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  1. #1
    All Lefty's, all the time Moderator
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    TSA Airport full body scan question....

    So I flew out to Vegas last week, and upon entering the airport, went through the whole body scan booth thing.

    Ended up having to sit and wait for several minutes while others went on by me after their scans. Got kinda freaky, even though I had nothing to hide when I realized there I was, on the screen, with a big red square on a portion of my body.

    So the guy who was administering the Freedom Pat-down finally comes over to me and says there's something on my scan, and they need to feel me up. I'm wearing bike socks,and shorts, and it's on my ankle/shin area. He looks and realizes how silly this all is, but does his job anyway. Have to give him credit, he was very polite, respectful and apologetic based on the circumstances.

    He finds nothing, and sends me on my way.

    So my question is, how are these things looking for whatever they are? Anyone know? Is it density differences, metal, what? I have no metal anywhere, not that leg, or elsewhere. Not even and old break in a bone without pins or screws. All I can think of is many pedal whacks to my shins over the years have lead to a density change from all the bruises. Otherwise, I'm flummoxed.
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  2. #2
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    I think he was jealous of your manly biking legs. He probably just wanted to feel them up and compare them to his.

    In all seriousness, I think you'd have a easier time trying to understand Einstein's Theory of Relativity in mathematical form than to understand the TSA screening process.

  3. #3
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    Well, at least you were not wearing a kilt.

    No idea how these things work, but if they did pick up on differences in minor variatoins bone density, then wouldn't anyone who has ever broken or fractured a bone set off a flag?

    Actually, I just did a light little background reading. The full body scanners don't seem to look under the skin, only under clothing. They use reflected radio waves, or reflected x-rays, rather than radiation that goes through the body. So these things can't pick up bone density changes or anything hidden inside a body.

    So it's probably just the machine screwing up while still serving its main purpose as a prop in security theatre.

  4. #4
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    I was amazed that the airport security didn't beep on my Ti plate or 8 SS screws...

    Should I be worried?

    I've always found that security at McCarran is very, very tight.

  5. #5
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    Last time I flew about a year ago, those full body scanners were only just starting to be installed. I did not go through them. Nor would I go through them now.

    Considering the radiation exposure you get just from flying, and considering that radiation exposure is cumulative across a lifetime, I'd really rather avoid extra radiation exposure when I can. Considering that I've had cancer once already and that many of my checkups involved various medical imaging (not all of which involved radiation exposure, thankfully), I'd rather do what I can to avoid as much extra exposure as possible.

    That link about the kilt-wearing fellas getting the pat downs was hilarious. I own (and wear) a couple of kilts and I had not thought about how to deal with airport security if I chose to wear one.

  6. #6
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    With radiation. Don't get me started on the TSAs illegally, unconstitutional groping of children, elderly, your wife, your mother, your children and of coarse yourself. Or how much they spend on those scanners that'r outdated, dangerous, and un effective. Or how many gropers they hire have criminal records. Like NFL?, Well get ready to be groped again. That's right. The T in TSA stands for tranportation. So why are they at football games? 16 million people a year go to football games, and who pays for that? Your tax dollars. What's next, baseball, shopping malls, H.S. proms? Even police or FBI agents aren't allowed to search without probable cause, but the TSA does it all day long. That's right your guilty until proven innocent. Not even Russia or hitler's Germany did these things. Just sayin' Our freedoms are being stripped from us in the name of "safety". It's really a joke. We're more likely to die from a lightning strike or a bee sting than from terrorism, look it up, so why aren't the TSA agents running around holding tall metal rods and bug spray to keep us safe? The TSA should be dismantled, it's founder has said this also, but they will just grow, and take away more of our "freedoms" unless we, as a people, demand otherwise, so I have little hope.

    rant over.
    Last edited by theMeat; 09-19-2011 at 08:40 AM.
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  7. #7
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    Make sure to do a writeup for MTBR if you ever wear a kilt through a body search

    I'd missed the bit in the OP about Vegas. I flew from there years ago before the full body scans. I'd just picked up a new full face helmet in Utah and carried it on as hand luggage. The TSA woman was completely mystified as to what it was and couldn't seem to understand why anyone would need something like that for a bicycle.

    @Todd. If you look up how metal detectors work, you will see that there is a degree of 'tunability' for different types of metal. Maybe Ti medical parts are common enough (and rare enough in dangerous items) that the TSA had a rare attack of common sense and decided to tune out Ti.

  8. #8
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    Sweet, hit a hot button issue

    That kilt link is a good one, thanks Womble!

    I've flown a few times this year, and always just went through the metal detector. However, being that I flew in 9/11, and there was a "valid terrorist threat" I guess they upped the ante.

    I flew out of Rochester NY that day, and all folks went through the zapper that I saw.

    Actually, McCarran security was light comparatively.

    No idea on what it saw, nothing but nasty, scarred, manly biker legs for them to play with....

    So this is a radiation based scan? Suckfull, I avoid that crap, even at the dentist. Too bad they force us to do this now.
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  9. #9
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    I recently went through one, and had a belt on with a plastic buckle (which I wear to airports on purpose so I don't have to take it off). In the scanner the guy told me I have to take it off anyway. So, I guess it's not metal that sets it off.
    But I had a penny in a cargo pocket I couldn't feel, but sure enough, I got the same big red square on that part of my leg in the image.

  10. #10
    All Lefty's, all the time Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by smilinsteve View Post
    I got the same big red square on that part of my leg in the image.
    Yep, that was me, minus the penny. Now I'm going, WTF? What's going on with my leg? Bare skin and wool sock was all that was there....

    Makes me wonder if I should chat with my doctor biking pal, just what do these things see, you know??
    This is a Pugs not some carbon wannabee pretzel wagon!!

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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by womble View Post
    Make sure to do a writeup for MTBR if you ever wear a kilt through a body search
    I might just do that. I'm headed to Costa Rica in the spring and might just wear my Sport Kilt hiking kilt (it's actually a good candidate for the plane - velcro attachment, elastic waist, no metal bits, light and comfy) on the plane. At least I'll be leaving out of Houston - I've flown out of there a few times and the TSA agents have been pretty polite. I flew out of Dallas last year and there was a particularly surly TSA agent that really seemed to have it out for my wife.

    So this is a radiation based scan? Suckfull, I avoid that crap, even at the dentist. Too bad they force us to do this now.
    Yep...it's not quite as intense as an x-ray (I seem to recall hearing that the radiation output on those things was dialed back at some point early in their use), but it is a full body exposure whereas most x-rays cover pretty small areas.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by NateHawk View Post

    Yep...it's not quite as intense as an x-ray (I seem to recall hearing that the radiation output on those things was dialed back at some point early in their use), but it is a full body exposure whereas most x-rays cover pretty small areas.
    From TSA FAQ's:

    Q. Is imaging technology safe?
    A. Advanced imaging technology is safe and meets national health and safety standards. Backscatter technology was evaluated by the Food and Drug Administrationís (FDA) Center for Devices and Radiological Health (CDRH), the National Institute for Standards and Technology (NIST), and the Johns Hopkins University Applied Physics Laboratory (APL). For comparison, a single scan using backscatter technology produces exposure equivalent to two minutes of flying on an airplane, and the energy projected by millimeter wave technology is thousands of times less than a cell phone transmission.

    TSA: Frequently Asked Questions

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by MendonCycleSmith View Post
    So this is a radiation based scan? Suckfull, I avoid that crap, even at the dentist. Too bad they force us to do this now.
    According to Wikpedia and any other semi-informative site, there are two types of scanner. One uses low power x-ray and the other uses high frequency radio. So they are radiation based, but the same could be said of shining a flashlight at someone (in so far as there is light being radiated from the filament).

    If they're measuring backscatter/reflected radiation, it stands to reason that they would only need really low power radiation, far less than for a medical type x-ray. At least, that's my completely unqualified opinion as someone with zero medical backround...


    Edit: funny, the sidebar ads are showing me ads for MRI machine repair. Good old Google adplacement technology at work there.

  14. #14
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    Even paper in a pocket will set it off. I travel a lot and have the routine down - nothing in pockets, no belt, hold very still when it scans (if you move it blurs and your get the pat down). That being said I have seen many people say they don't want to go through the machine and they get patted down and wanded instead.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by MendonCycleSmith View Post
    Yep, that was me, minus the penny. Now I'm going, WTF? What's going on with my leg? Bare skin and wool sock was all that was there....

    Makes me wonder if I should chat with my doctor biking pal, just what do these things see, you know??
    To avoid geek-speak - I'd have to know which type of scanner they used to make an attempt to guess at what it might have found. It may have been a software glitch, it may have been something else -
    I was gonna stop by and see you, but the Jehovas witnesses came by. When they left I started drinking. Voicemail from Paul

  16. #16
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    Having to endure body scans and pat downs sucks. Having your airplane blow up in the air sucks worse.
    Use it, use it, use it while you still have it.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gasp4Air View Post
    Having to endure body scans and pat downs sucks. Having your airplane blow up in the air sucks worse.
    Giving up your freedom sucks worse
    Your fear of looking stupid is holding you back.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymous View Post
    Giving up your freedom sucks worse
    I disagree. If there were a plane that required no searches and a plane that required searches, I'll take the plane with searches. I'm guessing you will not. And 999 times out of 1000, you'll be fine. I'm also guessing they'll have trouble finding pilots for the unsearched planes.

    I appreciate that some people really dislike the idea of being searched. Unfortunately, there's every reason to believe there would be planes blowing up midair were these searches not done. That's the f'd up world we live in.
    Use it, use it, use it while you still have it.

  19. #19
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    "Those Who Sacrifice Liberty For Security Deserve Niether", Ben Franklin
    Round and round we go

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymous View Post
    Giving up your freedom sucks worse
    You have the freedom to not fly.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by smilinsteve View Post
    You have the freedom to not fly.
    Yup, and now football games and what's next?
    Come on people, we're not cattle to be herded. Do you really think that time, money and energy couldn't be better spent to make us "safe"? We're being set up. How bout just letting, or better yet making, pilots carry guns or tasers? Banks have been succesfully keeping their money safe, why can't airliners do the same for it's pasengers? Do you really think the TSA gives a rats ass about you, or are they more concerned with keeping their jobs, expanding, gaining more power? Look at El Al's safety record and protocal, they're not f@uckin' around, why are we?
    Patrick Henry once said, "United We Stand Divided We Fall". It seems politicians/big money know this, but the people are forgeting. Welcome to Wall st. government.
    Last edited by theMeat; 09-19-2011 at 11:38 AM.
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  22. #22
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    Get ready"the-one1", random TSA check points WILL be set up. It's already in the works. Mark my words
    Last edited by theMeat; 09-19-2011 at 11:08 AM.
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  23. #23
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    I hate flying. I really really hate flying. Not because of crashing or other disasters like that. Its because of the security. You'll never know if they will haul you away "just because" and then deny you've ever existed. I know it sounds like a plot to a movie, but that's why I don't like to fly.
    So with that said, I agree that if you want to fly, you'll have to submit to their scans/groping/security checks.
    This is not about Freedom. As already mentioned, you do have the freedom NOT to fly. Now if they were doing those checks every time you got out of your house, that's when you complain about freedom.

    <------- Not a terrorist

  24. #24
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    This thread reminds me of a scene from This Is Spinal Tap....the scene with the cucumber...........

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by theMeat View Post
    Banks have been succesfully keeping their money safe, why can't airliners do the same for it's pasengers?
    No they don't. They are robbed with surprising regularity. Money is defrauded from them daily. I am not talking about the rogue trader at UBS. I am talking about ATM skimming, washed checks, counterfeit money, and nearly countless other types of fraud. My job is to teach incoming bankers all the ways to spot these frauds. Have you been into a bank with bandit barriers (bullet resistant windows) or the magnetically sealed double doors? They exist as a deterrent. The banks that have opted not to use these technologies are robbed at over 10 times the rate of a bank with the tech.

    The difference between a bank and an airline is their products. Money is easily replaced by insurance. Is your or your loved one's life? So, how far do you have to go to stop a repeat of 9/11?
    Apathy will get you exactly what you deserve

  26. #26
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    I see your point "bankerboy" as well you should see some of mine.
    Round and round we go

  27. #27
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    "If someone has explosive implants how are these scans going to help at all." That's what I was thinking while going through one for the first time in Boston. I don't mind the security but it isn't going to stop someone who is determined and smart.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by smilinsteve View Post
    From TSA FAQ's:

    Q. Is imaging technology safe?
    A. Advanced imaging technology is safe and meets national health and safety standards. Backscatter technology was evaluated by the Food and Drug Administrationís (FDA) Center for Devices and Radiological Health (CDRH), the National Institute for Standards and Technology (NIST), and the Johns Hopkins University Applied Physics Laboratory (APL). For comparison, a single scan using backscatter technology produces exposure equivalent to two minutes of flying on an airplane, and the energy projected by millimeter wave technology is thousands of times less than a cell phone transmission.

    TSA: Frequently Asked Questions
    Yeah, because the TSA would never lie about this stuff would they? And none of their agents would ever steal stuff from your luggage, nor accept bribes to get stuff on planes that shouldn't be there...

    I've had TSA agents lie to my face about the types of machinery they're using (I'll go through the millimeter wave machines, but not the backscatter X-Ray). So, yeah, not believing what the TSA posts on its Web site.

    If the backscatter X-ray were going to be used for medical purposes, it would have required much more extensive testing by the FDA. Funny how when the governments wants to use it to invade people's privacy, it sails right through the certification process.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by the-one1 View Post
    I hate flying. I really really hate flying. Not because of crashing or other disasters like that. Its because of the security. You'll never know if they will haul you away "just because" and then deny you've ever existed. I know it sounds like a plot to a movie, but that's why I don't like to fly.
    So with that said, I agree that if you want to fly, you'll have to submit to their scans/groping/security checks.
    This is not about Freedom. As already mentioned, you do have the freedom NOT to fly. Now if they were doing those checks every time you got out of your house, that's when you complain about freedom.

    <------- Not a terrorist
    You realize that the whole point of these machines and invasive searches is to see just how much the American people will put up with, don't you? Once we accept this, then they'll give police the right to randomly stop and search people's cars, because you might be carrying a car bomb. Oh yeah, we have the freedom not to drive, right? Then they'll decide they have the right to search anybody, anytime.

    These machines have nothing to do with security - the TSA misses 80 percent of the test explosives passed through checkpoints. Probably because they're too busy testing my 7-year-old for residue, patting down 3-year-old girls and freaking out over old people's artificial hips.

    When they really start caring about security, most people will never even notice, because they'll be looking for behavior, not stuff. These scanning machines have nothing to do with security.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by MendonCycleSmith View Post
    Yep, that was me, minus the penny. Now I'm going, WTF? What's going on with my leg? Bare skin and wool sock was all that was there....

    Makes me wonder if I should chat with my doctor biking pal, just what do these things see, you know??
    Maybe you were unknowingly abducted by aliens and that's where the implanted the transmitter.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymous View Post
    Giving up your freedom sucks worse

    You choose to fly, don't want the search, drive, take a bus or train, see there is your freedom, it hasn't been taken from you. Has the government banned all forms of travel except flying?
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    OK, I don't normally jump in on the social/govt/etc. topics, but I have to throw my 2c in.

    The TSA is not about keeping us safe. It's about seeing how much we're willing to surrender to a government agency. They want to make us FEEL safe, and they say that to do that, this is the list of rights we're going to have to allow them to violate. Most sheep say "OK, as long as my plane doesn't blow up..." and they have their answer.

    Will people finally draw the line when someone smuggles some explosives onto a plane in their colon and we all have to drop drawers for a gloved hand before we can board?

    TwoTone, are those like "separate but equal" transportation options?

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by eric1115 View Post
    The TSA is not about keeping us safe. It's about seeing how much we're willing to surrender to a government agency. They want to make us FEEL safe, and they say that to do that, this is the list of rights we're going to have to allow them to violate. Most sheep say "OK, as long as my plane doesn't blow up..." and they have their answer.
    I make you a deal. You don't call me a "sheep" and I won't call you a cranky paranoid wacko. OK?

    The TSA measures are not going to stop everything. They are invasive, imperfect, and not welcomed by anyone. But I believe they do make it harder for terrorists to do their evil. If you want to worry about whose out to get you - deprive you of your life and liberty - worry about the sick bastards who want to die and take you with them.
    Use it, use it, use it while you still have it.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigTex91 View Post
    You realize that the whole point of these machines and invasive searches is to see just how much the American people will put up with, don't you? Once we accept this, then they'll give police the right to randomly stop and search people's cars, because you might be carrying a car bomb. Oh yeah, we have the freedom not to drive, right? Then they'll decide they have the right to search anybody, anytime.
    Dude, time to take off the tin foil hat and go outside.


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    I take it that the consensus here is that the TSA sucks donkey balls. A determined suicidal maniac can and will get pass the super duper start of the art machines. Anyone watch Dark Knight? Remember the inmate with the time bomb in his abdomen? Since these machines can't see inside you, that's where they'll hide the stuff. Easy as pie.

    Oh, and I'm not for the whole search thing either. I think that it violates certain expectations of privacy and rights and that we should stop it before it gets carried away. I also know that since I don't fly, I don't have to deal with these invasive searches.

  36. #36
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    This is old but kinda funny TSA Misses Man's Loaded Handgun (VIDEO) | Mother Jones

    Even with all the sophisticated tech we have we could learn a lot from Israeli airport security which is considered the best airport security in the world and they don't even have body scanners.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by eric1115 View Post
    OK, I don't normally jump in on the social/govt/etc. topics, but I have to throw my 2c in.

    The TSA is not about keeping us safe. It's about seeing how much we're willing to surrender to a government agency. They want to make us FEEL safe, and they say that to do that, this is the list of rights we're going to have to allow them to violate. Most sheep say "OK, as long as my plane doesn't blow up..." and they have their answer.

    Will people finally draw the line when someone smuggles some explosives onto a plane in their colon and we all have to drop drawers for a gloved hand before we can board?

    TwoTone, are those like "separate but equal" transportation options?
    Please quote the line in the constitution about flying. Too many confuse rights. Boarding a plane with a search isn't one, so it was never taken away.

    Now you want to talk about a constitutional right then lets talk about why I'm not allowed to carry a weapon if I so chose
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  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    You choose to fly, don't want the search, drive, take a bus or train, see there is your freedom, it hasn't been taken from you. Has the government banned all forms of travel except flying?
    Indeed, but then why should flying be singled out? The 7/7 bombings in London 2005 and the Madrid train bombings in 2004 show that no form of public transport is entirely safe.
    When the machines are installed in every train station and bus stop you'll still be free to drive, cycle or walk. So what's the problem?

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Delirious View Post
    This is old but kinda funny TSA Misses Man's Loaded Handgun (VIDEO) | Mother Jones

    Even with all the sophisticated tech we have we could learn a lot from Israeli airport security which is considered the best airport security in the world and they don't even have body scanners.
    They also have a very aware public, not Americans so it wont work. Look lets be realistic with ourselves. American are pretyy much mind my own business kind of people. Until we start seeing car bombs all the time, the average American will remain oblivious.

    I flew to Canada for a wedding late September 2001, yes weeks after 9/11. So announcements going off about not leaving luggage etc going off every 5 minutes, huge lines.

    So as I'm moving up the line, I see a suitcase just sitting there. Look around, people moving past as the line moves up, so I go tell someone from the airlines about it. He calls out and the person comes from way up front and *****es at him because it's heavy and she doesn't want to carry it in line.

    I don't know whats worse, that at least 100 people walked pasted it or the airline personnel giving it back no questions asked.

    So, I'll take the TSA over expecting my fellow Americans to have the slightest clue.

    A radio hostess was made fun of on the radio by her co-host shortly after 9/11, because she wanted to call on a bag left on the sidewalk in front of a building , no one around it.

    The difference is in Israel, the people are very aware, they have to be.

    FYI I travel a lot for work and don't mind it all. Like another poster said above, given the choice to fly on a plane no checks vs. one with the checks, I'll take the checks everytime.
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  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by -Todd- View Post
    I was amazed that the airport security didn't beep on my Ti plate or 8 SS screws...

    Should I be worried?

    I've always found that security at McCarran is very, very tight.
    My "custom Ti hardware" rarely sets off detectors... But when it does I show them my medical implant card and all is well!

    I have Ti in my face, hand, knee and ankle...
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    Great things are done when men and mountains meet. This is not done by jostling in the street .

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    Airport security was a private function before 9-11. GW Bush made it a government function. So for those of you thinking it is not about security, but a plot to take away freedom, was it a private industry plot to take away your freedom before 9-11?


    If you owned an airplane, would you take steps to protect it? Before the government was fighting terrorism, Airlines were protecting their investments and keeping their insurance rates down.

    And as far as freedom goes, if planes and trains blow up very often, the opportunity to fly or take a train will go down, and the price will go up. Wouldn't that be a bigger cramp on your freedom than going through a scanner?

  42. #42
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    Can't speak for everyone Steve, but I for 1 do not believe we shouldn't have security. I think we should have better security and I'd be willing to pay for it. There's no easy answer or fix to such a complex problem, but scanners, especially the ones we use, and the TSA isn't the answer and certainly not were I'd like my tax $ to go into.
    Security is not something I know alot about but have read that a few countries have done extensive research, and regardless of cost, the best way available to us right now to check for "stuff", including peoples behavior is with dogs. I'v had some dogs that absolutely have been a better judge of a strangers aura than I. Have men with guns and dogs sniff you up if that's what's best. Instead of letting some company profit from outdated, unreliable, possibly hazardous scanners. Or build up another government agency that only wants to feed itself to get bigger for it's own security, in the name of ours.
    As far as stopping the motivation for another 9/11, that's even more complicated. But leading by example, with friendship, and mutual respect might be a good place to start. instead of with trying to change there government to our benifit by intimidation, coups, and wars. How would you feel if an army came to where you lived and started calling the shots and killing your people, even if your county or people clearly had issues, but if that's all you know ? Sure, someone like Bin Laden, if you even believe he's responsable, should have been killed secret ops style within days. The fact that we have spent trillions of dollars and many of our own peoples lives is enough motivation to get a shitload more people, who hate us for whatever reason you wanna believe, to do it again. I think we should stay home, in this country, take care of our own, stop messing with other countries beliefs and government, and punish swiftly and harshly anyone who messes with us. Look at Japan. They learned pretty quick.
    Round and round we go

  43. #43
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    Huh, I am guessing that MCS didn't quite intend his question to turn into this series of rants. Wondering how long this thread stays of the recycle bin... good one, guys. We already have Nazis mentioned in the thread. Can we talk about guns now?

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    What I find remarkable is that so many of you actually believe that all of this TSA theatre actually makes any difference.

    It is theatre designed to give you the illusion that you are being kept safe. It appears to be working.

    The thing that astounded me, and left me quite sad, was a few months ago in Phoenix, Arizona. I was there for a few days for work and was on their light rail system. I could not believe my eyes when I saw TSA people on a train platform searching people looking to get on a commuter train.

    Very sad what you people have allowed to happen to yourselves.

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by theMeat View Post
    How bout just letting, or better yet making, pilots carry guns or tasers?
    "if i let go of this button, the bomb strapped to my vest is going to explode"

    what pilot is gonna shoot a terrorist who says that?

    Quote Originally Posted by theMeat View Post
    So why are they at football games? 16 million people a year go to football games, and who pays for that? Your tax dollars.
    i'm sure the NFL pays for any additional security....and the TSA has nothing to do with it. the league just wants their security to step it up, for whatever reason. if people have a problem with that, they can let capitalism take effect....and stop going to games until security is reduced. or do freedom and capitalism not go hand in hand? should the government step in and force the NFL to stop groping people who enter the arena even if it means diminished safety for everyone in the arena? what would the repercussion be if something happened then?

    I think we should stay home, in this country, take care of our own, stop messing with other countries beliefs and government, and punish swiftly and harshly anyone who messes with us. Look at Japan. They learned pretty quick.
    you give japan as an example of a positive result.....
    except we still have 40,000 troops there from a war that ended 60 years ago. not exactly staying home in this country.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    Please quote the line in the constitution about flying. Too many confuse rights. Boarding a plane with a search isn't one, so it was never taken away.

    Now you want to talk about a constitutional right then lets talk about why I'm not allowed to carry a weapon if I so chose
    There's nothing in the Constitution about the internet, cell phones, repeating arms, or video recording either... there seems to be some pretty solid case law supporting the idea that our rights are not determined by the technology available at the time that the framers wrote the Constitution.

    When they start searching before you can board a train or bus, will you still be OK with that? You can still drive after all. How about random check points on the highway? You can still walk, just like the founders did. Or ride a horse.

    I would love for you to be permitted to carry on a plane. I have long said that planes would be much safer from a 9/11 type action if CCW permit holders were encouraged to carry when they fly. I'd trade all the TSA theater for 15 armed citizens on every plane, every time.

    We really ought to do what the Israelis do. Search for dangerous people, not dangerous objects. A stout ballpoint pen (or countless other A-OK objects) is more dangerous than many of the items on the "prohibited" list IF the person holding it is determined to do harm with it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eric1115 View Post
    I would love for you to be permitted to carry on a plane. I have long said that planes would be much safer from a 9/11 type action if CCW permit holders were encouraged to carry when they fly. I'd trade all the TSA theater for 15 armed citizens on every plane, every time.
    I'll bite. Let's put it this way: 200-300 people in a room crammed together like sardines in a tin. For anything from 2-12 hours. With access to alcohol.

    You seriously think this is a workable idea?

    Well, that's hard for me to believe, but I guess some people think fixies don't need brakes too...

  48. #48
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    What kind of freedom is that?

    Quote Originally Posted by smilinsteve View Post
    You have the freedom to not fly.

    It's like having the freedom to have a tooth pulled instead of getting a filling for a cavity. Because if you want to transport yourself over a lot of ground fast all you can do is fly over it on an airplane.

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by theMeat View Post
    Can't speak for everyone Steve, but I for 1 do not believe we shouldn't have security. I think we should have better security and I'd be willing to pay for it. There's no easy answer or fix to such a complex problem, but scanners, especially the ones we use, and the TSA isn't the answer and certainly not were I'd like my tax $ to go into.
    Security is not something I know alot about but have read that a few countries have done extensive research, and regardless of cost, the best way available to us right now to check for "stuff", including peoples behavior is with dogs. I'v had some dogs that absolutely have been a better judge of a strangers aura than I. Have men with guns and dogs sniff you up if that's what's best. Instead of letting some company profit from outdated, unreliable, possibly hazardous scanners. Or build up another government agency that only wants to feed itself to get bigger for it's own security, in the name of ours.
    As far as stopping the motivation for another 9/11, that's even more complicated. But leading by example, with friendship, and mutual respect might be a good place to start. instead of with trying to change there government to our benifit by intimidation, coups, and wars. How would you feel if an army came to where you lived and started calling the shots and killing your people, even if your county or people clearly had issues, but if that's all you know ? Sure, someone like Bin Laden, if you even believe he's responsable, should have been killed secret ops style within days. The fact that we have spent trillions of dollars and many of our own peoples lives is enough motivation to get a shitload more people, who hate us for whatever reason you wanna believe, to do it again. I think we should stay home, in this country, take care of our own, stop messing with other countries beliefs and government, and punish swiftly and harshly anyone who messes with us. Look at Japan. They learned pretty quick.
    Good answer.
    No one can argue against better security. These discussions too often turn in to people arguing the extremes whent he truth is in the middle. It's not correct to say that current security absolutely will keep us safe, and its also not correct to say it does nothing.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by eric1115 View Post
    I would love for you to be permitted to carry on a plane. I have long said that planes would be much safer from a 9/11 type action if CCW permit holders were encouraged to carry when they fly. I'd trade all the TSA theater for 15 armed citizens on every plane, every time.
    I'm glad you're not in charge of security! Terrorists want to die! Do you think they care if every Joe blow on the plane has a gun? Sure let everyone carry on whatever weapon they want, and we'll all be safe

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