HT. both r totally different ride.

    btw, wtf is a 80mm fork on a trance??!!

  7. #7
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    That is my big beef with most full suspension bikes. No rear lockout which will make it feel like a hardtail. The spv shocks do OK in the saddle but out of the saddle they don't stop the bobbing. My cheap KHS with rear lockout feels great on the road or out of the saddle efforts.
    My friend bought a TREK full suspension with handlebar activated front and rear lockout. Perhaps you would be happier with something like that.

  8. #8
    "El Whatever"
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    Yup... sorry... not to beat you up, but what the others said is true... it's you, not the bike.

    The Trance already has a steep seat angle (73° at the tube, like 71° with the offset at the saddle). Put in a 80mm fork with a shorter axle to crown measurement, and you'll decrease the wheelbase, increase the Headtube angle, lower the Bottom Bracket, put in a longer stem, unweight the rear end.

    You were praying for trouble with that set-up. The bike will bob more (drop your weight all the weight forward and mash the pedals and you'll see what I mean), will feel sketchy and nervous and it will pedal for sheit.

    Make the corrections Lynx mentioned. Also, whatever you do on a FS bike, don't stand on the pedals to accelerate!! Stay seated, spin the cranks and the bike will shoot itself forwards. Let the suspension flow, learn to pedal. there's a reason why road racers spin the cranks rather than mashing the pedals and they ride HT's.

    OTOH... once you be rolling on the Bolivian Mountains, you'll not want your HT. It will rattle your teeth and will make less enjoyable the ride by the 2nd hour. We ride at high here in Mexico City... La Paz is way higher. A HT is lighter and (arguably) more efficient at the cranks but on rough terrain requires more body english to handle it. A FS is less efficient at the cranks but it's more relaxed and allows you to go for much longer.

    Seriously, get the Trance tuned up and enjoy it... if you don't put it in a box with Mexico City as destination. I will take care of dispose it properly. I ride a 18.5" Giant and fits me like a glove. A Trance frame is something I get only in my wet dreams.
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  9. #9
    dft
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    yep, i also have to jump on the bandwagon. what are you thinking? i thought you are talking about mountain biking, not road biking. who cares how fast it is on the raod, of course it will be slower! and 29 pounds being too heavy plus 120 mil stem, classic! i ride a 41 pound stinky dee-lux and do 5000 foot climbs with it, its a pig. but NO bike does it all, if its better for the down, its worst for the up and vice cerse. get yourself a 125 mil fork for the trance and have fun in boliva.

  10. #10
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    okay okay

    Thank you for all the comments. I'm sure you're all right, I just needed to air it, you know. I'm looking for a longer travel fork, but my wallet is still recovering from all the spending lately. Thanks a lot for responding, it feels good to know that actually, I am full of **** in this case.
    I really don't think the bike is the wrong size, b/c if Lynx's 22 inch came with a 120 mm stem, I should be okay with putting that size on my 18--it really does feel "right" with that length of stem out there (and by "right" I mean more stretched out XC style).

    Any other suggestions for a fork?

    thanks again,
    M

  11. #11
    "El Whatever"
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    Quote Originally Posted by matbaugh
    Thank you for all the comments. I'm sure you're all right, I just needed to air it, you know. I'm looking for a longer travel fork, but my wallet is still recovering from all the spending lately. Thanks a lot for responding, it feels good to know that actually, I am full of **** in this case.
    I really don't think the bike is the wrong size, b/c if Lynx's 22 inch came with a 120 mm stem, I should be okay with putting that size on my 18--it really does feel "right" with that length of stem out there (and by "right" I mean more stretched out XC style).

    Any other suggestions for a fork?

    thanks again,
    M
    Try to find out a close out on a Reba SL. You just can't beat them.

    If you're in a tight budget (and who doesn't?) take a look at the RS Tora 318 Solo Air. It will hit your wallet at 275 bucks (or less maybe if you contact Larry Mettler from mtnhighcyclery.com)... but it's head and shoulders the competition at that price. Greenfishsports.com has some interesting Manitou Blacks.

    If you feel like dropping 350 bucks (USD) you might want to contact Jared Johnson from downshiftcycles.com and get one of those sweet Marathon XC or SL. At that price, they just can't be beat.

    You're in Shangai... try to get something there. I bet it'll be cheaper than anywhere in Latinamerica.
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  12. #12
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    No problem dude, glad we could help Seriously you have a great bike that is SO upgrade worthy. As Warp said and I said earlier, try to find a RS REBA SL on close-out if not try one of their newer lower end versions or if you can find a BLACK on sale get that (heard they're nice forks). You'll definitely appreciate the 100mm fork upfront once you get to Bolivia and the ride of the Trance.

    Quote Originally Posted by matbaugh
    Thank you for all the comments. I'm sure you're all right, I just needed to air it, you know. I'm looking for a longer travel fork, but my wallet is still recovering from all the spending lately. Thanks a lot for responding, it feels good to know that actually, I am full of **** in this case.
    I really don't think the bike is the wrong size, b/c if Lynx's 22 inch came with a 120 mm stem, I should be okay with putting that size on my 18--it really does feel "right" with that length of stem out there (and by "right" I mean more stretched out XC style).

    Any other suggestions for a fork?

    thanks again,
    M
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  13. #13
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    I don't think it is "you". Coming from a hardtail to a full squishy without lockout particularly if some of your riding is on the road will sure to disapoint at least part of the time.
    Hardtail racers don't always sit and spin. Standing during sprints and during parts of climbs is essential to good performance. Look at the way one of the best climbers in the world does it, Lance Armstrong. I am sure there are riders out there that can stay seated the whole time but it sure ain't my style and probably not yours.
    As far as having the wrong fork on there, it will affect handling and downhill stability but I really doubt it will make the rear end bob much more than if you had a longer travel fork on the bike. I don't notice any difference on my VT for rear end bobbing regardless if my zokes XC is in ETA mode or full travel mode.

  14. #14
    "El Whatever"
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    Quote Originally Posted by richwolf
    As far as having the wrong fork on there, it will affect handling and downhill stability but I really doubt it will make the rear end bob much more than if you had a longer travel fork on the bike. I don't notice any difference on my VT for rear end bobbing regardless if my zokes XC is in ETA mode or full travel mode.
    Yes it will affect. It causes a bigger mass transfer during pedaling than normal... more bob.

    Read a bit more on the theory of Dave Weagle about bobbing. It's the mass transfer during pedaling that affects the more, not the force driving the pedals. Exagerating your weight too forward or backwards will create bigger mas transfers, hence bob.
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warp2003
    Yes it will affect. It causes a bigger mass transfer during pedaling than normal... more bob.

    Read a bit more on the theory of Dave Weagle about bobbing. It's the mass transfer during pedaling that affects the more, not the force driving the pedals. Exagerating your weight too forward or backwards will create bigger mas transfers, hence bob.

    Don't need to read the theory. The zokes ETA lowers the CA significantly on my VT versus when in the full travel mode and I notice little difference in the bob.Bob from front end suspension is very noticeable too when standing so that is why many forks offer lockout.
    I don't like rear end bob from my VT when standing or sprinting but the price to go to a rear lockout shock is going to cost me more than the frame and rear shock cost me initially. Don't get me wrong I really like my VT but if it was my only bike that had to do trail work and road riding then I would be bummed by the lack of rear lockout.
    The starter of the thread is probably one of the few non new bike homers out there. Most people who get a new bike particularly an expensive one think it is the greatest thing since sliced bread and look beyond the bikes shortcomings or lambast those that do not.
    My el cheapo KHS full suspension bike came with a coil over and lockout. Loved the lockout. It made it feel like a hardtail for the road or standing dirt climbs.
    When I go from my VT to my softride with front suspension fork it feels like it just wants to get up and go. Not nearly as nice in the real rocky stuff or bombing downhill but it just plain feels faster.
    I think the bike makers feel like stable platform shocks and "new suspension" technology eliminates the need for lockout but in my opinion it does not. Name me a 4 plus inch full suspension bike that does not bob without lockout while standing and pedaling?

  16. #16
    "El Whatever"
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    Quote Originally Posted by richwolf
    Don't need to read the theory.
    Then go and start you own bike company or get a job at F1... they need people like you.

    Quote Originally Posted by richwolf
    The zokes ETA lowers the CA significantly on my VT versus when in the full travel mode and I notice little difference in the bob.Bob from front end suspension is very noticeable too when standing so that is why many forks offer lockout.
    Doesn't the VT has a SPV shock?? Some food for thought.

    Also, why do you think that pedaling standing causes bob? Read DW's theory, please.


    Quote Originally Posted by richwolf
    I don't like rear end bob from my VT when standing or sprinting but the price to go to a rear lockout shock is going to cost me more than the frame and rear shock cost me initially. Don't get me wrong I really like my VT but if it was my only bike that had to do trail work and road riding then I would be bummed by the lack of rear lockout.
    Would it be because it's a 5-5.75" travel trailbike with a low monopivot?


    Quote Originally Posted by richwolf
    The starter of the thread is probably one of the few non new bike homers out there. Most people who get a new bike particularly an expensive one think it is the greatest thing since sliced bread and look beyond the bikes shortcomings or lambast those that do not.
    My el cheapo KHS full suspension bike came with a coil over and lockout. Loved the lockout. It made it feel like a hardtail for the road or standing dirt climbs.
    When I go from my VT to my softride with front suspension fork it feels like it just wants to get up and go. Not nearly as nice in the real rocky stuff or bombing downhill but it just plain feels faster.
    I've been riding since 1992 (maybe earlier according to my mother who has better memory than me. I used to ride a non-suspension bike.

    Since the first time I threw a leg over a full-susser, I knew I wouldn't be going back. Maybe because I'm an engineer (though I don't think that would be the reason), but I didn't expected my full-susser to behave like a HT. Sincerely, I didn't wanted it to feel like that. Maybe that's why I have a road bike. Boy, that feels nimble and accelerate crisply on and out the saddle.

    Seriously, I don't miss my road bike when I pedal my Warp on the road. It's a different bike, requires different technique, has a different purpouse. Expecting a FS-MTB to feel like a HT on the road or flatter surfaces it's too optimistic.

    Quote Originally Posted by richwolf
    I think the bike makers feel like stable platform shocks and "new suspension" technology eliminates the need for lockout but in my opinion it does not. Name me a 4 plus inch full suspension bike that does not bob without lockout while standing and pedaling?
    Why no lock-out?? It compromises traction. Also, when you don't cycle the pivots of your FS when taking an impact, it transmits the impact to your bearings or bushings (which is not very good), compromising the durability of the bearings and probably parts of the frame.

    A MTB is supposed to be ridden on rough terrain (especially a 4" or more MTB) and in those conditions, both pedaling standing and locking the suspension compromise traction.

    But to answer your final question, probably a high-forward monopivot would work like you do. Chain tension pulls the swingarm towards the BB avoiding suspension movement... but then, why would you??

    BTW... I ride some miles on pavement to my trailhead... I want my Warp as squishy as it is... even pedaling there.
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  17. #17
    "El Whatever"
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    Quote Originally Posted by richwolf
    Why does Trek offer a bike with dual lockout on the handle bars. They don't seem to worried about the problems you mentioned.

    I don't need DW's theories to understand how bikes work or what I and others want or need in a bike.
    Because they haven't been able to produce a decent FS bike with a decent suspension design?

    More power to you if you don't need theorys.... there are people with different needs than yours too.

    BTW... get a Rock Shox Ario with lock-out. Just released last year and the price is a steal. Then thre's the MC3.3 or Pearl with Motion Control and adjustable threshold. That or a Spech Epic or '04 Enduro Pro... that's a bike with more than 4" of travel that can be sprinted out the saddle with the suspension firmly lockout... and guess what? You don't need silly levers with that shock.
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  18. #18
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    Well I have been riding since 87!

    I used my KHS in France for one month for both road and offroad riding, since I couldn't take two bikes. Used Ritchey 1 inch slicks for the road and did tons of the TDF climbs throughout the Pyrenees and Alps. Used lockout much of the time. No pivot problems to date
    Lockout does not compromise traction offroad for the situations I use lockout in.

    My VT has a SPV shock but it doesn't stop bob. If I were to set it for less bob then I loose suspension compliance. It does not eliminate standing bob. Have you ever ridden one??

    A bike is supposed to be ridden where the rider wants to ride it. More power to you if you don't want or need lockout or if you never hit the pavement, but there are people out there with different needs and wants.

    Why does Trek offer a bike with dual lockout on the handle bars. They don't seem to worried about the problems you mentioned.

    I don't need DW's theories to understand how bikes work or what I and others want or need in a bike.

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