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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuyuna View Post
    I'm a little skeptical of the "facts" presented by an organization with the name "North Country Trail Defenders".


    Every side has their bad apples.

    On the e-bike side, you have the 3-5000W e-moto riders "disguised" as bike riders (not fooling anyone).

    On the anti-e-bike side, you have the kooks like these North County Trail Defenders, who are actually hurting their cause by burning bridges and being unreasonable.

  2. #102
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    I'm sure you're right. I totally missed the relevance of your brilliant analogies of bathrooms and boy scouts as related to biking, nor did I appreciated your deep understanding of European culture. I'm sure you suggested moving there based on the fact you have lived and worked in Europe, and speak three or four of the languages.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by newfydog View Post
    I'm sure you're right. I totally missed the relevance of your brilliant analogies of bathrooms and boy scouts as related to biking, nor did I appreciated your deep understanding of European culture. I'm sure you suggested moving there based on the fact you have lived and worked in Europe, and speak three or four of the languages.
    In the absence of context, Iím puzzled by this post.

  4. #104
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    Please don't say that e+ individuals state that e-MTB's are permissible everywhere (maybe KJ can add it to the "stickee"). Clearly there are places where they don't belong. On the other hand, there are places where I ride (MTB) and see an average of 1-2 bikes every 10-20 mile ride, fewer during the week. These aras might be a good place to allow access. BTY, JMO, I have no problem prohibiting access to any bikes in Wilderness areas.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by fos'l View Post
    Please don't say that e+ individuals state that e-MTB's are permissible everywhere (maybe KJ can add it to the "stickee"). Clearly there are places where they don't belong. On the other hand, there are places where I ride (MTB) and see an average of 1-2 bikes every 10-20 mile ride, fewer during the week. These aras might be a good place to allow access. BTY, JMO, I have no problem prohibiting access to any bikes in Wilderness areas.
    Around here, and on all state trails, class 1 e-bikes are permitted anywhere conventional mountain bikes are permitted. Since 2012. It has generated a negligible amount of local drama over all that time. I was surprised at the vehemence that it causes on this forum. I just never viewed e-bikes as a big deal.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by fos'l View Post
    Please don't say that e+ individuals state that e-MTB's are permissible everywhere (maybe KJ can add it to the "stickee"). Clearly there are places where they don't belong.
    This is cryptic but it seems like you might be referring to me? If so I think you may have misunderstood my post.

    That said there are individuals here who have stated that e-bikes should be allowed everywhere.
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  7. #107
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    Really, I don't care that much about Trail access. Most of the trails I ride are multi-use anyway and I don't see how eBikes would be a problem.

    But eBikes are a separate "sport."

  8. #108
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    Also, I despise the word "impact." Mountain bikes and eBikes are not meteors. A few dents in the mud here or there and a minuscule amount of erosion off of a trail is not an environmental catastrophe. I have been riding some of the same trails for almost twenty years and they are still there, none the worse for the wear.

    Every time it rains here the creeks turn red with thousands of tones of eroded silt. I just can't get worked up over a few pounds of dirt displaced for a trail every few years.

    The fact that we do get worked up shows that we have surrendered the terms of the debate to the totalitarian environmentalists.

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post

    That said there are individuals here who have stated that e-bikes should be allowed everywhere.
    I think it would be more accurate to say that some individuals here are saying that class 1 e-MTBs should be allowed everywhere that conventional mountain bikes are allowed.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    This is cryptic but it seems like you might be referring to me? If so I think you may have misunderstood my post.

    That said there are individuals here who have stated that e-bikes should be allowed everywhere.
    Having owned Ebikes for sometime now, I believe they should be allowed everywhere. Strava freaks are more of a concern.
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  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailuropoda View Post
    Also, I despise the word "impact." Mountain bikes and eBikes are not meteors. A few dents in the mud here or there and a minuscule amount of erosion off of a trail is not an environmental catastrophe. I have been riding some of the same trails for almost twenty years and they are still there, none the worse for the wear.

    Every time it rains here the creeks turn red with thousands of tones of eroded silt. I just can't get worked up over a few pounds of dirt displaced for a trail every few years.

    The fact that we do get worked up shows that we have surrendered the terms of the debate to the totalitarian environmentalists.
    Not everyone rides in Louisiana. On deltas that flood yearly. Look beyond your local trails. And "don't care about trail access ?" Nice.

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by fos'l View Post
    Please don't say that e+ individuals state that e-MTB's are permissible everywhere (maybe KJ can add it to the "stickee").
    I'll let them speak for themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    Having owned Ebikes for sometime now, I believe they should be allowed everywhere
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  13. #113
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    ^Yes sir! Just a matter of perspectives. I have been a logger and forester for most of my adult career, and I feel bikes are the least thing to worry about.
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  14. #114
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    Yep, a matter of perspective, your own farts never stink.
    I brake for stinkbugs

  15. #115
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    Why are ebikes such a touchy subject? Beyond the potential environmental impacts, and the potential for adverse treatment of regular mtbs being lumped in with e-machines, ebikes are an anathema to everything that makes Mountain Biking something worth doing.

    To me, mountain biking is about getting out into the wilderness, confronting nature in its most primitive form, and pushing your body to overcome the obstacles in your path. I don't want it to be easy. I don't want the assistance of a motor the same way I don't want sanitized, dumbed-down trails that make it easier to ride. I want a challenge.

    Add a motor to the bike and you remove the fundamental basis of that challenge. It becomes easy. It becomes something anyone can do. I don't mind sharing the trails with the few who are willing to put in the effort, but I do mind sharing with those who cheat the trail gods with a motor.

    You want to ride your motor bike? There are places for you, and hey, many of them are even paved for your convenience. You want to ride your e-machine? Go there. Stay out of my nature.


    ** to be fair, the above is a purely emotional reaction. As to allowing ebikes from a legal perspective, so long as they don't damage the environment or the trails, I think it would be fine. I don't really like it, and I think ebikers are lazy cheating bastards, but hey, it's your life, and if you're not hurting me or my trails, go ahead and be a lazy cheating bastard. **

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by kpdemello View Post
    To me, mountain biking is about getting out into the wilderness, confronting nature in its most primitive form, and pushing your body to overcome the obstacles in your path. I don't want it to be easy. I don't want the assistance of a motor the same way I don't want sanitized, dumbed-down trails that make it easier to ride. I want a challenge.
    And everybody who wants to "get out into the wilderness" should share your perspective for doing so, right?

  17. #117
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    KPDEMELLO- Wow, if you feel that deeply, I strongly suggest you boycott every manufacturer and component maker that supports Ebikes. Just how pure are you?
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  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuyuna View Post
    And everybody who wants to "get out into the wilderness" should share your perspective for doing so, right?
    In an ideal world, yeah. But hey, so long as you're not damaging anything out there, go ahead and cheat the trail gods. But I hope your ebike battery catches fire while you're a comfortable distance away from it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    KPDEMELLO- Wow, if you feel that deeply, I strongly suggest you boycott every manufacturer and component maker that supports Ebikes.
    Nah.

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Yep, a matter of perspective, your own farts never stink.
    Thatís funny! My wife says the same thing. 🤔
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  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Yep, a matter of perspective, your own farts never stink.
    Really depends on what I have been eating.....
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  21. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuyuna View Post
    I think it would be more accurate to say that some individuals here are saying that class 1 e-MTBs should be allowed everywhere that conventional mountain bikes are allowed.
    Exactly!

  22. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuyuna View Post
    And everybody who wants to "get out into the wilderness" should share your perspective for doing so, right?

    What about people who wish to venture into the wilderness in a 300hp air conditioned 4wd? Do you share their perspective?
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  23. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by kpdemello View Post
    Why are ebikes such a touchy subject? Beyond the potential environmental impacts, and the potential for adverse treatment of regular mtbs being lumped in with e-machines, ebikes are an anathema to everything that makes Mountain Biking something worth doing.

    To me, mountain biking is about getting out into the wilderness, confronting nature in its most primitive form, and pushing your body to overcome the obstacles in your path. I don't want it to be easy. I don't want the assistance of a motor the same way I don't want sanitized, dumbed-down trails that make it easier to ride. I want a challenge.

    Add a motor to the bike and you remove the fundamental basis of that challenge. It becomes easy. It becomes something anyone can do. I don't mind sharing the trails with the few who are willing to put in the effort, but I do mind sharing with those who cheat the trail gods with a motor.

    You want to ride your motor bike? There are places for you, and hey, many of them are even paved for your convenience. You want to ride your e-machine? Go there. Stay out of my nature.


    ** to be fair, the above is a purely emotional reaction. As to allowing ebikes from a legal perspective, so long as they don't damage the environment or the trails, I think it would be fine. I don't really like it, and I think ebikers are lazy cheating bastards, but hey, it's your life, and if you're not hurting me or my trails, go ahead and be a lazy cheating bastard. **
    Again with the "cheating" stuff....... If there is no race, who is cheating? What sort of competition is going on here? How does a 64 year old guy going for a trail ride on his eMTB cause anyone to feel to so threatened as to refer to a human they do not know as "a lazy cheating bastard"? I just do not understand this........

  24. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    What about people who wish to venture into the wilderness in a 300hp air conditioned 4wd? Do you share their perspective?
    No, of course not. Who in this thread is promoting driving 4wd automobiles on mountain bike trails? Are you trying to equate a class 1 e-MTB to a 300hp air conditioned 4wd? That doesn't even make sense.

  25. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by WoodlandHills View Post
    Again with the "cheating" stuff....... If there is no race, who is cheating? What sort of competition is going on here? How does a 64 year old guy going for a trail ride on his eMTB cause anyone to feel to so threatened as to refer to a human they do not know as "a lazy cheating bastard"? I just do not understand this........
    Immaturity and lack of bike etiquette.
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  26. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by WoodlandHills View Post
    Again with the "cheating" stuff....... If there is no race, who is cheating? What sort of competition is going on here? How does a 64 year old guy going for a trail ride on his eMTB cause anyone to feel to so threatened as to refer to a human they do not know as "a lazy cheating bastard"? I just do not understand this........
    Yeah, if you don't get it after reading my post above, you probably never will.

    But to illustrate it a different way, it's kind of like people who take the car road up to the top of mount Washington, versus the people who hike it. The former are just tourists, and while I don't begrudge them their little visit, I don't really respect their activity much. But the hiker who hiked up from the bottom? That guy has my respect.

  27. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    What about people who wish to venture into the wilderness in a 300hp air conditioned 4wd? Do you share their perspective?
    Only if itís lifted with a big ass winch and a cooler full of beer.
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  28. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    The sky is falling!! No, itís not. A different sport is entering the arena. Itís a change for sure and no one likes change. Thereís good people that enjoy riding Ebikes and most of them have been a cyclist for years. There was a reason every major manufacture started producing Class 1 Ebikes with no throttleís years ago. Itís obviously going to be on a case by case basis everywhere for acceptance on MUTís. The LM are going to have to step up and understand this new sport. Some will post no ebikes, others wonít.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    Having owned Ebikes for sometime now, I believe they should be allowed everywhere. Strava freaks are more of a concern.
    Unless you have ridden everywhere, I don't think you can knowledgeably make the second post I quoted above but your earlier statement makes a lot more sense to me.
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  29. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by kpdemello View Post
    Yeah, if you don't get it after reading my post above, you probably never will.

    But to illustrate it a different way, it's kind of like people who take the car road up to the top of mount Washington, versus the people who hike it. The former are just tourists, and while I don't begrudge them their little visit, I don't really respect their activity much. But the hiker who hiked up from the bottom? That guy has my respect.
    No offense meant, but seriously....who cares?

  30. #130
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    The OP... he asked why ebikes were such a touchy subject, and I answered. And you, apparently, because you keep responding to my posts.

    I just thought of another example. I once heard a story about a person who would drive her car 100 yards from her front door to her office because she was too lazy to walk. It drove her coworker crazy. That is what an ebiker seems like to a regular MTBer.

  31. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuyuna View Post
    No, of course not. Who in this thread is promoting driving 4wd automobiles on mountain bike trails? Are you trying to equate a class 1 e-MTB to a 300hp air conditioned 4wd? That doesn't even make sense.

    Ha ha, that was the exact response I predicted! Of course I'm not saying that a 4wd off road vehicle is the same as an e-bike, are you saying an e-bike is the same as hiking boots? You may think boots and electric bikes have an identical impact but many 4wd enthusiasts don't understand how their impact is any different either, just a wider trail is all.

    Sound familiar?
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  32. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    Only if itís lifted with a big ass winch and a cooler full of beer.

    Yes!
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  33. #133
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    I'm fine with letting ebike go wherever they're allowed so long as they are categorized as something completely separate user from mountain bikes and don't share the same access priveledges. They are free to lobby for access on their own merits but not too infringe on access already granted to mountain bikes. And it would be nice if the bike companies stop acting like ebikes and mountain bikes are the same even though since laws were passed to make ebikes easier to ride without licence and registration.

  34. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by kpdemello View Post
    The OP... he asked why ebikes were such a touchy subject, and I answered. And you, apparently, because you keep responding to my posts.

    I just thought of another example. I once heard a story about a person who would drive her car 100 yards from her front door to her office because she was too lazy to walk. It drove her coworker crazy. That is what an ebiker seems like to a regular MTBer.
    News flash! We also ride MTBís! Holy crap dude.
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  35. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    Unless you have ridden everywhere, I don't think you can knowledgeably make the second post I quoted above but your earlier statement makes a lot more sense to me.
    Fair enough. I do believe they should be allowed everywhere (Class 1) that a mtb is. They wonít be, but they should.
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  36. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    News flash! We also ride MTBís! Holy crap dude.
    So you only cheat some of the time?

    Or like the lady in my example, sometimes you walk the 100 yards to work, and sometimes you drive it, depending on how lazy you feel that day?

  37. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    Fair enough. I do believe they should be allowed everywhere (Class 1) that a mtb is. They wonít be, but they should.
    I'll only believe that class 1 bike are possible if they make the bike incapable of exceeding it's limit by the use of hardware methods only. Software limits are easy to bypass. Even so motorized bikes should not be considered in the same relm as normal mountain bikes.

  38. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by kpdemello View Post
    So you only cheat some of the time?

    Or like the lady in my example, sometimes you walk the 100 yards to work, and sometimes you drive it, depending on how lazy you feel that day?
    Iíve ridden with some hardcore riders thru the years, but Iím certain you are the baddest dude on the mountain. Congrats. Yeah, I cheat all the time! Fun as shit.
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    Good for you. Glad you're living your best life.

    But my opinion still stands, and I think most regular MTBers share it, which is why I think eMBTs are such a touchy subject in the U.S.

  40. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by kpdemello View Post
    Good for you. Glad you're living your best life.

    But my opinion still stands, and I think most regular MTBers share it, which is why eMBTs are such a touchy subject in the U.S.
    Fair enough, nobody likes change- but itís inevitable.
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  41. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Ha ha, that was the exact response I predicted! Of course I'm not saying that a 4wd off road vehicle is the same as an e-bike, are you saying an e-bike is the same as hiking boots? You may think boots and electric bikes have an identical impact but many 4wd enthusiasts don't understand how their impact is any different either, just a wider trail is all.

    Sound familiar?
    Now we're talking hiking boots? Your intellectual agility is dizzying.

    No, I'm saying a class 1 e-MTB has the same impact as a conventional mountain bike.

  42. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    Fair enough, nobody likes change- but itís inevitable.
    Maybe, but here's to hoping that ebikes become about as popular as mopeds.

  43. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuyuna View Post
    Now we're talking hiking boots? Your intellectual agility is dizzying
    It is quite impressive, thanks for noticing!
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  44. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by kpdemello View Post
    Maybe, but here's to hoping that ebikes become about as popular as mopeds.
    Actually, Ebikes are becoming way more popular than mopeds. Globally too!

  45. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    It is quite impressive, thanks for noticing!


    .

  46. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by kpdemello View Post
    Yeah, if you don't get it after reading my post above, you probably never will.

    But to illustrate it a different way, it's kind of like people who take the car road up to the top of mount Washington, versus the people who hike it. The former are just tourists, and while I don't begrudge them their little visit, I don't really respect their activity much. But the hiker who hiked up from the bottom? That guy has my respect.
    But are the people who drive up in their cars "lazy cheating bastards" and if not why am I? Perhaps the real issue is your emotional reaction in one instance and not the other? Logic seems to not come into it?

  47. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by kpdemello View Post
    The OP... he asked why ebikes were such a touchy subject, and I answered. And you, apparently, because you keep responding to my posts.

    I just thought of another example. I once heard a story about a person who would drive her car 100 yards from her front door to her office because she was too lazy to walk. It drove her coworker crazy. That is what an ebiker seems like to a regular MTBer.
    That's what it seems like to YOU, and you don't speak for all of us.

    I've climbed Mt Washington a number of times. In the dead of winter. EVen bivied up there in -20 degree conditions with 100+ mph winds.
    I've also driven up it, and taken the cog railway.
    BFD. Not everyone is so evangelically one-dimensional.

    Reminds me of some (very few) of the mountain bikers that roll through the local pumptrack I've been building for some years now. Some of the network of mountain bike trails (that I also have a major part in building and maintaining) pass right by it.

    Though most riders know exactly who I am, sometimes I'll run into some of those self-appointed 'hardcore' MTBRs who, when they see a grown man in sweat-and-dirt covered jeans and a torn wife-beater, drinking beers, throwing dirt, and rolling around on a 20" bike with a bunch of BMX groms, obviously dismiss me as someone not worthy of even acknowledging. Those are the ********s that never get the 411 on the connections to miles of secret stashes they're riding past, or offered a beer, or any of the other perks that go along with not being a wanna-be elitist dink. Some people really need to get over themselves and stop making so many snap judgments about others.
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  48. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by WoodlandHills View Post
    But are the people who drive up in their cars "lazy cheating bastards" and if not why am I? Perhaps the real issue is your emotional reaction in one instance and not the other? Logic seems to not come into it?
    Yeah that's kind of my point. The reason ebikes are met with such vitriol by many in the MTB community is because of a gut, emotional reaction that many MTBers, including myself, have toward them.

    Sure, there's logical reasons behind a lot of it, too, like trail impact, environmental impact, etc. But if we're honest, the vitriol is largely based in emotion.

    Here's another example. Imagine a person driving a scooter around a local Wal-Mart, even though that person is fully capable of walking. The person is just too lazy to do so. That's how a lot of MTBers see eMTBers. I'm certainly not alone in thinking this way.

  49. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Yep, a matter of perspective, your own farts never stink.
    The forest products companies here are good stewards of their land. Plus I ride their logging roads. I used to be in the industry myself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    Not everyone rides in Louisiana. On deltas that flood yearly. Look beyond your local trails. And "don't care about trail access ?" Nice.
    I've ridden many places. Mountain bikes have even less "impact" in other places.

  51. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    That's what it seems like to YOU, and you don't speak for all of us.

    I've climbed Mt Washington a number of times. In the dead of winter. EVen bivied up there in -20 degree conditions with 100+ mph winds.
    I've also driven up it, and taken the cog railway.
    BFD. Not everyone is so evangelically one-dimensional.

    Reminds me of some (very few) of the mountain bikers that roll through the local pumptrack I've been building for some years now. Some of the network of mountain bike trails (that I also have a major part in building and maintaining) pass right by it.

    Though most riders know exactly who I am, sometimes I'll run into some of those self-appointed 'hardcore' MTBRs who, when they see a grown man in sweat-and-dirt covered jeans and a torn wife-beater, drinking beers, throwing dirt, and rolling around on a 20" bike with a bunch of BMX groms, obviously dismiss me as someone not worthy of even acknowledging. Those are the ********s that never get the 411 on the connections to miles of secret stashes they're riding past, or offered a beer, or any of the other perks that go along with not being a wanna-be elitist dink. Some people really need to get over themselves and stop making so many snap judgments about others.
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  52. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    .................Those are the ********s that never get the 411 on the connections to miles of secret stashes they're riding past, or offered a beer, or any of the other perks that go along with not being a wanna-be elitist dink. Some people really need to get over themselves and stop making so many snap judgments about others.
    "Wannabe elitist dink". I like that. It sums up that aspect of the argument nicely.

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    SHM, thanks for the great rebuttal to the vitriol, name-calling (thought it wasn't allowed) and rancor from narrow-mindedness. Unfortunately, the individuals on my local forum are the same as this guy. They regale at someone who gave an old man (not me this time) riding an e-bike a hard time or who, with a bunch of his friends, terrorized another individual on an e-MTB.

  54. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    So you really think there should be an unlimited speed limit for MTBs and a 15 MPH speed limit for eMTBs?

    That's insane.
    Speed limit and assist limit are different things, mmkay?


    My problem with e-bikers thus far in Michigan is only from personal experience. I've had a handful of experiences with them. The trails I've seen them at have multiple "no e-bike" signs. It seems rather clear to me. I usually ask them if they know that e-bikes are not allowed. Everyone I've run into has attempted to defend their use of e-bikes, most due to some injury. Guess what, I've got a lingering back injury that causes regular pain since 2001 and have torn both ACL, a meniscus, labrum, and broken glenoid over the years. I don't feel that gives me an excuse to ride where I'm prohibited or a need to ride an e-bike. Just admit that you were wrong and head back to the trailhead.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fos'l View Post
    Please don't say that e+ individuals state that e-MTB's are permissible everywhere (maybe KJ can add it to the "stickee"). Clearly there are places where they don't belong. On the other hand, there are places where I ride (MTB) and see an average of 1-2 bikes every 10-20 mile ride, fewer during the week. These aras might be a good place to allow access. BTY, JMO, I have no problem prohibiting access to any bikes in Wilderness areas.
    Not directed at anyone in particular and erroneous because, in my naivety I didn't think anyone subscribed to this. IMO this "demand" will hamper e-access.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fos'l View Post
    SHM, thanks for the great rebuttal to the vitriol, name-calling (thought it wasn't allowed) and rancor from narrow-mindedness. Unfortunately, the individuals on my local forum are the same as this guy. They regale at someone who gave an old man (not me this time) riding an e-bike a hard time or who, with a bunch of his friends, terrorized another individual on an e-MTB.
    This is an interesting response. I was actually trying to capture how I and other MTBers feel about this, and explain it, not spout vitriol. The OP asked about why ebikes are a touchy subject, so I was trying to explain how I and others see it.

    It seems that you tend to care quite a bit that some MTBers don't care much for eMTBers, but you don't really seem to care why. I find that odd. As to name calling, does "wannabe elitist dink" not count? Or is it okay because it was done by people you agree with?

    As for old guys riding e-mtbs, that whole "i'm feeble so I need e-assist" is really a silly and baseless argument. I've ridden with guys in their 50's and 60s and they did just fine without a motor. Also, this guy has no legs and still didn't resort to using an e-motor-bike:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Q2T5Q8G5VE

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    Quote Originally Posted by kpdemello View Post
    This is an interesting response. I was actually trying to capture how I and other MTBers feel about this, and explain it, not spout vitriol. The OP asked about why ebikes are a touchy subject, so I was trying to explain how I and others see it.

    It seems that you tend to care quite a bit that some MTBers don't care much for eMTBers, but you don't really seem to care why. I find that odd. As to name calling, does "wannabe elitist dink" not count? Or is it okay because it was done by people you agree with?

    As for old guys riding e-mtbs, that whole "i'm feeble so I need e-assist" is really a silly and baseless argument. I've ridden with guys in their 50's and 60s and they did just fine without a motor. Also, this guy has no legs and still didn't resort to using an e-motor-bike


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Q2T5Q8G5VE
    Gee, were you really complimenting e-MTB riders when you called us "lazy bastards". Also get a kick out of individuals who think anyone in their 50's and 60's is old --- keep going and maybe the light will come on. Probably you missed the point, but many e-MTBers ride their e-bikes occasionally because it's a blast, something that narrow-minded individuals will never discover. The only thing you did was pretend to answer the question while using your response to vilify and excoriate.

  58. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by fos'l View Post
    Gee, were you really complimenting e-MTB riders when you called us "lazy bastards". Also get a kick out of individuals who think anyone in their 50's and 60's is old --- keep going and maybe the light will come on. Probably you missed the point, but many e-MTBers ride their e-bikes occasionally because it's a blast, something that narrow-minded individuals will never discover. The only thing you did was pretend to answer the question while using your response to vilify and excoriate.
    Never said I was?

    Look, I don't really care how you get your jollies, whether that be with e-bikes or something else, so long as you're not harming me or anyone else. But e-bikes are regarded with suspicion and contempt by many in the MTB world. You can call that narrow minded or whatever other names you feel like, but it isn't going to win over anybody in the anti-e camp. Maybe you think you don't care about that, but the way you're cheering on the 'rebuttal' in your post above makes me think you care more than you realize.

    I find that odd, too, that you'd get worked up over what some guy on the internet thinks of your silly hobby.

  59. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by kpdemello View Post
    Never said I was?

    Look, I don't really care how you get your jollies, whether that be with e-bikes or something else, so long as you're not harming me or anyone else. But e-bikes are regarded with suspicion and contempt by many in the MTB world. You can call that narrow minded or whatever other names you feel like, but it isn't going to win over anybody in the anti-e camp. Maybe you think you don't care about that, but the way you're cheering on the 'rebuttal' in your post above makes me think you care more than you realize.

    I find that odd, too, that you'd get worked up over what some guy on the internet thinks of your silly hobby.
    Please read through some of the other threads in this forum, though a lot of us are not personally big fans of ebikes and have major concerns, we would prefer you not try to speak for us. Not trying to start anything here, but fos'l is actually pretty level headed, please read his post that was added to the ebike forum rules.
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  60. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryguy79 View Post
    Speed limit and assist limit are different things, mmkay?


    My problem with e-bikers thus far in Michigan is only from personal experience. I've had a handful of experiences with them. The trails I've seen them at have multiple "no e-bike" signs. It seems rather clear to me. I usually ask them if they know that e-bikes are not allowed. Everyone I've run into has attempted to defend their use of e-bikes, most due to some injury. Guess what, I've got a lingering back injury that causes regular pain since 2001 and have torn both ACL, a meniscus, labrum, and broken glenoid over the years. I don't feel that gives me an excuse to ride where I'm prohibited or a need to ride an e-bike. Just admit that you were wrong and head back to the trailhead.
    I ride mtb, Ebikes, roadbikes, and hotwheels(jk!) well maybe a spin on my sons green machine.. and I completely agree, they are poaching and know better. Donít make excuses, just flat out admit they are riding them because of the fun factor. Thatís why I ride them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailuropoda View Post
    The forest products companies here are good stewards of their land. Plus I ride their logging roads. I used to be in the industry myself.
    Again, it's a matter of perspective. Ask some of the local (non-human) residents how they feel about it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    Please read through some of the other threads in this forum, though a lot of us are not personally big fans of ebikes and have major concerns, we would prefer you not try to speak for us. Not trying to start anything here, but fos'l is actually pretty level headed, please read his post that was added to the ebike forum rules.
    Who's we? I mean, who are you trying to speak for besides yourself? You disagree with anything I've said, feel free to so state.

  63. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Again, it's a matter of perspective. Ask some of the local (non-human) residents how they feel about it.
    You obviously donít understand the forest products industry. The next time you wipe, thank a logger.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kpdemello View Post
    Yeah that's kind of my point. The reason ebikes are met with such vitriol by many in the MTB community is because of a gut, emotional reaction that many MTBers, including myself, have toward them.

    Sure, there's logical reasons behind a lot of it, too, like trail impact, environmental impact, etc. But if we're honest, the vitriol is largely based in emotion.

    Here's another example. Imagine a person driving a scooter around a local Wal-Mart, even though that person is fully capable of walking. The person is just too lazy to do so. That's how a lot of MTBers see eMTBers. I'm certainly not alone in thinking this way.

    You've never ridden an eMTB on a trail have you?

  65. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by kpdemello View Post
    Never said I was?

    Look, I don't really care how you get your jollies, whether that be with e-bikes or something else, so long as you're not harming me or anyone else. But e-bikes are regarded with suspicion and contempt by many in the MTB world. You can call that narrow minded or whatever other names you feel like, but it isn't going to win over anybody in the anti-e camp. Maybe you think you don't care about that, but the way you're cheering on the 'rebuttal' in your post above makes me think you care more than you realize.

    I find that odd, too, that you'd get worked up over what some guy on the internet thinks of your silly hobby.
    I don't care what you think about e-MTB (which I do about 10-15% of the time riding off road) and could give a crap less about changing your mind,
    but I don't like to be called a "lazy bastard". As a constructive exercise, why don't you head for a local bar, locate the biggest motorcyclist there and call him that. Then, when you pick yourself off the ground and collect all your missing teeth, you can tell him you're "jesh" surprised his skin is so thin.

  66. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by kpdemello View Post
    Who's we? I mean, who are you trying to speak for besides yourself? You disagree with anything I've said, feel free to so state.
    Just reading the ebike threads a good bit, it seems a good number of us really only want a few things from the ebikers (most of this has been regurgitated over and over, hence my suggestion to read the old threads):

    1) Please don't call them bicycles or try to convince others that they are "just modern bicycles". Maybe that is emotional but I just think people should be properly recognized for what they do. I went to an engineering university but I'm not an engineer so I don't call myself one, I graduated from the college or architecture but not with a degree in architecture so I don't call myself an architect. If I played miniature golf I would not tell people I was a golfer (ok, maybe for a minute as a joke). Ebikes aren't for me but there's nothing wrong with someone being an ebiker but there's also no reason to pretend they are something different. I don't care if some government body decides they will be managed the same as bicycles, still doesn't change what they are.

    2) eBikers shouldn't try to gain access to mountain bike trails by sliding in as bicycles. A lot of mountain bikers have spent a lot of time advocating for mountain bike trails and building and maintaining trails and there is a fear that if ebikes are suddenly lumped in as bicycles, "mountain bikes now have motors" will be harmful to our sport. Ebikers need to form their own groups and stand on their own.

    3) A lot of us believe the land managers should determine if ebikes are allowed on their trails or not. One infamous ebiker on here posted photos of some of the trails he rode in Texas (illegally) and to me, they looked like dirt roads. Now I do not know those trails and all of the details, but I believe some trails would be fine with ebikes but not all trails.

    There is also a lot of fear due to ebikes being easily modded and the fact that it is difficult to distinguish the different classes of ebikes from each other and that ebikers will use that to get away with riding illegally. But the arguments that ebikers are "lazy" or that they (class 1) tear up the trails have been discussed to death in this forum. I don't really have an emotional reaction to them if they are cool with the above because I don't consider them to be doing the same thing I am doing.
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  67. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Again, it's a matter of perspective. Ask some of the local (non-human) residents how they feel about it.
    Oh for God's sake. Sixty years ago Louisiana was one stretch of uninterrupted cotton fields stretching from the Mississippi to the Red River. Now it's mostly forest. Lumber is a cash crop no different than any other and forests in our state are due to the timber industry. There is no "old growth" in our state, even in the State Parks.

    I really don't care if some wildlife is killed, injured, or displaced by logging. That's the way it is. It's a natural resource (that is planted by man) and it can be used. Might as well get offended that combines kill a lot of small birds and insects in the horizon-to-horizon wheat fields of Idaho.

    Animals have no opinions.
    Last edited by Ailuropoda; 11-16-2017 at 03:08 AM.

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    But your opinion of what makes a person worthy of respect is not important to anyone but you. The e-bike discourse has nothing to do with your views on the value of exercise.

    As a civil society, we established and empowered government to protect certain rights.

    What separates motorized from non motorized travel is fairly clear. The argument is over how and where these differences should be diminished.

    How will government rule on motorized vs non motorized travel, that is the question.

    What I find curious is that, until e-bikes were developed, the separation between motorized and non motorized vehicle access was clear. Why would this change simply because e-bikes are smaller, quieter, or less polluting than their gas powered brethren?

    Not really getting anywhere are we?

    I did try ...

    Quote Originally Posted by kpdemello View Post
    Yeah, if you don't get it after reading my post above, you probably never will.

    But to illustrate it a different way, it's kind of like people who take the car road up to the top of mount Washington, versus the people who hike it. The former are just tourists, and while I don't begrudge them their little visit, I don't really respect their activity much. But the hiker who hiked up from the bottom? That guy has my respect.

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    chazpat, thanks for the post; you and I (probably plenty more) are in concert (now, now, suicide doesn't solve anything.

  70. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by kpdemello View Post
    Who's we?
    I'm 'we' also.
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  71. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nurse Ben View Post
    But your opinion of what makes a person worthy of respect is not important to anyone but you. The e-bike discourse has nothing to do with your views on the value of exercise.
    I get that, but... hey did you listen to the recording in the op? The very first guy talks about this gut reaction that people have to e-bikes. This is what I am talking about. If people have a gut, visceral reaction to an activity that is negative, that is going to play into how that activity is treated. It's something that will have to be overcome in the e-bike discourse.

    Honestly it's not all that different from how regular MTBs were first perceived. Some people still perceive unpowered MTBs in this negative way, as I recall reading about this psycho couple recently out in the pacific northwest that was sabotaging trail and literally setting traps to injure mountain bikers.

    Again, this all goes back to the OP's original question - why are eMTB's a touchy subject. I think what it comes down to is that eMTBs are seen as a dangerous other entity, something different and not like what regular MTBers do. I think it's very similar to how hikers and land managers looked at MTBs originally. What the MTB community did, with pretty good success, was demonstrate to hikers and other users how they were similar and had similar goals (human powered, sustainability, environmental preservation, etc).

  72. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailuropoda View Post

    Animals have no opinions.
    Then I'll disregard your post.
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    A respectful forester or logger that practices sustained forestry skills is going to be very conscious of wild life. I know I was, also don't enjoy trappers or hunters, but understand some is necessary. After working in the woods daily thru snow and all sorts of weather you tend to enjoy seeing the animals and less so humans!
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    Quote Originally Posted by kpdemello View Post
    Again, this all goes back to the OP's original question - why are eMTB's a touchy subject. I think what it comes down to is that eMTBs are seen as a dangerous other entity, something different and not like what regular MTBers do.
    No, I think you made it quite clear earlier that you don't like the idea of e-MTBers taking the "lazy way" to the top of the mountain. You don't see them as dangerous. You see them with disdain and disgust.

  75. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by EricTheDood View Post
    No, I think you made it quite clear earlier that you don't like the idea of e-MTBers taking the "lazy way" to the top of the mountain. You don't see them as dangerous. You see them with disdain and disgust.
    Splitting hairs, but okay.

    The point that apparently went whooshing over your head was that ebikes are a touchy subject because I and others view them this way. It's not an opinion that can't be changed, but it certainly seems like an uphill battle.

    You know what though, I'll give you a sample response that you could have made: "Sure, we who ride eMTBs don't work as hard as regular MTB riders. So what. We're just out to have fun, and we think eMTBs are fun. The same way motocross is fun, lift-served skiing is fun, and even lift-served downhill mountain biking is fun. Those sports all involve motors. Why can't we have our fun on eMTBs?"

    I could respond to that in a civilized way. Maybe we could even reach some sort of understanding. But instead, the responses I'm getting here are that I'm a narrow-minded elitist dink, and no one cares about my opinion. That sort of response does not encourage discussion in my opinion.

  76. #176
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    Even though my wife rides an ebike, I still donít see how an electric motor driven vehicle is any different than a gas motor driven vehicle. If e-bikes are allow on a trail, why arenít gas powered bikes. Splitting hairs doesnít change the facts.

    Teslaís are not gas powered, does that mean that laws made during the evolution of gas powered vehicles should not apply to electric cars?

    Back to the beginning... human powered means not motorized.

    I think the existing trails rules should remain as they are: non motorized and motorized. ebikes are motorized, they can use the same trails as an ATV or moto. Problem solved.

  77. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nurse Ben View Post
    I think the existing trails rules should remain as they are: non motorized and motorized. ebikes are motorized, they can use the same trails as an ATV or moto. Problem solved.
    I am not sure why this can't be the universal solution? Maybe because e-MTBs are electric, and therefore seen as "green," something to be encouraged by the environmentally conscious, and made special exception for? I also think e-MTBs blur the line between motorized and non-motorized, or at least that is what e-MTB advocates would have us believe.

    I think it might be that blurring of the line that produces such a visceral emotional reaction. It seems deceptive in nature.

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    So many emotions trying to be couched as logical arguments on both sides.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kpdemello View Post
    did you listen to the recording in the op? The very first guy talks about this gut reaction that people have to e-bikes. This is what I am talking about. If people have a gut, visceral reaction to an activity that is negative, that is going to play into how that activity is treated. It's something that will have to be overcome in the e-bike discourse.
    I have carefully read everything posted here and I have to agree with kpdemello on this point.

    This thread is not about "should" ebikes have access or anything along those lines. It is all about how the general public perceive them with or without being informed as to what they really are.

    One person might hear "motor" and automatically think "lazy".

    Another person might hear "motor" and think "fast n fun"

    Another might hear "motor" and think "fast and dangerous" or "fast and destructive"

    Perception for most IS reality, it is up to eBike stewards, primarily manufactures IMO, to be those stewards and take the lead in changing public perception.

    It is not only the minds of regular MTBers that need to be changed.
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    The public perception is that ebikes are regular mtbs.

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    T-O-O-L and I donít mean Park tool.
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    Quote Originally Posted by justin70 View Post
    So many emotions trying to be couched as logical arguments on both sides.
    I don't see too much of that on the pro e-bike side, at least here.

    Seems the vast majority of e-bikers that have chimed in are perfectly willing to accept the fact that e-bikes are different than mountain bikes.

    Most of the non-e-biking 'regulars' who comment here with concerns are likewise not of the ilk that arrogantly proclaim personal superiority based on nothing more than someone's personal preferences when it comes to leisure time activities either. That takes a special kind of dink IMHO. Special, but obviously not uncommon.

    Who knew so many people feel the urge to be part of the Exercise Police?
    Lame.
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  83. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by Linktung View Post
    The public perception is that ebikes are regular mtbs.
    What are you basing that on?

    facts, numbers of any sort?
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  84. #184
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    http://forums.mtbr.com/e-bikes/jeffe...l#post13420912

    Basing that on the fact that they look and act like a regular mounntain bike. I have been accused of riding an ebike when I wasn't on one and accused of not riding an ebike while I was on one.

    Technically speaking an electronic shifting bike is motorized as well. The definition of motorized includes adding a motor for operation.

  85. #185
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    65% of park visitors are unable to detect the presence of a Class 1 e-bike.
    So because 65% of 375 people surveyed at one park in one part of the country are unable to detect the presence of a class 1 eBike you feel that is the same as your statement "The public perception is that ebikes are regular mtbs."

    That is not the same at all.

    Take a look at the sampling for "Acceptance by Trail Type"

    34% say only on paved roads
    10% say not at all
    14% say not sure
    2% say nature surface only (I am not sure what that means, the study did not provide definitions for that)

    Add those up and 60% of those users are not sure or against eBikes being on Trails. That means based on this one study, the Majority of public perception in this case is "against" eBikes on trails.

    Even look at the 92 people who demo'd an ebike, even after riding one:

    20% not sure
    10% no
    20% paved only
    4% MTN (still not sure what this is, but does not fall into the "all" category)

    So that is 54% that could be against ebikes on trails.


    That survey shows that the minority favors eBikes on all trails.


    This study is just one small sampling, and does not actually address your comment above at all.
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  86. #186
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    When asked if a a bike was electric 65 percent got it wrong....sorry if the sample size is small, and hosnestly I do not care what folks in other parts of the country think.

  87. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by Linktung View Post
    The public perception is that ebikes are regular mtbs.
    Said no one ever.

  88. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by Linktung View Post
    When asked if a a bike was electric 65 percent got it wrong....sorry if the sample size is small, and hosnestly I do not care what folks in other parts of the country think.
    That is not the same thing.

    Being sneaky about having a motor and tricking people is not the same thing at all.


    Also you should care what other parts of the country are doing as it has the potential to set the standard for where you live.
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  89. #189
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    The standard for where I live is set by people not giving a damn what type of bicycle you are riding...perhaps in some other parts of the country where the riding is crap people have nothing better to do then check out what type of bike you are riding. I am not sneaky about what type of bike I am riding nor are other people. Have you ridden an ebike on your local trails? If not how would you know what the public perception is?

  90. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by Linktung View Post
    Have you ridden an ebike on your local trails? If not how would you know what the public perception is?
    That has nothing to do with this discussion. But yes I have ridden a eBike on my local trails. Riding one does not grant the rider an overall bearing on what public perception is. It grants them an extemely small sampling of the few other users they encounter, that is not the general public by any means.

    I think what you are trying to say is that the public does not care because they do not know others are riding eBikes because most ped-elec bikes look so similar to regular MTBs. Is that what you are getting at?

    The study above shows that the public does care once they are informed what eBikes are AND the small sampling showed that some changed their mind once they rode one.
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  91. #191
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    What I am getting at is people do not bother to determine the nuanced qualities of your ride. Not that it matters, because when asked to observe an ebike they still get it wrong. The people in the study had a fifty fifty shot at getting the answer right yet somehow got it wrong more then fifty percent. The vast majority of ebikers I see are violating the law, in plain view, by a populace largely informed of what an ebike is, and yet I have never heard of someone getting a ticket.

  92. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by justin70 View Post
    So many emotions trying to be couched as logical arguments on both sides.
    There's no emotion in this opinion:

    The law is the law. If a trail is posted as non motorized, then that is the law.

    No emotion necessary to follow the rules. People who break the rules or rationalize why laws don't apply to them, that is the source of opinion and emotion.

    The problem with e-bikes is that their are people and an industry who want e-bikes on non motorized trails, they are also the ones wanting to change the law.

    I'm not sure how emotion factors into existing law, however, if ebikers want to change the law, then there will be a debate and it will likely be emotional.

  93. #193
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    Well put.

    I would add that a survey of trail users is not the same as asking the populace to vote on changing laws.

    It would not be surprising if the folks who said "no big deal" felt differently when exposed to both sides of a campaign to change a law limiting access.

    Quote Originally Posted by Linktung View Post
    What I am getting at is people do not bother to determine the nuanced qualities of your ride. Not that it matters, because when asked to observe an ebike they still get it wrong. The people in the study had a fifty fifty shot at getting the answer right yet somehow got it wrong more then fifty percent. The vast majority of ebikers I see are violating the law, in plain view, by a populace largely informed of what an ebike is, and yet I have never heard of someone getting a ticket.

  94. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by Linktung View Post
    http://forums.mtbr.com/e-bikes/jeffe...l#post13420912

    Basing that on the fact that they look and act like a regular mounntain bike. I have been accused of riding an ebike when I wasn't on one and accused of not riding an ebike while I was on one.

    Technically speaking an electronic shifting bike is motorized as well. The definition of motorized includes adding a motor for operation.
    The definition of motorized means the motor is manner of propulsion.

  95. #195
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    Does your computer have access to Google?

  96. #196
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    Are we going back to " I have a fan on my handle bar, it's a motorized bike ?" I refer you to some of the definitions here regarding forum posting rules. The Di2i motor runs off some tiny battery and yes, it has a tiny motor. You now telling me it's an e bike and it makes the bike go 20 mph? I would also refer you to the title of the first post. Uggg.

  97. #197
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    According to Google's definition of motorized, an electronically shifted bike (motors used for operation) is in fact, motorized.

  98. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by Linktung View Post
    According to Google's definition of motorized, an electronically shifted bike (motors used for operation) is in fact, motorized.
    How about we use the definition set forth here, by fed, state, county, DOT, BLM, and USFS for starters. Or continue being obtuse?

  99. #199
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    Sure, but those agency's definition of motorized does not hinge on propulsion either, hence the ban on chainsaws in Wilderness.

  100. #200
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    OK, great. You ride a manual power chainsaw through the woods? The subject I thought was e bikes? You're straying.

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