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  1. #251
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    Quote Originally Posted by turbodog View Post
    Yes, you fail to understand. The articles fully explain the history of mountain bike suppy chain (in AU). SOME bikes are $10k *partly* because of a longer, tightly controlled supply chain! Think of Specialized, with their tightly controlled dealer network - they have an image and you pay a premium for it.
    T - The articles you posted actually oppose your reluctantly offered opinions and support the view that as prices climb to the highest levels on bikes, performance gains drop off as status/psychological benefits take over.
    Are you really sure about that?

  2. #252
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSLKauai View Post
    Orrrr ... why would anyone engage on an internet DISCUSSION FORUM simply to criticize the forum and conversation? The whole point of a discussion forum is to exchange ideas, discuss, etc. That's kind of a human motivation. Why, if you're not interested in the discussion, not ignore it and dig into a thread that does interest you? What possible benefit do you get in criticizing the interactions of others on a discussion board? Does it make you feel better to throw grenades from the sidelines at others?
    My questions were relevant, and my commentary was my opinion on your thread, since I read most of it. You can just ignore them.... it's working for you so far.

  3. #253
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    Quote Originally Posted by d365 View Post
    My questions were relevant, and my commentary was my opinion on your thread, since I read most of it. You can just ignore them.... it's working for you so far.
    Clever and witty! Kudos.
    Are you really sure about that?

  4. #254
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSLKauai View Post
    T - The articles you posted actually oppose your reluctantly offered opinions and support the view that as prices climb to the highest levels on bikes, performance gains drop off as status/psychological benefits take over.
    Clearly your reading comprehension skills are lacking. EVERYONE who's EVER bought a bike (or bought ANYTHING!) knows that as you spend more money, the improvements become more incremental. Nobody is debating this point, it is how the world works.

    The three driving factors in bicycle cost are supply chain/retail, manufacturing/materials, and engineering/design. CLEARLY, OBVIOUSLY, as you spend more money, each of these factors absorbs more money, while producing only incremental gains.
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  5. #255
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    Quote Originally Posted by turbodog View Post
    Clearly your reading comprehension skills are lacking. EVERYONE who's EVER bought a bike (or bought ANYTHING!) knows that as you spend more money, the improvements become more incremental. Nobody is debating this point, it is how the world works.

    The three driving factors in bicycle cost are supply chain/retail, manufacturing/materials, and engineering/design. CLEARLY, OBVIOUSLY, as you spend more money, each of these factors absorbs more money, while producing only incremental gains.
    Not even close to true. Many products, as you spend more money exhibit exponential improvements ... Real Estate, Cars ... consider the difference between a $30,000 Mercedes and a $120,000 Mercedes. How about airplanes? Furniture? Vast differences. Same is true with a boat. How about restaurants? Bikes, however, after you get to the good quality mid-priced versions (let's say $3,000ish) get very close to the top of the performance curve. It's kinda unique, actually.

    I think you're just making stuff up, frankly.

    And, the articles you posted showed clearly that marketing and sales expense is what drives the cost of the highest end bikes.

    Anyway, enough of this thread for me ... Was fun.
    Are you really sure about that?

  6. #256
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSLKauai View Post
    Having ridden thousands and thousands of XC miles on different hardtails and FS XC bikes (again, I'm not a racer) the bike, compared to technique and conditioning seems to play a minor role if you're on a good fast bike.
    Good fast bikes are expensive.




    Quote Originally Posted by MSLKauai View Post
    Not even close to true. Many products, as you spend more money exhibit exponential improvements ... Real Estate, Cars ... consider the difference between a $30,000 Mercedes and a $120,000 Mercedes. How about airplanes? Furniture? Vast differences. Same is true with a boat. How about restaurants? Bikes, however, after you get to the good quality mid-priced versions (let's say $3,000ish) get very close to the top of the performance curve. It's kinda unique, actually.
    There's really no difference. Just because you can't buy, appreciate and ride an expensive bike to or past it's design limit, doesn't mean that other people can't. In most sports, hobbies or whatever, the better you are at it the more expensive equipment you need. Most novices probably wouldn't ride any better on a bike that costs more then $3000. Every pro is going to ride much better, faster and safer on a $10,000 bike.
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  7. #257
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSLKauai View Post
    Not even close to true. Many products, as you spend more money exhibit exponential improvements ... Real Estate, Cars ... consider the difference between a $30,000 Mercedes and a $120,000 Mercedes. How about airplanes? Furniture? Vast differences. Same is true with a boat. How about restaurants? Bikes, however, after you get to the good quality mid-priced versions (let's say $3,000ish) get very close to the top of the performance curve. It's kinda unique, actually.
    If we define the function of a car as getting from A->B safely and reliably, then any gee-whiz features beyond that are very poor value. Where's the value in a high end restaurant if the primary purpose of food is to provide nutrition? Probably less healthy than any number of meals I can buy or make for $10 or less. It's all conspicuous consumption with little or no marginal benefit above and beyond the core function or intent, no different than expensive bikes.

  8. #258
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSLKauai View Post
    Not even close to true. Many products, as you spend more money exhibit exponential improvements ... Real Estate, Cars ... consider the difference between a $30,000 Mercedes and a $120,000 Mercedes. How about airplanes? Furniture? Vast differences. Same is true with a boat. How about restaurants? Bikes, however, after you get to the good quality mid-priced versions (let's say $3,000ish) get very close to the top of the performance curve. It's kinda unique, actually.

    I think you're just making stuff up, frankly.

    And, the articles you posted showed clearly that marketing and sales expense is what drives the cost of the highest end bikes.

    Anyway, enough of this thread for me ... Was fun.
    Clearly you are out of touch with the world, and out of your mind.

    First of all, please tell me all of the modern cars that weigh 2000lb, from your example.



    Oh, how did that go for you?

    Secondly, any *car person* would say that there's a "big" difference between a Mercedes CLA250 ($30K, base) and an CLS63 AMG ($120K+, optioned). More power, more luxury. Yep. Great. At 4 times the cost.

    To the average *lay person*? They look the same. They are luxurious. Both are pretty quick. Obviously the CLS63 is much better, but is it $90k better?

    How about comparing the CLS250 to a $17K Toyota Corolla? You get much more bang for your buck. For $13k more, you get much more power, a luxury nameplate, much better interior.

    Spending that extra $90k is starting to look pretty silly, isn't it?

    The articles I posted CLEARLY identified that marketing and supply chain costs contribute to the costs of bikes, and in SOME SPECIFIC cases can be disproportionately higher, for reasons that were CLEARLY explained. NO, THEY ARE NOT THE SOLE DRIVER OF HIGH END BIKE COST, ONLY A FOOL WOULD COME TO THAT CONCLUSION.

    Feel free to take your ball and go home if you feel like you're outmatched here. Bye!
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  9. #259
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    Quote Originally Posted by d365 View Post
    what a bunch of talking in circles......

    why does anything cost what it does? why does anything have value?

    why do people care about saving grams on components, or new technology that provides minimal improvements? better does not equal better?

    How are these companies still in business?
    Question no 1 is the only question that counts, but if you break it down into 2 questions, what does it cost ( as in cost to produce) and what price does it sell at ( street retail), then you have the crux of the question.

    Nearly all of the points on this thread reply to the first part of cost to produce and market. Really it's all about the second part, which is what will the market pay for this product.

    The price is set by what the market will bare. If people expect that the top level bikes will be $10k, then sellers will endeavour to meet the markets expectation ( or slightly below)

    The component manufacturers respond in kind with their perceived value as well.

  10. #260
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    Quote Originally Posted by turbodog View Post

    Secondly, any *car person* would say that there's a "big" difference between a Mercedes CLA250 ($30K, base) and an CLS63 AMG ($120K+, optioned). More power, more luxury. Yep. Great. At 4 times the cost.

    To the average *lay person*? They look the same. They are luxurious. Both are pretty quick. Obviously the CLS63 is much better, but is it $90k better?
    Lol, you are so on the money. Such a silly example. The very idea that a c63 is reasonably worth 4 cl250s is stupendous . Further there is no way on earth it costs Mercedes 4 times as much to make, nor does the customer get 4 times the value.

    But if you want an incredible car, the c63 is one of them - but it wouldn't be so incredible if everyone had one, would it?

  11. #261
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSLKauai View Post
    I think what he was saying is that beyond a certain price point, the performance gains are minimal and what the customer is actually buying is status.
    And he/you are right but the thing is, that applies to most non-mass consumed products ( with exceptions ). Ever got yourself into high fidelity audio ? High end gaming components ? You get HUGE price differences for minimal return.
    My Sennheiser headphones cost me 150EUR but my other pair, some Beyerdynamics, cost me 3x that value but the diference is far from 3x in audio quality and they're not even, by far, the most expensive pair of headphones on the market. Don't get me started on audio amplifiers ... most people wouldn't notice a difference between my $300 Little Dot mkIII and a, say, $2000 Woo Audio WA22 and yet they have a huge gap in pricing.

    I could go on with many other examples from different types of products but the point would still be the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by MSLKauai View Post
    To me, it comes down to sheer marvel at the bike industry for the marketing and image/brand work they have done to convince so many to spend those kinds of dollars on ultra high end bikes and parts that carry with them minimal, if any, performance advantages over alternatives half their cost. In the auto industry, for example, there's a huge difference in features and capabilities between a $25,000 car and a $50,000 car. A $4,000 road bike compared to an $8,000 road bike is very, very close in terms of performance characteristics and even appearance.
    Are you sure ? I could give you 3 different cars from 3 different companies, with very different prices and yet they would be pretty much the same under the bonnet ( Seat Leon, VW Golf and Audi A3 for example ), sure they would have differences in trim, quality control and the quality of some materials but nothing that would justify the price difference between the 3, the real difference would be in the time they spent on the assembly line ( less time spent = lower cost ) and of course, branding.

    It all comes down on perception of value, if the general buyer perceives something as "highly desirable" it will be marked up accordingly and vice versa, regardless of actual real value.
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