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  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by Linktung View Post
    Sure, but those agency's definition of motorized does not hinge on propulsion either, hence the ban on chainsaws in Wilderness.
    Wilderness rules carry a distinction between motorized equipment , motorized vehicles, motor boats and bicycles. (All are disallowed, but listed separately).

    Oh, and I've got limited patience for useless circular semantic games; use some common sense. Talking about Wilderness rules is pointless, as no bikes either with or without motors are allowed there anyway. Likewise, the whole 'if I tape an electric can-opener to my bike, that means it's motorized' is just flat out stupid. Let's try and keep the conversation somewhat within the bounds of reason. Thanks.
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  2. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    OK, great. You ride a manual power chainsaw through the woods? The subject I thought was e bikes? You're straying.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Osv7HUW7Dic

    Well, there's this. My primary mode of transport in the frozen Wilderness...before it got banned.
    I would advise not taking my advice.

  3. #203
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    Well this thread has veered off into complete ridiculousness.

  4. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryguy79 View Post
    Well this thread has veered off into complete ridiculousness.
    Hard to imagine.

  5. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by watermonkey View Post
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Osv7HUW7Dic

    Well, there's this. My primary mode of transport in the frozen Wilderness...before it got banned.
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  6. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by kpdemello View Post
    I could respond to that in a civilized way. Maybe we could even reach some sort of understanding. But instead, the responses I'm getting here are that I'm a narrow-minded elitist dink, and no one cares about my opinion. That sort of response does not encourage discussion in my opinion.
    Perceived "laziness" is not one of the many issues surrounding e-MTB trail access, so there is no incentive to reach an understanding with you.

  7. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by EricTheDood View Post
    Perceived "laziness" is not one of the many issues surrounding e-MTB trail access, so there is no incentive to reach an understanding with you.
    The jogger/hiker on the trail may disagree with you.

  8. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by EricTheDood View Post
    Perceived "laziness" is not one of the many issues surrounding e-MTB trail access, so there is no incentive to reach an understanding with you.
    By the same token, your desire to ride an e-bike on non-motorized trails is not something I really see a point in supporting, and my antipathy towards both your activity and your attitude makes me rather want to fight it. So there's that.

    Oh, and if all you got out of my posts is that I think your activity is "lazy" then you kind of missed a lot of the nuance about how I feel about mountain biking and getting out into nature in general. To be blunt, I don't think motorized vehicles of any kind belong in conservation land, parks, or wilderness areas.

  9. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lemonaid View Post
    The jogger/hiker on the trail may disagree with you.
    Maybe.

    But the equestrian won't.

  10. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by kpdemello View Post
    I think ebikers are lazy cheating bastards, but hey, it's your life, and if you're not hurting me or my trails, go ahead and be a lazy cheating bastard.
    Quote Originally Posted by kpdemello View Post
    you kind of missed a lot of the nuance about how I feel about mountain biking
    Can you not see how the "nuance" in your writing is heavily overshadowed by your previous statements?

    Backpedaling never works.

  11. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by EricTheDood View Post
    Perceived "laziness" is not one of the many issues surrounding e-MTB trail access, so there is no incentive to reach an understanding with you.
    This thread is not about access, it is about why eBikes are a touchy subject, and one of those is many people feel it is a form of "cheating" to use a motor to assist your pedaling. Don't cherry pick just a few of his posts, go back and read them all, he was directly addressing the audio recording linked in the first post.

    He was simply stating that he feels that way and knows many others that feel the same. Nothing wrong with that.

    I have ridden eBikes and they are fun, but I would never get one because I don't want to cheat myself. I personally want to earn that climb with power from my own body. I ride with others that feel the same way. I have nothing against those who choose differently from me, but if asked why I would not buy an eBike, that is my answer. Also they cost too much.
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  12. #212
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    I don't care personally how you have your fun. But I agree that there is a general perception that e-bikes are "lazy" (both among cyclists and the general public) and that is a significant hurdle to overcome, fair or not.

    You have to remember that mountain bikes in general aren't super popular with other trail users. We're tolerated at best in most places on MUTs. Add the motor, add (potentially, depending on the rider) more speed, add the perception of laziness, and you've got a recipe for hostility.

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  13. #213
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    Damn.

    I'll just continue mountain biking on trails designated for human or equestrian power only.

    I'll make sure to document the first time I see an ebiker come out to an access meeting or a trail work day. How long have these things been out? Decades? Yep. I've still never seen one. I've run out of fingers counting the times I've caught ebikers poaching trails. This is why they're hated around here.

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  14. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    You have to remember that mountain bikes in general aren't super popular with other trail users. We're tolerated at best in most places on MUTs. Add the motor, add (potentially, depending on the rider) more speed, add the perception of laziness, and you've got a recipe for hostility.

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    I couldn't agree more.

  15. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silentfoe View Post
    Damn.

    I'll just continue mountain biking on trails designated for human or equestrian power only.

    I'll make sure to document the first time I see an ebiker come out to an access meeting or a trail work day. How long have these things been out? Decades? Yep. I've still never seen one. I've run out of fingers counting the times I've caught ebikers poaching trails. This is why they're hated around here.

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    As long as ebikes and mountain bikes remain completely different users I'm fine with them. It would be interesting to see what happens when ebikers start working for the trail access they feel so entitled to and how many will actually show up to those access meeting and donate their time and money on trail work and maintenance, and participate in their local advocacy groups.

  16. #216
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    I've worked on trails and did the rest for 30+ years, so paid my dues, think e-bikes should be accepted on their own merit and don't give a rats ass what the "purists" think the 10% of the time I'm legally riding my e-bike. This guy called me and my wife (who has ridden an e-bike off road fewer than five times out of thousands of rides) lazy bastards. Accordingly, I have nothing but disgust and contempt for him and am glad we'll never be in the same camp.

  17. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by EricTheDood View Post
    Can you not see how the "nuance" in your writing is heavily overshadowed by your previous statements?

    Backpedaling never works.
    LOL you edited out the majority of that post and cherry picked the part that in all honesty was sort of tongue in cheek. Its like you're trying to be offended.

    Quote Originally Posted by fos'l View Post
    This guy called me and my wife (who has ridden an e-bike off road fewer than five times out of thousands of rides) lazy bastards. Accordingly, I have nothing but disgust and contempt for him and am glad we'll never be in the same camp.
    Yo dude I don't know you or your wife. Why is this so personal for you? I'm just some guy on the internet talking about ebikes.

  18. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by kpdemello View Post
    Yo dude I don't know you or your wife. Why is this so personal for you? I'm just some guy on the internet talking about ebikes.
    Just some guy on the internet disparaging e-bikers.

    You already called him and his wife lazy cheaters that don't have your respect because they ride ebikes. I suspect that that has something to do with his irritation.

  19. #219
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    Oh good heavens how will he or his wife ever survive this savage event. It's too bad both he and you were tragically born without a sense of humor.

  20. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by kpdemello View Post
    Oh good heavens how will he or his wife ever survive this savage event. It's too bad both he and you were tragically born without a sense of humor.
    Oh! Now I get it...when you labeled e-bikers as lazy cheaters that you donít respect, you were just just joking right?

  21. #221
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    Except in your case. I totally meant it in your case.

  22. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by fos'l View Post
    ... think e-bikes should be accepted on their own merit
    Yep. Starting from scratch and not pretending to be bicycles or piggy backing on the efforts of other trail users before them.


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  23. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silentfoe View Post
    Yep. Starting from scratch and not pretending to be bicycles or piggy backing on the efforts of other trail users before them.


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    Absolutely, and I've said that for a long time.

  24. #224
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    There is no justification for breaking the law. Even if you built every trail in your community, it is still illegal to ride a motorized vehicle on a non motorized trail. Trail builders donít t make the rules, we build the trails.

  25. #225
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    If you're referring to my comment, why don't you learn to read? I emphasized that one should ride where it's legal in a previous post, and maintain that frequently.

  26. #226
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silentfoe View Post
    Yep. Starting from scratch and not pretending to be bicycles or piggy backing on the efforts of other trail users before them.


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    I am confused, isn't this exactly what MTBs did in the beginning? Piggy-back on the trails constructed by hikers and equestrians? First by poaching and then by agitating for legal access, expanding that legal access and then building MUTs for everyone to use ONCE THEY WERE ALLOWED TO PARTICIPATE LEGALLY.

    With legal access Outlaws become Good Citizens and poachers can become trail crews by having skin in the game. So why should Class 1s be any different than the MTBs that so upset folks back at the birth of this sport?

  27. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by WoodlandHills View Post
    I am confused, isn't this exactly what MTBs did in the beginning? Piggy-back on the trails constructed by hikers and equestrians? First by poaching and then by agitating for legal access, expanding that legal access and then building MUTs for everyone to use......
    You're right. And? We have now been fighting an access battle for 40 years. We have a lot of enemies but we've made big strides. In some places we have a very tenuous hold on access. We aren't going to lose that by letting ebikes ruin it all by making the same mistakes the original mountain bikers did.

    Just because it happened in the past, doesn't make it ok now. Your point holds no water.

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  28. #228
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silentfoe View Post
    You're right. And? We have now been fighting an access battle for 40 years. We have a lot of enemies but we've made big strides. In some places we have a very tenuous hold on access. We aren't going to lose that by letting ebikes ruin it all by making the same mistakes the original mountain bikers did.

    Just because it happened in the past, doesn't make it ok now. Your point holds no water.

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    That sounds a lot like "we got ours, but now the door is shut to anyone else" and "don't do what sucessfuly worked for us in the past"...........

  29. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by WoodlandHills View Post
    That sounds a lot like "we got ours, but now the door is shut to anyone else" and "don't do what sucessfuly worked for us in the past"...........
    Yep. Pretty much.

    Nothing wroong with that. This isn't a civil rights issue. It's trail access.

    Adding a motorized vehicle that looks like a mountain bike will jeapordize our access.

    There's a reason the Sierra Club has already endorsed IMBAs latest ebike statement. Because now they can tell land managers that when they allow mountain bikes, they are allowing motorized vehicles.

    I won't apologize for telling ebikers to pave their own way forward. And neither does any other mouubtain biker.

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  30. #230
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    Modern mountain bike access in fact did not come about because of poaching. Rather the opposite. People think that Marin is the model (bikes quickly banned, then poaching) but that ludicrous - there's basically no trail access in the Bay Area for bikes.

    In all the places where you can actually ride a mountain bike legally, there was basically never any significant poaching. And what there was didn't result in legal trail access. Instead, bikes started showing up on trails when there weren't *any rules at all about them* (so it wasn't "poaching") and then various negotiations resulted in formal/legal access.

    The place where the most poaching happened (Marin) is now the place you can't ride a mountain bike. Coincidence?

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  31. #231
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    I am still confused by eBike opponent's positions.

    1. "It has a motor". So does a bike with Di2 shifting.

    2. "They go too fast." How fast *any* bicycle goes depends 100% on the rider. Period. If you want to argue speed capability, no one on earth would choose a Class 1 ebike over a good Enduro bike on a downhill. If we are going to ban bikes based on the capability of the bike to go a certain speed, then let's all go back to riding full rigid bikes with 26x1.9" tires to save ourselves and other trail users. Or, just establish speed limits.

    3. eBikes tear up trails. Pure bullshit. I'm not even going to bother with this one.

    Beyond those arguments, it is all about fear.

    Another confusing argument: eBikes are fine on paved bike paths, but not on trails. WTF? I can see zero logic behind that argument. Is the issue that danger to other trail users is higher on a trail than a paved bike path? I disagree. A class 1 ebike is going *slower* overall on a trail than it is on a paved path. If you are against ebikes on the trail, for "safety" reasons, then it is illogical to be in favor of them on a paved multi-use trail, just like it is illogical to be in favor of *any* bicycle on a paved multi-use trail. How can "normal" bicycles co-exist with walkers, runners, baby strollers and tottering drunks on a paved path? Oh, it is all about riders taking personal responsibility to share the trail safely. I get it. Just like MTBs on a paved path. Just like an ebike on a paved path, or a dirt trail.

    It is all about the the *rider* of the bike, not the bike itself. If a rider is a douche on an MTB, they will probably be a douche on an ebike, in a car, hiking on a trail, in line at the bar, everywhere. A respectful MTB rider or road rider will be respectful on an ebike as well. Having a few hundred watts of pedal assist doesn't change the rider.

  32. #232
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    Dude, I agree with you except #1. Di2 is not an ebike. Tools are gonna be tools. I know Iím still a tool no matter what I ride!
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  33. #233
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    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    A respectful MTB rider or road rider will be respectful on an ebike as well. Having a few hundred watts of pedal assist doesn't change the rider.
    Sure, and by this logic we should allow any and all vehicles on any trail.

    I think we all know that won't work.

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  34. #234
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    More non ebikers on this thread than ebikers! Can NON Ebikers understand this simple point that some mtbrs are also ebikers? Yíall act like whoever owns an ebike has no fó-g clue about the cycling scene. Thatís how narrow minded some people are.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    More non ebikers on this thread than ebikers! Can NON Ebikers understand this simple point that some mtbrs are also ebikers? Yíall act like whoever owns an ebike has no fó-g clue about the cycling scene. Thatís how narrow minded some people are.
    Maybe because this an ebike forum on a mounting biking site when in actuality they are two different activities. And some ebikers don't understand this.

  36. #236
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lemonaid View Post
    Maybe because this an ebike forum on a mounting biking site when in actuality they are two different activities. And some ebikers don't understand this.
    Hmm, hold handlebars, sit on seat and pedal? Two different activities hardly. How much time have you spent on an ebike?
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  37. #237
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    Hmm, hold handlebars, sit on seat and pedal? Two different activities hardly. How much time have you spent on an ebike?
    Actually, forget it- idc.
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    I acknowlege that this is a touchy subject.
    I ride a class 1 in Europe where they are the same as regular MTBs and allowed anywhere a regular MTB is allowed but.... I wouldn't want this permission extended to other classes of ebikes where you don't have to pedal.
    For me an ebike overcomes the climbs I hate and allows me to hurtle downhill in exactly the manner I would on a normal bike on the same trails as a normal MTB. With the exception of the climbs most of my riding on an ebike merely leaves me enough energy to really rage it on the downhill rather than being bolloxed by the climb to the start.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hobbit View Post
    I acknowlege that this is a touchy subject.
    I ride a class 1 in Europe where they are the same as regular MTBs and allowed anywhere a regular MTB is allowed but.... I wouldn't want this permission extended to other classes of ebikes where you don't have to pedal.
    For me an ebike overcomes the climbs I hate and allows me to hurtle downhill in exactly the manner I would on a normal bike on the same trails as a normal MTB. With the exception of the climbs most of my riding on an ebike merely leaves me enough energy to really rage it on the downhill rather than being bolloxed by the climb to the start.
    Can you explain how a throttled class 2 would change this scenario? You do understand that one can still pedal while using a throttle for assistance?

  40. #240
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    Quote Originally Posted by hobbit View Post
    I ride a class 1 in Europe where they are the same as regular MTBs and allowed anywhere a regular MTB is allowed but.... I wouldn't want this permission extended to other classes of ebikes where you don't have to pedal.
    I suspect that, ultimately, that's the way it will end up in the US too as the negligible difference in trail impact between class 1 e-bikes and conventional mountain bikes becomes increasingly apparent. The standard European classification will likely become more prevalent in the US, and the hysterical fear of class 1 e-bikes' effect on trails and trail access will likely prove to be unfounded. It's a waiting game.

  41. #241
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    More non ebikers on this thread than ebikers! Can NON Ebikers understand this simple point that some mtbrs are also ebikers? Yíall act like whoever owns an ebike has no fó-g clue about the cycling scene. Thatís how narrow minded some people are.
    I agree on some counts but conversely electric bike enthusiasts should realize that for some peoples concerns about them, mine for one, experience with riding one is irrelevant, and failing to understand that is equally narrow minded.
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  42. #242
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    I agree on some counts but conversely electric bike enthusiasts should realize that for some peoples concerns about them, mine for one, experience with riding one is irrelevant, and failing to understand that is equally narrow minded.
    The ONLY legit concern is trail access period. Everything else is BS.
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  43. #243
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    The ONLY legit concern is trail access period. Everything else is BS.
    Trail access for who?
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  44. #244
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Trail access for who?
    The risk of trails being closed due to Ebikes. Or mtb trails open to Ebikes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    The risk of trails being closed due to Ebikes. Or mtb trails open to Ebikes.
    That seems a little narrow minded to me.
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  46. #246
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silentfoe View Post
    Yep. Pretty much.

    Nothing wroong with that. This isn't a civil rights issue. It's trail access.

    Adding a motorized vehicle that looks like a mountain bike will jeapordize our access.

    There's a reason the Sierra Club has already endorsed IMBAs latest ebike statement. Because now they can tell land managers that when they allow mountain bikes, they are allowing motorized vehicles.

    I won't apologize for telling ebikers to pave their own way forward. And neither does any other mouubtain biker.

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    Again itís about access and all the years mt bikers have had to work to gain access and ebikes need to run the same issues mt bikes have had.


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    IMO, there is a difference where I reside, Orange County, CA. When I started riding MTB in the early 80's I just went to the local parks ASSUMING it was allowed (must have been since there were no rules against it, AFAIK). Later, (probably when there were a significant number of bikes) we had meetings about access that seemed to be productive and there is little, if any, conflict today. e-MTB's are prohibited in state and county parks (AFAIK, physically challenged riders are permitted), so it will be difficult or impossible to gain access especially with the vocal MTB community fighting it here. A possible solution may be to ask the Rangers to allow "us" to build separate trails in some(a) parks, but I doubt that will be allowed. Also the e-community is still too small to mount much of an effort.

  48. #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    That seems a little narrow minded to me.
    Sorry couldnít help you out, but idc!
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  49. #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    Sorry couldnít help you out, but idc!

    I am crushed but I understand, it's difficult to explain a bs post.
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  50. #250
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    Actually, it wasnít a bullshit post. Every non ebiker comes up with the usual arguments about Ebikes, and the only one that carries weight is trail access, not trail damage, laziness etc. Funny, I remember climbing Mt Tam 24ish years ago on a downhill Foes ďweasel.Ē Probably same weight as my Levo!
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  51. #251
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    Actually, it wasnít a bullshit post.
    That's one persons opinion. I'm not worried about trail damage or laziness either, my concern regarding them carries weight for me though and I'm not the only one. So your post is wrong, and therefore bs.
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  52. #252
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    How can it be wrong? An ebiker that has trail access/loss concerns? Iím not following you, have you been inhaling too much JB weld?!!
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    My bad - got no issue with class 2 either.

  54. #254
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    have you been inhaling too much JB weld?!!
    Could be, I thought you were the one that was high but those damn flashbacks dog me sometimes. I guess I misunderstood you, now that I've reconsidered I think everyone's concern that isn't your only concern is total bs, mine especially.
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  55. #255
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Could be, I thought you were the one that was high but those damn flashbacks dog me sometimes. I guess I misunderstood you, now that I've reconsidered I think everyone's concern that isn't your only concern is total bs, mine especially.
    Honey..., go grab my bong! Iím royally confused now. I just got done figuring out how much wood a woodchuck could chuck, if a woodchuck could chuck wood, then you go and hit me with this.. Too much!
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  56. #256
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    Mr Moderator, please be appropriate and respectful, you are supposed to model good behavior. If you quote the content you are criticizing, it helps with context. There are dozens of posters to this thread, no one knows who you are talking to...

    Quote Originally Posted by fos'l View Post
    If you're referring to my comment, why don't you learn to read? I emphasized that one should ride where it's legal in a previous post, and maintain that frequently.

  57. #257
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nurse Ben View Post
    There is no justification for breaking the law. Even if you built every trail in your community, it is still illegal to ride a motorized vehicle on a non motorized trail. Trail builders donít t make the rules, we build the trails.
    Hope this helps. Mt Poster's comment was offered next after my post. As I stated, if it pertains to me, the poster needs to read what I've written previously, namely that I don't support riding where it's prohibited. I don't think it takes a genius to figure that out Mr Poster. If you weren't referring to me, I wasn't referring to you. Only you know for sure, but I have my suspicions. Maybe Mr Poster should have identified what his comment was in reference to, or if it was a random thought that he regurgitated.

  58. #258
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    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    I am still confused by eBike opponent's positions.

    1. "It has a motor". So does a bike with Di2 shifting.
    This is a specious argument as the motor is not used to propel the bike. In any case, I imagine these electronic shifters are present in an incredibly small percentage of actual MTBs on the trails, and if they are banned from non-motorized trails I think most MTBers would be perfectly fine with that. I know I would, as I don't plan to use one of them ever.

    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    2. "They go too fast." How fast *any* bicycle goes depends 100% on the rider. Period.
    Well therein lies the problem. With an e-bike, it depends on the motor. Class 1 can only get up to a certain speed, aparently, but class 2 and 3 and beyond allow them to go much faster with the same rider. So with an ebike, how fast the bicycle goes depends on the MOTOR, which is why it should be banned from non-motorized trails.

    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    3. eBikes tear up trails. Pure bullshit.
    Based on what evidence? But even if you're right, they still have a motor. For a whole host of reasons, motors don't belong on non-motorized trails.

    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    It is all about the the *rider* of the bike, not the bike itself. If a rider is a douche on an MTB, they will probably be a douche on an ebike, in a car, hiking on a trail, in line at the bar, everywhere. A respectful MTB rider or road rider will be respectful on an ebike as well. Having a few hundred watts of pedal assist doesn't change the rider.
    By the same logic, why can't ATVers or motocross bikers be allowed on non-motorized trails so long as they are respectful, stay under a certain speed or install limiters on their machines? If it's all about the rider, why not let everything on non-motorized trails?

    To me it's two things: 1) it's about capability, and ebikes have the capability to go much faster with much more power than unpowered bikes; and 2) it's about a philosophy/mindset/ideal that wilderness areas should stay primitive and not be invaded by motors.

    #2 is one of the biggest reasons MTBs faced such a hard road, because people saw (and many still see) them as disruptive machines that didn't belong in the wilderness. MTBers were able to establish that their use of these human powered machines was not inconsistent with the concept of leaving wilderness areas primitive. A big reason behind that is that they are fully human powered, and really are relatively simple machines. To me, that's a much harder argument with ebikes, which use a motor for propulsion.

    I hope perhaps I have helped clear up some of your confusion.

  59. #259
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    Quote Originally Posted by kpdemello View Post
    This is a specious argument as the motor is not used to propel the bike. In any case, I imagine these electronic shifters are present in an incredibly small percentage of actual MTBs on the trails, and if they are banned from non-motorized trails I think most MTBers would be perfectly fine with that. I know I would, as I don't plan to use one of them ever.



    Well therein lies the problem. With an e-bike, it depends on the motor. Class 1 can only get up to a certain speed, aparently, but class 2 and 3 and beyond allow them to go much faster with the same rider. So with an ebike, how fast the bicycle goes depends on the MOTOR, which is why it should be banned from non-motorized trails.



    Based on what evidence? But even if you're right, they still have a motor. For a whole host of reasons, motors don't belong on non-motorized trails.



    By the same logic, why can't ATVers or motocross bikers be allowed on non-motorized trails so long as they are respectful, stay under a certain speed or install limiters on their machines? If it's all about the rider, why not let everything on non-motorized trails?

    To me it's two things: 1) it's about capability, and ebikes have the capability to go much faster with much more power than unpowered bikes; and 2) it's about a philosophy/mindset/ideal that wilderness areas should stay primitive and not be invaded by motors.

    #2 is one of the biggest reasons MTBs faced such a hard road, because people saw (and many still see) them as disruptive machines that didn't belong in the wilderness. MTBers were able to establish that their use of these human powered machines was not inconsistent with the concept of leaving wilderness areas primitive. A big reason behind that is that they are fully human powered, and really are relatively simple machines. To me, that's a much harder argument with ebikes, which use a motor for propulsion.

    I hope perhaps I have helped clear up some of your confusion.
    I generally agree with your post; I'm of the #2 philosophy/mindset. "Wildlands" is perhaps a better descriptor; "wilderness" and "Wilderness" can be 2 separate things. The capital "W" denotes a legal designation. I'm OK with e-bikes on some wilderness trails, not OK with e-bikes on any Wilderness trails.

    A minor quibble; in most areas (USA anyway) Classes 1 and 2 share the same power/speed restrictions---Class 2 having throttles while Class 1 is pure pedelec. Class 3 has the higher top speed limit.
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  60. #260
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    Quote Originally Posted by fos'l View Post
    Hope this helps. Mt Poster's comment was offered next after my post. As I stated, if it pertains to me, the poster needs to read what I've written previously, namely that I don't support riding where it's prohibited. I don't think it takes a genius to figure that out Mr Poster. If you weren't referring to me, I wasn't referring to you. Only you know for sure, but I have my suspicions. Maybe Mr Poster should have identified what his comment was in reference to, or if it was a random thought that he regurgitated.
    Fos'l, just use the "reply with quote" button! You confused *everyone* (me included).

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  61. #261
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    "Why Are E-Bikes Such a Touchy Subject in the U.S.?"

    Everything is a touchy subject. Why not E-bikes?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moe Ped View Post
    I generally agree with your post; I'm of the #2 philosophy/mindset. "Wildlands" is perhaps a better descriptor; "wilderness" and "Wilderness" can be 2 separate things. The capital "W" denotes a legal designation. I'm OK with e-bikes on some wilderness trails, not OK with e-bikes on any Wilderness trails.
    Agreed the term wilderness can be confusing in these discussions; I should have used wildlands or even just "non-motorized trails" to be less confusing.

  63. #263
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    My prediction: as eBikes get better, lighter, less expensive, and hard to differentiate from pedal only bikes, land mangers will have no choice but to consider banning all bikes to keep eBikes off trails and MUT.

    I assume one of the other replies said something similar, but no way did I read any but the first few replies.

  64. #264
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    Quote Originally Posted by kpdemello View Post
    This is a specious argument as the motor is not used to propel the bike. In any case, I imagine these electronic shifters are present in an incredibly small percentage of actual MTBs on the trails, and if they are banned from non-motorized trails I think most MTBers would be perfectly fine with that. I know I would, as I don't plan to use one of them ever.



    Well therein lies the problem. With an e-bike, it depends on the motor. Class 1 can only get up to a certain speed, aparently, but class 2 and 3 and beyond allow them to go much faster with the same rider. So with an ebike, how fast the bicycle goes depends on the MOTOR, which is why it should be banned from non-motorized trails.



    Based on what evidence? But even if you're right, they still have a motor. For a whole host of reasons, motors don't belong on non-motorized trails.



    By the same logic, why can't ATVers or motocross bikers be allowed on non-motorized trails so long as they are respectful, stay under a certain speed or install limiters on their machines? If it's all about the rider, why not let everything on non-motorized trails?

    To me it's two things: 1) it's about capability, and ebikes have the capability to go much faster with much more power than unpowered bikes; and 2) it's about a philosophy/mindset/ideal that wilderness areas should stay primitive and not be invaded by motors.

    #2 is one of the biggest reasons MTBs faced such a hard road, because people saw (and many still see) them as disruptive machines that didn't belong in the wilderness. MTBers were able to establish that their use of these human powered machines was not inconsistent with the concept of leaving wilderness areas primitive. A big reason behind that is that they are fully human powered, and really are relatively simple machines. To me, that's a much harder argument with ebikes, which use a motor for propulsion.

    I hope perhaps I have helped clear up some of your confusion.
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  65. #265
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    Fos'l, just use the "reply with quote" button! You confused *everyone* (me included).

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    Sorry, wasn't trying to obfuscate; I'll be more diligent in the future.
    Last edited by fos'l; 11-20-2017 at 12:48 PM.

  66. #266
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raymo853 View Post
    My prediction: as eBikes get better, lighter, less expensive, and hard to differentiate from pedal only bikes, land mangers will have no choice but to consider banning all bikes to keep eBikes off trails and MUT.
    .
    Or....as eBikes get better, lighter, less expensive, and hard to differentiate from pedal only bikes, and fail to demonstrate trail damage, land mangers will shrug and allow class 1 e-bikes on all of their natural surface trails.

  67. #267
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    [QUOTE=MSU Alum;13425565]"Why Are E-Bikes Such a Touchy Subject in the U.S.?"

    Everything is a touchy subject. Why not E-bikes?[/QUOT With the local Mt bike Club they are but not with other users of a public trail like hikers and horse ppl and other Mt bikers even park rangers and land mangers can be open to e bike usage . With the support of my local park manger and the local Mt bike club president e bikes have been allowed on our trails and its been a positive experience for all of the park users .

  68. #268
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    The local trails I ride have a 15mph speed limit, it is actually pretty common in California.

    I have not seen any rangers enforcing it however.
    I have, at Skeggs. The rangers sometimes park along downhills that connect to popular single track trail heads. However, it is not common to see.

  69. #269
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuyuna View Post
    Or....as eBikes get better, lighter, less expensive, and hard to differentiate from pedal only bikes, and fail to demonstrate trail damage, land mangers will shrug and allow class 1 e-bikes on all of their natural surface trails.
    First, how will 2,000 Watt eBikes not cause trail damage? I know torque is not the only source of trail damage, but it still a source.

    Second, it will not be just trail damage as a problem, but the speeds. Having 1,000 Watt eBikes going by hikers at 40 mph will make it necessary to ban eBikes.


    I don't want to go on with more reasons I see, but I strongly suspect the growth of eBikes will end up getting all bikes banned from 30% of the trails now open to them.

  70. #270
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raymo853 View Post
    My prediction: as eBikes get better, lighter, less expensive, and hard to differentiate from pedal only bikes, land mangers will have no choice but to consider banning all bikes to keep eBikes off trails and MUT.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cuyuna View Post
    Or....as eBikes get better, lighter, less expensive, and hard to differentiate from pedal only bikes, and fail to demonstrate trail damage, land mangers will shrug and allow class 1 e-bikes on all of their natural surface trails.
    These 2 quotes basically sum up the fears of some and the desires of others.

    What no one on this board can tell for certain is which outcome will be the result.
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  71. #271
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raymo853 View Post
    First, how will 2,000 Watt eBikes not cause trail damage? I know torque is not the only source of trail damage, but it still a source.

    Second, it will not be just trail damage as a problem, but the speeds. Having 1,000 Watt eBikes going by hikers at 40 mph will make it necessary to ban eBikes.


    I don't want to go on with more reasons I see, but I strongly suspect the growth of eBikes will end up getting all bikes banned from 30% of the trails now open to them.
    Class 1 e-bikes. I don't want electric motorcycles or other such throttled vehicles on on natural surface trails either.

  72. #272
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    These 2 quotes basically sum up the fears of some and the desires of others.

    What no one on this board can tell for certain is which outcome will be the result.
    If "land managers" shrug and allow class 1 e-MTBs on their natural surface trails then access for conventional MTBs is no longer in jeopardy. So...what's the problem?

  73. #273
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuyuna View Post
    Class 1 e-bikes. I don't want electric motorcycles or other such throttled vehicles on on natural surface trails either.
    Class 1, Class 2 , Class B4x/J may be great in the industry regulations but will not be understandable nor enforceable.

  74. #274
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raymo853 View Post
    My prediction: as eBikes get better, lighter, less expensive, and hard to differentiate from pedal only bikes, land mangers will have no choice but to consider banning all bikes to keep eBikes off trails and MUT.

    I assume one of the other replies said something similar, but no way did I read any but the first few replies.
    I pretty much echoed the same sentiment in an earlier post somewhere.

  75. #275
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuyuna View Post
    Or....as eBikes get better, lighter, less expensive, and hard to differentiate from pedal only bikes, and fail to demonstrate trail damage, land mangers will shrug and allow class 1 e-bikes on all of their natural surface trails.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cuyuna View Post
    If "land managers" shrug and allow class 1 e-MTBs on their natural surface trails then access for conventional MTBs is no longer in jeopardy. So...what's the problem?
    This question assumes the only opposition to to ebikes comes from mountain bikers. The "problem" is other users aside from bikers. Ask an average jogger, hiker, equestrian what they think. Ebikes on trails isn't about just getting access to mountain bike trails, it's about getting access to =>**SHARED**<= trails. And many of those trails already have restrictions that ban motorized vehicles. What will end up happening if mountain bikes and ebikes get grouped into one big category of users is the other interests will have good cause to ban all bikes, not just ebikes.

    And repeating what someone else said earlier. Some wilderness areas ban motorized vehicles to keep the areas and natural and reduce the effects of technology on the landscape. Mountain bikes were reluctantly allowed in those areas because they required HUMAN power to operate even though they are mechanical in nature. You take the HUMAN power out of the equation you just have another vehicle.

  76. #276
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lemonaid View Post
    This question assumes the only opposition to to ebikes comes from mountain bikers. The "problem" is other users aside from bikers. Ask an average jogger, hiker, equestrian what they think. Ebikes on trails isn't about just getting access to mountain bike trails, it's about getting access to =>**SHARED**<= trails. And many of those trails already have restrictions that ban motorized vehicles. What will end up happening if mountain bikes and ebikes get grouped into one big category of users is the other interests will have good cause to ban all bikes, not just ebikes.

    And repeating what someone else said earlier. Some wilderness areas ban motorized vehicles to keep the areas and natural and reduce the effects of technology on the landscape. Mountain bikes were reluctantly allowed in those areas because they required HUMAN power to operate even though they are mechanical in nature. You take the HUMAN power out of the equation you just have another vehicle.
    As we've seen in an increasing number of places, it's a matter of re-defining "motor vehicle", thus eliminating that disqualification.

    As the e-bike concept evolves, attitudes will evolve also. They already are in many places, positive or negative. Time will tell. Early in the game yet.

  77. #277
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuyuna View Post
    Class 1 e-bikes. I don't want electric motorcycles or other such throttled vehicles on on natural surface trails either.
    On paper, there are classes. Once that door is open, anything goes. How to tell by looking at them? You can't. Sure, some will just buy and ride. Controller over rides and mods are already out there. Fake stickers, an extra battery in the backpack etc.

  78. #278
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    Yeah, if you think this is a rough crowd, try the silver-hair squad at a city council meeting. Mountain bikes *without* motors are just barely tolerated in lots of places. Add a motor (and those grannies will google up some marketing videos of dudes in fullfaces shredding on Kenovos to show at the meeting) and it's game over instantly.

    -Walt

  79. #279
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    Yeah, if you think this is a rough crowd, try the silver-hair squad at a city council meeting. Mountain bikes *without* motors are just barely tolerated in lots of places. Add a motor (and those grannies will google up some marketing videos of dudes in fullfaces shredding on Kenovos to show at the meeting) and it's game over instantly.

    -Walt
    Yup.

    If e-bikes were being pushed a number of years ago the way they are now back when we were trying to get MTB trails approved locally, we would've been forced to answer how we would keep them off the trails and lacking a good answer, there's no way we would've gotten some of the permissions we have now.
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  80. #280
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuyuna View Post
    If "land managers" shrug and allow class 1 e-MTBs on their natural surface trails then access for conventional MTBs is no longer in jeopardy. So...what's the problem?
    I never said that would be a problem. I am not sure why you think I had a problem with that statement.

    What I said is you and the others who assume land managers WILL shrug and let them be, cannot actually say for a certainty that IS what will happen.

    The same goes for those who assume land managers WILL NOT let them be and RATHER WILL ban them and all bikes. That also cannot be said with certainty to happen.

    As I have said many times on this board, the future is uncertain. Those who want eBike Access on their local trails need to get out there, join or form an eBike advocacy group and get to advocating.

    Just hoping that land managers will accept them because you personally think they are no different from a pedal only driven bike is not going to be the answer for every riding area. Just thinking land managers will accept them because a bunch of people buy them and start riding them also it not a plan to action. If that was the case MTB's would be allowed everywhere hikers and Horseback riders are allowed.... and that most certainly is not the case.

    I personally have no problem with eBikes, I have ridden them and seen them on my local trails. But I am one person, and my one opinion means very little if it is drowned out by the HOH members who tend to be the most vocal and active people to show up at City Council meetings and other places where government decisions are made.
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  81. #281
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    Yup, and mine was clearly general and not pointed at any one, whereas you apparently got butt hurt about a post you thought was pointed at you.

    Youíre a moderator, you are expected to do better, not bait, not troll, and not respond personally.

    Quote Originally Posted by fos'l View Post
    Hope this helps. Mt Poster's comment was offered next after my post. As I stated, if it pertains to me, the poster needs to read what I've written previously, namely that I don't support riding where it's prohibited. I don't think it takes a genius to figure that out Mr Poster. If you weren't referring to me, I wasn't referring to you. Only you know for sure, but I have my suspicions. Maybe Mr Poster should have identified what his comment was in reference to, or if it was a random thought that he regurgitated.

  82. #282
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    Quote Originally Posted by fos'l View Post
    IMO, there is a difference where I reside, Orange County, CA. .....e-MTB's are prohibited in state and county parks (AFAIK, physically challenged riders are permitted)...
    You sure about that?

  83. #283
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nurse Ben View Post
    Yup, and mine was clearly general and not pointed at any one, whereas you apparently got butt hurt about a post you thought was pointed at you.

    Youíre a moderator, you are expected to do better, not bait, not troll, and not respond personally.
    I stand by my comments. Complain to the upper echelon if you're unhappy.

  84. #284
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    Quote Originally Posted by fos'l View Post
    I stand by my comments. Complain to the upper echelon if you're unhappy.
    it figures, do and say as you please with lack of responsibility or ownership...lame.

  85. #285
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    Quote Originally Posted by AGarcia View Post
    You sure about that?
    About which comment? I've asked Rangers at both County and State Parks who have stated that e-MTB's are prohibited. I've asked at two parks about physically challenged riders and they were allowed at that time (about six months ago). Sad thing is that Pt Magu and the Santa Monica mountain areas have changed their stance on e-MTB's and, apparently, allow them in the "inner" park roads now, but not on the trails.There may be some legal mumbo jumbo that I'm not aware of, and don't plan to pursue. Little bit moot right now anyway since the three parks closest to my residence have been closed by the recent fires.

  86. #286
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    Quote Originally Posted by fos'l View Post
    There may be some legal mumbo jumbo that I'm not aware of...


    You mentioned OC, so I presumed we were talking about County and State Parks in the OC area, like Santiago Oaks, Aliso & Wood Canyon, Chino Hills... places like that.

  87. #287
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    Quote Originally Posted by nvphatty View Post
    it figures, do and say as you please with lack of responsibility or ownership...lame.
    Dude, give negative rep again, idc, but I gotta say you are the ultimate troll in this forum.
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  88. #288
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    Yeah, if you think this is a rough crowd, try the silver-hair squad at a city council meeting. Mountain bikes *without* motors are just barely tolerated in lots of places. Add a motor (and those grannies will google up some marketing videos of dudes in fullfaces shredding on Kenovos to show at the meeting) and it's game over instantly.

    -Walt
    Or you could go over to the retirement community with a couple of 250w trikes and cruisers and let them ride them around for an afternoon. Everyone who has ever ridden an ebike has said they were addictive and puts huge smiles on first time riders. Of course, you may have to start sharing the trails with silver-haired ebikers if that happened......

  89. #289
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    Quote Originally Posted by nvphatty View Post
    it figures, do and say as you please with lack of responsibility or ownership...lame.
    Cry about it.
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  90. #290
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    Quote Originally Posted by WoodlandHills View Post
    Or you could go over to the retirement community with a couple of 250w trikes and cruisers and let them ride them around for an afternoon. Everyone who has ever ridden an ebike has said they were addictive and puts huge smiles on first time riders. Of course, you may have to start sharing the trails with silver-haired ebikers if that happened......
    Are you talking about having elderly people try out eBikes for riding on the street and paved bike paths, or having them try out full suspension eMTB's designed for riding on Dirt trails?

    The 2 things are not equal at all.
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  91. #291
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    I'm not gonna complain about you, you make your own bed.

    But if you want positive interactions with the other members AND you are a moderator, you might want to choose your battles and pick your words more carefully.

    Not caring only works when it's not about interacting with others.

    Quote Originally Posted by fos'l View Post
    I stand by my comments. Complain to the upper echelon if you're unhappy.

  92. #292
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    Quote Originally Posted by WoodlandHills View Post
    Or you could go over to the retirement community with a couple of 250w trikes and cruisers and let them ride them around for an afternoon. Everyone who has ever ridden an ebike has said they were addictive and puts huge smiles on first time riders. Of course, you may have to start sharing the trails with silver-haired ebikers if that happened......
    Um, the people at these meetings complaining about "those extreme mountain bikers" are not *ever* going to be convinced that e-bikes belong on trails. Trust me. Remember, please, that they would strongly prefer *no bikes on trails at all*. Sometimes they get their way.

    You certainly could try to get them interested in riding around town (the standard behavior is to drive a large SUV, then complain that a new trail will have terrible effects on nature/wildlife), but that would have zero effect on their stance on wheels on dirt trails.

    I have spent the better part of 2 decades working on this sort of stuff, and I assure you that you will face much more hostility to e-mtb IRL than you do here.

    -Walt

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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    Are you talking about having elderly people try out eBikes for riding on the street and paved bike paths, or having them try out full suspension eMTB's designed for riding on Dirt trails?

    The 2 things are not equal at all.
    +1 seems to be a lot of confusion on what whole "ebikes on trials" issue is about. Ebikes on pavement is virtually a non issue except when speed is involved and zero issue regarding access rights.

  94. #294
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    Quote Originally Posted by nvphatty View Post
    deleting posts of members simply because you didn't care for them ?? is this really what MTBR has become??
    If you really must know, I deleted most of your posts in this thread. You constantly walk the line of what is and what is not acceptable on this forum, not just in this post, but all over the forum. I regularly get complaints about your posts. If you really have a problem with how you perceive you are being treated, please reach out to one of us or to fc himself. Making claims like this in public and totally derailing a thread is the wrong way to do it. Posting three times in a row is Obnoxious, just multi-quote into one post please.

    Any further discussions about moderating need to be moved to the site feedback forum or put into a PM to a Super-Mod or an Admin.
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  95. #295
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post

    Any further discussions about moderating need to be moved to the site feedback forum or put into a PM to a Super-Mod or an Admin.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lemonaid View Post
    +1 seems to be a lot of confusion on what whole "ebikes on trials" issue is about. Ebikes on pavement is virtually a non issue except when speed is involved and zero issue regarding access rights.
    Surprisingly, Ebikes on pavement isn't as cut and dry as it seems. NPS bans them from bike paths for the same reason as why they're banned on trails. They consider them motorized vehicles..which means nogo on bike paths.

    That being said, I did just get an email back from them on that subject saying they're gathering more info on ebikes as they grow in use and development. So it may be revisited in the future.

  97. #297
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    They are legal on bike paths in SC.
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  98. #298
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    They are legal on bike paths in SC.
    ?

    South Carolina
    Southern California
    Santa Cruz
    Santa Clara
    Content here does not officially represent the CA DPR.

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  99. #299
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    Sorry, South Carolina. Well I should say in Greenville.
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  100. #300
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    Are you talking about having elderly people try out eBikes for riding on the street and paved bike paths, or having them try out full suspension eMTB's designed for riding on Dirt trails?

    The 2 things are not equal at all.
    Do you even bother to read the posts that you respond to? I clearly stated the words "250w trikes and cruisers", one would think that a "super moderator" would at least pretend they had shown enough respect to actually take time to both read and comprehend a post before replying. Sad.......

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