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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by anchskier View Post
    It's really a very simple answer. We are willing to pay the price. Simple supply and demand. As long as there is demand at the price they are charging, they will continue to charge that much. There is no reason for them to charge $1,000 for a bike when just about as many people are willing to pay $5,000 or more for it. If nobody was willing to spend $5,000+ on a bike, nobody would be selling bikes for that price.
    That logic only works if you are the only manufacturer in town. As soon as someone realizes they can take your customers by dropping their price they will.
    count your blessings

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSLKauai View Post
    Believe it or not, guitars haven't really changed that much, but amplifiers, effects, recording and electronics in general has. The original 3 guitar designs (Stratocaster, Telecaster and Les Paul) are still, 60+ years later the most popular styles by far. There are some very innovative guitars but they serve a pretty small segment of the market. Guitarists tend to be very image conscious and I think the old school designs just "feel" right for some reason. But, the analog to digital innovation has been major.
    I'm not looking to be argumentative at all. Merely discussion based questions. I'm curious what the cost of those advancements has been. It would seem to me that you could take the exact same technology from one electronic to the next.
    count your blessings

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by anchskier View Post
    It's really a very simple answer. We are willing to pay the price. Simple supply and demand. As long as there is demand at the price they are charging, they will continue to charge that much. There is no reason for them to charge $1,000 for a bike when just about as many people are willing to pay $5,000 or more for it. If nobody was willing to spend $5,000+ on a bike, nobody would be selling bikes for that price.
    Yup. Simple economics. Supply and Demand.
    People don't say, "I really want a bike, but that bike is too expensive. I will buy a high end refrigerator instead." Also, High End bikes are very much a luxury item with a high IEoD.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by wizzer16 View Post
    That logic only works if you are the only manufacturer in town. As soon as someone realizes they can take your customers by dropping their price they will.
    I actually think we're getting very close to the point where weight, components and frame dynamics are nearing a point where improvements will be harder to come by and the real innovation will turn toward competing better via value and pricing. It would not surprise me at all if in the next few years, more companies come out with an absolutely fantastic, light, well built line of bikes that are a lot cheaper. This happens all the time after a stage of meaningful improvements (mountain bike frames) and huge media generated attention (the Lance phenomenon). When some company puts out a line of FANTASTIC mountain bike frames at $400 a pop, it's going to change the industry a lot.
    Are you really sure about that?

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by wizzer16 View Post
    I'm not looking to be argumentative at all. Merely discussion based questions. I'm curious what the cost of those advancements has been. It would seem to me that you could take the exact same technology from one electronic to the next.
    No worries, you don't come across as argumentative. There is definitely an old school tone segment of the musician/guitarist world that is attracted to incredibly expensive, old technology ... but more and more of the market is migrating to the much more innovative and inexpensive digital side of the equipment realm. There are old school one dimension vacuum tube amps that cost $3,000+ (some much higher) and there are digital amps that will sound very close to many of the classic amps for $500. Of course the old school snobs will say the tone of the new stuff is not that good. But nearly everyone is recording with the highest quality digital electronics they can afford.
    Are you really sure about that?

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSLKauai View Post
    When some company puts out a line of FANTASTIC mountain bike frames at $400 a pop, it's going to change the industry a lot.
    They sell for that on close out all the time, every year and it hasn't changed the industry one bit. Every year bikes get more expensive because enthusiasts are willing to pay the price, although your example of 7,000 dollar bikes is but a very small segment of the entire market.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSLKauai View Post
    I actually think we're getting very close to the point where weight, components and frame dynamics are nearing a point where improvements will be harder to come by and the real innovation will turn toward competing better via value and pricing. It would not surprise me at all if in the next few years, more companies come out with an absolutely fantastic, light, well built line of bikes that are a lot cheaper. This happens all the time after a stage of meaningful improvements (mountain bike frames) and huge media generated attention (the Lance phenomenon). When some company puts out a line of FANTASTIC mountain bike frames at $400 a pop, it's going to change the industry a lot.

    Exactly! The technology of todays expensive mountain bike will tomorrows base line bike. The people who are buying 7k bikes are paving the way for the 2-4k bike market.

    I do think we have a lot to see from electronic shifting and droppers. Apparently the new XTR DI2 will shift the front to keep the proper chain line and ratio.
    count your blessings

  8. #58
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    Here's where I'm going to throw a wrench into your opening post, and pretty much every other post you have in this thread. It's exactly because innovations are nearly tapped out - especially with road bikes that are relatively simple from a mechanical perspective - that the cost of incremental improvements needed for the bike companies to justify selling new models each year becomes exponentially more expensive (R&D, etc.) to keep churning out fighting against the law of diminishing returns. As consumers we (willingly) pay the cost. Or don't, if that's your choice and you want to make a statement with your wallet.

    Quote Originally Posted by MSLKauai View Post
    I actually think we're getting very close to the point where weight, components and frame dynamics are nearing a point where improvements will be harder to come by and the real innovation will turn toward competing better via value and pricing. It would not surprise me at all if in the next few years, more companies come out with an absolutely fantastic, light, well built line of bikes that are a lot cheaper. This happens all the time after a stage of meaningful improvements (mountain bike frames) and huge media generated attention (the Lance phenomenon). When some company puts out a line of FANTASTIC mountain bike frames at $400 a pop, it's going to change the industry a lot.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by tiretracks View Post
    They sell for that on close out all the time, every year and it hasn't changed the industry one bit. Every year bikes get more expensive because enthusiasts are willing to pay the price, although your example of 7,000 dollar bikes is but a very small segment of the entire market.
    Hmm??? I sure haven't seen that. Are you talking about the frames that are on >$2,000 bikes in bike stores today? Are you saying that brand new Specialized Epic, Instense Tracer, Salsa Horsethief, Scott Genius/Spark, Trek Fuel, Cannondale Trigger, Pivot Mach, Niner Jet, etc. frames are selling somewhere for $400 right now? If so, where? Point me in that direction and I'll by 100 of them today. What was the last really good FS mountain bike frame you saw on sale for $400 brand new?
    Are you really sure about that?

  10. #60
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    Bike prices have steadily gone up because mtn biking popularity has steadily gone up. Actually, in past 5-7 years it's increased significantly, at least where I live. As long is the demand is there......

    I tend to agree with you. But sometimes, pricing of a particular type of product never makes sense. In 1978 I bought a new chainsaw, it costs $300. Brand: Jonsered. 16" bar, 49cc engine. Today, a chainsaw like that is pretty darn close to $300. I think a big part of the explanation there is: demand.

    Have you ever watched any mtn bike auctions on eBay? I think there are roughly 3 times as many mtn bikes on eBay as road bikes. Popularity. The most expensive mass produced bike is Specialized's S-Works Epic. Around $10,500 new I believe. Who would pay that!! .... people say. But go on eBay and sort on mtn bikes> brand:specialized >frame material:carbon. Another used s-works shows up on eBay almost every day!! And they're almost always less then 3 years old. There are a lot of people out there who have no problem pay over 10K for a bicycle. So that's another reason for the high prices.

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSLKauai View Post
    But nearly everyone is recording with the highest quality digital electronics they can afford.
    Hmmmm, pros using top of the line equipment in order to get the best results?

    Quote Originally Posted by MSLKauai View Post
    I actually think we're getting very close to the point where weight, components and frame dynamics are nearing a point where improvements will be harder to come by and the real innovation will turn toward competing better via value and pricing.

    People were saying the exact same thing 30 years ago about road bikes.

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    People were saying the exact same thing 30 years ago.
    Truly, I wasn't paying any attention to the bike market 30 years ago, so you very well might be right. And maybe another superstar like Lance will emerge and bring so much attention to biking that it goes through another big leg up in popularity ... the future's hard to predict. I do think, though that, given the prices today, a couple of bike companies are going to see there's one heck of an opportunity out there to produce really high quality bikes at much lower prices and they're going to enter the equation with good marketing, image branding, etc.
    Are you really sure about that?

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSLKauai View Post
    I bought my first electric guitar in 1980 - a beat up Gibson Les Paul Deluxe -- for $800. In 25 years I have replaced the frets once ($175) and one volume pot ($30). I've played it thousands and thousands of hours and I could sell it today in a heartbeat for $2,500. Good guitars appreciate in value. Bikes depreciate QUICKLY. I've bought and sold a number of guitars over the years and have often made money on them. That's never happened with a bike, at least not to me.
    Sounds like you found a good deal on a guitar but its the same as finding a good deal on a bike. Truth is, you don't have to spend $6000 for a nice bike. You can find a "nice" bike for $1000-$2000. I bought my Gibson Les Paul Studio 10 years ago for about $1200 brand new. I sold it last year for $1000 since it was just a guitar I played at home so it was babied. So I understand the depreciation that bikes have compared to certain things.

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSLKauai View Post
    Truly, I wasn't paying any attention to the bike market 30 years ago, so you very well might be right. And maybe another superstar like Lance will emerge and bring so much attention to biking that it goes through another big leg up in popularity ... the future's hard to predict. I do think, though that, given the prices today, a couple of bike companies are going to see there's one heck of an opportunity out there to produce really high quality bikes at much lower prices and they're going to enter the equation with good marketing, image branding, etc.
    I think Enduro is already doing that for the mtn bike scene.

    There are companies doing that. Airborne for one. If you are in Europe you can get a YT Capra for $4750 USD that is literally a top of the line spec everything Enduro bike with a carbon frame.
    Capra CF Comp 1-20141900

    Soon that will be coming to the states.

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shakester View Post
    Sounds like you found a good deal on a guitar but its the same as finding a good deal on a bike. Truth is, you don't have to spend $6000 for a nice bike. You can find a "nice" bike for $1000-$2000. I bought my Gibson Les Paul Studio 10 years ago for about $1200 brand new. I sold it last year for $1000 since it was just a guitar I played at home so it was babied. So I understand the depreciation that bikes have compared to certain things.
    I did get lucky with that Les Paul and have lost money on other guitars and made money on others. The most I ever spent for a bike was $3000 and that was a used carbon FS bike, from a Team racer for Kona on a bike that was selling new for about $7000. My other bikes are all in that $1,500-2,500 zone and I always look for lightly used bikes. I really can't see myself ever buying another road bike unless the frame on my current one breaks, which I seriously doubt will happen anytime soon. Mountain bikes are a little different. If you ride em hard in real dirt, they wear out a lot faster.
    Are you really sure about that?

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSLKauai View Post
    Truly, I wasn't paying any attention to the bike market 30 years ago, so you very well might be right. And maybe another superstar like Lance will emerge and bring so much attention to biking that it goes through another big leg up in popularity ... the future's hard to predict. I do think, though that, given the prices today, a couple of bike companies are going to see there's one heck of an opportunity out there to produce really high quality bikes at much lower prices and they're going to enter the equation with good marketing, image branding, etc.

    For me, it was Bernard Hinault that made biking popular for me. Hinault and Lemond.

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSLKauai View Post
    I bought my first electric guitar in 1980 - a beat up Gibson Les Paul Deluxe -- for $800. In 25 years I have replaced the frets once ($175) and one volume pot ($30). I've played it thousands and thousands of hours and I could sell it today in a heartbeat for $2,500.
    I bought my first mountain bike in 1986 - a year old Specialized Stumpjumper -- for $150. I estimate $50 per year in chains and tires for the 5-6 years I rode it. If I had that bike today it would be worth over $2,500 (vintage bikes are something of a collector's item today).

    As far as advances in technology, there are too many to list. The '86 SJ had caliper brakes mounted under incredibly long chainstays. It had a threaded headset which needed adjusting almost every ride. Cup and ball bearings that needed much more attention than today's cartridge bearings, just to name a few.

    In 2007 I built up a Surly Karate Monkey for right around $1000. Still ride that thing today. This past winter I bought a Surly Krampus for $2,500 including tax. That one was a little over-priced, maybe, but I do respect the level of design/engineering that goes into their fat bikes (just don't call the Krampus "fat").

    All that being said, I do see the point in your original post. Bikes are expensive. Some are over-priced, but I personally don't think it's as far out of line with other sports as you say. I live in a ski town and a full set up of "high-end" ski equipment on the market today would probably be around $2,000 (skis, boots and poles); and then it would still cost $100 per day just to ride the lifts.

  18. #68
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    Re: Why are nice bikes so frigging expensive?

    Quote Originally Posted by MSLKauai View Post
    I actually think we're getting very close to the point where weight, components and frame dynamics are nearing a point where improvements will be harder to come by and the real innovation will turn toward competing better via value and pricing. It would not surprise me at all if in the next few years, more companies come out with an absolutely fantastic, light, well built line of bikes that are a lot cheaper. This happens all the time after a stage of meaningful improvements (mountain bike frames) and huge media generated attention (the Lance phenomenon). When some company puts out a line of FANTASTIC mountain bike frames at $400 a pop, it's going to change the industry a lot.
    Check out YT Industries. Great value for what you get. Cutting a middle man and buying direct is another way how to offer lower pricing.
    Www.yt-industries.com

  19. #69
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    I think a lot of the top dollar costs and even lower end model prices are due to shops charging MSRP for everything on the bike..I will grant some are focused mostly on a name the frame has on it despite most all of them are made in the same factory at the same costs...Bikes direct sells a Dawes haymaker 1500 with deore components for $500.00.

    So what do you get from a local bike shop for $500.00?

    You get the bottom of the line shimano tourney derailleurs and shifters...you get tektro mechanical disc brakes..you also get the same Suntour XCT cranks or shimano altus cranks..you get bottom of the line parts for a premium price.

    Im sure many feel the name on the frame means the world but in all honesty it means crap..if bike shops would stop being so greedy they may sell a larger percentage of the market..They could only dream to have the contracts walmart and target has when it comes to moving volumes.

    I own 3 bikes from all ends of the spectrum...A walmart bike, a mail order bike and a soon to be "local bike shop quality" GT Avalanche frame that I paid $140 dollars for shipped brand new..If I put the same low level parts on it ill be far from the 550 dollars a local bike shop sells one for..but ill be able to put on much better parts for my 550 dollars.

    I agree high end bikes are a small percentage but in some cases it doesn't always mean you got a great deal or cant do better for less money in general.

    I paid $349 dollars for a mail order bike with Hydraulic brakes..a very well built quality frame with sram X4 everything shifting wise and get the same XCT cranks and forks the bike shop models get...There can be good deals but bike shops as with any business want to make as much as they can for something they paid a lot less for.

    Its the walmart bikes that get more and more people into riding bikes..not the local bike shops..Despite the belief a walmart bike will fall apart as soon as it hits a trail or goes off a small jump it us just simply not true anymore..technology has trickeld down quite a bit with some models

    You can get 1-1/8 head tubes now, double wall rims, 3pc. cranks, front and rear disc brakes..the same shimano tourney derailleurs you get on a 500 dollar bike shop model.Alloy pedals on some models, some great full suspension geometry on some models...I predict in 5 yrs sales on walmart bike will double as they improve while bike shops struggle more and more as they charge more and more for a bike


    if you feel its the frame that makes a difference I can agree but only to a certain point

    What entry level 500 600 dollar bike is made for 5 ft drop offs or 10ft dirt jumps?..None of them are as walmart bikes aren't either...they are intended for light duty trail use but more so with some upgrades..Sorry but none of the walmart bikes ive owned have ever broken a frame from riding trails and having fun with it..Would I try to take 5ft drops on one..no I wouldn't but I wouldn't on a 600 dollar bike either.

    So cost will always be high as long as bike shops continue to charge as much as they are legally allowed to.

    Super high end bikes I leave out of this because none really start off riding on a 5k 6k bike..they buy the cheap 200 dollar walmart bike or the lowest cost LBS bike.

    Some models I can see cost justified as your life can depend on whether or not you have the best technology out there..but for the entry aspect the bike shops are losing the war to walmart and target and sears and all the department store bikes.

    You would be amazed at what some are doing to some of those cheap models and beating the crap out of them but sorry ,no stories of broken frames or stories of near death experiences because it was a cheap bike..Some of the frames are solid as a rock and light trail riding is no more of a risk than it would be on a more expensive model.

    Anyway, just my feelings on all of this..I like all my bikes depite the cost..none have fallen apart and they all do the same thing for me,Give me exercise and fun.

    Im not saying go out and buy a walmart bike if you have the money for something nicer but, if all you can afford is a walmart bike don't let it scare you away thinking its total crap..A few upgrades and your as reliable as anything else costing hundreds more.
    2014 Motobecane 550HT
    2013 Mongoose XR200

  20. #70
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    Why are nice bikes so frigging expensive?

    Quote Originally Posted by MSLKauai View Post
    Never ceases to amaze me how often on internet DISCUSSION BOARDS, people will chime in negatively, commenting that the thread isn't necessary and then criticize the guy opening the thread? If you have no interest or have already participated in a previous topic like this, why not ignore it? How does tossing negativity and insults into the arena help anything? I've personally never participated in a discussion on this site about this. Maybe you spend hours and hours every day on the site, pouring over every thread and tracking frequency of topics ... chill out a little. Why waste your time on a topic you're not interested in? And, what exactly am I "whining" about? I'm simply putting out a comparative question of value. It seems odd to me that a relatively simple machine like a bicycle should cost as much as a snowmobile that has thousands of parts with far more engineering and durability built in than a bicycle.
    Yeah!

  21. #71
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    Re: Why are nice bikes so frigging expensive?

    Quote Originally Posted by MSLKauai View Post
    A carbon frame is what ... 1-2 lbs lighter than a good aluminum frame? Big whoop ti do.
    Ti? Why did you bring that up now?

  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzanova View Post
    Check out YT Industries. Great value for what you get. Cutting a middle man and buying direct is another way how to offer lower pricing.
    YT Industries ? Home
    Thanks for the link ... checked them out ... looked nice, but definitely not inexpensive bikes.
    Are you really sure about that?

  23. #73
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    Re: Why are nice bikes so frigging expensive?

    Quote Originally Posted by MSLKauai View Post
    Thanks for the link ... checked them out ... looked nice, but definitely not inexpensive bikes.
    You ate right, they are not inexpensive, but an equivalent bike from any other high end manufacturer with the same group of components would be about 30-50% more expensive.

  24. #74
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    Re: Why are nice bikes so frigging expensive?

    Why are you whining anyways? If you dont like spending the money go spend it elsewhere.

    Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk 2

  25. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSLKauai View Post
    It just doesn't seem, when you stand a bicycle next to these other things, that it should cost anywhere near this. Granted, you can get a pretty nice bike for let's say $3,500 but still, it seems like a great bike should be possible for <$1,000 given how little raw materials go into it. Seriously, is a full suspension frame really THAT complicated compared to these other products? And it's not like bikes are even that durable. Forks and shocks need servicing every couple of months if you ride regularly!
    Aloha,

    The problem(s) as I see it would go something like this. Mountain biking (and cycling) has gone high end/popular. It's a sport (activity) that almost all the big companies have to do some serious marketing to keep up with the other companies. Add to that the fact that all the big companies seem to think we need something new every year (more marketing). Kind of like the drug companies (and other areas like golf clubs), the manufacturers need to recoup their "research" and "advertising" costs as fast as possible so because they're needing to develop new and "better" stuff every year and want to make you think you need it.

    One more ingredient to the mixture. Someone/something's got to pay for all that media stuff like X-Games and Red Bull. They are spectacular for sure but though those companies put out the money, we as consumers pay for it whether it be with Red Bull or any of the companies that are part of the traveling show.

    This is the same reason why NBA, NFL and other products associated to those media things cost so much money. Why do basketball shoes cost so much money, especially if they had that "Jordan" name on it????

    OK, last part. Our economy has tanked (here in the US) so our great US dollar sucks against many places like China and Japan where all the parts/pieces and bulk of manufacturing comes from. Then here in the states our cost of doing business has gone up HUGE amounts..............

    Anyway, my take on what I see..............

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