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  1. #301
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    They are legal on bike paths in SC.
    Just to add to your statement, AFAIK, Class 1 & 2 are permitted on bike paths in CA, UT, NC, SC, and TN unless specifically excluded. There may be other states with different regulations allowing them.

  2. #302
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    Quote Originally Posted by fos'l View Post
    Just to add to your statement, AFAIK, Class 1 & 2 are permitted on bike paths in CA, UT, NC, SC, and TN unless specifically excluded. There may be other states with different regulations allowing them.
    Legal by state legislation on all state trails, paved or natural surface, in Minnesota. Since 2012. Pedal-only, but up to 1000 watts.

  3. #303
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    Sorry, South Carolina. Well I should say in Greenville.
    Yeah on the West Coast SC usually means Southern California. Like USC---go Trojans!
    Content here does not officially represent the CA DPR.

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  4. #304
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    Quote Originally Posted by fos'l View Post
    Just to add to your statement, AFAIK, Class 1 & 2 are permitted on bike paths in CA, UT, NC, SC, and TN unless specifically excluded. There may be other states with different regulations allowing them.
    hopefully motorized transport will be banned from such venues that will lessen mishaps due to speed/pace diff of walkers, joggers, a bicyclists.

  5. #305
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    Quote Originally Posted by nvphatty View Post
    hopefully motorized transport will be banned from such venues that will lessen mishaps due to speed/pace diff of walkers, joggers, a bicyclists.
    E-bikes are only a problem on level ground and going up hills; on a downgrade regular bikes are every bit as problematic as are e-bikes in regards to traffic conflicts.
    Content here does not officially represent the CA DPR.

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  6. #306
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    People For Bikes is the primary ebike advocacy organization at this point. They created and promote their "model" ebike legislation that has been passed by several states, and they track legality of ebikes here:

    Electric Bicycles ‚ÄĘ PeopleForBikes

  7. #307
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    Quote Originally Posted by fos'l View Post
    Just to add to your statement, AFAIK, Class 1 & 2 are permitted on bike paths in CA, UT, NC, SC, and TN unless specifically excluded. There may be other states with different regulations allowing them.
    The "specifically excluded" part is what bugs me. It basically means you still have to check every place you go to confirm. I've mentioned this before...Orange county is probably one of the most ebike heavy areas in the country. But if you ask the county park system, they will actually say ebikes are not allowed on their paved bike paths, since they are motorized vehicles. That ordnance will most likely change over the next few years. But it illustrates having that caveat of local exceptions basically makes the state law kind of useless. Not to mention all national parks in california, and there are quite a few, prohibit them from paved paths.

    I guess one could just not ask and fall back on the state law. Pretty sure they won't ticket and just give some sort of warning. But I think it would be just cleaner if class 1 + 2 are blanket ok'd for paved paths and be done with it.

  8. #308
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    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    People For Bikes is the primary ebike advocacy organization at this point. They created and promote their "model" ebike legislation that has been passed by several states, and they track legality of ebikes here:

    Electric Bicycles ‚ÄĘ PeopleForBikes
    It should be noted that P4B totally boned the legislation in California; the bill they were sponsoring was not the bill that was passed. They were supporting e-bike access only for bike lanes and bike paths; not for trails.

    For a year or so P4B was claiming AB-1096 did not apply to trails. WRONG! They finally have the correct interpretation posted and are now claiming it was "their" model.

    P4B is not to be trusted. Do your own research.
    Content here does not officially represent the CA DPR.

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  9. #309
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    Quote Originally Posted by nvphatty View Post
    hopefully motorized transport will be banned from such venues that will lessen mishaps due to speed/pace diff of walkers, joggers, a bicyclists.
    The bike path that I ride occasionally is insanely fast. Weíve got mini peletons everywhere.

  10. #310
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    Yeah, I donít think the Ebikes are going away anytime soon. All these manufacturers would not have invested in R&D and tooling if they thought it wasnít going to be a major market change.

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  11. #311
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    Hell even the TDF Froomigator winners bike brand Pinarello has just announced a carbon road ebike.

  12. #312
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    I'm opposed to electric bikes on bike and pedestrian paths for the same reason I'm opposed to them off road, which is allowing motors in places previously designated for non-motorized traffic. I realize in many peoples view here that makes me anti-ebike and a *ater but actually I'm just pro-pedestrian, I've really nothing against ebikes at all.


    Quote Originally Posted by Moe Ped View Post
    E-bikes are only a problem on level ground and going up hills; on a downgrade regular bikes are every bit as problematic as are e-bikes in regards to traffic conflicts.
    I don't buy that, admittedly I haven't ridden any modern versions but I have a friend who is a very fast rider in most anyones book and he absolutely loves e-bikes because he says he can double his mileage and feels like Chris Froome while doing it. Some sort of Specialized electric road rig. I can't imagine anyone going from a bicycle to an e-bike not upping their average speed by a fairly significant margin.
    I brake for stinkbugs

  13. #313
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    Yeah, I donít think the Ebikes are going away anytime soon. All these manufacturers would not have invested in R&D and tooling if they thought it wasnít going to be a major market change.

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    Yamaha. Shimano.

  14. #314
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    ^i have the same road ebike. I turn it off on the bike path. Are you ok with it now?

  15. #315
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuyuna View Post
    Yamaha. Shimano.
    Well yeah, but Yamaha is obviously a motorcycle company and I donít believe Shimano makes a frame or brands a bike?

  16. #316
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post


    I don't buy that, admittedly I haven't ridden any modern versions but I have a friend who is a very fast rider in most anyones book and he absolutely loves e-bikes because he says he can double his mileage and feels like Chris Froome while doing it. Some sort of Specialized electric road rig. I can't imagine anyone going from a bicycle to an e-bike not upping their average speed by a fairly significant margin.
    What is the big deal if someone goes from 12MPH to 19 MPH?

    BTW, my Haibike and I think all Bosch drive ebikes with a "20 MPH" limit actually cut at around 19 MPH.

  17. #317
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    Yeah, I donít think the Ebikes are going away anytime soon. All these manufacturers would not have invested in R&D and tooling if they thought it wasnít going to be a major market change.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    Well yeah, but Yamaha is obviously a motorcycle company and I donít believe Shimano makes a frame or brands a bike?
    Those two manufacturers, Yamaha and Shimano, would not have invested in R&D and tooling if they thought it wasnít going to be a major market change.

  18. #318
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    ^i have the same road ebike. I turn it off on the bike path. Are you ok with it now?
    Like I said, totally fine with it. Just not fine with defining them as being not motorized and therefore legal on bike paths and motor-free trails.

    No matter though, just my dumb opinion which won't change anything. Electric bikes are destined to become mainstream and allowed anywhere that bikes can go.
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  19. #319
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    Well yeah, but Yamaha is obviously a motorcycle company and I donít believe Shimano makes a frame or brands a bike?
    Yamaha is about to introduce their own line of eBikes.

    KTM already has a line of eBikes.

    The Bultaco brand of motorcycles has been resurrected selling - wait for it - ebikes.

    What you are going to see is bicycle brands and motorcycle brands both solving the ebike equation in slightly different ways.

  20. #320
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    Well yeah, but Yamaha is obviously a motorcycle company and I donít believe Shimano makes a frame or brands a bike?
    Not to argue, but Yamaha, in addition to producing e-bike motors, exhibited their new line of e-bikes, both road and MTB, at Interbike, due to be released in the spring.

  21. #321
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    Hell even the TDF Froomigator winners bike brand Pinarello has just announced a carbon road ebike.
    Cannondale, Trek, Giant, and Specialized are huge suppliers to pro road cycling and they already have eBikes. Pinarello is just catching up.

  22. #322
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    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    What is the big deal if someone goes from 12MPH to 19 MPH?
    Because 12mph seems like a relatively leisurely pace compared to 19mph, 19mph is about the speed where you start getting called an @sshole by people on busy bike paths. E-bikes will allow everyone to be Chris Froome. And they will get faster.

    Once again, nothing against electric bikes, I only have a problem with opening a legal door for motors.
    I brake for stinkbugs

  23. #323
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  24. #324
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    I'm opposed to electric bikes on bike and pedestrian paths for the same reason I'm opposed to them off road, which is allowing motors in places previously designated for non-motorized traffic. I realize in many peoples view here that makes me anti-ebike and a *ater but actually I'm just pro-pedestrian, I've really nothing against ebikes at all.




    I don't buy that, admittedly I haven't ridden any modern versions but I have a friend who is a very fast rider in most anyones book and he absolutely loves e-bikes because he says he can double his mileage and feels like Chris Froome while doing it. Some sort of Specialized electric road rig. I can't imagine anyone going from a bicycle to an e-bike not upping their average speed by a fairly significant margin.
    Good thing for us in CA is it's a state law. Also, the 20 mph limit, which is difficult to exceed on e-bikes since you're on your own when the motor shuts off, is a lot slower than many. I've been "motoring" along about 20 mph and been dropped like a rock by a road rider.

  25. #325
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    Quote Originally Posted by fos'l View Post
    Good thing for us in CA is it's a state law.
    My buddy has done all of his riding on one in California, I guarantee it well exceeded 20mph.
    I brake for stinkbugs

  26. #326
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuyuna View Post
    Those two manufacturers, Yamaha and Shimano, would not have invested in R&D and tooling if they thought it wasnít going to be a major market change.
    Absolutely correct. They are HUGE players.

  27. #327
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    Quote Originally Posted by DL723 View Post
    The "specifically excluded" part is what bugs me. It basically means you still have to check every place you go to confirm. I've mentioned this before...Orange county is probably one of the most ebike heavy areas in the country. But if you ask the county park system, they will actually say ebikes are not allowed on their paved bike paths, since they are motorized vehicles. That ordnance will most likely change over the next few years. But it illustrates having that caveat of local exceptions basically makes the state law kind of useless. Not to mention all national parks in california, and there are quite a few, prohibit them from paved paths.

    I guess one could just not ask and fall back on the state law. Pretty sure they won't ticket and just give some sort of warning. But I think it would be just cleaner if class 1 + 2 are blanket ok'd for paved paths and be done with it.
    Since it's a state law, it would seem like an area would need to post that e-bikes are prohibited. There are at least three paths in Orange County where I've encountered this. Curiously, while two say "no electric bicycles", one states "no motorized vehicles" which, by law, means e-bikes are permitted, but I won't be the test case.

  28. #328
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    Quote Originally Posted by fos'l View Post
    Not to argue, but Yamaha, in addition to producing e-bike motors, exhibited their new line of e-bikes, both road and MTB, at Interbike, due to be released in the spring.
    Yes, i understand Yamaha. Iíll add them along with Bultaco and soon to be Husqvarna. I just didnít want to hear ďha ha damn motorcycle companies blah blah blah!Ē

  29. #329
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    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    Cannondale, Trek, Giant, and Specialized are huge suppliers to pro road cycling and they already have eBikes. Pinarello is just catching up.
    Yes, but they donít produce a drop bar road ebike. I know giant and orbea do.

  30. #330
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    Quote Originally Posted by RickBullottaPA View Post
    You assume that "eBikers" and "mountain bikers" are mutually exclusive groups. That is a fallacious assumption. Some days I want to hammer hard on my Santa Cruz, and some days I want to do "enduro days" and session downhill segments, and my KTM eBike allows me to do that and get in 2X as many descents. And still get a good workout. Wrangling a 50 lb bike around is sort of a flashback to early DH bikes. And I rarely ever use the highest power output (like, almost never). Just enough to keep the ascents aerobic. And yes, I do participate in access, trail work, youth racing, and other advocacy and pro-MTB activities.

    Sadly too many people have tried to make this an "OR" discussion rather than an "AND" discussion. With some simple and common sense policies, a certain class of eBikes (and e-Bikers) can easily co-exist without any threat to access.
    I completely agree. 👍

  31. #331
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    Quote Originally Posted by RickBullottaPA View Post
    You assume that "eBikers" and "mountain bikers" are mutually exclusive groups. That is a fallacious assumption.
    The fear is that when you lump ebikers in with mountain bikers that a-holes will begin sneaking in overpowered ebikes that ruin everything.

    There are several parks near me in which moto bikes and mountain bikes are allowed on the same trails. The moto bikes tear those trails up to the point where they are nearly unrideable. Right now, I can go to the trails where those things aren't allowed and everything is awesome.

    Sure, you can tell me class 1 bikes don't have the power to do that to normal trails. I will reply that it will be impossible for land managers to tell when a bike is class 1 versus class-OMFG-MONSTER. E-monsters will then run unchecked through the trails we know and love.

    And then everything will no longer be awesome.

  32. #332
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    Are you talking about having elderly people try out eBikes for riding on the street and paved bike paths, or having them try out full suspension eMTB's designed for riding on Dirt trails?

    The 2 things are not equal at all.
    Quote Originally Posted by WoodlandHills View Post
    Do you even bother to read the posts that you respond to? I clearly stated the words "250w trikes and cruisers", one would think that a "super moderator" would at least pretend they had shown enough respect to actually take time to both read and comprehend a post before replying. Sad.......
    One would also think you could comprehend the final, most important sentence in the post you're referring to.

  33. #333
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  34. #334
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    Quote Originally Posted by kpdemello View Post
    The fear is that when you lump ebikers in with mountain bikers that a-holes will begin sneaking in overpowered ebikes that ruin everything.

    There are several parks near me in which moto bikes and mountain bikes are allowed on the same trails. The moto bikes tear those trails up to the point where they are nearly unrideable. Right now, I can go to the trails where those things aren't allowed and everything is awesome.

    Sure, you can tell me class 1 bikes don't have the power to do that to normal trails. I will reply that it will be impossible for land managers to tell when a bike is class 1 versus class-OMFG-MONSTER. E-monsters will then run unchecked through the trails we know and love.

    And then everything will no longer be awesome.
    Understood, but donít you think they would just ban Ebikes?

  35. #335
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    Quote Originally Posted by RickBullottaPA View Post
    Asshole-ed-ness is a function of personality, not what you ride or drive.
    True but machines can enhance asshole-ed-ness. That is why governments regulate stuff (cars, guns, explosives, etc).

    YOU might be responsible. However, regulations banning ebikes protect us against all the irresponsible a-holes who would smear their asshole-ed-ness all over the forest like shit on a bagel.

    Another issue is the concept that ebikes would allow more people to put more miles on the trails. Is that really desirable? Lets say people can double their mileage on an ebike. Do we really want to subject trails to that level of use? Perhaps the practical limitations of non-motorized travel is a GOOD thing in that regard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    Understood, but donít you think they would just ban Ebikes?
    Sure. But the fear is the "they" won't discriminate between MTBs and Ebikes when they drop the banhammer. Keep in mind there is a segment of users who would absolutely love to have an excuse to ban MTBs right now.

  36. #336
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    Yeah, I donít think the Ebikes are going away anytime soon. All these manufacturers would not have invested in R&D and tooling if they thought it wasnít going to be a major market change.

    Specialized
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    That's a lot of players in an unproven market and what very well may prove to be a niche market. A decent ebike will be expensive and Chinese company ebikes will take the lower end of the market. A limited number of serious cyclist will be interested in ebikes (I'm sure some here won't agree), maybe some moto types will jump in if it means they can ride non-motorized trails. I still think the biggest part of the market will be for commuters and running around town, not eMTBs.
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  37. #337
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moe Ped View Post
    E-bikes are only a problem on level ground and going up hills; on a downgrade regular bikes are every bit as problematic as are e-bikes in regards to traffic conflicts.
    Depends on the e-bike. Poachers gonna poach. My old commute included about 10 miles of nice, relatively flat, bike path. Pretty wide with good sight lines. I'd usually do 18-20mph on the flats on that stretch and there was a guy on a converted fat bike. Our commutes overlapped occasionally. Riding completely upright he would pass me like I was standing still. I would assume he was on a class 3, which would not have been legal in CO on that path. I'd guess he only pedaled to make it look semi-legit.

  38. #338
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    Quote Originally Posted by kpdemello View Post
    True but machines can enhance asshole-ed-ness. That is why governments regulate stuff (cars, guns, explosives, etc).

    YOU might be responsible. However, regulations banning ebikes protect us against all the irresponsible a-holes who would smear their asshole-ed-ness all over the forest like shit on a bagel.

    Another issue is the concept that ebikes would allow more people to put more miles on the trails. Is that really desirable? Lets say people can double their mileage on an ebike. Do we really want to subject trails to that level of use? Perhaps the practical limitations of non-motorized travel is a GOOD thing in that regard.



    Sure. But the fear is the "they" won't discriminate between MTBs and Ebikes when they drop the banhammer. Keep in mind there is a segment of users who would absolutely love to have an excuse to ban MTBs right now.
    I understand the ďfearĒ but a reasonable LM would just put up a no ebike sign. Thatís all we will see in the future. If you have a vast trail system more mileage is awesome. I donít mind climbing but when your traveling at 3-5mph for a few hours of your ride it gets boring.

  39. #339
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    Quote Originally Posted by RickBullottaPA View Post
    You assume that "eBikers" and "mountain bikers" are mutually exclusive groups. That is a fallacious assumption. Some days I want to hammer hard on my Santa Cruz, and some days I want to do "enduro days" and session downhill segments, and my KTM eBike allows me to do that and get in 2X as many descents. And still get a good workout. Wrangling a 50 lb bike around is sort of a flashback to early DH bikes. And I rarely ever use the highest power output (like, almost never). Just enough to keep the ascents aerobic. And yes, I do participate in access, trail work, youth racing, and other advocacy and pro-MTB activities.

    Sadly too many people have tried to make this an "OR" discussion rather than an "AND" discussion. With some simple and common sense policies, a certain class of eBikes (and e-Bikers) can easily co-exist without any threat to access.
    To a large degree, they are mutually exclusive groups. I also trail run, often on the very same trails that I mountain bike on. But most mountain bikers don't trail run and most trail runners don't mountain bike.
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  40. #340
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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    That's a lot of players in an unproven market and what very well may prove to be a niche market. A decent ebike will be expensive and Chinese company ebikes will take the lower end of the market. A limited number of serious cyclist will be interested in ebikes (I'm sure some here won't agree), maybe some moto types will jump in if it means they can ride non-motorized trails. I still think the biggest part of the market will be for commuters and running around town, not eMTBs.
    I agree commuter Ebikes will be the lions share.

  41. #341
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    I understand the ďfearĒ but a reasonable LM would just put up a no ebike sign.
    Sure, and a reasonable user would be considerate enough not to bring a motorized bicycle onto a non-motorized trail, but shit happens.

  42. #342
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moe Ped View Post
    It should be noted that P4B totally boned the legislation in California; the bill they were sponsoring was not the bill that was passed. They were supporting e-bike access only for bike lanes and bike paths; not for trails.

    For a year or so P4B was claiming AB-1096 did not apply to trails. WRONG! They finally have the correct interpretation posted and are now claiming it was "their" model.

    P4B is not to be trusted. Do your own research.
    They are trying to walk back and clarify their position on emtbs fwiw. Still don't trust them....

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  43. #343
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    Well yeah, but Yamaha is obviously a motorcycle company and I donít believe Shimano makes a frame or brands a bike?
    I thought Shimano made a torque sensing motor? BIkes Direct uses it on their eMTB, Shimano Steps IIRC?

  44. #344
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    Quote Originally Posted by DL723 View Post
    The "specifically excluded" part is what bugs me. It basically means you still have to check every place you go to confirm. I've mentioned this before...Orange county is probably one of the most ebike heavy areas in the country. But if you ask the county park system, they will actually say ebikes are not allowed on their paved bike paths, since they are motorized vehicles. That ordnance will most likely change over the next few years. But it illustrates having that caveat of local exceptions basically makes the state law kind of useless. Not to mention all national parks in california, and there are quite a few, prohibit them from paved paths.

    I guess one could just not ask and fall back on the state law. Pretty sure they won't ticket and just give some sort of warning. But I think it would be just cleaner if class 1 + 2 are blanket ok'd for paved paths and be done with it.
    Colorado adopted the Class 1-3 regs this summer for bike paths, there is no uniformity throughout the state. Some places allow class 1/2, some class 1 only, some, no ebikes at all. We're a home rule state, I don't see that lack of uniformity changing anytime soon, especially when cheap faster bikes become easy to find.

  45. #345
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryguy79 View Post
    One would also think you could comprehend the final, most important sentence in the post you're referring to.
    Of course they are two different things: that is why I specifically cited trikes and cruisers and did not just say ebikes. So even slow people could know that I was not talking about eMTBs.

  46. #346
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    Quote Originally Posted by kpdemello View Post
    The fear is that when you lump ebikers in with mountain bikers that a-holes will begin sneaking in overpowered ebikes that ruin everything.

    There are several parks near me in which moto bikes and mountain bikes are allowed on the same trails. The moto bikes tear those trails up to the point where they are nearly unrideable. Right now, I can go to the trails where those things aren't allowed and everything is awesome.

    Sure, you can tell me class 1 bikes don't have the power to do that to normal trails. I will reply that it will be impossible for land managers to tell when a bike is class 1 versus class-OMFG-MONSTER. E-monsters will then run unchecked through the trails we know and love.

    And then everything will no longer be awesome.
    You "class-OMFG-MONSTER" is going to be obvious the moment they kick up roost.

    I really don't get the fear issue around ebikes. Just like today, people either follow the rules or they don't. If they don't, then they need to be confronted and cited/punished.

    If you are seriously concerned, just advocate for Class 1 only. Then, if you see someone going uphill or on the flats without pedaling, they are out of compliance. No pedalec of any power is going to wreck a trail any faster than an enduro/DH rider in training. What do you do about them?

  47. #347
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    Correct, they make a motor and are a drivetrain producer, but donít produce a ďShimano ď bicycle.

  48. #348
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    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    I really don't get the fear issue around ebikes.
    It stems from the hell MTBers had to go through to get access in the first place, the fact that anti-MTB advocates are still around and looking for an excuse to ban MTBs from everywhere, and the fear that MTBers will have to fight the access battle all over again thanks to these ebikes that, philosophically, most MTBers don't even like.

  49. #349
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    Quote Originally Posted by WoodlandHills View Post
    Do you even bother to read the posts that you respond to? I clearly stated the words "250w trikes and cruisers", one would think that a "super moderator" would at least pretend they had shown enough respect to actually take time to both read and comprehend a post before replying. Sad.......
    I read it, and this discussion is why eBikes are a touchy subject specifically for Dirt Multi-use Trails, eBikes are not a touchy subject for paved street use, so discussing older people learning how to use street only eBikes has no place in this discussion. Hence I was clarifying to make sure that is exactly what the OP meant.
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  50. #350
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    Quote Originally Posted by fos'l View Post
    Good thing for us in CA is it's a state law. Also, the 20 mph limit, which is difficult to exceed on e-bikes since you're on your own when the motor shuts off, is a lot slower than many. I've been "motoring" along about 20 mph and been dropped like a rock by a road rider.
    I was climbing a 1% grade full gas doing intervals on my road bike in Orange County Ca and had a guy on what I think was a Specialized eBike MTB (big fat tires) he cruised next to me for 20 seconds or so going 28-30mph. Maybe a modified bike but I'm betting that will be the norm.
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  51. #351
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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    That's a lot of players in an unproven market and what very well may prove to be a niche market. A decent ebike will be expensive and Chinese company ebikes will take the lower end of the market. A limited number of serious cyclist will be interested in ebikes (I'm sure some here won't agree), maybe some moto types will jump in if it means they can ride non-motorized trails. I still think the biggest part of the market will be for commuters and running around town, not eMTBs.
    It would be interesting to see actual sales metrics that showed what percentage of eBike sales are for Beach Cruiser eBikes, Road Bike/Townie Bike style eBikes and full suspension MTB eBikes.

    From what I see in San Diego, seems like Beach Cruiser and Road Bike/Townie Bike make up the vast majority of any eBikes I see, they are all over the place.

    eMTB's, not as much.



    Yamaha and the others jumping in the game might see the MTB portion of sales as a niche and the road going styles as the main sellers.
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  52. #352
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    Quote Originally Posted by kpdemello View Post
    It stems from the hell MTBers had to go through to get access in the first place, the fact that anti-MTB advocates are still around and looking for an excuse to ban MTBs from everywhere, and the fear that MTBers will have to fight the access battle all over again thanks to these ebikes that, philosophically, most MTBers don't even like.
    Idk, every cyclist I know has zero issues with Ebikes. So, from ďmyĒ perspective I can say that ďmostĒ donít give a shit.

  53. #353
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    Idk, every cyclist I know has zero issues with Ebikes. So, from ďmyĒ perspective I can say that ďmostĒ donít give a shit.
    It is the Hikers and Equestrian groups you need to be worried about.
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  54. #354
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    Idk, every cyclist I know has zero issues with Ebikes. So, from ďmyĒ perspective I can say that ďmostĒ donít give a shit.
    Seriously? Have you read the thread? Every MTBer I know thinks ebikes are the devil.

  55. #355
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    Correct, they make a motor and are a drivetrain producer, but donít produce a ďShimano ď bicycle.
    So that means they are NOT "players" in the ebike market? That's like saying they aren't players in the bicycle market since they don't sell a Shimano bicycle......

  56. #356
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    Yeah seriously! I live in a mtb destination area and everyone that Iíve ridden with or know personally has zero issues with them. Real life riders. All your going to get on the Net is opposition. Do you not see them moving in? If youíre that pure and against them, Iíd suggest boycotting the bike manufacturers above! Maybe SRAM and Shimano also. Almost impossible to avoid.

  57. #357
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    Quote Originally Posted by WoodlandHills View Post
    So that means they are NOT "players" in the ebike market? That's like saying they aren't players in the bicycle market since they don't sell a Shimano bicycle......
    Of course not. I didnít list all the companies that support Ebikes. Just posted people that make a friggin frame. Cool?

  58. #358
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    Quote Originally Posted by kpdemello View Post
    Seriously? Have you read the thread? Every MTBer I know thinks ebikes are the devil.
    Next time anyone says that ebikes are not being demonized, can I quote you? Cause I think that being "devilized" is a step above being "demonized" So how can one have a discourse with people who think the other side is the literal epitome of evil? Why would anyone bother.......

  59. #359
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    Quote Originally Posted by gutch View Post
    of course not. I didnít list all the companies that support ebikes. Just posted people that make a friggin frame. Cool?
    ok.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    Yeah seriously! I live in a mtb destination area and everyone that Iíve ridden with or know personally has zero issues with them. Real life riders. All your going to get on the Net is opposition.
    I mean we are obviously from different parts of the country, but around where I live (New England) every MTBer that I have talked to looks at ebikes the way that I have posted earlier in this thread. I also got numerous people on this board giving me rep message thingies about my posts in this thread essentially saying "yeah i agree" or "well said"

    I think it's weird if you don't see that there is a sizeable group of MTBers who really don't care much for ebikes. Maybe not most, I didn't take a poll, but certainly you have to agree that there's a huge number of MTBers that just don't care for these machines.

    Quote Originally Posted by WoodlandHills View Post
    Next time anyone says that ebikes are not being demonized, can I quote you?
    Sure. I'm happy to demonize the damned things any time you want.

  61. #361
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    Quote Originally Posted by kpdemello View Post
    I mean we are obviously from different parts of the country, but around where I live (New England) every MTBer that I have talked to looks at ebikes the way that I have posted earlier in this thread. I also got numerous people on this board giving me rep message thingies about my posts in this thread essentially saying "yeah i agree" or "well said"

    I think it's weird if you don't see that there is a sizeable group of MTBers who really don't care much for ebikes. Maybe not most, I didn't take a poll, but certainly you have to agree that there's a huge number of MTBers that just don't care for these machines.



    Sure. I'm happy to demonize the damned things any time you want.
    I certainly see a large group of bikers and surely hikers and equestrian groups that are definitely opposed to them. They are new, things will change. Iím originally from New England area. I understand itís a different scene. Where are you? VT, NY, NH, PA, MA?

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    Angry Masshole here. We do hate change, especially the weather, which is why we are always angry as the weather here is unpredictable.

  63. #363
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    Yes it is. Iíve lived in Vermont and Upstate NY. Constant survival mode. Now I can ride year around, pay way less taxes and enjoy WAY more laid back people. Pretty country everywhere.

  64. #364
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    It is the Hikers and Equestrian groups you need to be worried about.
    It must vary from place to place. Around here, hikers on biking trails are barely tolerated and equestians can just stay home. They aren't allowed to be part of the decision-making process. Both groups are mostly viewed as poachers.

  65. #365
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    My buddy has done all of his riding on one in California, I guarantee it well exceeded 20mph.
    Is he riding a Class 1 or 2 bike? For information, I'd like to know how fast a "normal-type" rider could ride a 50 pound e-bike after the 20 mph limiter is shut off.

  66. #366
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rivet View Post
    I was climbing a 1% grade full gas doing intervals on my road bike in Orange County Ca and had a guy on what I think was a Specialized eBike MTB (big fat tires) he cruised next to me for 20 seconds or so going 28-30mph. Maybe a modified bike but I'm betting that will be the norm.
    IF (and I a$$ume since you were on a road bike) you were on the road or a bike lane contiguous with a road, Class 3 (28 mph) is the prevailing max assist.

  67. #367
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    On flat level ground I can barely pedal to 32 after mine shuts down at 28mph. 50# Specialized Turbo.

  68. #368
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    Quote Originally Posted by fos'l View Post
    Is he riding a Class 1 or 2 bike?
    I'm don't know, he just said it was an off the shelf specialized road bike. Could have been modded. It sounded like him and his friends there went on rides regularly with them so I don't think they were anything unusual.

    I don't know about the second question either, a lot faster than they could without it though.
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  69. #369
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    FWIW the (almost) universal e-bike speed hack costs almost nothing and is super easy.

    A magnet is put on a crank arm and the wheel speed sensor pickup is relocated to where it can "see" the magnet. Now the controller thinks your pedaling cadence is your wheel RPM.

    Works on almost any speed-limited e-bike.
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  70. #370
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    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    You "class-OMFG-MONSTER" is going to be obvious the moment they kick up roost.

    I really don't get the fear issue around ebikes. Just like today, people either follow the rules or they don't. If they don't, then they need to be confronted and cited/punished.

    If you are seriously concerned, just advocate for Class 1 only. Then, if you see someone going uphill or on the flats without pedaling, they are out of compliance. No pedalec of any power is going to wreck a trail any faster than an enduro/DH rider in training. What do you do about them?
    Or if you are seriously concerned just advocate against all bikes with motors. Like I do.
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  71. #371
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    I'm don't know, he just said it was an off the shelf specialized road bike. Could have been modded. It sounded like him and his friends there went on rides regularly with them so I don't think they were anything unusual.

    I don't know about the second question either, a lot faster than they could without it though.
    Not to argue, but I (remember, I'm old) had a hard time pushing a Haibike 50+ pound hard tail past about 24 mph when the motor shut off at an indicated 19 mph.I'm pretty sure I could have gone faster on a light road bike. Guess we need somebody to do testing. If Walt is "listening" it would be interesting to see how fast his rig goes on a flat area. The Turbo is a 28 mph bike, so he could have been going somewhat faster than that.

  72. #372
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rivet View Post
    I was climbing a 1% grade full gas doing intervals on my road bike in Orange County Ca and had a guy on what I think was a Specialized eBike MTB (big fat tires) he cruised next to me for 20 seconds or so going 28-30mph. Maybe a modified bike but I'm betting that will be the norm.
    Since max speed for Class 3 is 28mph, yes, that is the new normal.

  73. #373
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    Quote Originally Posted by fos'l View Post
    Not to argue, but I (remember, I'm old) had a hard time pushing a Haibike 50+ pound hard tail past about 24 mph when the motor shut off at an indicated 19 mph.I'm pretty sure I could have gone faster on a light road bike. Guess we need somebody to do testing. If Walt is "listening" it would be interesting to see how fast his rig goes on a flat area. The Turbo is a 28 mph bike, so he could have been going somewhat faster than that.
    Read my post above. I own 4 Turboís. Iím very familiar with them.

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    Woodland, I thought we were buds since I gave you permission to quote me. How you gonna neg rep me now?

    Dont worry tho, the 5 people who gave me positive rep based on my posts in this thread offset your obviously mistaken click. So you can still quote me on the demon ebike thing.

  75. #375
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    Quote Originally Posted by fos'l View Post
    Not to argue, but I (remember, I'm old) had a hard time pushing a Haibike 50+ pound hard tail past about 24 mph when the motor shut off at an indicated 19 mph.I'm pretty sure I could have gone faster on a light road bike. Guess we need somebody to do testing. If Walt is "listening" it would be interesting to see how fast his rig goes on a flat area. The Turbo is a 28 mph bike, so he could have been going somewhat faster than that.

    I misunderstood, I thought you meant how fast could a rider go past 20 mph with the limiter disabled. No average rider is going to be pushing any 50# bike past 20mph for very long without power assist.

    My point was that it made a very fast rider much faster, and that it would have an even greater effect (percentage wise) for an average rider.
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    One more great reason to keep buying Knolly bikes!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuyuna View Post
    It must vary from place to place. Around here, hikers on biking trails are barely tolerated and equestians can just stay home. They aren't allowed to be part of the decision-making process. Both groups are mostly viewed as poachers.
    Wow, Iíve gotta visit Minnesota!

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    Quote Originally Posted by sfgiantsfan View Post
    Or if you are seriously concerned just advocate against all bikes with motors. Like I do.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fos'l View Post
    Not to argue, but I (remember, I'm old) had a hard time pushing a Haibike 50+ pound hard tail past about 24 mph when the motor shut off at an indicated 19 mph.I'm pretty sure I could have gone faster on a light road bike. Guess we need somebody to do testing. If Walt is "listening" it would be interesting to see how fast his rig goes on a flat area. The Turbo is a 28 mph bike, so he could have been going somewhat faster than that.
    My cargo rig cuts the assist at 20. And it's very hard to go much faster than that since it weighs 75 pounds and has the aero profile (and tires) of a narcoleptic elephant.

    So basically, I have no idea. With the bike set to give max assist, getting to 20 is pretty easy even on moderate uphills. I would imagine the same power on a skinny tire road bike would let you go pretty damn fast if you wanted to (and the bike didn't have an assist cutoff).

    -Walt

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    Read my post above. I own 4 Turboís. Iím very familiar with them.
    I read yours, but the difference is Walt has a 20 mph cut-off AFAIK and is a professional rider; not to denigrate your data, but I was interested in his perspective too.

  81. #381
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    I misunderstood, I thought you meant how fast could a rider go past 20 mph with the limiter disabled. No average rider is going to be pushing any 50# bike past 20mph for very long without power assist.

    My point was that it made a very fast rider much faster, and that it would have an even greater effect (percentage wise) for an average rider.
    Thanks for clarifying; anything reasonable is possible with "modding", but I haven't done that and don't plan to.

  82. #382
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    Quote Originally Posted by fos'l View Post
    I read yours, but the difference is Walt has a 20 mph cut-off AFAIK and is a professional rider; not to denigrate your data, but I was interested in his perspective too.
    No worries, I thought you were looking for how fast past 28 on the Specialized. I know when my Levo tops out itís very hard to go faster.

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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Like I said, totally fine with it. Just not fine with defining them as being not motorized and therefore legal on bike paths and motor-free trails.
    I made the same mistake several months ago. That is, assuming that things are the same in different geographical locations.

    Take the "Strand" bike path on the LA coast that goes from Redondo Beach past Santa Monica. Some sections are filled with pedestrians. Others are empty and you'll see 25mph bike pacelines.

  84. #384
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Like I said, totally fine with it. Just not fine with defining them as being not motorized and therefore legal on bike paths and motor-free trails.

    Quote Originally Posted by EricTheDood View Post
    I made the same mistake several months ago. That is, assuming that things are the same in different geographical locations.

    Take the "Strand" bike path on the LA coast that goes from Redondo Beach past Santa Monica. Some sections are filled with pedestrians. Others are empty and you'll see 25mph bike pacelines.
    I don't know what those 2 posts have to do with each other, I think you misunderstand me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    I don't know what those 2 posts have to do with each other, I think you misunderstand me.
    Sorry, I quoted the wrong post.

    Meant to quote this one:

    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    I'm opposed to electric bikes on bike and pedestrian paths for the same reason I'm opposed to them off road, which is allowing motors in places previously designated for non-motorized traffic.
    Point being, what works in one area might not make sense in another area.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EricTheDood View Post
    ..............Point being, what works in one area might not make sense in another area.

    That's what I've been saying all along, which is why I think it's wrong to define electric bikes as being non-motorized.
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    That's what I've been saying all along, which is why I think it's wrong to define electric bikes as being non-motorized.
    Around here, pedal-assist e-bikes less than 1000 watts are defined as motorized, but that doesn't mean anything. They are not classified as motor vehicles, therefore allowed on all state trails.

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    Last edited by RickBullottaPA; 11-27-2017 at 07:32 AM.

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    Some of the e- positions iterated above are mickey mouse in nature compared to the local socal MTB forum where eMTB riders seem to be somewhere in a category between drug dealers and child predators. These guys pat themselves on the back for excoriating e+ individuals or terrorizing e-MTB riders.

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    People fear they will go faster and faster I think and this one claims 46 mph top speed high powered sports revolution sport. That sacres me while be kids are riding the trails. Though you guys maybe responsible it only takes a few that aren't. And at 46 miles an hour someone could be badly hurt if not killed.

  91. #391
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    Quote Originally Posted by STAGER1 View Post
    People fear they will go faster and faster I think and this one claims 46 mph top speed high powered sports revolution sport. That sacres me while be kids are riding the trails. Though you guys maybe responsible it only takes a few that aren't. And at 46 miles an hour someone could be badly hurt if not killed.
    I have never been on a MUT where I can ride 46mph!! The trail will always dictate the speed.

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    Maybe not 46 in some tight trails but I can tell you when I ride if I was on a small dirt bike like a 125cc which is not as nible as a bike I'd scare the shit out of people mtb coming out of the turns up straight away hills etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    I have never been on a MUT where I can ride 46mph!! The trail will always dictate the speed.
    But they do exist. There are a number of them in San Diego that have long wide straights where speeds over 40 "could" be achieved.

    Just because you(speaking in general to everyone on this board) have never seen something where you ride, does not mean it is not happening or possible elsewhere.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RickBullottaPA View Post
    FYI, a 125 2 Stroke makes about 10,000-12,000 watts of power. A long, long way from the 250 watts of a Class 1 eBike or even the 750 watts of the more powerful ones.
    Closer to 20k watts.

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    It might be noted that the 46 mph bike referenced (there's one produced by M1Sporttechnik, a company that has yet to make much presence in the US) is legal on neither bike paths nor trails in (at least) CA, NC, SC, UT & TN). Additionally, in CA it must be licensed and insured.

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    Things are getting ďwayĒ blown out of proportion! 46mph ebike, fine. Itís like seeing Sasquatch. Does it exist? Maybe, how many sitings? 46 mph on any bike is road only. MUTís is bullshit. Period.. Now, Iím sure there is some fools on here that drink 5 hr. Energy every 2 hrs, but címon letís be realistic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    But they do exist. There are a number of them in San Diego that have long wide straights where speeds over 40 "could" be achieved.

    Just because you(speaking in general to everyone on this board) have never seen something where you ride, does not mean it is not happening or possible elsewhere.
    Listen, I donít doubt it, all Iím saying is that is not an example of Ebikes in general. Thereís always going to be that a** clown. He will get pressured off the trails. Weíve all self policed at one time or another. 😀 Thankfully I havenít seen clowns like that, although weíve all seen the Strava junkies on regular bicycles blowing over strollers so they can win a free beer at the bar! Wait, that could have been me! JK! Hope every brother on here had a great thanksgiving.

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