Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 29
  1. #1
    mtbr member
    Reputation: trojans1993's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    481

    Warning: Do not buy SUNLINE mtb products - warranty no longer valid

    I am so pissed off right now I can't even believe it. I'm just finishing up my hard earned Tracer 2 custom build and the last piece I needed was a nice AM style stem. I liked the weight and style of the Sunline V1 65mm so I went ahead an purchased one. Although I read about a few issues of people stripping bolts, most of the reviews were positive and I chalked the bad ones up to over tightening.

    I received the stem and it looked like a well build piece, so like all other parts I install, I was very careful with faceplate spacing and using some fresh Finish Line Teflon grease and my Park torque wrench. I very carefully and evenly applied torque to each of the 4 bolts 1 pound at a time until I was at about 7 Nm and one of the top bolts stripped. I couldn't believe it, but the bolt thread looked fine so I swapped bolts and found the actual stem is stripped.

    Having many other Sunline and SixSixOne products that I'm very happy with, I was cofident they would stand behind their product. I WAS VERY WRONG. I just got off the phone with their Customer Service/Warranty manager and was straight up told "we no longer support Sunline hardgoods". After my initial shock, I asked (very calm and polite the whole time) well what do I do then and said "So am I S.O.L.?" and his reply was "YES, try some Loctite" like I'm really going to trust a stipped bolt on my AM rig I build specifically for faster, harsher terrain. I was told "WE NO LONGER WARRANTY SUNLINE MTB GOODS"

    Still in shock but very calm I told them I always give their products great reviews but I was going to be brutally honest about this one and was told "Go for it".

    Having just nearly finished my new build and dealing with 15 different manufactures I was shocked to see, what I thought was a solid company, completely dis-own their line of products. Needless to say I will be returning my set of SixSixOne body armour before that ship sinks too.

    Just a warning to anyone considering any SUNLINE mtb products - DO IT AT YOUR OWN RISK - they DO NOT stand behind their products.
    Last edited by trojans1993; 03-23-2012 at 09:53 AM.

  2. #2
    Team Chilidog!
    Reputation: Stripes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    7,197
    Thanks for the head's up. It looks like 661 doesn't have Sunline for MTB anymore, just motos.

    Not too concerned about the aluminum handlebars... but the stem definitely bugs me.

  3. #3
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    670
    I thought Sunline went out of business.

  4. #4
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    710
    I was going to buy a sunline 50mm stem instead of my kona jerk, good thing I didn't.

    Sent from my Nexus S 4G

  5. #5
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    205
    Quote Originally Posted by trojans1993 View Post
    using some fresh Finish Line Teflon grease and my Park torque wrench. I very carefully and evenly applied torque to each of the 4 bolts 1 pound at a time until I was at about 7 Nm and one of the top bolts stripped. I couldn't believe it, but the bolt thread looked fine so I swapped bolts and found the actual stem is stripped.".
    I have a feeling you were generating more torque than required here. You shouldn't grease anything before using a torque wrench. Anti seize - well.. maybe.. yes... Grease/oil - no. You likely applied almost 50% too much force. The lesson here is not to use grease or any other lube unless specified with a torque wrench to hit a desired clamping force. This isn't a warranty issue. Sorry.

    Most manufacturers would likely take care of you but as toys get more expensive this can really get you into trouble.

    A.
    Last edited by neex; 03-23-2012 at 12:16 PM.

  6. #6
    mtbr member
    Reputation: trojans1993's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    481
    Quote Originally Posted by neex View Post
    The lesson here is not to use grease with a torque wrench.

    A.
    Are you sure you know what a torque wrench is?

  7. #7
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    205
    Quote Originally Posted by trojans1993 View Post
    Are you sure you know what a torque wrench is?
    Are you sure you know how much friction can be reduced by lubricant? Go ahead - research and take me to task. I'm just trying to help not start a war. I'm sure we have some mechanical engineers that could give us more support for reduced friction coefficients in this application. For the most part this won't be an issue but the OP is likely talking about aluminum in which case exceeding the torque values can very easily cause a strip/shear situation. As for me knowing torque wrenches - I have used them over 20 years and use them regularly. I've learned the hard way a few times and researched this quite a bit. Go ahead and lube your threads without reducing your torque values just don't cry about crappy warranty support when science breaks your stuff.


    **apologies for possibly sounded like a vinegar-pissing-elitist-snob** just trying to help seriously and wrecked the valve cover studs on 2 different vehicles learning the hard way with proper torque values and greased fasteners**


    look at the bottom table as a reference here

    A.
    Last edited by neex; 04-15-2012 at 09:07 PM.

  8. #8
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    3,200
    Quote Originally Posted by trojans1993 View Post
    I am so pissed off right now I can't even believe it. I'm just finishing up my hard earned Tracer 2 custom build and the last piece I needed was a nice AM style stem. I liked the weight and style of the Sunline V1 65mm so I went ahead an purchased one. Although I read about a few issues of people stripping bolts, most of the reviews were positive and I chalked the bad ones up to over tightening.

    I received the stem and it looked like a well build piece, so like all other parts I install, I was very careful with faceplate spacing and using some fresh Finish Line Teflon grease and my Park torque wrench. I very carefully and evenly applied torque to each of the 4 bolts 1 pound at a time until I was at about 7 Nm and one of the top bolts stripped. I couldn't believe it, but the bolt thread looked fine so I swapped bolts and found the actual stem is stripped.

    Having many other Sunline and SixSixOne products that I'm very happy with, I was cofident they would stand behind their product. I WAS VERY WRONG. I just got off the phone with their Customer Service/Warranty manager and was straight up told "we no longer support Sunline hardgoods". After my initial shock, I asked (very calm and polite the whole time) well what do I do then and said "So am I S.O.L.?" and his reply was "YES, try some Loctite" like I'm really going to trust a stipped bolt on my AM rig I build specifically for faster, harsher terrain. I was told "WE NO LONGER WARRANTY SUNLINE MTB GOODS"

    Still in shock but very calm I told them I always give their products great reviews but I was going to be brutally honest about this one and was told "Go for it".

    Having just nearly finished my new build and dealing with 15 different manufactures I was shocked to see, what I thought was a solid company, completely dis-own their line of products. Needless to say I will be returning my set of SixSixOne body armour before that ship sinks too.

    Just a warning to anyone considering any SUNLINE mtb products - DO IT AT YOUR OWN RISK - they DO NOT stand behind their products.
    Stripped threads is total BS on a new stem. .sucks

    what torque wrench do you use?

  9. #9
    mtbr member
    Reputation: trojans1993's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    481
    Quote Originally Posted by neex View Post
    Are you sure you know how much friction can be reduced by lubricant? Go ahead - research and take me to task. I'm just trying to help not start a war. I'm sure we have some mechanical engineers that could give us more support for reduced friction coefficients in this application. For the most pat this won't be an issue but the OP is likely talking about aluminum in which case exceeding the torque values can very easily cause a strip/shear situation. As for me knowing torque wrenches - I have used them over 20 years and use them regularly. I've learned the hard way a few times and researched this quite a bit. Go ahead and lube your threads without reducing your torque values just don't cry about crappy warranty support when science breaks your stuff.

    A.
    Not trying to start a war either just confused, so you are saying either:

    1. Don't use grease on critical threads with aluminum

    2. Ignore the printed torque specifications

    3. Install the bolt without grease, check for proper torque, remove bolt, grease bolt, re-insert to 50% torque???

    Sorry, just frustrated and need somthing to vent at. I'm on my way out the door climbing in Joshua Tree for the weekend hopefully that will help. Was supposed to leave 2 hours ago but this pissed me off so much I had to write.

  10. #10
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    205
    Quote Originally Posted by trojans1993 View Post
    Not trying to start a war either just confused, so you are saying either:

    1. Don't use grease on critical threads with aluminum

    2. Ignore the printed torque specifications

    3. Install the bolt without grease, check for proper torque, remove bolt, grease bolt, re-insert to 50% torque???

    Sorry, just frustrated and need somthing to vent at. I'm on my way out the door climbing in Joshua Tree for the weekend hopefully that will help. Was supposed to leave 2 hours ago but this pissed me off so much I had to write.
    Didn't mean to get you riled. Sorry. Generally speaking if the manuf doesn't specify lubing the threads, assume dry torque values. Yes, it can be confusing and is significantly more important in softer alloys or dealing with carbon, etc. Enjoy the climb. Hopefully the fasteners failed rather than the alu threads. Either way, maybe the LBS will fix it or a local shop. I'd retap it if you were close to me.


    btw - 2nd look shows that RF and Thomson specify lubed torque values so I guess it truly depends on whether or not Sunline does also. The manuf will have a compensated value depending on the lube or lacking thereof that they're recommending. Assembly lube will level the playing field if trying to match a dry value with a lubricant...
    A.
    Last edited by neex; 03-23-2012 at 01:17 PM.

  11. #11
    canuck
    Reputation: Aaron D's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    707
    Quote Originally Posted by neex View Post
    I have a feeling you were generating more torque than required here. You shouldn't grease anything before using a torque wrench. Anti seize - well.. maybe.. yes... Grease/oil - no. You likely applied almost 50% too much force. The lesson here is not to use grease or any other lube unless specified with a torque wrench to hit a desired clamping force. This isn't a warranty issue. Sorry.

    Most manufacturers would likely take care of you but as toys get more expensive this can really get you into trouble.

    A.

    I agree. no lube.

  12. #12
    BLAH BLAH
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    460
    Are you guys serious? no grease? Unless otherwise noted the torque specs given for bike parts are for greased hardware. Stem bolts should be greased and 7nm on a greased bolt shouldn't strip out a stem.
    Whats this line for?

  13. #13
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Lopaka's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    335
    You "pulled" the threads out of the stem you didn't strip them. Pulling the threads means one of three things happened. The stem alloy was too soft for the torque required. (I don't think so). The fastener was machined undersized. (doubtful). You over tightened the fastener. (bingo)

    I have two Sunline stems and they are unsurpassed in quality. They are almost works of art regardless of who makes, markets or warranties them. The rep should have had the balls to straight up tell you that you screwed up.

    A quality torque wrench is subject to calibration errors. I spend lots of cash to keep my torque wrenches calibrated. A poor quality torque wrench is worse than none at all. It can lead you to believe you are applying the correct torque while you are destroying your part.

    By the way, I never lube stem threads.

    Technical issues aside, I feel your pain. I have made the exact mistake more than once. My recommendation: Install a helicoil and your stem will be better than new.
    Consciousness, that annoying time between bike rides.

  14. #14
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    3,981
    Quote Originally Posted by trojans1993 View Post
    I am so pissed off right now I can't even believe it. I'm just finishing up my hard earned Tracer 2 custom build and the last piece I needed was a nice AM style stem. I liked the weight and style of the Sunline V1 65mm so I went ahead an purchased one. Although I read about a few issues of people stripping bolts, most of the reviews were positive and I chalked the bad ones up to over tightening.

    I received the stem and it looked like a well build piece, so like all other parts I install, I was very careful with faceplate spacing and using some fresh Finish Line Teflon grease and my Park torque wrench. I very carefully and evenly applied torque to each of the 4 bolts 1 pound at a time until I was at about 7 Nm and one of the top bolts stripped. I couldn't believe it, but the bolt thread looked fine so I swapped bolts and found the actual stem is stripped.

    Having many other Sunline and SixSixOne products that I'm very happy with, I was cofident they would stand behind their product. I WAS VERY WRONG. I just got off the phone with their Customer Service/Warranty manager and was straight up told "we no longer support Sunline hardgoods". After my initial shock, I asked (very calm and polite the whole time) well what do I do then and said "So am I S.O.L.?" and his reply was "YES, try some Loctite" like I'm really going to trust a stipped bolt on my AM rig I build specifically for faster, harsher terrain. I was told "WE NO LONGER WARRANTY SUNLINE MTB GOODS"

    Still in shock but very calm I told them I always give their products great reviews but I was going to be brutally honest about this one and was told "Go for it".

    Having just nearly finished my new build and dealing with 15 different manufactures I was shocked to see, what I thought was a solid company, completely dis-own their line of products. Needless to say I will be returning my set of SixSixOne body armour before that ship sinks too.

    Just a warning to anyone considering any SUNLINE mtb products - DO IT AT YOUR OWN RISK - they DO NOT stand behind their products.
    tagged for future ref.
    roccowt.
    rocnbikemeld

  15. #15
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    26
    +1 for the helicoil. Very common for this type of situation in engineering.

  16. #16
    Five is right out
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    3,177
    There were reports of Sunline going bust recently, hence all the stems, chainguides and handlebars going on major discounts from lots of the online retaillers.

  17. #17
    Bro Mountainbiker
    Reputation: Sheepo5669's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    3,501
    What do you put on a bolt that is seeing some surface rust in the threads? I figured grease would stop the rust but I am afraid to over torque.

    Loctite is basically a thread lubricant too.

    Do you just install em bone dry?
    Raised in a Chicken-Coop by Chickens

  18. #18
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    1,332
    they're right, it was the combination of grease AND following the torque spec. if you use grease, you have to use lower torque because of the reduced thread friction.

    personally, I use grease and ignore the torque specs.
    whatever...

  19. #19
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    205
    I would be comfortable with a little antiseize or maybe triflow before using grease on a threaded fastener. Depending on where the fastener is going it may or may not be a matter of splitting hairs vs trashing parts. Hand tight and then a 1/4" will almost never fail. A properly set up and calibrated torque wrench is a great tool but can still give you misleading results if not careful. 99 x out of 100 on a bicycle it won't matter but when it does it's never convenient and rarely cheap. I still remember how pissed I was when I trashed a rear d direct mount thread/hole. That lesson taught me to pay attention.

    To the OP - if the design of your stem is such that it's a trhough hole, you may be able to put a nut on a lengthened bolt to cheaply solve the problem (yes - a little ghetto rigged). Timeserts and helicoils are good options although I think I would +1 size the bolt and retap it myself before putting in an insert.

    A.
    Last edited by neex; 03-24-2012 at 06:56 PM.

  20. #20
    mtbr member
    Reputation: calialx1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    44
    thanks for the heads up!

  21. #21
    mtbr member
    Reputation: cigarlover's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    246
    Can you re-tap the hole ??? and it's amazing what variables can affect torque values. It's a bit more precise than just grabbing a wrench and start pulling. Coming from an industry where we have to torque everything...

  22. #22
    BLAH BLAH
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    460
    Quote Originally Posted by Sheepo5669 View Post
    What do you put on a bolt that is seeing some surface rust in the threads? I figured grease would stop the rust but I am afraid to over torque.

    Loctite is basically a thread lubricant too.

    Do you just install em bone dry?
    Grease the bolt! I am telling you most torque specs on bike parts are for greased threads. Dry threads give unreliable torque readings. There are variances in the actual torque level depending on what grease you use but at most even the slickest of lubes would change the reading by 20% and thats extreme, we're talking lubricants that are crazy slippery. Look up stem installation instructions from the company they all say to apply a small amount of grease on the threads. Here is a link to Thomson's instructions if you dont believe me (read step 3). http://www.bikethomson.com/blog/wp-c...X2-BMXFull.pdf There may be stems out there that dont call for it but it is far from the normal if anything its abnormal.

    OP your not the first person to have a problem with the threads letting go on a sunline stem, I bet you got it on a discount though... I hope anyway since they are no longer supported as you found out. I am have been really happy with my Easton Havoc stem if you are looking for a replacement. For the record they also tell you to grease the threads for installation.

    You're all welcome to flame me if you want but I think you are insane to think that manufactures dont equate lube into their torque specs when the instructions say to lube the threads.
    Last edited by e-luder; 03-27-2012 at 09:51 PM.
    Whats this line for?

  23. #23
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Lopaka's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    335
    Quote Originally Posted by e-luder View Post
    Grease the bolt! I am telling you most torque specs on bike parts are for greased threads. Dry threads give unreliable torque readings. There are variances in the actual torque level depending on what grease you use but at most even the slickest of lubes would change the reading by 20% and thats extreme, we're talking lubricants that are crazy slippery. Look up stem installation instructions from the company they all say to apply a small amount of grease on the threads. Here is a link to Thomson's instructions if you dont believe me (read step 3). http://www.bikethomson.com/blog/wp-c...X2-BMXFull.pdf There may be stems out there that dont call for it but it is far from the normal if anything its abnormal.

    OP your not the first person to have a problem with the threads letting go on a sunline stem, I bet you got it on a discount though... I hope anyway since they are no longer supported as you found out. I am have been really happy with my Easton Havoc stem if you are looking for a replacement. For the record they also tell you to grease the threads for installation.

    You're all welcome to flame me if you want but I think you are insane to think that manufactures dont equate lube into their torque specs when the instructions say to lube the threads.
    Great link. Proves the point that 7Nm is too much on a lubed face plate fastener.
    Consciousness, that annoying time between bike rides.

  24. #24
    mtbr member
    Reputation: trojans1993's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    481
    OP here,

    Thanks for the replies and suggestions. Sorry for the initial rant, but a long work week and dealing with some issues already had me ticked and the stem issue just got to me. A very nice weekend of climbing in Joshua Tree puts things in a whole new perspective.

    I really didn't want to give up on what otherwise looks like a nice stem so I took it to my local machine shop for an expert opinion and discovered there was still almost half the threads in the back end of the stem of the problem bolt hole. His opinion was the side wall was to thin to helicoil and I should still be able to get a sufficient grab with the remaining threads if I had a longer bolt.

    IMO the problem is the stem ships with bolts that are too short. With a perfectly spaced face plate the 20mm supplied bolts only utilize about half of the available threads (about 5mm) making them more susceptible to stripping or pulling out the threads than if they used all ~10mm's. I'm going to get (or make) some ~24mm long bolts and see if I can get sufficient torque (lighter than spec'd this time) and see how it goes, although the X4 or Havoc are still on standby if it doesn't pass the test.

  25. #25
    BLAH BLAH
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    460
    Quote Originally Posted by Lopaka View Post
    Great link. Proves the point that 7Nm is too much on a lubed face plate fastener.
    No it doesn't, Thomson stems require pretty low torque and actually crack the face plate if over torqued. It was just an easy to find example. here is Truvativ's http://www.sram.com/sites/default/fi..._and_stems.pdf

    Step 2 tells you to grease the bolts, step 6 tells you to torque to 7-9nm. The threads on the OP's stem most likely had an issue. What it does prove is to read the instructions.
    Whats this line for?

Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •