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  1. #401
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    Quote Originally Posted by RickBullottaPA View Post
    What he said!

    Let's deal with the situation at hand, not outlier hypotheticals. Far more likely someone will take an electric dirt bike on the trails than a 46MPH eBike.

    Multi-use trail usage should be restricted to Class 1 eBikes. Problem solved. Next topic please.
    Please, tell me how you solved the problem?

    How are you ensuring that class 1 ebikes are the only ebikes riding the trails?

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  2. #402
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  3. #403
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    Quote Originally Posted by RickBullottaPA View Post
    How do you ensure that motorcycles don't ride the trails? That homicidal circus clowns don't walk the trails? That water bottles don't contain expired milk?
    If they start making motorcycles and homicidal circus clowns that look 100% identical to class 1 electric bikes then that might become a problem. You're on your own with the curdled milk, water only for me.
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  4. #404
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silentfoe View Post
    Please, tell me how you solved the problem?

    How are you ensuring that class 1 ebikes are the only ebikes riding the trails?

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    The same way we currently ensure that MTBs do not ride on hiking only trails and other places where all bikes are banned. 99.99% of MTBers are law abiding citizens who don't poach, and violators are shunned just like illegal trail builders are.

    What's wrong with applying the system that is already sucessful and in effect now? The MTB community rigorously self-polices today to the point that there is apparently very little tension between the courteous and respectful mountain bikers and other trail users, at least that what I read here. So why not just stick with what is working and accept Class 1's on the same basis?

  5. #405
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    Mountain bikers are actually pretty notorious for NOT self policing.

    Even on this forum alone, their are many anecdotes of ebikers poaching trails and not being told to leave.

    As long as a 3000 watt ebike looks like a class 1 ebike and no one can tell the difference, they will all be banned.

    As long as ebikers continue to think they are part of the mountain bike demographic and expect us to do the heavy lifting, we will fight them.

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  6. #406
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  7. #407
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  8. #408
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    Quote Originally Posted by RickBullottaPA View Post
    And while you have me fired up, one more thing. What the f*ck do you mean by "part of the mountain bike demographic"? What an a*hole thing to even say. The very core of the MTB tribe and community is one of inclusion, non-conformity, and generally whatever-the-f*ck-ed-ness. That elitist hipster/roadie mindset has no place in MTBing, but sadly it has infected the culture. Now what you wear, what you ride, what you drink, and how you ride matters more than the ride itself. That's horrible. The douche factor has been steadily rising. I'll welcome those e-Bikers if they are good people and gladly kick the arrogant elitist a-holes out of the tribe to make room for 'em.
    Oddly, I've found MTB riders to be just as judgemental as road riders, if not more.

    Example: I wear Lycra most of the time. I'm a (shitty) pro XC racer and it's what I'm comfortable wearing. I'll regularly catch up to people at the top, give them a good gap, and catch them going down, on my 120/100mm bike. I've had many interactions along the lines of, "Whoa, didn't expect to see you again" or "I'm surprised you can ride these trails". Based entirely upon my apparel or bike.

    There's quite a bit of tribalism in MTB. Many "trail" riders who claim they don't ride "XC", except all they ride is really XC. They just do it with 140mm bikes, knee pads, and 20lbs of crap on their backs.



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  9. #409
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    Quote Originally Posted by RickBullottaPA View Post
    And while you have me fired up, one more thing. What the f*ck do you mean by "part of the mountain bike demographic"? What an a*hole thing to even say. The very core of the MTB tribe and community is one of inclusion, non-conformity, and generally whatever-the-f*ck-ed-ness. That elitist hipster/roadie mindset has no place in MTBing, but sadly it has infected the culture. Now what you wear, what you ride, what you drink, and how you ride matters more than the ride itself. That's horrible. The douche factor has been steadily rising. I'll welcome those e-Bikers if they are good people and gladly kick the arrogant elitist a-holes out of the tribe to make room for 'em.

    Why so angry? I can understand Silentfoe's point of view and I agree with much of it, I happen to disagree with you but that in itself doesn't make you an arrogant "whatever-the-f*ck-ed-ness" a-hole.
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  10. #410
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    Quote Originally Posted by RickBullottaPA View Post
    Sad. Very sad. We should be on the same side.
    I tend to agree, but let's be honest - what do e-bike riders bring to the table? What risks do they bring? It's not necessarily "hating" to think that the potential costs outweigh the (probably limited) benefits for mountain bikers.

    I mean, if e-bikes are widely popular on mountain bike trails in 20 years, how is that a good thing for me? My trails are often crowded as it is, so I have zero interest in attracting more riders or "growing the sport". I don't want more powerful or faster vehicles on the trails (I like to hike with my kids, too) or trails closed to bikes because e-bikes are indistinguishable from normal ones.

    It is possible that someday I won't be physically able to ride without an assist, but I'm guessing that at that point I won't be mountain biking at all anymore just due to general frailty. I've been getting slower for the last decade or more and I still have a load of fun, so I don't see the appeal of "feeling like a kid again" if there's even the slightest potential for losing trail access.

    The bottom line for me, and for many mountain bikers, is that *the trails are more important than the bikes*. I'd give up most modern bike tech (suspension, fancy brakes, tubeless tires, etc etc) in a hot second to keep access to the trails I love. More speed and more technology is neat, but it's not worth losing what really matters.

    This is why I don't want mountain bikes and e-bikes conflated with each other. They need to stay separate things, gain (or lose) access separately, and both groups need to recognize that the trails are what matter the most. All else is secondary.

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  11. #411
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silentfoe View Post
    Mountain bikers are actually pretty notorious for NOT self policing.

    Even on this forum alone, their are many anecdotes of ebikers poaching trails and not being told to leave.

    As long as a 3000 watt ebike looks like a class 1 ebike and no one can tell the difference, they will all be banned.

    As long as ebikers continue to think they are part of the mountain bike demographic and expect us to do the heavy lifting, we will fight them.

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    Since most eMTBers seem to be either women or older men, perhaps they will be more responsible and will make things better and not worse. From what you suggest, " the MTB community" seem to live in a big glass house, and yet they seem to delight in throwing rocks at others........

    Why would one expect new eMTB riders to be as irresponsible as you say the current MTB riders are? They appear to be a completely different demographic.

  12. #412
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    I tend to agree, but let's be honest - what do e-bike riders bring to the table? What risks do they bring? It's not necessarily "hating" to think that the potential costs outweigh the (probably limited) benefits for mountain bikers.

    I mean, if e-bikes are widely popular on mountain bike trails in 20 years, how is that a good thing for me? My trails are often crowded as it is, so I have zero interest in attracting more riders or "growing the sport". I don't want more powerful or faster vehicles on the trails (I like to hike with my kids, too) or trails closed to bikes because e-bikes are indistinguishable from normal ones.

    It is possible that someday I won't be physically able to ride without an assist, but I'm guessing that at that point I won't be mountain biking at all anymore just due to general frailty. I've been getting slower for the last decade or more and I still have a load of fun, so I don't see the appeal of "feeling like a kid again" if there's even the slightest potential for losing trail access.

    The bottom line for me, and for many mountain bikers, is that *the trails are more important than the bikes*. I'd give up most modern bike tech (suspension, fancy brakes, tubeless tires, etc etc) in a hot second to keep access to the trails I love. More speed and more technology is neat, but it's not worth losing what really matters.

    This is why I don't want mountain bikes and e-bikes conflated with each other. They need to stay separate things, gain (or lose) access separately, and both groups need to recognize that the trails are what matter the most. All else is secondary.

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  13. #413
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    I tend to agree, but let's be honest - what do e-bike riders bring to the table? What risks do they bring? It's not necessarily "hating" to think that the potential costs outweigh the (probably limited) benefits for mountain bikers.

    I mean, if e-bikes are widely popular on mountain bike trails in 20 years, how is that a good thing for me? My trails are often crowded as it is, so I have zero interest in attracting more riders or "growing the sport". I don't want more powerful or faster vehicles on the trails (I like to hike with my kids, too) or trails closed to bikes because e-bikes are indistinguishable from normal ones.

    It is possible that someday I won't be physically able to ride without an assist, but I'm guessing that at that point I won't be mountain biking at all anymore just due to general frailty. I've been getting slower for the last decade or more and I still have a load of fun, so I don't see the appeal of "feeling like a kid again" if there's even the slightest potential for losing trail access.

    The bottom line for me, and for many mountain bikers, is that *the trails are more important than the bikes*. I'd give up most modern bike tech (suspension, fancy brakes, tubeless tires, etc etc) in a hot second to keep access to the trails I love. More speed and more technology is neat, but it's not worth losing what really matters.

    This is why I don't want mountain bikes and e-bikes conflated with each other. They need to stay separate things, gain (or lose) access separately, and both groups need to recognize that the trails are what matter the most. All else is secondary.

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  14. #414
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    Quote Originally Posted by WoodlandHills View Post
    Since most eMTBers seem to be either women or older men, perhaps they will be more responsible and will make things better and not worse.
    Source? In my personal experience the 3 eBiker's I have seen in my local riding area were all men under the age of 55.
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  15. #415
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    Quote Originally Posted by RickBullottaPA View Post
    Therein lies the problem. It isn't "us" and "them". We're the same people. I do trail work, I ride a "regular" mountain bike (a couple of them actually), I fight for trail access, I support youth mountain biking, I also happen to own and ride an e-Bike.

    Oddly enough, your position sounds EXACTLY like the position of the equestrians and hikers that we seem to battle every day.

    Your position is based on the same sort of fear, supposition, and hypotheticals that have negatively affected MTB access, construction of rails-to-trails networks, and so many other amazing things that finally succeeded when the naysayers were proven so very wrong.

    Sad. Very sad. We should be on the same side.
    Disagree, there is motorized and non motorized. Not we. Clear line in the sand, so to speak.

  16. #416
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    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    Disagree, there is motorized and non motorized. Not we. Clear line in the sand, so to speak.
    I agree.
    Even though I mainly mountain bike, I also do lots of other things that aren't mountain biking.
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  17. #417
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Oddly, I've found MTB riders to be just as judgemental as road riders, if not more.

    Example: I wear Lycra most of the time. I'm a (shitty) pro XC racer and it's what I'm comfortable wearing. I'll regularly catch up to people at the top, give them a good gap, and catch them going down, on my 120/100mm bike. I've had many interactions along the lines of, "Whoa, didn't expect to see you again" or "I'm surprised you can ride these trails". Based entirely upon my apparel or bike.

    There's quite a bit of tribalism in MTB. Many "trail" riders who claim they don't ride "XC", except all they ride is really XC. They just do it with 140mm bikes, knee pads, and 20lbs of crap on their backs.



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  18. #418
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    Remember, itís not the few posters on this ebike sub forum that started this movement. Itís these guys. Scream at them and tell them to separate and also hold them accountable. I enjoy both sports regardless.

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  19. #419
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    Remember, itís not the few posters on this ebike sub forum that started this movement. Itís these guys. Scream at them and tell them to separate and also hold them accountable.
    People give 'The Industry' way too much cred IMHO.
    Nobody I've ever met in the MTB access/trailbuilding game gives a goddamn what they think. Pretty much nobody that rides does either. Make a bike, if it's good maybe I'll buy it, back it up when it breaks, otherwise who cares what they want, or think? Nobody makes access decisions based on what 'The Industry' wishes to sell.
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  20. #420
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    People give 'The Industry' way too much cred IMHO.
    Nobody I've ever met in the MTB access/trailbuilding game gives a goddamn what they think. Pretty much nobody that rides does either. Make a bike, if it's good maybe I'll buy it, back it up when it breaks, otherwise who cares what they want, or think? Nobody makes access decisions based on what 'The Industry' wishes to sell.
    Although this is true, without these manufacturers there wouldnít be emtbs. They should all donate and build ebike parks or designated ebike trails.

  21. #421
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    Although this is true, without these manufacturers there wouldnít be emtbs. They should all donate and build ebike parks or designated ebike trails.
    Good luck with that!
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  22. #422
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    Although this is true, without these manufacturers there wouldnít be emtbs. They should all donate and build ebike parks or designated ebike trails.
    They should have done that 5 years ago, really. Or else held off on selling the e-mtbs until they had laid some form of access groundwork.

    As SHMF says, the bike industry overall is really not very influential (nor do they spend any significant money) on access/trailbuilding. Locals, local clubs, and local mountain bikers who work in land management agencies are by far the biggest determiners of what gets built and who gets to use it. Hell, local shops and businesses have a much bigger influence than any of the manufacturers.

    Part of that is probably just that the US is a big place, and bike companies run on razor thin margins and (in general, though there are a couple of exceptions) are barely profitable. Add to that the fact that 90% of the bike market is road bikes and commuters, and it's hard to make the case that it makes business sense to spend a lot of money on trailbuilding.

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  23. #423
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    Yes, in a perfect world I know.. My buddy owns a Specialized shop and he claims road bike sales are way down. People getting hit everywhere. Youíre correct though, the infrastructure should have been laid out. My biggest fear is poaching, there will be more emtbs sold and thereís gonna be poaching. I personally do not poach because I respect land owners and rules.

  24. #424
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    Part of that is probably just that the US is a big place, and bike companies run on razor thin margins and (in general, though there are a couple of exceptions) are barely profitable. Add to that the fact that 90% of the bike market is road bikes and commuters, and it's hard to make the case that it makes business sense to spend a lot of money on trailbuilding.
    Margins are there, they're just split up among many companies. Can't expect Specialized, for instance, to carry the weight while Brose and SRAM sit back and happily sell drive systems and components at normal margins.

    If the manufacturers were to team up and assemble a set number of e-MTBs using surplus/scratch-'n-dent frames and components from "last year", and donate these bikes to land managers for trailbuilding and ranger use, I think it would go a long way in spreading awareness to the right people on what exactly Class 1 e-MTB is about.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    Source? In my personal experience the 3 eBiker's I have seen in my local riding area were all men under the age of 55.
    Same as you, my personal experience on bike paths and trails as well as what people report here. I have never seen an eMTb ridden by anyone in their 20's or 30's, so far. I have seen ebikes on the street ridden by people under 55, but still that was less than 25% IMHO. I know I have never seen an ebike, of any kind, ridden by a child or a teen. I am sure that location has a lot to do with it though: we have an RV and I've seen lots of ebikes ridden by my peers (I am 64) in RV parks and nearby bike paths when we travel. I also lived until very recently just outside of the Santa Monica Mtns and rode the trails there all the time, now I live on the Central Coast and ride the beaches and trails here, so I've seen a few ebikes.

  26. #426
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    The reality is that horses, and mtbs arenít allowed everywhere and so will emtbs. But Iíd bet my bottom dollar there will be access to class 1 emtbs on ďsomeĒ MUT trails in the future. To think otherwise is foolish, and if there is major conflict they will ban them.

  27. #427
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    I tend to agree, but let's be honest - what do e-bike riders bring to the table? What risks do they bring? It's not necessarily "hating" to think that the potential costs outweigh the (probably limited) benefits for mountain bikers.

    I mean, if e-bikes are widely popular on mountain bike trails in 20 years, how is that a good thing for me? My trails are often crowded as it is, so I have zero interest in attracting more riders or "growing the sport". I don't want more powerful or faster vehicles on the trails (I like to hike with my kids, too) or trails closed to bikes because e-bikes are indistinguishable from normal ones.

    It is possible that someday I won't be physically able to ride without an assist, but I'm guessing that at that point I won't be mountain biking at all anymore just due to general frailty. I've been getting slower for the last decade or more and I still have a load of fun, so I don't see the appeal of "feeling like a kid again" if there's even the slightest potential for losing trail access.

    The bottom line for me, and for many mountain bikers, is that *the trails are more important than the bikes*. I'd give up most modern bike tech (suspension, fancy brakes, tubeless tires, etc etc) in a hot second to keep access to the trails I love. More speed and more technology is neat, but it's not worth losing what really matters.

    This is why I don't want mountain bikes and e-bikes conflated with each other. They need to stay separate things, gain (or lose) access separately, and both groups need to recognize that the trails are what matter the most. All else is secondary.

    -Walt
    I tend to agree, but let's be honest - what do MTB riders bring to the table? What risks do they bring? It's not necessarily "hating" to think that the potential costs outweigh the (probably limited) benefits for hikers.

    I mean, if MTBs are widely popular on hiking trails in 20 years, how is that a good thing for me? My trails are often crowded as it is, so I have zero interest in attracting MTBs. I don't want MTBs on the trails (I like to hike with my kids, too) or trails closed to hikers because MTBs take over.

    It is possible that someday I won't be physically able to hike without an assist, but I'm guessing that at that point I won't be hiking at all anymore just due to general frailty. I've been getting slower for the last decade or more and I still have a load of fun, so I don't see the appeal of "feeling like a kid again".

    The bottom line for me, and for many hikers, is that *the trails are more important than the bikes*. More speed and more technology is neat, but it's not worth losing what really matters.

    This is why I don't want hikers and MTBs on trails with each other. They need to stay separate things, gain (or lose) access separately, and both groups need to recognize that the trails are what matter the most. All else is secondary.

  28. #428
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    They should have done that 5 years ago, really. Or else held off on selling the e-mtbs until they had laid some form of access groundwork.

    As SHMF says, the bike industry overall is really not very influential (nor do they spend any significant money) on access/trailbuilding. Locals, local clubs, and local mountain bikers who work in land management agencies are by far the biggest determiners of what gets built and who gets to use it. Hell, local shops and businesses have a much bigger influence than any of the manufacturers.

    Part of that is probably just that the US is a big place, and bike companies run on razor thin margins and (in general, though there are a couple of exceptions) are barely profitable. Add to that the fact that 90% of the bike market is road bikes and commuters, and it's hard to make the case that it makes business sense to spend a lot of money on trailbuilding.

    -Walt
    IME, at least here, where we actually have a semi substantial local bike industry (SRAM/Rockshox, Rotor, Borealis, SRM) the "industry" has zero impact on what gets built, where, and who gets to use it. It's all local groups and locals, and then the land managers who make the final decisions. Local shops effectively do nothing. Here, I know they can be a driving force elsewhere.

    Most of the industry money gets spent on politics or maybe specific grants. A Bell built grant for example. Peopleforbikes spent $4 million last year of industry money and most people have never heard of them.

    http://2016.peopleforbikes.org/2016-pfb-financials.pdf

    I agree that they put the cart before the horse in trying to sell ebikes before there was any consensus and uniformity on access. It's just greed, the US companies were trying to catch the EU market, where they were the latecomers and they started selling them here too.

  29. #429
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    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    I tend to agree, but let's be honest - what do MTB riders bring to the table? What risks do they bring? It's not necessarily "hating" to think that the potential costs outweigh the (probably limited) benefits for hikers.

    I mean, if MTBs are widely popular on hiking trails in 20 years, how is that a good thing for me? My trails are often crowded as it is, so I have zero interest in attracting MTBs. I don't want MTBs on the trails (I like to hike with my kids, too) or trails closed to hikers because MTBs take over.

    It is possible that someday I won't be physically able to hike without an assist, but I'm guessing that at that point I won't be hiking at all anymore just due to general frailty. I've been getting slower for the last decade or more and I still have a load of fun, so I don't see the appeal of "feeling like a kid again".

    The bottom line for me, and for many hikers, is that *the trails are more important than the bikes*. More speed and more technology is neat, but it's not worth losing what really matters.

    This is why I don't want hikers and MTBs on trails with each other. They need to stay separate things, gain (or lose) access separately, and both groups need to recognize that the trails are what matter the most. All else is secondary.
    What's your point?

    That is how hikers and equestrians have always felt. That is why real mtbers have been fighting for access for decades. That is why we don't want motorized bikes that look just like real mountain bikes on all of the MUT's.
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    Um, what? If your point is that plenty of hikers really dislike bikes (and would be apoplectic about e-bikes) on trails, that's certainly true.

    MTB riders (like me) already brought widespread access to the table - by working their butts off in many different areas. E-bike riders could do the same, but they're not going to get much help from mountain bikers (witness the hostility here) especially if they insist on insulting the very folks they probably need to at least stay neutral.

    Go start attending city council meetings and talking to land managers if you want to start riding your e-bike legally on more trails. It might work, it might not. Around here the precedent has pretty much been set and they're widely banned already, but with enough effort that *might* be reversible.

    Making mountain bikers angry (on the internet or otherwise) might be fun, but it's counterproductive. E bikes have a ton of enemies already.

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    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post

    This is why I don't want hikers and MTBs on trails with each other.

    I see you slipped in a misquote, the above statement was never said and is an important difference.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    IME, at least here, where we actually have a semi substantial local bike industry (SRAM/Rockshox, Rotor, Borealis, SRM) the "industry" has zero impact on what gets built, where, and who gets to use it. It's all local groups and locals, and then the land managers who make the final decisions. Local shops effectively do nothing. Here, I know they can be a driving force elsewhere.

    Most of the industry money gets spent on politics or maybe specific grants. A Bell built grant for example. Peopleforbikes spent $4 million last year of industry money and most people have never heard of them.

    http://2016.peopleforbikes.org/2016-pfb-financials.pdf

    I agree that they put the cart before the horse in trying to sell ebikes before there was any consensus and uniformity on access. It's just greed, the US companies were trying to catch the EU market, where they were the latecomers and they started selling them here too.
    Agree, we also have some industry but they do help with Trail maintenance and sponsoring events etc. REI is greatly appreciated here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    This is why I don't want hikers and MTBs on trails with each other. They need to stay separate things, gain (or lose) access separately, and both groups need to recognize that the trails are what matter the most. All else is secondary.
    I think you should edit your post, this isn't at all what I said. I said "This is why I don't want mountain bikes and e-bikes conflated with each other." not "This is why I don't want e-bikes and MTBs on trails together".

    Seriously, misquoting me is lame.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sfgiantsfan View Post
    What's your point?

    That is how hikers and equestrians have always felt. That is why real mtbers have been fighting for access for decades. That is why we don't want motorized bikes that look just like real mountain bikes on all of the MUT's.
    Exactly.
    Mountain bikers never made any demands on hikers to pretend the activities were exactly the same thing, and never went into anything expecting hikers take responsibility for us. We banded together and earned our keep and the respect of many (if not most) land managers. Even many hikers are now big fans because of the incredible amount of trail work we do (at least in my region); I get thanked all the time.

    If an e-bike group got together to build and maintain a bunch of sweet-ass trails around here, I'm sure they'd gain fans. If e-bikers just try to muscle in based on perceived entitlement, they'll most likely end up shunned.
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Exactly.
    Mountain bikers never made any demands on hikers to pretend the activities were exactly the same thing, and never went into anything expecting hikers take responsibility for us. We banded together and earned our keep and the respect of many (if not most) land managers. Even many hikers are now big fans because of the incredible amount of trail work we do (at least in my region); I get thanked all the time.

    If an e-bike group got together to build and maintain a bunch of sweet-ass trails around here, I'm sure they'd gain fans. If e-bikers just try to muscle in based on perceived entitlement, they'll most likely end up shunned.
    Yep, several of the trail systems around me were built by mountain bikers and the hikers realize that they are guests, mountain bikes even have the right of way. My Sorba group organizes and perfoms trail maintenance with NPS volunteers and we all get thanked by passing bikers, hikers and trail runners. My chapter also is building new trails in city parks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    I tend to agree, but let's be honest - what do e-bike riders bring to the table? What risks do they bring? It's not necessarily "hating" to think that the potential costs outweigh the (probably limited) benefits for mountain bikers.
    100% agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    I tend to agree, but let's be honest - what do MTB riders bring to the table? What risks do they bring? It's not necessarily "hating" to think that the potential costs outweigh the (probably limited) benefits for hikers.
    That's exactly what other trail users (hikers, equestrians, etc) say about mountain bikers.

    My point? Mountain bikers and e-bikers are separate groups. You want to ride your e-bike where I ride my mountain bike? Okay, go get permission from the land managers. Don't try to pretend to belong to a user group that you are not.

    Also, as a mountain biker, I am free and not at all a hypocrite to advocate for access for my group and to be skeptical of yours. That's because we're separate user groups with separate issues, attributes, and impacts.

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    This is like wac a mole or a merry-go-round after addressing the same subject for the umpteenth time. Most of the e+ & e- (maybe e-neutrals too) have agreed that e-MTB and MTB are separate. It's obvious the MTB group doesn't want to enter e-MTB waters and I don't blame them. The e+ group needs to create access by whatever means seem viable. SHM & KJ can't we make this a stipulation and move on?

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    Quote Originally Posted by fos'l View Post
    This is like wac a mole or a merry-go-round after addressing the same subject for the umpteenth time. Most of the e+ & e- (maybe e-neutrals too) have agreed that e-MTB and MTB are separate. It's obvious the MTB group doesn't want to enter e-MTB waters and I don't blame them. The e+ group needs to create access by whatever means seem viable. SHM & KJ can't we make this a stipulation and move on?
    Seems like at least half of the pro e-bike crowd here believes that electric bikes are equal to bicycles in every way and deserve the same access as them. To me that seems to be the general plan, and the most viable way for them to gain universal access.

    It is similar to wac-a-mole though, none of the bickering here will change the legalities of anything.
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    JB, you're probably correct so I guess the game/ride will go on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Seems like at least half of the pro e-bike crowd here believes that electric bikes are equal to bicycles in every way and deserve the same access as them. To me that seems to be the general plan, and the most viable way for them to gain universal access.

    It is similar to wac-a-mole though, none of the bickering here will change the legalities of anything.
    Yep.

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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    It is similar to wac-a-mole though, none of the bickering here will change the legalities of anything.
    I disagree. Where else is the "industry" getting the accurate perception that there is an anti-ebike sentiment in the US? I guarantee the manufacturers and distributors are well aware of the ebike "dialogue" that goes on both here and Pinkbike, and all the other mtb websites. The comment section on Pinkbike is, as funny as it sounds, a powerful thing that advertisers do pay attention to.
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    I need something in life to bitch about.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fos'l View Post
    This is like wac a mole or a merry-go-round after addressing the same subject for the umpteenth time. Most of the e+ & e- (maybe e-neutrals too) have agreed that e-MTB and MTB are separate. It's obvious the MTB group doesn't want to enter e-MTB waters and I don't blame them. The e+ group needs to create access by whatever means seem viable. SHM & KJ can't we make this a stipulation and move on?
    While I agree with you, the fundemental divide is "it's a bicycle/it's not a bicycle", which while there are legal positions for both, at least on a discussion forum, that doesn't really matter when it's people arguing over their point of view. If the mods or FC chooses one side as the MTBR stated position, and eliminates any further discussion, then the forum becomes only a place to post information, ebike reviews, and notifications as to where you can legally ride. Which would reduce it's value IMO, I've seen people here change or at least moderate their positions, in both directions once they consider what others have to say. Not many, but a few.... lol

    While it's very true that the bickering here has little effect directly on actual accesss, it can in the end. These forums are seen by way more than just the usual posters, and I see talking points that originate here, or seem to anyway, reappearing elsewhere on the internet and then into face to face discussions in the real world.

  44. #444
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    Quote Originally Posted by watermonkey View Post
    I disagree. Where else is the "industry" getting the accurate perception that there is an anti-ebike sentiment in the US? I guarantee the manufacturers and distributors are well aware of the ebike "dialogue" that goes on both here and Pinkbike, and all the other mtb websites. The comment section on Pinkbike is, as funny as it sounds, a powerful thing that advertisers do pay attention to.

    I'd like to believe that and if I'm honest part of me would like to think that my puny opinion might make a difference. In reality though I don't think the industry gives a crap about anti-ebike sentiment as long as it doesn't affect their bottom line. I think manufactures are banking on access by means of legally defining class 1 electric bikes as non-motorized vehicles the same as bicycles, and most likely it's already a foregone conclusion.
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  45. #445
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    Quote Originally Posted by fos'l View Post
    This is like wac a mole or a merry-go-round after addressing the same subject for the umpteenth time. Most of the e+ & e- (maybe e-neutrals too) have agreed that e-MTB and MTB are separate. It's obvious the MTB group doesn't want to enter e-MTB waters and I don't blame them. The e+ group needs to create access by whatever means seem viable. SHM & KJ can't we make this a stipulation and move on?
    Unless fc wants to come in and make a ruling, I think this thread is actually the perfect place to keep this debate corralled.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    If the mods or FC chooses one side as the MTBR stated position, and eliminates any further discussion, then the forum becomes only a place to post information, ebike reviews, and notifications as to where you can legally ride. Which would reduce it's value IMO, I've seen people here change or at least moderate their positions, in both directions once they consider what others have to say. Not many, but a few.... lol

    While it's very true that the bickering here has little effect directly on actual accesss, it can in the end. These forums are seen by way more than just the usual posters, and I see talking points that originate here, or seem to anyway, reappearing elsewhere on the internet and then into face to face discussions in the real world.
    I for one have changed my mind over the years being part of this sub-forum. I think it is healthy for there to be discussion here. As long as new users do not come in and create new threads that state "eBikes = pedalbikes" and all the debate stays here it is a good thing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    Unless fc wants to come in and make a ruling, I think this thread is actually the perfect place to keep this debate corralled.



    I for one have changed my mind over the years being part of this sub-forum. I think it is healthy for there to be discussion here. As long as new users do not come in and create new threads that state "eBikes = pedalbikes" and all the debate stays here it is a good thing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    Have you turned to the dark side?!!!
    Huh? What side of the debate do you think I stand on?
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  48. #448
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    Iím guessing youíre pro ebike. Maybe you didnít start that way, but being around a few with friends / other riders, may have swayed you into realizing theyíre not that bad? Idk, just guessing 🤔

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silentfoe View Post
    As long as a 3000 watt ebike looks like a class 1 ebike and no one can tell the difference, they will all be banned.
    Thing is, it's very easy to tell a 3000 watt e-bike from a Class 1. The dead giveaway is the massive battery.

    A 3000 watt e-bike with a small battery has too short of a range to appeal to those who would buy a 3000 watt e-bike in the first place.

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    What does the industry have to do with anything here? Companies will make what people will buy. They don't care if some people hate their product so long as there are others who buy it.

    The boycott thing is lame, too. When has a boycott ever accomplished anything? Beyond the practical aspect, I don't think it's the role of business to decide what products are good or bad or where and when they should be used.

    I hate the ebike concept personally but like I said earlier, if you're not hurting anybody but yourself, have at it. My only concern is the impact that your ebike might have on me and my trails. If all you do is ride your ebike on fire roads, motorized vehicle trails, and/or pavement, you don't affect my trails at all so have a blast. If you're talking about getting ebikes onto tight, twisty, sensitive single track, then we have beef.

  51. #451
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    Quote Originally Posted by EricTheDood View Post
    Thing is, it's very easy to tell a 3000 watt e-bike from a Class 1. The dead giveaway is the massive battery.

    A 3000 watt e-bike with a small battery has too short of a range to appeal to those who would buy a 3000 watt e-bike in the first place.
    Seriously? Nope.

    Maybe in general they are bigger but there are some huge ass batteries out there.

    If they ever make class 1 ebikes legal on trails are they going to standardize battery sizes so we can easily tell at a glance? Nope.

    Are they going to come out with a size list so we can compare against It? Nope

    Are batteries and their technology one of the things manufacturers are keen to significantly improve, to include making much smaller? Yep.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Silentfoe View Post
    Seriously? Nope.

    Maybe in general they are bigger but there are some huge ass batteries out there.

    If they ever make class 1 ebikes legal on trails are they going to standardize battery sizes so we can easily tell at a glance? Nope.

    Are they going to come out with a size list so we can compare against It? Nope

    Are batteries and their technology one of the things manufacturers are keen to significantly improve, to include making much smaller? Yep.



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    Class 1s with huge batteries are few and far between.

    You can certainly limit battery sizes on trails, using risk of fire as a reason. That doesn't mean it's enforceable, but it'll put manufacturers on notice. Use TSA's battery limit policy as legal precedent.

    As for batteries "significantly improving", with regards to weight and bulk, good luck on that. What manufacturers are "keen" on doing is often a far cry from reality, which is that lithium battery technology has plateaued. Hence the gigafactories. You don't spend billions on a factory to mass produce a product in its infancy.

  53. #453
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    Quote Originally Posted by kpdemello View Post
    What does the industry have to do with anything here? Companies will make what people will buy. They don't care if some people hate their product so long as there are others who buy it.

    The boycott thing is lame, too. When has a boycott ever accomplished anything? Beyond the practical aspect, I don't think it's the role of business to decide what products are good or bad or where and when they should be used.

    I hate the ebike concept personally but like I said earlier, if you're not hurting anybody but yourself, have at it. My only concern is the impact that your ebike might have on me and my trails. If all you do is ride your ebike on fire roads, motorized vehicle trails, and/or pavement, you don't affect my trails at all so have a blast. If you're talking about getting ebikes onto tight, twisty, sensitive single track, then we have beef.
    Weíre cool, I donít ride with you or on your trails. Have a good day.

  54. #454
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    Quote Originally Posted by kpdemello View Post
    I need something in life to bitch about.
    Why?

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    Quote Originally Posted by kpdemello View Post
    If you're talking about getting ebikes onto tight, twisty, sensitive single track, then we have beef.
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  56. #456
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    How I feel about 29ers...
    Works for those of us with sasquatch like arm and legs

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    Quote Originally Posted by EricTheDood View Post
    Class 1s with huge batteries are few and far between.

    You can certainly limit battery sizes on trails, using risk of fire as a reason. That doesn't mean it's enforceable, but it'll put manufacturers on notice. Use TSA's battery limit policy as legal precedent.

    As for batteries "significantly improving", with regards to weight and bulk, good luck on that. What manufacturers are "keen" on doing is often a far cry from reality, which is that lithium battery technology has plateaued. Hence the gigafactories. You don't spend billions on a factory to mass produce a product in its infancy.
    Plateau? Tell that to Tesla. Man was not meant to fly. The model T is the pinnacle of evolution. Self driving cars? Never. Man will never go to the moon. Etc. Tubeless tires are a fad. Battery size? In the top tube, made up of the down tube, looking like water bottles or in the backpack? Like those?

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    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    Plateau? Tell that to Tesla. Man was not meant to fly. The model T is the pinnacle of evolution. Self driving cars? Never. Man will never go to the moon. Etc. Tubeless tires are a fad. Battery size? In the top tube, made up of the down tube, looking like water bottles or in the backpack? Like those?
    Funny you mention Tesla, because I was specifically referring to them and their original gigafactory.

    https://www.greentechmedia.com/artic...ore#gs.I910AFk

    Don't get me wrong, lithium WILL be replaced. Eventually.

    But I trust that for someone like Elon Musk to go "all-in" on Li-ion, the next breakthrough technology is, at a minimum, 10-20 years away from commercialization.

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    I give it 5 years on the discovery level.

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    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    I give it 5 years on the discovery level.
    Based on... hopes and dreams?

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    Quote Originally Posted by EricTheDood View Post
    Funny you mention Tesla, because I was specifically referring to them and their original gigafactory.

    https://www.greentechmedia.com/artic...ore#gs.I910AFk

    Don't get me wrong, lithium WILL be replaced. Eventually.

    But I trust that for someone like Elon Musk to go "all-in" on Li-ion, the next breakthrough technology is, at a minimum, 10-20 years away from commercialization.
    Considering how much money is to be made in the battery industry, I'd suspect many companies are throwing serious money at coming up with the next battery tech.

    Groundbreaking Fast-Charging Battery Technology by Toshiba Triples E-Bike Range¬*

    As of now you can have a 3+kw bike with a backpack battery that would pass as either a class 1 or plain old mtb for most people.

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    Regardless of your feelings about Elon Musk, does anyone really believe that batteries (for bikes or anything else) won't continue to improve over decade+ timescales?

    Because if your argument is "3kW e-bikes are impossible because batteries", then you're staking a pretty bold claim that we'll see no progress whatsoever on that front for a long time.

    I have a vested interest (3 and 5 year old ones) in making sure the trails I love are still open to bikes in 20, 30, 40 years.

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    I like that...."my trails".

    Quote Originally Posted by kpdemello View Post
    What does the industry have to do with anything here? Companies will make what people will buy. They don't care if some people hate their product so long as there are others who buy it.

    The boycott thing is lame, too. When has a boycott ever accomplished anything? Beyond the practical aspect, I don't think it's the role of business to decide what products are good or bad or where and when they should be used.

    I hate the ebike concept personally but like I said earlier, if you're not hurting anybody but yourself, have at it. My only concern is the impact that your ebike might have on me and my trails. If all you do is ride your ebike on fire roads, motorized vehicle trails, and/or pavement, you don't affect my trails at all so have a blast. If you're talking about getting ebikes onto tight, twisty, sensitive single track, then we have beef.

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    Mine.

  65. #465
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    Iím guessing youíre pro ebike. Maybe you didnít start that way, but being around a few with friends / other riders, may have swayed you into realizing theyíre not that bad? Idk, just guessing 🤔
    More neutral really.

    I have ridden a kit bike eBike with a throttle, I do not know the wattage, but it was very fun and odd at the same time.
    I have ridden with guys on Pedelecs, again I did not know the wattage.
    I have been passed while climbing by a guy on a pedelec, again I did not know the wattage, but it was probably a Turbo Levo.

    As long as the eBikes I see and interact with are 250w Class 1, I really see no problem with them in the area's I ride.

    I will never buy one, because I ride for the fun AND the exercise, and I would be cheating myself. I get just a few hours a week to ride, and I do those rides with friends. Getting a eBike would mean less exercise for me in those few hours(unless they all bought eBikes and we put in double the miles in the same amount of time, but I do not see that happening).

    I am not going to go on a crusade to block eBikers, but I certainly am not going to include them in a trail access discussion as being the same as a pedal only bike. The feelings that are evoked by many when they hear the word "motor" or "motorized" can be very negative, and I would not want anyone with the power to block access to trails to ever lump pedal bikes with eBikes.

    The entire nature of adding a motor to a bike is why this topic is so sensitive in the US. Motors have been vilified over the years, and become off-limits to many areas.

    There is no easy answer today/right now. We all will have to collectively wait and see what happens, and those who are Pro-eBike need to form or join groups and start advocating if they want to avoid blanket bans.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    Considering how much money is to be made in the battery industry, I'd suspect many companies are throwing serious money at coming up with the next battery tech.

    Groundbreaking Fast-Charging Battery Technology by Toshiba Triples E-Bike Range¬*
    SCiB has been around for over 10 years now and has yet to realize commercialization.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    As of now you can have a 3+kw bike with a backpack battery that would pass as either a class 1 or plain old mtb for most people.
    LOL, because that's not conspicuous.

    Why Are E-Bikes Such a Touchy Subject in the U.S.?-batterycordless3.png

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    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    Because if your argument is "3kW e-bikes are impossible because batteries", then you're staking a pretty bold claim that we'll see no progress whatsoever on that front for a long time.

    I have a vested interest (3 and 5 year old ones) in making sure the trails I love are still open to bikes in 20, 30, 40 years.

    -Walt
    Not bold, just realistic.

    There are plenty of valid reasons to oppose e-MTBs on your local trails.

    The idea that 3KW stealth e-bikes will be a reality in 20+ years, however, is not one of them, not because it can't/won't happen, but because the entire technological landscape will be very different by then. Quadcopters will be transporting hikers straight to the top of the mountains.

    https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/...der/100848734/

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    Quote Originally Posted by EricTheDood View Post
    Not bold, just realistic.

    There are plenty of valid reasons to oppose e-MTBs on your local trails.

    The idea that 3KW stealth e-bikes will be a reality in 20+ years, however, is not one of them, not because it can't/won't happen, but because the entire technological landscape will be very different by then. Quadcopters will be transporting hikers straight to the top of the mountains.

    https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/...der/100848734/
    So you consider getting quad coptered up to the top of a mountain hiking, no wonder you think riding a motor bike up a hill is mountain biking.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sfgiantsfan View Post
    So you consider getting quad coptered up to the top of a mountain hiking, no wonder you think riding a motor bike up a hill is mountain biking.
    Do you consider lift-served trails to be "mountain bike" trails or ?????

    If someone rides a cart while golfing are they really golfing?

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    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    Do you consider lift-served trails to be "mountain bike" trails or ?????

    If someone rides a cart while golfing are they really golfing?

    I don't think anyone cares if electric bikes are ridden in lift served mtb parks or golf courses.
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  71. #471
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    Quote Originally Posted by EricTheDood View Post
    Based on... hopes and dreams?
    In the Boston area? We call it MIT. Stanford on the west coast.

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    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    Do you consider lift-served trails to be "mountain bike" trails or ?????
    You don't even need to go that far.

    If you have to drive to a local trailhead with your bike on a rack, you're not MTBing. You're driving.

  73. #473
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    Quote Originally Posted by EricTheDood View Post
    If you have to drive to a local trailhead with your bike on a rack, you're not MTBing. You're driving.
    Excellent observation, driving is different than riding.
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  74. #474
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    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    Do you consider lift-served trails to be "mountain bike" trails or ?????

    If someone rides a cart while golfing are they really golfing?
    Nobody here cares if you ride an e-bike at a lift-served bike park. They are closed to hikers and DH only. You could ride a motorcycle (or hell, an ATV) on most of them. As long as the resort/trail center is making money, there is zero chance of mountain bikes losing access.

    We're concerned about MUTs, where it's a different story entirely.

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  75. #475
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    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    If someone rides a cart while golfing are they really golfing?
    Good point; in pro golfing you can't use a cart unless you're physically disabled.

    See where this is going...?
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  76. #476
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    More neutral really.

    I have ridden a kit bike eBike with a throttle, I do not know the wattage, but it was very fun and odd at the same time.
    I have ridden with guys on Pedelecs, again I did not know the wattage.
    I have been passed while climbing by a guy on a pedelec, again I did not know the wattage, but it was probably a Turbo Levo.

    As long as the eBikes I see and interact with are 250w Class 1, I really see no problem with them in the area's I ride.

    I will never buy one, because I ride for the fun AND the exercise, and I would be cheating myself. I get just a few hours a week to ride, and I do those rides with friends. Getting a eBike would mean less exercise for me in those few hours(unless they all bought eBikes and we put in double the miles in the same amount of time, but I do not see that happening).

    I am not going to go on a crusade to block eBikers, but I certainly am not going to include them in a trail access discussion as being the same as a pedal only bike. The feelings that are evoked by many when they hear the word "motor" or "motorized" can be very negative, and I would not want anyone with the power to block access to trails to ever lump pedal bikes with eBikes.

    The entire nature of adding a motor to a bike is why this topic is so sensitive in the US. Motors have been vilified over the years, and become off-limits to many areas.

    There is no easy answer today/right now. We all will have to collectively wait and see what happens, and those who are Pro-eBike need to form or join groups and start advocating if they want to avoid blanket bans.
    Good point and politically correct answer in a very touchy sub forum! Your right, everything is speculation, now. Iím guessing some of these manufacturers have a crystal ball or have some very good contacts. I just have friends in low places..👍

  77. #477
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    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    Do you consider lift-served trails to be "mountain bike" trails or ?????
    Yes. But they have dedicated trails and parks for it. I'm certainly fine if ebikers want to create their own private dedicated ebike parks.

    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    If someone rides a cart while golfing are they really golfing?
    That's a pretty strained analogy. Riding an ebike is more like having a machine swing the club for you in golf.

  78. #478
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    Quote Originally Posted by kpdemello View Post
    That's a pretty strained analogy. Riding an ebike is more like having a machine swing the club for you in golf.
    You clearly never rode a Pedelec style e-Bike. Your analogy is actually the flawed one.

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    Note to everyone: the golf analogy makes no sense.

    -Walt

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    Quote Originally Posted by RickBullottaPA View Post
    You clearly never rode a Pedelec style e-Bike. Your analogy is actually the flawed one.
    Never have and don't care to try one. Nor do I feel the need to try one to validate my opinion on ebikes. There are legitimate reasons behind my views that have nothing to do with how well or not well the thing pedals, or how much fun it is to ride. I'm sure it's a blast and everything but so is riding an ATV, and I don't think those should be allowed everywhere either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    Note to everyone: the golf analogy makes no sense.
    True. Analogies rarely do.

  81. #481
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    Note to everyone: the golf analogy makes no sense to me.

    -Walt
    FIFY.

    Actually it's a great analogy.

    Back in the dim times folks that liked hitting around little round balls out in the countryside decided that if they wanted decent areas to play their game they would need to get organized and obtain land for just their sport. At some point a whole set of rules was formulated. Like real men (and women) didn't use golf carts to make their game easier. Powered golf carts were OK for the flabby public, it was recognized that their participation would help fund the elite (and those that would self-caddie).

    So one of the ways this relates to MTB'ing is bike MFG's know that pushing e-bikes on the "flabby public" is an easy way to get the multitudes into a sport where "par" is now determined by Strava. Until bikers start paying "greens fees" the only form financial clout we have is what we purchase; electrified or not.
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  82. #482
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moe Ped View Post
    Until bikers start paying "greens fees" the only form financial clout we have is what we purchase; electrified or not.
    Not true at all. We use dollar numbers all of the time when presenting to cities and land managers as incentive to allow more mountain bikers.

    Our local BLM also has a trail fund that is flush with money due solely to mountain bike events held on BLM land.

    Not a single penny of that is from ebikes.

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  83. #483
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    Note to everyone: the golf analogy makes no sense.

    -Walt
    It makes perfect sense. People rag on eBikes because they disrupt the "purity" of the holy sport of mountain biking. People rag on carts for the exact same reason. You are not a *real* golfer if you ride in a cart, because the sport was meant to be a physical challenge that is "lost" if you ride a cart. Golf is too "easy" for people who ride in carts, and carts bring too many people onto the course and mess up the conditions. People who would otherwise not be on the golf course are in the way of the people who "deserve" to be there.

    Exactly. The. Same.

  84. #484
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silentfoe View Post
    Not true at all. We use dollar numbers all of the time when presenting to cities and land managers as incentive to allow more mountain bikers.

    Our local BLM also has a trail fund that is flush with money due solely to mountain bike events held on BLM land.

    Not a single penny of that is from ebikes.

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    Where is this land of milk and honey of which you speak?
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  85. #485
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    Note to everyone: the golf analogy makes no sense.
    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    It makes perfect sense. People rag on eBikes because they disrupt the "purity" of the holy sport of mountain biking. People rag on carts for the exact same reason. You are not a *real* golfer if you ride in a cart, because the sport was meant to be a physical challenge that is "lost" if you ride a cart. Golf is too "easy" for people who ride in carts, and carts bring too many people onto the course and mess up the conditions. People who would otherwise not be on the golf course are in the way of the people who "deserve" to be there.

    Exactly. The. Same.
    I'll play devil's advocate for you. Is walking from hole to hole really essential to the game of golf? Isn't golf really just about hitting a ball off a tee and trying to get it into the hole? Using motorized transport really doesn't disrupt or take away from anything that makes a good golfer a good golfer. It just makes it easier to get from tee off to tee off.

    On the other hand, pedaling the bike is essential to the sport of mountain biking. It's what makes it what it is. When you make that easier by adding a motor, you are diluting the essence of the sport. It's like golfing with a bionic arm or a mechanized driver.

    In the end you can go round and round with these analogies and not get anywhere. Analogies prove nothing, demonstrate nothing, and offer nothing. They are just clever tools that at best merely communicate a sentiment or a feeling.

  86. #486
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    Quote Originally Posted by kpdemello View Post
    I'll play devil's advocate for you. Is walking from hole to hole really essential to the game of golf? Isn't golf really just about hitting a ball off a tee and trying to get it into the hole? Using motorized transport really doesn't disrupt or take away from anything that makes a good golfer a good golfer. It just makes it easier to get from tee off to tee off.

    On the other hand, pedaling the bike is essential to the sport of mountain biking. It's what makes it what it is. When you make that easier by adding a motor, you are diluting the essence of the sport. It's like golfing with a bionic arm or a mechanized driver.

    In the end you can go round and round with these analogies and not get anywhere. Analogies prove nothing, demonstrate nothing, and offer nothing. They are just clever tools that at best merely communicate a sentiment or a feeling.
    Go talk to the people who didn't even want Casey Martin to be able to use a cart when he is officially disabled by a serious disease. Golf purists believe walking is integral to golf.

    Pedaling *is* essential to mountain biking. You have to pedal an Class 1 eBike.

    You're welcome.

  87. #487
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    Quote Originally Posted by kpdemello View Post
    I'll play devil's advocate for you. Is walking from hole to hole really essential to the game of golf? Isn't golf really just about hitting a ball off a tee and trying to get it into the hole? Using motorized transport really doesn't disrupt or take away from anything that makes a good golfer a good golfer. It just makes it easier to get from tee off to tee off.






    Golf is a very nuanced game, riding in a cart vs. walking the course does make a huge difference imho. I believe the average 18 hole lap is about 5 miles so there is some physical exertion involved in walking a round or two or three.
    You meet the craziest people riding e-bikes!

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  88. #488
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moe Ped View Post
    FIFY.

    Actually it's a great analogy.

    Back in the dim times folks that liked hitting around little round balls out in the countryside decided that if they wanted decent areas to play their game they would need to get organized and obtain land for just their sport. At some point a whole set of rules was formulated. Like real men (and women) didn't use golf carts to make their game easier. Powered golf carts were OK for the flabby public, it was recognized that their participation would help fund the elite (and those that would self-caddie).
    Ummm....actually, the analogy had nothing at all to do with golf carts.
    He brought up a 'machine that swings the club for you'.

    Walt, as usual, is dead on.
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  89. #489
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Ummm....actually, the analogy had nothing at all to do with golf carts.
    He brought up a 'machine that swings the club for you'.

    Walt, as usual, is dead on.
    Ummm OK but was Walt referring to #469 or #477? Or to both??? The discussion started with carts and went to swinging machines.

    The bigger picture is how golfers pay for access to their sport.
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  90. #490
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    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    Go talk to the people who didn't even want Casey Martin to be able to use a cart when he is officially disabled by a serious disease. Golf purists believe walking is integral to golf.
    And most golfers would probably say that golfing is still golf even if you use a cart. Like I said, you can go round and round with an analogy and get absolutely no where.

    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    Pedaling *is* essential to mountain biking.
    If you accept this premise, then logically it follows that any help offered by a motor that allows you to pedal faster/harder changes the nature of the activity from "mountain biking" to something else.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silentfoe View Post
    Not true at all. We use dollar numbers all of the time when presenting to cities and land managers as incentive to allow more mountain bikers.

    Our local BLM also has a trail fund that is flush with money due solely to mountain bike events held on BLM land.

    Not a single penny of that is from ebikes.

    Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
    Could that have anything to do with the fact ebikes are not permitted to participate?

  92. #492
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    Who gives a flying rats a**. If you wanna own an ebike, buy one. If not, donít. Just donít judge either way. There is no sense trying to convert anyone. Iíll continue to do whatever puts a smile on my face, hell it may be jumping golf carts! That always works.😳

  93. #493
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    Quote Originally Posted by EricTheDood View Post
    SCiB has been around for over 10 years now and has yet to realize commercialization.



    LOL, because that's not conspicuous.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Why Are E-Bikes Such a Touchy Subject in the U.S.?-ego2.jpg

    Why Are E-Bikes Such a Touchy Subject in the U.S.?-best-mtb-shorts.jpg

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  94. #494
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    I think most of us are kinda set in our opinions here. Which doesn't surprise me. Let's revisit in, oh, 3-5 years.

    In the meantime, I'll ride my "normal" bike, my e-Bike, my fatbike, and my dirtbike, whenever and wherever I'm allowed, and smile the whole time.

    For now, I have to shut down the computer, fire up the e-Bike, and go take some KOMs from Stravassholes. ;-)

  95. #495
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    Ok, how about this. Is someone who plays miniature golf participating in the same sport as someone who plays tradition golf? They have a whole lot in common but most people would agree that miniature golf is easier (no long drives) and thus, missing some of the key difficulties of traditional golf, it is not the same as actual golf but rather its own sport.
    There are two types of people in this world:
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  96. #496
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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    and thus, missing some of the key difficulties of traditional golf, it is not the same as actual golf but rather its own sport.
    Neither is a sport. They are games.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    Who gives a flying rats a**. If you wanna own an ebike, buy one. If not, donít. Just donít judge either way.
    I reserve the right to judge the shit out of anyone, anywhere, at any time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    Ok, how about this. Is someone who plays miniature golf participating in the same sport as someone who plays tradition golf? They have a whole lot in common but most people would agree that miniature golf is easier (no long drives) and thus, missing some of the key difficulties of traditional golf, it is not the same as actual golf but rather its own sport.
    Do you have derailleurs on your mountain bike? Suspension? Disk brakes?

  98. #498
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    Quote Originally Posted by kpdemello View Post
    Neither is a sport. They are games.



    I reserve the right to judge the shit out of anyone, anywhere, at any time.
    Of course you do. Donít let that crap weather upset you!

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    My point was that golf carts vs. walking vs. mechanical drivers vs. shooting the ball from a howitzer is irrelevant because *golfers don't have any problem losing access to the places they play golf*.

    -Walt

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    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    Do you have derailleurs on your mountain bike? Suspension? Disk brakes?
    not on my single speed
    not on my CX that I sometimes ride on single track
    not on my single speed nor on my CX

    why do you ask?

    btw, they also don't have motors, because then they would be ebikes instead of bicycles and I would be ebiking instead of mountain biking.
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