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WalMart bike kicked my Ibis's ass!!

16K views 96 replies 52 participants last post by  hardtail05 
#1 ·
Ok so I go riding with my brother in Santee CA, I haven't ridden in that area before and my brother is telling me all about his $110 WalMart bike that they mismarked and he got for $65, which is about what my tires cost, he has been bragging about how good he is, I've been riding for many years and have brought my Ibis Silk Ti down, it has a nice Bomber Z2 fork on it, I'm confident I can ride circles around him. Well, we start going down this trail and a good speed, I'm thinking he is doing allright, then he startes going faster, and the terrain gets extremely rough, lots of baby heads everywhere, it's like a cobblestone highway. Well by now my bro is pulling away from me, sitting down and cruising like its a Sunday cruise, I'm using all my strength and skill trying to keep my bike straight, its bouncing all over these large cobblestones, I can't believe it, this can't happen, so about halfway down this trail I yell stop!! and I switch bikes with him. I climb on this Wally special, the handle bars are way up in the air and ultra tal front end, felt like riding a chopper, i swear the bike was almost as heavy as a Harley. I take his bike down the trail now, with its giant tractor weight tires, and to my disbelief, this heavy tank cheap ass bike, floats down the trail like a caddy!!! His heavy bike doesn't deflect on the rocks, the front wheel is like an immense gyroscope, nothing moves it! In the meantime my bro is laughing at my expensive bike, cause it totally sucks on this trail, and he is 100% correct. So I guess the moral of this story is...........? :(
 
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#6 ·
Not me!

See I dont have that problem I ride A Redline SS I just blow past anyone riding a wallyworld special...But in all fairness most of the riders who have them here arn't really pushing hard too bad I'd love to smoke em! :cool:
 
#7 ·
Your comment about weight and defelection...

Itripper said:
Ok so I go riding with my brother in Santee CA, I haven't ridden in that area before and my brother is telling me all about his $110 WalMart bike that they mismarked and he got for $65, which is about what my tires cost, he has been bragging about how good he is, I've been riding for many years and have brought my Ibis Silk Ti down, it has a nice Bomber Z2 fork on it, I'm confident I can ride circles around him. Well, we start going down this trail and a good speed, I'm thinking he is doing allright, then he startes going faster, and the terrain gets extremely rough, lots of baby heads everywhere, it's like a cobblestone highway. Well by now my bro is pulling away from me, sitting down and cruising like its a Sunday cruise, I'm using all my strength and skill trying to keep my bike straight, its bouncing all over these large cobblestones, I can't believe it, this can't happen, so about halfway down this trail I yell stop!! and I switch bikes with him. I climb on this Wally special, the handle bars are way up in the air and ultra tal front end, felt like riding a chopper, i swear the bike was almost as heavy as a Harley. I take his bike down the trail now, with its giant tractor weight tires, and to my disbelief, this heavy tank cheap ass bike, floats down the trail like a caddy!!! His heavy bike doesn't deflect on the rocks, the front wheel is like an immense gyroscope, nothing moves it! In the meantime my bro is laughing at my expensive bike, cause it totally sucks on this trail, and he is 100% correct. So I guess the moral of this story is...........? :(
has some validity. Until recently I had a 24 lb. Superlight along with my Bullit. I've had this particular Bullit built in configurations from 28.5--32 lbs. The Bullit has repeatedly proven to be a better all-around trail bike for me on anything but the smoothest of trails--and I don't mean freeriding or DH. This lighter built-up Bullit is just much more pleasant to ride and doesn't get pinged all over the trail and is well worth the extra effort to pedal its weight up the hills. Now I wouldn't go out and buy a dual suspension Huffy, Pacific, etc., but a heavier duty mountain bike does have some advantages over a lightweight racer boy XC bike on rougher trails for sure. I'd like to see how long that Huffy is going to last with that kind of treatment. The forks and shocks that come on those level bikes are downright scary looking as far as design and quality are concerned.
 
#8 ·
So true... I have a Bullit too with triple clamp 170mm forks. This bike has edged out ALL of my other MTBikes as the one I ride ON EVERYTHING. With the 5th it is amazing and it makes every trail easier. Yes I said it even uphills. Now it is way way way slower on uphills but I can climb everything I could with my XC fs and ht bikes. I can climb tech sections on the Bullit the other bikes couldn't.

I don't race so I am selling my other bikes becuase I don't need them anymore.
 
#9 ·
You already explained why the cheap bike decends better. High handlebar, slack head tube, and big tires. I have an Ibis Ripley and a Cannondale Jekyll. I can ride my usual trails faster on the Ibis because it is faster for XC. The speed lost on down hills is more than made up on flats and uphills. But there are a few technical decents I know of that are down right scary on the Ibis, but I could just about sit back and eat a sandwich while riding the Jekyll.
 
#10 ·
All walmart bikes have SUPER soft suspension, all of them. Mostly becaseu they are made for riding of the curbing max. They ride nice, but try and get the bike to fly, its scary.

Also I used to beat the living piss out of my walmart bike. My new biek I am a little easier on.

In no way is a walmart better than a good bike. Walmart bieks sucks. Screw them all.
 
#12 ·
That's scary...

As others have mentioned, next time ride the trail in the opposite direction and see who's laughing at the end of the day. Excess weight can be an advantage going down, but it's a big disadvantage going up.

However, if I understand you correctly, your brother is riding extremely fast over extremely rough terrain, on an extremely inexpensive bike, correct? My concern would be, how long is it going to last before something fails catastrophically? Such a failure could easily result in a serious injury.
 
#13 ·
Something doesn't add up there. What type of suspension do you have? Have you tuned your suspension correctly?

High speed hits are all about the damping and I'd imagine that the wally world bike would have pretty simple (friction :D ) damping.

Or maybe your brother is a really good rider......
 
#14 ·
Hehe

jkittlesen said:
I have a nice bike and a Wally bike to beat and work on, it's fun with both!
i've been thinking about getting a chepo fs bike to beat on, they r like so cool, everyone on my street has em :p don't think i'll bother wasting the cash though

i had a cheepo fs bike, but it wore out and was not worth fixing. those things are like "disposable" MTB's
 
#15 ·
Nobody has really explained it yet so...

When something has a greater mass it takes more force to move it. The WalMart bike with a higher weight will take the same hit at the same speed as a lighter bike and it won't react to the bump as much as the lighter bike will. This is regardless of the quality of the suspension to a very large degree.

The most basic way to imagine this in physics terms is to think of two pool balls hitting each other. They both deflect equally. Now imagine a bowling ball and a ping pong ball hitting each other. The bowling ball will not be affected by the impact with the ping pong ball.

A heavier bike just reacts less to terrain.

Moral? Two parts: 1) You choose the right bike for what you want out of your riding experience. If you want to take those rough downhills more like that WalMart bike did get a heavier bike. 2) Think about the moral again in a few months when you both have ridden that trail several more times and you see how your respective bikes have weathered.
 
#16 ·
sliderhouserules said:
Nobody has really explained it yet so...

When something has a greater mass it takes more force to move it. The WalMart bike with a higher weight will take the same hit at the same speed as a lighter bike and it won't react to the bump as much as the lighter bike will. This is regardless of the quality of the suspension to a very large degree.

The most basic way to imagine this in physics terms is to think of two pool balls hitting each other. They both deflect equally. Now imagine a bowling ball and a ping pong ball hitting each other. The bowling ball will not be affected by the impact with the ping pong ball.

A heavier bike just reacts less to terrain.

Moral? Two parts: 1) You choose the right bike for what you want out of your riding experience. If you want to take those rough downhills more like that WalMart bike did get a heavier bike. 2) Think about the moral again in a few months when you both have ridden that trail several more times and you see how your respective bikes have weathered.
Close, but not quite right. When you hit a bump, either the ground gives or the bike & rider give. Most of the time it's the bike&rider :D .

Now the object with less mass can move quicker than the object with more mass (inertia). This is why un-sprung weight is critical to suspension performance.

Your bike shoud kick huffy butt in the suspension department.
 
#17 · (Edited)
Steve71 said:
Close, but not quite right. When you hit a bump, either the ground gives or the bike & rider give. Most of the time it's the bike&rider.
This says nothing about a suspension system that's at least workable. If you're looking at how a bike reacts to terrain you can effectively ignore the rider factor and just look at the forces acting on the bike.

When a bike hits a bump the front tire has a force exerted against it by the ground. That force is either transferred directly to the frame (in the case of a rigid fork), or a suspension fork absorbs some of the energy converting it from kinetic to thermal, dissipating it as heat. The back tire/suspension is no different. In the case of any kind of suspension, some of the force is still exerted against the frame. There is no perfect suspension designed that can absorb 100% of the force exerted against it without transferring some of that force to the frame. Since there is no suspension beyond the suspension (huh?) the force exerted against the frame results in movement of the frame.

However, the frame exerts an equal and opposite force in two ways. The gravity is exerting force downward which is what brings your bike back down after a hit has forced it upward. Also, the frame has a tendency to want to stay where it was so it resists the force trying to move it with simple inertia. A heavier frame will exert a greater force in resistance to the force trying to move it than a lighter frame. This actually causes the suspension to have to absorb more of the force originally exerted against the bike by the ground.

Of course this all happens pretty much instantaneously, but the plain language way to say it is, if you have two bikes with comparable geometries and close to equivalent suspension systems but different frame weights the heavier frame will react with less movement to the same hits from the ground. If the WalMart bike has a decent suspension (somebody said they felt pretty soft) and workable geometry then this factor (weight) will play a larger role in how well the bike takes hits.
 
#19 ·
Steve71 said:
Were talking 10 lb difference here. Unless the rock gives, the bikes move about the same amount (suspension aside).
The original post begs to differ. 10 pounds is actually a large amount when you're talking about 25 lb bikes. That's 40% more!

Why does a Bullit take hits on a descent so much better than a Superlight? Geometry? Geometry has more effect on suspension efficiency than its ability to absorb bumps (within reason, I'm just saying this is a smaller factor). Travel? Yes, to a large degree. Frame weight? Well, this site is showing that a Bullit frame is nearly twice as heavy as a Superlight frame (~2500g vs. 4160g). I'm venturing that this factor plays the largest role of the three.
 
#20 ·
To further that thought...

sliderhouserules said:
The original post begs to differ. 10 pounds is actually a large amount when you're talking about 25 lb bikes. That's 40% more!

Why does a Bullit take hits on a descent so much better than a Superlight? Geometry? Geometry has more effect on suspension efficiency than its ability to absorb bumps (within reason, I'm just saying this is a smaller factor). Travel? Yes, to a large degree. Frame weight? Well, this site is showing that a Bullit frame is nearly twice as heavy as a Superlight frame (~2500g vs. 4160g). I'm venturing that this factor plays the largest role of the three.
Now we're all talking some generalization here, because obviously there are lots of other factors that come into play in some of the comparisons presented here, as you said. Since you touched on the Bullit/Superlight comparison that I made, and also mentioned geometry, I'll add that I had a 5" travel Psylo Race (air) on that Superlight which really slackens the head angle--so the geometry was not as much of a factor as it might normally be with a Superlight and 80mm fork.
 
#21 · (Edited)
Er,...you wouldn't happen to work for Wally's would you?

...This is beginning to sound a lot like an ad. :rolleyes:

Then again, as one reply rather boldly stated, in so many words, having an expensive bike, does not gaurantee skill or physical conditioning.

I read somewhere that on a road bike, 2/3 of your energy is spent fighting the wind resistance against your body.

I guess you could say that even a larger percentage than that, goes to fighting terrain and gravity on an mtb.

The percentages certainly go up concerniong levels of skill and physical condidtioning, but it sounds like this was a trail he was showing you, and not only knew what was up ahead obstacle wise, but knew a good line to take as well.

I seriously doubt the bike he had would hang with the Silk Ti on a long climb or endurence ride, given 2 equal riders.

Two totally different bikes, made for different terrain.
 
#22 ·
sliderhouserules said:
The original post begs to differ. 10 pounds is actually a large amount when you're talking about 25 lb bikes. That's 40% more!

Why does a Bullit take hits on a descent so much better than a Superlight? Geometry? Geometry has more effect on suspension efficiency than its ability to absorb bumps (within reason, I'm just saying this is a smaller factor). Travel? Yes, to a large degree. Frame weight? Well, this site is showing that a Bullit frame is nearly twice as heavy as a Superlight frame (~2500g vs. 4160g). I'm venturing that this factor plays the largest role of the three.
Well I stand by my original statement.

Provided the bikes don't leave the ground, they are going to take the same (vertical) path over bumps regardless of weight (assuming they are both on the same line). Think about it, unless the ground gives, or the bikes gets air, they have no other option but the track the ground.

Once again, the bike with less unsprung mass will have the potential for better suspension performance. But this is pretty small advantage when you consider the difference in damping (huffy vs Ibis).

The reason a DH bike has better big hit capability is due to the suspension travel and the size and (lower) air pressue of the tires. Not to mention the bikes (frame, fork and wheels) flex a lot less which lets the suspension perform better. Frame flex is basicly a an un-damped spring.
 
#23 ·
Ha

I know my bike is better and has a nice bomber z2 atom race on (80mm) it. It does well on most trails, but I was just surprised to see on this one particular trail the Wally bike was perfect for, and my bike was not suited for at all. It does make me think about building a heavier long suspension bike tho. When i built my Ibis I was riding a lot of fast twisty singletracks in Tennessee, those were a blast and my Ibis was perfect for them. Now I'm riding a lot of CA desert and semi arid trails in Mojave area. The trails here are sandy,gravely, and very rough in some spots, lots more severe up and downhills then Tenn. I wish I had at least a longer travel front shock for slacker angle and suspension. All I know is I will never judge a Wally bike again, it was a lot of fun to ride on that trail, and I would judge its weight to be at least 40 lbs
 
#24 ·
Itripper said:
I know my bike is better and has a nice bomber z2 atom race on (80mm) it. It does well on most trails, but I was just surprised to see on this one particular trail the Wally bike was perfect for, and my bike was not suited for at all. It does make me think about building a heavier long suspension bike tho. When i built my Ibis I was riding a lot of fast twisty singletracks in Tennessee, those were a blast and my Ibis was perfect for them. Now I'm riding a lot of CA desert and semi arid trails in Mojave area. The trails here are sandy,gravely, and very rough in some spots, lots more severe up and downhills then Tenn. I wish I had at least a longer travel front shock for slacker angle and suspension. All I know is I will never judge a Wally bike again, it was a lot of fun to ride on that trail, and I would judge its weight to be at least 40 lbs
It ain't the one trail, my guess it's the front fork. The atom is a light weight flexy fork. When it hits rocks it twists and flexes like crazy. I'm guessing the Walmart bike fork is built a lot heavier and flexes less. Plus tire size has a whole bunch to do with it bigger tires, better traction, less slipping off rocks and stuff. So you got a fancy cross country bike and they don't do downhills. But if you figure the time you save going uphill it will be more time than the downhill bike will gain on you on the downhill.

One thing for sure is I wouldn't trust no Wallmart bike on a downhill unless I had personally gone over it. It's amazing how poorly those bikes are set up, with stuff not lined up and cables pinched and so forth. The bikes are set up by teenagers or clueless people. Plus the stuff is so cheap it won't hold up long for heavy trail use.
 
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