Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 100 of 117
  1. #1
    All Lefty's, all the time Moderator
    Reputation: MendonCycleSmith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    15,382

    TSA Airport full body scan question....

    So I flew out to Vegas last week, and upon entering the airport, went through the whole body scan booth thing.

    Ended up having to sit and wait for several minutes while others went on by me after their scans. Got kinda freaky, even though I had nothing to hide when I realized there I was, on the screen, with a big red square on a portion of my body.

    So the guy who was administering the Freedom Pat-down finally comes over to me and says there's something on my scan, and they need to feel me up. I'm wearing bike socks,and shorts, and it's on my ankle/shin area. He looks and realizes how silly this all is, but does his job anyway. Have to give him credit, he was very polite, respectful and apologetic based on the circumstances.

    He finds nothing, and sends me on my way.

    So my question is, how are these things looking for whatever they are? Anyone know? Is it density differences, metal, what? I have no metal anywhere, not that leg, or elsewhere. Not even and old break in a bone without pins or screws. All I can think of is many pedal whacks to my shins over the years have lead to a density change from all the bruises. Otherwise, I'm flummoxed.
    This is a Pugs not some carbon wannabee pretzel wagon!!

    - FrostyStruthers



    www.mendoncyclesmith.com

  2. #2
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    4,820
    I think he was jealous of your manly biking legs. He probably just wanted to feel them up and compare them to his.

    In all seriousness, I think you'd have a easier time trying to understand Einstein's Theory of Relativity in mathematical form than to understand the TSA screening process.

  3. #3
    Five is right out
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    3,174
    Well, at least you were not wearing a kilt.

    No idea how these things work, but if they did pick up on differences in minor variatoins bone density, then wouldn't anyone who has ever broken or fractured a bone set off a flag?

    Actually, I just did a light little background reading. The full body scanners don't seem to look under the skin, only under clothing. They use reflected radio waves, or reflected x-rays, rather than radiation that goes through the body. So these things can't pick up bone density changes or anything hidden inside a body.

    So it's probably just the machine screwing up while still serving its main purpose as a prop in security theatre.

  4. #4
    Workin for the weekend!
    Reputation: -Todd-'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    1,304
    I was amazed that the airport security didn't beep on my Ti plate or 8 SS screws...

    Should I be worried?

    I've always found that security at McCarran is very, very tight.

  5. #5
    since 4/10/2009
    Reputation: Harold's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    20,779
    Last time I flew about a year ago, those full body scanners were only just starting to be installed. I did not go through them. Nor would I go through them now.

    Considering the radiation exposure you get just from flying, and considering that radiation exposure is cumulative across a lifetime, I'd really rather avoid extra radiation exposure when I can. Considering that I've had cancer once already and that many of my checkups involved various medical imaging (not all of which involved radiation exposure, thankfully), I'd rather do what I can to avoid as much extra exposure as possible.

    That link about the kilt-wearing fellas getting the pat downs was hilarious. I own (and wear) a couple of kilts and I had not thought about how to deal with airport security if I chose to wear one.

  6. #6
    mtbr member
    Reputation: theMeat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    4,450
    With radiation. Don't get me started on the TSAs illegally, unconstitutional groping of children, elderly, your wife, your mother, your children and of coarse yourself. Or how much they spend on those scanners that'r outdated, dangerous, and un effective. Or how many gropers they hire have criminal records. Like NFL?, Well get ready to be groped again. That's right. The T in TSA stands for tranportation. So why are they at football games? 16 million people a year go to football games, and who pays for that? Your tax dollars. What's next, baseball, shopping malls, H.S. proms? Even police or FBI agents aren't allowed to search without probable cause, but the TSA does it all day long. That's right your guilty until proven innocent. Not even Russia or hitler's Germany did these things. Just sayin' Our freedoms are being stripped from us in the name of "safety". It's really a joke. We're more likely to die from a lightning strike or a bee sting than from terrorism, look it up, so why aren't the TSA agents running around holding tall metal rods and bug spray to keep us safe? The TSA should be dismantled, it's founder has said this also, but they will just grow, and take away more of our "freedoms" unless we, as a people, demand otherwise, so I have little hope.

    rant over.
    Last edited by theMeat; 09-19-2011 at 07:40 AM.
    Round and round we go

  7. #7
    Five is right out
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    3,174
    Make sure to do a writeup for MTBR if you ever wear a kilt through a body search

    I'd missed the bit in the OP about Vegas. I flew from there years ago before the full body scans. I'd just picked up a new full face helmet in Utah and carried it on as hand luggage. The TSA woman was completely mystified as to what it was and couldn't seem to understand why anyone would need something like that for a bicycle.

    @Todd. If you look up how metal detectors work, you will see that there is a degree of 'tunability' for different types of metal. Maybe Ti medical parts are common enough (and rare enough in dangerous items) that the TSA had a rare attack of common sense and decided to tune out Ti.

  8. #8
    All Lefty's, all the time Moderator
    Reputation: MendonCycleSmith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    15,382
    Sweet, hit a hot button issue

    That kilt link is a good one, thanks Womble!

    I've flown a few times this year, and always just went through the metal detector. However, being that I flew in 9/11, and there was a "valid terrorist threat" I guess they upped the ante.

    I flew out of Rochester NY that day, and all folks went through the zapper that I saw.

    Actually, McCarran security was light comparatively.

    No idea on what it saw, nothing but nasty, scarred, manly biker legs for them to play with....

    So this is a radiation based scan? Suckfull, I avoid that crap, even at the dentist. Too bad they force us to do this now.
    This is a Pugs not some carbon wannabee pretzel wagon!!

    - FrostyStruthers



    www.mendoncyclesmith.com

  9. #9
    mtbr member
    Reputation: smilinsteve's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    8,613
    I recently went through one, and had a belt on with a plastic buckle (which I wear to airports on purpose so I don't have to take it off). In the scanner the guy told me I have to take it off anyway. So, I guess it's not metal that sets it off.
    But I had a penny in a cargo pocket I couldn't feel, but sure enough, I got the same big red square on that part of my leg in the image.

  10. #10
    All Lefty's, all the time Moderator
    Reputation: MendonCycleSmith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    15,382
    Quote Originally Posted by smilinsteve View Post
    I got the same big red square on that part of my leg in the image.
    Yep, that was me, minus the penny. Now I'm going, WTF? What's going on with my leg? Bare skin and wool sock was all that was there....

    Makes me wonder if I should chat with my doctor biking pal, just what do these things see, you know??
    This is a Pugs not some carbon wannabee pretzel wagon!!

    - FrostyStruthers



    www.mendoncyclesmith.com

  11. #11
    since 4/10/2009
    Reputation: Harold's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    20,779
    Quote Originally Posted by womble View Post
    Make sure to do a writeup for MTBR if you ever wear a kilt through a body search
    I might just do that. I'm headed to Costa Rica in the spring and might just wear my Sport Kilt hiking kilt (it's actually a good candidate for the plane - velcro attachment, elastic waist, no metal bits, light and comfy) on the plane. At least I'll be leaving out of Houston - I've flown out of there a few times and the TSA agents have been pretty polite. I flew out of Dallas last year and there was a particularly surly TSA agent that really seemed to have it out for my wife.

    So this is a radiation based scan? Suckfull, I avoid that crap, even at the dentist. Too bad they force us to do this now.
    Yep...it's not quite as intense as an x-ray (I seem to recall hearing that the radiation output on those things was dialed back at some point early in their use), but it is a full body exposure whereas most x-rays cover pretty small areas.

  12. #12
    mtbr member
    Reputation: smilinsteve's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    8,613
    Quote Originally Posted by NateHawk View Post

    Yep...it's not quite as intense as an x-ray (I seem to recall hearing that the radiation output on those things was dialed back at some point early in their use), but it is a full body exposure whereas most x-rays cover pretty small areas.
    From TSA FAQ's:

    Q. Is imaging technology safe?
    A. Advanced imaging technology is safe and meets national health and safety standards. Backscatter technology was evaluated by the Food and Drug Administrationís (FDA) Center for Devices and Radiological Health (CDRH), the National Institute for Standards and Technology (NIST), and the Johns Hopkins University Applied Physics Laboratory (APL). For comparison, a single scan using backscatter technology produces exposure equivalent to two minutes of flying on an airplane, and the energy projected by millimeter wave technology is thousands of times less than a cell phone transmission.

    TSA: Frequently Asked Questions

  13. #13
    Five is right out
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    3,174
    Quote Originally Posted by MendonCycleSmith View Post
    So this is a radiation based scan? Suckfull, I avoid that crap, even at the dentist. Too bad they force us to do this now.
    According to Wikpedia and any other semi-informative site, there are two types of scanner. One uses low power x-ray and the other uses high frequency radio. So they are radiation based, but the same could be said of shining a flashlight at someone (in so far as there is light being radiated from the filament).

    If they're measuring backscatter/reflected radiation, it stands to reason that they would only need really low power radiation, far less than for a medical type x-ray. At least, that's my completely unqualified opinion as someone with zero medical backround...


    Edit: funny, the sidebar ads are showing me ads for MRI machine repair. Good old Google adplacement technology at work there.

  14. #14
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    140
    Even paper in a pocket will set it off. I travel a lot and have the routine down - nothing in pockets, no belt, hold very still when it scans (if you move it blurs and your get the pat down). That being said I have seen many people say they don't want to go through the machine and they get patted down and wanded instead.

  15. #15
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Posts
    816
    Quote Originally Posted by MendonCycleSmith View Post
    Yep, that was me, minus the penny. Now I'm going, WTF? What's going on with my leg? Bare skin and wool sock was all that was there....

    Makes me wonder if I should chat with my doctor biking pal, just what do these things see, you know??
    To avoid geek-speak - I'd have to know which type of scanner they used to make an attempt to guess at what it might have found. It may have been a software glitch, it may have been something else -
    I was gonna stop by and see you, but the Jehovas witnesses came by. When they left I started drinking. Voicemail from Paul

  16. #16
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Gasp4Air's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    3,015
    Having to endure body scans and pat downs sucks. Having your airplane blow up in the air sucks worse.
    Use it, use it, use it while you still have it.

  17. #17
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Anonymous's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    2,799
    Quote Originally Posted by Gasp4Air View Post
    Having to endure body scans and pat downs sucks. Having your airplane blow up in the air sucks worse.
    Giving up your freedom sucks worse
    Your fear of looking stupid is holding you back.

  18. #18
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Gasp4Air's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    3,015
    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymous View Post
    Giving up your freedom sucks worse
    I disagree. If there were a plane that required no searches and a plane that required searches, I'll take the plane with searches. I'm guessing you will not. And 999 times out of 1000, you'll be fine. I'm also guessing they'll have trouble finding pilots for the unsearched planes.

    I appreciate that some people really dislike the idea of being searched. Unfortunately, there's every reason to believe there would be planes blowing up midair were these searches not done. That's the f'd up world we live in.
    Use it, use it, use it while you still have it.

  19. #19
    mtbr member
    Reputation: theMeat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    4,450
    "Those Who Sacrifice Liberty For Security Deserve Niether", Ben Franklin
    Round and round we go

  20. #20
    mtbr member
    Reputation: smilinsteve's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    8,613
    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymous View Post
    Giving up your freedom sucks worse
    You have the freedom to not fly.

  21. #21
    mtbr member
    Reputation: theMeat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    4,450
    Quote Originally Posted by smilinsteve View Post
    You have the freedom to not fly.
    Yup, and now football games and what's next?
    Come on people, we're not cattle to be herded. Do you really think that time, money and energy couldn't be better spent to make us "safe"? We're being set up. How bout just letting, or better yet making, pilots carry guns or tasers? Banks have been succesfully keeping their money safe, why can't airliners do the same for it's pasengers? Do you really think the TSA gives a rats ass about you, or are they more concerned with keeping their jobs, expanding, gaining more power? Look at El Al's safety record and protocal, they're not f@uckin' around, why are we?
    Patrick Henry once said, "United We Stand Divided We Fall". It seems politicians/big money know this, but the people are forgeting. Welcome to Wall st. government.
    Last edited by theMeat; 09-19-2011 at 10:38 AM.
    Round and round we go

  22. #22
    mtbr member
    Reputation: theMeat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    4,450
    Get ready"the-one1", random TSA check points WILL be set up. It's already in the works. Mark my words
    Last edited by theMeat; 09-19-2011 at 10:08 AM.
    Round and round we go

  23. #23
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    4,820
    I hate flying. I really really hate flying. Not because of crashing or other disasters like that. Its because of the security. You'll never know if they will haul you away "just because" and then deny you've ever existed. I know it sounds like a plot to a movie, but that's why I don't like to fly.
    So with that said, I agree that if you want to fly, you'll have to submit to their scans/groping/security checks.
    This is not about Freedom. As already mentioned, you do have the freedom NOT to fly. Now if they were doing those checks every time you got out of your house, that's when you complain about freedom.

    <------- Not a terrorist

  24. #24
    Old Time 1310 DB4
    Reputation: FlatHatter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    31
    This thread reminds me of a scene from This Is Spinal Tap....the scene with the cucumber...........

  25. #25
    BM and PQ Trail Rep
    Reputation: bankerboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    1,634
    Quote Originally Posted by theMeat View Post
    Banks have been succesfully keeping their money safe, why can't airliners do the same for it's pasengers?
    No they don't. They are robbed with surprising regularity. Money is defrauded from them daily. I am not talking about the rogue trader at UBS. I am talking about ATM skimming, washed checks, counterfeit money, and nearly countless other types of fraud. My job is to teach incoming bankers all the ways to spot these frauds. Have you been into a bank with bandit barriers (bullet resistant windows) or the magnetically sealed double doors? They exist as a deterrent. The banks that have opted not to use these technologies are robbed at over 10 times the rate of a bank with the tech.

    The difference between a bank and an airline is their products. Money is easily replaced by insurance. Is your or your loved one's life? So, how far do you have to go to stop a repeat of 9/11?
    Apathy will get you exactly what you deserve

  26. #26
    mtbr member
    Reputation: theMeat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    4,450
    I see your point "bankerboy" as well you should see some of mine.
    Round and round we go

  27. #27
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Delirious's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    132
    "If someone has explosive implants how are these scans going to help at all." That's what I was thinking while going through one for the first time in Boston. I don't mind the security but it isn't going to stop someone who is determined and smart.

  28. #28
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    144
    Quote Originally Posted by smilinsteve View Post
    From TSA FAQ's:

    Q. Is imaging technology safe?
    A. Advanced imaging technology is safe and meets national health and safety standards. Backscatter technology was evaluated by the Food and Drug Administrationís (FDA) Center for Devices and Radiological Health (CDRH), the National Institute for Standards and Technology (NIST), and the Johns Hopkins University Applied Physics Laboratory (APL). For comparison, a single scan using backscatter technology produces exposure equivalent to two minutes of flying on an airplane, and the energy projected by millimeter wave technology is thousands of times less than a cell phone transmission.

    TSA: Frequently Asked Questions
    Yeah, because the TSA would never lie about this stuff would they? And none of their agents would ever steal stuff from your luggage, nor accept bribes to get stuff on planes that shouldn't be there...

    I've had TSA agents lie to my face about the types of machinery they're using (I'll go through the millimeter wave machines, but not the backscatter X-Ray). So, yeah, not believing what the TSA posts on its Web site.

    If the backscatter X-ray were going to be used for medical purposes, it would have required much more extensive testing by the FDA. Funny how when the governments wants to use it to invade people's privacy, it sails right through the certification process.

  29. #29
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    144
    Quote Originally Posted by the-one1 View Post
    I hate flying. I really really hate flying. Not because of crashing or other disasters like that. Its because of the security. You'll never know if they will haul you away "just because" and then deny you've ever existed. I know it sounds like a plot to a movie, but that's why I don't like to fly.
    So with that said, I agree that if you want to fly, you'll have to submit to their scans/groping/security checks.
    This is not about Freedom. As already mentioned, you do have the freedom NOT to fly. Now if they were doing those checks every time you got out of your house, that's when you complain about freedom.

    <------- Not a terrorist
    You realize that the whole point of these machines and invasive searches is to see just how much the American people will put up with, don't you? Once we accept this, then they'll give police the right to randomly stop and search people's cars, because you might be carrying a car bomb. Oh yeah, we have the freedom not to drive, right? Then they'll decide they have the right to search anybody, anytime.

    These machines have nothing to do with security - the TSA misses 80 percent of the test explosives passed through checkpoints. Probably because they're too busy testing my 7-year-old for residue, patting down 3-year-old girls and freaking out over old people's artificial hips.

    When they really start caring about security, most people will never even notice, because they'll be looking for behavior, not stuff. These scanning machines have nothing to do with security.

  30. #30
    banned
    Reputation: marpilli's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    3,993
    Quote Originally Posted by MendonCycleSmith View Post
    Yep, that was me, minus the penny. Now I'm going, WTF? What's going on with my leg? Bare skin and wool sock was all that was there....

    Makes me wonder if I should chat with my doctor biking pal, just what do these things see, you know??
    Maybe you were unknowingly abducted by aliens and that's where the implanted the transmitter.

  31. #31
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    6,973
    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymous View Post
    Giving up your freedom sucks worse

    You choose to fly, don't want the search, drive, take a bus or train, see there is your freedom, it hasn't been taken from you. Has the government banned all forms of travel except flying?
    OG Ripley v2
    Carver 420 TI

  32. #32
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    446
    OK, I don't normally jump in on the social/govt/etc. topics, but I have to throw my 2c in.

    The TSA is not about keeping us safe. It's about seeing how much we're willing to surrender to a government agency. They want to make us FEEL safe, and they say that to do that, this is the list of rights we're going to have to allow them to violate. Most sheep say "OK, as long as my plane doesn't blow up..." and they have their answer.

    Will people finally draw the line when someone smuggles some explosives onto a plane in their colon and we all have to drop drawers for a gloved hand before we can board?

    TwoTone, are those like "separate but equal" transportation options?

  33. #33
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Gasp4Air's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    3,015
    Quote Originally Posted by eric1115 View Post
    The TSA is not about keeping us safe. It's about seeing how much we're willing to surrender to a government agency. They want to make us FEEL safe, and they say that to do that, this is the list of rights we're going to have to allow them to violate. Most sheep say "OK, as long as my plane doesn't blow up..." and they have their answer.
    I make you a deal. You don't call me a "sheep" and I won't call you a cranky paranoid wacko. OK?

    The TSA measures are not going to stop everything. They are invasive, imperfect, and not welcomed by anyone. But I believe they do make it harder for terrorists to do their evil. If you want to worry about whose out to get you - deprive you of your life and liberty - worry about the sick bastards who want to die and take you with them.
    Use it, use it, use it while you still have it.

  34. #34
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    3,148
    Quote Originally Posted by BigTex91 View Post
    You realize that the whole point of these machines and invasive searches is to see just how much the American people will put up with, don't you? Once we accept this, then they'll give police the right to randomly stop and search people's cars, because you might be carrying a car bomb. Oh yeah, we have the freedom not to drive, right? Then they'll decide they have the right to search anybody, anytime.
    Dude, time to take off the tin foil hat and go outside.


  35. #35
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    4,820
    I take it that the consensus here is that the TSA sucks donkey balls. A determined suicidal maniac can and will get pass the super duper start of the art machines. Anyone watch Dark Knight? Remember the inmate with the time bomb in his abdomen? Since these machines can't see inside you, that's where they'll hide the stuff. Easy as pie.

    Oh, and I'm not for the whole search thing either. I think that it violates certain expectations of privacy and rights and that we should stop it before it gets carried away. I also know that since I don't fly, I don't have to deal with these invasive searches.

  36. #36
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Delirious's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    132
    This is old but kinda funny TSA Misses Man's Loaded Handgun (VIDEO) | Mother Jones

    Even with all the sophisticated tech we have we could learn a lot from Israeli airport security which is considered the best airport security in the world and they don't even have body scanners.

  37. #37
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    6,973
    Quote Originally Posted by eric1115 View Post
    OK, I don't normally jump in on the social/govt/etc. topics, but I have to throw my 2c in.

    The TSA is not about keeping us safe. It's about seeing how much we're willing to surrender to a government agency. They want to make us FEEL safe, and they say that to do that, this is the list of rights we're going to have to allow them to violate. Most sheep say "OK, as long as my plane doesn't blow up..." and they have their answer.

    Will people finally draw the line when someone smuggles some explosives onto a plane in their colon and we all have to drop drawers for a gloved hand before we can board?

    TwoTone, are those like "separate but equal" transportation options?
    Please quote the line in the constitution about flying. Too many confuse rights. Boarding a plane with a search isn't one, so it was never taken away.

    Now you want to talk about a constitutional right then lets talk about why I'm not allowed to carry a weapon if I so chose
    OG Ripley v2
    Carver 420 TI

  38. #38
    mtbr member
    Reputation: nuffink's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    768
    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    You choose to fly, don't want the search, drive, take a bus or train, see there is your freedom, it hasn't been taken from you. Has the government banned all forms of travel except flying?
    Indeed, but then why should flying be singled out? The 7/7 bombings in London 2005 and the Madrid train bombings in 2004 show that no form of public transport is entirely safe.
    When the machines are installed in every train station and bus stop you'll still be free to drive, cycle or walk. So what's the problem?

  39. #39
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    6,973
    Quote Originally Posted by Delirious View Post
    This is old but kinda funny TSA Misses Man's Loaded Handgun (VIDEO) | Mother Jones

    Even with all the sophisticated tech we have we could learn a lot from Israeli airport security which is considered the best airport security in the world and they don't even have body scanners.
    They also have a very aware public, not Americans so it wont work. Look lets be realistic with ourselves. American are pretyy much mind my own business kind of people. Until we start seeing car bombs all the time, the average American will remain oblivious.

    I flew to Canada for a wedding late September 2001, yes weeks after 9/11. So announcements going off about not leaving luggage etc going off every 5 minutes, huge lines.

    So as I'm moving up the line, I see a suitcase just sitting there. Look around, people moving past as the line moves up, so I go tell someone from the airlines about it. He calls out and the person comes from way up front and *****es at him because it's heavy and she doesn't want to carry it in line.

    I don't know whats worse, that at least 100 people walked pasted it or the airline personnel giving it back no questions asked.

    So, I'll take the TSA over expecting my fellow Americans to have the slightest clue.

    A radio hostess was made fun of on the radio by her co-host shortly after 9/11, because she wanted to call on a bag left on the sidewalk in front of a building , no one around it.

    The difference is in Israel, the people are very aware, they have to be.

    FYI I travel a lot for work and don't mind it all. Like another poster said above, given the choice to fly on a plane no checks vs. one with the checks, I'll take the checks everytime.
    OG Ripley v2
    Carver 420 TI

  40. #40
    Nickel Havr
    Reputation: Eckstream1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    1,177
    Quote Originally Posted by -Todd- View Post
    I was amazed that the airport security didn't beep on my Ti plate or 8 SS screws...

    Should I be worried?

    I've always found that security at McCarran is very, very tight.
    My "custom Ti hardware" rarely sets off detectors... But when it does I show them my medical implant card and all is well!

    I have Ti in my face, hand, knee and ankle...
    Quote Originally Posted by William Blake
    Great things are done when men and mountains meet. This is not done by jostling in the street .

  41. #41
    mtbr member
    Reputation: smilinsteve's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    8,613
    Airport security was a private function before 9-11. GW Bush made it a government function. So for those of you thinking it is not about security, but a plot to take away freedom, was it a private industry plot to take away your freedom before 9-11?


    If you owned an airplane, would you take steps to protect it? Before the government was fighting terrorism, Airlines were protecting their investments and keeping their insurance rates down.

    And as far as freedom goes, if planes and trains blow up very often, the opportunity to fly or take a train will go down, and the price will go up. Wouldn't that be a bigger cramp on your freedom than going through a scanner?

  42. #42
    mtbr member
    Reputation: theMeat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    4,450
    Can't speak for everyone Steve, but I for 1 do not believe we shouldn't have security. I think we should have better security and I'd be willing to pay for it. There's no easy answer or fix to such a complex problem, but scanners, especially the ones we use, and the TSA isn't the answer and certainly not were I'd like my tax $ to go into.
    Security is not something I know alot about but have read that a few countries have done extensive research, and regardless of cost, the best way available to us right now to check for "stuff", including peoples behavior is with dogs. I'v had some dogs that absolutely have been a better judge of a strangers aura than I. Have men with guns and dogs sniff you up if that's what's best. Instead of letting some company profit from outdated, unreliable, possibly hazardous scanners. Or build up another government agency that only wants to feed itself to get bigger for it's own security, in the name of ours.
    As far as stopping the motivation for another 9/11, that's even more complicated. But leading by example, with friendship, and mutual respect might be a good place to start. instead of with trying to change there government to our benifit by intimidation, coups, and wars. How would you feel if an army came to where you lived and started calling the shots and killing your people, even if your county or people clearly had issues, but if that's all you know ? Sure, someone like Bin Laden, if you even believe he's responsable, should have been killed secret ops style within days. The fact that we have spent trillions of dollars and many of our own peoples lives is enough motivation to get a shitload more people, who hate us for whatever reason you wanna believe, to do it again. I think we should stay home, in this country, take care of our own, stop messing with other countries beliefs and government, and punish swiftly and harshly anyone who messes with us. Look at Japan. They learned pretty quick.
    Round and round we go

  43. #43
    Five is right out
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    3,174
    Huh, I am guessing that MCS didn't quite intend his question to turn into this series of rants. Wondering how long this thread stays of the recycle bin... good one, guys. We already have Nazis mentioned in the thread. Can we talk about guns now?

  44. #44
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    107
    What I find remarkable is that so many of you actually believe that all of this TSA theatre actually makes any difference.

    It is theatre designed to give you the illusion that you are being kept safe. It appears to be working.

    The thing that astounded me, and left me quite sad, was a few months ago in Phoenix, Arizona. I was there for a few days for work and was on their light rail system. I could not believe my eyes when I saw TSA people on a train platform searching people looking to get on a commuter train.

    Very sad what you people have allowed to happen to yourselves.

  45. #45
    .
    Reputation: Timon's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    1,484
    Quote Originally Posted by theMeat View Post
    How bout just letting, or better yet making, pilots carry guns or tasers?
    "if i let go of this button, the bomb strapped to my vest is going to explode"

    what pilot is gonna shoot a terrorist who says that?

    Quote Originally Posted by theMeat View Post
    So why are they at football games? 16 million people a year go to football games, and who pays for that? Your tax dollars.
    i'm sure the NFL pays for any additional security....and the TSA has nothing to do with it. the league just wants their security to step it up, for whatever reason. if people have a problem with that, they can let capitalism take effect....and stop going to games until security is reduced. or do freedom and capitalism not go hand in hand? should the government step in and force the NFL to stop groping people who enter the arena even if it means diminished safety for everyone in the arena? what would the repercussion be if something happened then?

    I think we should stay home, in this country, take care of our own, stop messing with other countries beliefs and government, and punish swiftly and harshly anyone who messes with us. Look at Japan. They learned pretty quick.
    you give japan as an example of a positive result.....
    except we still have 40,000 troops there from a war that ended 60 years ago. not exactly staying home in this country.

  46. #46
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    446
    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    Please quote the line in the constitution about flying. Too many confuse rights. Boarding a plane with a search isn't one, so it was never taken away.

    Now you want to talk about a constitutional right then lets talk about why I'm not allowed to carry a weapon if I so chose
    There's nothing in the Constitution about the internet, cell phones, repeating arms, or video recording either... there seems to be some pretty solid case law supporting the idea that our rights are not determined by the technology available at the time that the framers wrote the Constitution.

    When they start searching before you can board a train or bus, will you still be OK with that? You can still drive after all. How about random check points on the highway? You can still walk, just like the founders did. Or ride a horse.

    I would love for you to be permitted to carry on a plane. I have long said that planes would be much safer from a 9/11 type action if CCW permit holders were encouraged to carry when they fly. I'd trade all the TSA theater for 15 armed citizens on every plane, every time.

    We really ought to do what the Israelis do. Search for dangerous people, not dangerous objects. A stout ballpoint pen (or countless other A-OK objects) is more dangerous than many of the items on the "prohibited" list IF the person holding it is determined to do harm with it.

  47. #47
    Five is right out
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    3,174
    Quote Originally Posted by eric1115 View Post
    I would love for you to be permitted to carry on a plane. I have long said that planes would be much safer from a 9/11 type action if CCW permit holders were encouraged to carry when they fly. I'd trade all the TSA theater for 15 armed citizens on every plane, every time.
    I'll bite. Let's put it this way: 200-300 people in a room crammed together like sardines in a tin. For anything from 2-12 hours. With access to alcohol.

    You seriously think this is a workable idea?

    Well, that's hard for me to believe, but I guess some people think fixies don't need brakes too...

  48. #48
    tl1
    tl1 is offline
    Bicyclist
    Reputation: tl1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    2,851

    What kind of freedom is that?

    Quote Originally Posted by smilinsteve View Post
    You have the freedom to not fly.

    It's like having the freedom to have a tooth pulled instead of getting a filling for a cavity. Because if you want to transport yourself over a lot of ground fast all you can do is fly over it on an airplane.

  49. #49
    mtbr member
    Reputation: smilinsteve's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    8,613
    Quote Originally Posted by theMeat View Post
    Can't speak for everyone Steve, but I for 1 do not believe we shouldn't have security. I think we should have better security and I'd be willing to pay for it. There's no easy answer or fix to such a complex problem, but scanners, especially the ones we use, and the TSA isn't the answer and certainly not were I'd like my tax $ to go into.
    Security is not something I know alot about but have read that a few countries have done extensive research, and regardless of cost, the best way available to us right now to check for "stuff", including peoples behavior is with dogs. I'v had some dogs that absolutely have been a better judge of a strangers aura than I. Have men with guns and dogs sniff you up if that's what's best. Instead of letting some company profit from outdated, unreliable, possibly hazardous scanners. Or build up another government agency that only wants to feed itself to get bigger for it's own security, in the name of ours.
    As far as stopping the motivation for another 9/11, that's even more complicated. But leading by example, with friendship, and mutual respect might be a good place to start. instead of with trying to change there government to our benifit by intimidation, coups, and wars. How would you feel if an army came to where you lived and started calling the shots and killing your people, even if your county or people clearly had issues, but if that's all you know ? Sure, someone like Bin Laden, if you even believe he's responsable, should have been killed secret ops style within days. The fact that we have spent trillions of dollars and many of our own peoples lives is enough motivation to get a shitload more people, who hate us for whatever reason you wanna believe, to do it again. I think we should stay home, in this country, take care of our own, stop messing with other countries beliefs and government, and punish swiftly and harshly anyone who messes with us. Look at Japan. They learned pretty quick.
    Good answer.
    No one can argue against better security. These discussions too often turn in to people arguing the extremes whent he truth is in the middle. It's not correct to say that current security absolutely will keep us safe, and its also not correct to say it does nothing.

  50. #50
    mtbr member
    Reputation: smilinsteve's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    8,613
    Quote Originally Posted by eric1115 View Post
    I would love for you to be permitted to carry on a plane. I have long said that planes would be much safer from a 9/11 type action if CCW permit holders were encouraged to carry when they fly. I'd trade all the TSA theater for 15 armed citizens on every plane, every time.
    I'm glad you're not in charge of security! Terrorists want to die! Do you think they care if every Joe blow on the plane has a gun? Sure let everyone carry on whatever weapon they want, and we'll all be safe

  51. #51
    mtbr member
    Reputation: smilinsteve's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    8,613
    Quote Originally Posted by Toomanybikes View Post
    What I find remarkable is that so many of you actually believe that all of this TSA theatre actually makes any difference.

    It is theatre designed to give you the illusion that you are being kept safe. It appears to be working.
    There is no doubt that TSA security measures have thwarted attempted attacks on planes. Look at the 2006 Transatlantic airline plot:

    A plan 'to commit unimaginable mass murder' - Times Online

    Terrorists had been experimenting with peroxide based liquid explosives. It was their new mode of atttack. Not only was that plot foiled, but the whole methodology of bringing liquid explosives on planes was thwarted with the new liquids rule.

    How about shoe bombs. Someone tried it, now we take off our shoes.
    No more shoe bomb plots since then.

    Would you still prefer the "freedom" to bring big bottles of liquids through security, and leave your shoes on? What if the 2006 plot succeeded in blowing up 10 planes in the sky on the same day? Would that be enough to make you accept some new rules?

    I am very aware of the problems of fear mongering and abuse of government power. There is a lot of fear mongering using the terrorist card, but there also is a real threat. You have to find a balance and I don't think the TSA is out of line at all, not that they couldn't improve.

  52. #52
    Workin for the weekend!
    Reputation: -Todd-'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    1,304
    Quote Originally Posted by Eckstream1 View Post
    My "custom Ti hardware" rarely sets off detectors... But when it does I show them my medical implant card and all is well!

    I have Ti in my face, hand, knee and ankle...
    I don't carry a card, just a scar...

  53. #53
    mtbr member
    Reputation: theMeat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    4,450
    Quote Originally Posted by nomit View Post
    "if i let go of this button, the bomb strapped to my vest is going to explode"
    what pilot is gonna shoot a terrorist who says that?

    Well, what if that guy has a heart attack while holding that button? What if the bomb is in his luggage? What if it's in his @ss or stomach? Want your @sshole checked to bored a plane? What if that guy is on a smaller plane which has no "security". It's pure speculation what if BS.

    i'm sure the NFL pays for any additional security....

    Actually it's a partnership with Homeland security and you think the NFL is gonna pay, hahah. Just like they pay for their own stadium right. Do ya think the players aren't going to just walk right throu that "security" without laughing at the charade the fans must endore? I'm sure all this security makes some difference but not enough and at what cost?, and I'm not talkin' just $. Where will we be in 20 years if this is the route we take?

    you give japan as an example of a positive result.....
    except we still have 40,000 troops there from a war that ended 60 years ago. not exactly staying home in this country.

    That's right, they haven't f@ucked with us since then. I'd say they learned a lesson. The fact that we are building and maintaining troops and massive UN facilities all around the world while our homeland falls apart is another issue that should be fixed.
    If you'd like to live a fantasy and give up your freedoms that's cool. Your choice.
    Round and round we go

  54. #54
    mtbr member
    Reputation: theMeat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    4,450
    Oh man Steve. Using your logic i fear the day of the @sshole bomber, LOL
    Round and round we go

  55. #55
    .
    Reputation: Timon's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    1,484
    I would love for you to be permitted to carry on a plane. I have long said that planes would be much safer from a 9/11 type action if CCW permit holders were encouraged to carry when they fly. I'd trade all the TSA theater for 15 armed citizens on every plane, every time.
    like i said, what happens when a suicide bomber stands up and says "if i let go of this button, we all die" ....all those CCW guys are gonna piss their pants and the guns become worthless. nevermind the problems associated with accidental discharge and rapid cabin decompression at 40,000 feet.

    If you'd like to live a fantasy and give up your freedoms that's cool. Your choice.
    not really. it's everyone's choice. if we all were so concerned about the government taking our freedoms, we'd elect ron paul. but he comes in DFL every year. so obviously this democracy has greater concerns.

    if people don't want a portion of their tax dollars to pay for an NFL stadium, they shouldn't elect a politician who's willing to foot the bill.

    I'm sure all this security makes some difference but not enough and at what cost?, and I'm not talkin' just $. Where will we be in 20 years if this is the route we take?
    i don't know. there's no doubt its a hard question. where would we be without security if something did happen?

    i don't love getting padded down or xrayed when i walk into an nba game with 30,000 people. but if we want to be safe and feel safe, then we have to give up a couple of our privileges along the way somewhere. nuking all of afghanistan and then hanging out for the next century isn't really an option after an extremist group does something terrible. other countries aren't gonna be cool with that. so the only way to maintain a level of safety is to use TSA like things. if you want the privilege of hopping on a jet and flying from LA to New York in 4 hours....is taking your shoes off and having some poor schmuck run his hands down your shin really that bad?

    we are so spoiled.

  56. #56
    Plays with tools
    Reputation: customfab's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    4,512
    Did you ask for a reach around during your pat down?

  57. #57
    mtbr member
    Reputation: nuffink's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    768
    Quote Originally Posted by eric1115 View Post
    I would love for you to be permitted to carry on a plane. I have long said that planes would be much safer from a 9/11 type action if CCW permit holders were encouraged to carry when they fly. I'd trade all the TSA theater for 15 armed citizens on every plane, every time.
    Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to Cracker Airlines flight 101 from Arizona. Could we have your attention for a short safety announcement.
    In the unlikely event of a vigilante situation arising the fuel tanks are here, here and here. Please try to avoid firing in their general direction. Should one of the windows be blown out, leading to explosive decompression, Bibles will automatically drop from the compartments above your head. As always, kevlar vests are provided under each seat. Wrap the chords behind your back and tie securely in a bow at the front. There is a whistle provided to call the attendant's attention to gunshot trauma once the fire fight is over. A carefully selected range of high quality fire arms and ammunition is available from the trolley, stewardesses will be happy to take your order. Cash and all major credit cards are accepted.
    On behalf on Captain Cleetus Hick and his crew, may I wish you a safe and comfortable journey.

  58. #58
    since 4/10/2009
    Reputation: Harold's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    20,779
    ID checks make sense. Shady documents are a red flag that someone is up to something. The whole bag check/scanner line system sucks because there's always someone not familiar with the procedure who holds up the process because they wore complicated shoes or forgot some random metal item in their pocket or takes too long to collect their belongings at the end of the line. I think the process could be streamlined, but that would probably require designing the process into the building. The way it's just crammed into available space at most airports (making everything look like a temporary installation) makes it hard.

    It bothers me that the radiation-emitting scanners are now prevalent and the TSA would really prefer you to go through them. The fact that the only alternative is a rather invasive pat-down is bothersome. But, I'd rather go through the pat-down and make the TSA agent uncomfortable (and get a little comedic value from the situation) because I chose to wear a kilt than to add to my radiation exposure for the trip.

    That said, I do think that the whole process probably adds more to the "feeling" of security than to actual security. There are plenty of high value targets that don't get such rigorous protection.

  59. #59
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    446
    Quote Originally Posted by womble View Post
    I'll bite. Let's put it this way: 200-300 people in a room crammed together like sardines in a tin. For anything from 2-12 hours. With access to alcohol.

    You seriously think this is a workable idea?

    Well, that's hard for me to believe, but I guess some people think fixies don't need brakes too...
    Happens all the time, man. 40 (or maybe 41 states now) are "shall issue" meaning that all it takes is not having a criminal record, and in many states after passing a competency test, in order to be issued a concealed carry permit. In every state, when this legislation was being considered, people predicted a blood bath in the streets, OK Corral shootouts, etc. It never materialized. In many (but not all) states, it's legal to carry in places that serve alcohol (but not legal to become impaired while carrying). Permit holders are statistically less likely to be convicted of any crime than any other category of folks you can think of, including law enforcement officers.

    Do fistfights routinely break out on planes? Do people stab each other with pens? Do they pour hot coffee on one another? What makes you think that they'll suddenly turn violent if they're legally carrying a firearm they responsibly carry everywhere else?

    -Eric

  60. #60
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    144
    Quote Originally Posted by smilinsteve View Post
    Good answer.
    No one can argue against better security. These discussions too often turn in to people arguing the extremes whent he truth is in the middle. It's not correct to say that current security absolutely will keep us safe, and its also not correct to say it does nothing.
    Right, no one can argue against better security. That's exactly the point. All these measures are NOT better security! Especially when implemented by people who would be struggling to get your order correct at McDonald's if the government weren't hiring.

    Not saying they do nothing, but that doesn't mean they're worth the cost, invasion of privacy and exposure to potentially harmful radiation, either.

    The fact remains that the TSA has not foiled a single terrorist plot. Every one that has been stopped has been by the FBI, CIA, foreign intelligence agencies or some combination thereof, or it comes down to the passengers on a plane stopping the attack. And the TSA still manages to let loaded guns and dangerous weapons on board planes.

  61. #61
    Old Time 1310 DB4
    Reputation: FlatHatter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    31
    Quote Originally Posted by eric1115 View Post
    Happens all the time, man. 40 (or maybe 41 states now) are "shall issue" meaning that all it takes is not having a criminal record, and in many states after passing a competency test, in order to be issued a concealed carry permit. In every state, when this legislation was being considered, people predicted a blood bath in the streets, OK Corral shootouts, etc. It never materialized. In many (but not all) states, it's legal to carry in places that serve alcohol (but not legal to become impaired while carrying). Permit holders are statistically less likely to be convicted of any crime than any other category of folks you can think of, including law enforcement officers.

    Do fistfights routinely break out on planes? Do people stab each other with pens? Do they pour hot coffee on one another? What makes you think that they'll suddenly turn violent if they're legally carrying a firearm they responsibly carry everywhere else?

    -Eric
    I presume you like the fact that 40 or 41 states are shall issue----as do I. I'm also happy with the recent SCOTUS decisions in District of Columbia v. Heller and McDonald v. City of Chicago.

    BUT, fist fights, pens and coffee won't breach the pressurized compartment of an airliner, so I really would rather not see the average joe carry while in flight.

  62. #62
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    446
    Quote Originally Posted by FlatHatter View Post
    I presume you like the fact that 40 or 41 states are shall issue----as do I. I'm also happy with the recent SCOTUS decisions in District of Columbia v. Heller and McDonald v. City of Chicago.

    BUT, fist fights, pens and coffee won't breach the pressurized compartment of an airliner, so I really would rather not see the average joe carry while in flight.
    My point with the fist, pens, and coffee is that I don't see CCW holders bringing force to bear unless absolutely necessary. They don't do it in regular day-to-day activity, and there's no reason to believe that somehow being in a plane would cause them to suddenly change that.

    If it DOES become necessary, then loss of cabin pressure is the last thing we need to worry about. It's a much smaller issue than most people think it is. Planes don't explode, people don't get sucked out. If a round goes through the skin, cabin pressure won't likely drop... the pressurization system can probably keep up. If it goes through a window, the masks will drop and it'll get windy in there.

  63. #63
    Nickel Havr
    Reputation: Eckstream1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    1,177
    Quote Originally Posted by FlatHatter View Post
    I presume you like the fact that 40 or 41 states are shall issue----as do I. I'm also happy with the recent SCOTUS decisions in District of Columbia v. Heller and McDonald v. City of Chicago.

    BUT, fist fights, pens and coffee won't breach the pressurized compartment of an airliner, so I really would rather not see the average joe carry while in flight.
    Just watch the episode of Mythbusters... They done busted the theory of "explosive decompression"...
    Quote Originally Posted by William Blake
    Great things are done when men and mountains meet. This is not done by jostling in the street .

  64. #64
    mtbr member
    Reputation: pleepleus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    389
    I choose not to fly because I can't take my knife or gun with me. Hell they don't even let you have a reel bottle of shampoo. My sister in law took a plane ride a while back with her infant and they took her formula away because the bottle was too big. Poor baby went like 12 hours with out any thing to eat.

  65. #65
    mtbr member
    Reputation: theMeat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    4,450
    Yea, pleeplues, but at least they were all safe, lol. I know some people that work doing various stuff at the airports, and trust me, it's a joke, and oh, keep your valuables in your carry on.
    Round and round we go

  66. #66
    Old Time 1310 DB4
    Reputation: FlatHatter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    31
    Quote Originally Posted by Eckstream1 View Post
    Just watch the episode of Mythbusters... They done busted the theory of "explosive decompression"...
    LOL Who said anything about that?

    I'd be more concerned with Hypoxia or Barotrauma.

    TUC at flight level 350 is 30-60 seconds.


    ETA: Also, it likely won't be one stray round penetrating the skin. Unless the shooter has been trained, it's more likely going to be at least one fully-dumped magazine or anywhere from 7 to 19 rounds depending on the platform. The competency course required by some states for CCW isn't the same as training in a shoot house such as a Thunder Ranch or Gunsite course.

    Anyway, hypoxia brought on by an undetectable leak in a pressurized cabin has brought down a/c before due to the crew losing useful consciousness (Helios Airways Flight 522 is an example) and I'd rather that the bubbas keep their pistolas in their checked bags, but that's just me........
    Last edited by FlatHatter; 09-20-2011 at 02:15 PM.

  67. #67
    mtbr member
    Reputation: smilinsteve's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    8,613
    Quote Originally Posted by pleepleus View Post
    I choose not to fly because I can't take my knife or gun with me. Hell they don't even let you have a reel bottle of shampoo. My sister in law took a plane ride a while back with her infant and they took her formula away because the bottle was too big. Poor baby went like 12 hours with out any thing to eat.
    Yeah you can if you declare it and check it. But if you can't be without your gun for a couple hours while sitting on a plane, you've got some issues to deal with.

  68. #68
    mtbr member
    Reputation: knoob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    621
    Flying and going to Events are not rights. They are privileges! You agreed to their right to search you when you bought your ticket,ever read the "fine print".So stay at home watch the game on tv,drive to where you have go.Problem solved.....cuz those are your rights.

  69. #69
    mtbr member
    Reputation: theMeat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    4,450
    What about WHEN the TSA starts to do random check points, or you and your car drive through scanners and not even know it? First it was big brother was watching, now big Sis is too.
    Round and round we go

  70. #70
    mtbr member
    Reputation: theMeat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    4,450
    Quote Originally Posted by smilinsteve View Post
    Yeah you can if you declare it and check it. But if you can't be without your gun for a couple hours while sitting on a plane, you've got some issues to deal with.
    That's a joke, if some scary shampoo or baby food blows up in the cargo hold we're all safe?
    Round and round we go

  71. #71
    mtbr member
    Reputation: smilinsteve's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    8,613
    Quote Originally Posted by theMeat View Post
    That's a joke, if some scary shampoo or baby food blows up in the cargo hold we're all safe?
    I meant you can take a gun on a plane if you check it, not shampoo! I don't know all the rules, but I've seen it done many times.

  72. #72
    mtbr member
    Reputation: pleepleus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    389
    Really I don't fly because it's expensive and I like road trips. I like to stop and sight see along the way. I guess if I ever left the country for some reason I would take a plane.

  73. #73
    mtbr member
    Reputation: theMeat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    4,450
    Quote Originally Posted by smilinsteve View Post
    I meant you can take a gun on a plane if you check it, not shampoo! I don't know all the rules, but I've seen it done many times.
    OK, that's cool and so are you, but either way, you see my point?
    Round and round we go

  74. #74
    mtbr member
    Reputation: smilinsteve's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    8,613
    Quote Originally Posted by theMeat View Post
    OK, that's cool and so are you, but either way, you see my point?
    I think your point is that even with security, someone could blow you up?

  75. #75
    mtbr member
    Reputation: theMeat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    4,450
    Ummm yes, ummm no, ummm ?. Guess my point in this thread anyways is that taking away a persons rights and liberties in a country that claims to be free is not a good path nor in many ways safer.
    Round and round we go

  76. #76
    .
    Reputation: Timon's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    1,484
    there's a difference between rights and privileges.

    when the founding fathers came up with rights, they never in their wildest dreams imagined we'd be able to cram 500 people into an aluminum shell and go 500 knots at 40,000 feet.....and furthermore that there would be people capable of destroying all that with a shampoo bottle of liquid explosive and an ignition source.

    flying in an airplane owned by private shareholders or going to a football game run by a private organization (the arena may be built by the state government and then leased by the nfl).....those aren't rights. they're privileges we get by thankfully being born into a rich, technologically advanced, leisurely society.

    when the TSA walks into your house with a bodyscanner and starts feeling you up....then people will complain and probably elect politicians who will do something about it. that's not happening, so people can stop freaking out.

  77. #77
    mtbr member
    Reputation: smilinsteve's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    8,613
    Quote Originally Posted by theMeat View Post
    Ummm yes, ummm no, ummm ?. Guess my point in this thread anyways is that taking away a persons rights and liberties in a country that claims to be free is not a good path nor in many ways safer.
    I appreciate you defending rights and liberties, but I think old timers, like my dads age, laugh at our spoiled rotten expectations of wanting it all and sacrificing nothing. This country has had to fight to defend our freedoms, and great sacrifices were made when necessary.
    Remember the draft? Hows that for an example of taking away a persons rights? People have been forced to go to war and die, in order to fight an enemy and keep the country safe, and now we complain about having to take our shoes off.

  78. #78
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    446
    Quote Originally Posted by nomit View Post
    there's a difference between rights and privileges.

    when the founding fathers came up with rights...
    Founders did not "come up with rights." They were not bestowed upon us upon ratification of the first ten amendments. Natural rights are those which we have as human beings. That they were being infringed upon was the reason for the American Revolution. They cannot be granted, given, or taken away. They can be ignored, infringed upon, or exercised, but they do not exist or cease to exist as a result of whether or not they are honored.

    I said earlier, that the Constitution makes no mention of the Internet or cell phones, but that we don't pretend that the rights to free speech, freedom of the press, or to privacy are limited to the technology in existence when they were enumerated in the Constitution.

  79. #79
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    4,422
    I live in SoCal and just getting in our car to dive can
    lead to getting jacked upped. We have DUI check points,
    and Border Patrol checkpoints all over the place. Getting
    searched to fly on a plane doesn't seem like such a big
    deal comparied to just driving my car down the road. I
    went from Phoenix to San Diego and passed through
    3 Border Patrol checkpoints and a port of entry to California
    checkpoint.

    Best, John

  80. #80
    mtbr member
    Reputation: ChainChain's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    438
    Quote Originally Posted by pleepleus View Post
    I choose not to fly because I can't take my knife or gun with me. Hell they don't even let you have a reel bottle of shampoo. My sister in law took a plane ride a while back with her infant and they took her formula away because the bottle was too big. Poor baby went like 12 hours with out any thing to eat.
    You can bring guns, knives, ammunition, a real shampoo bottle on airplanes, just check it.
    I'm not saying that they didn't take your sisters baby formula but is it specifically exempt from the 3 oz rule.

    BTW a magazine of 45 caliber bullets going trough the skin of an airplane will not cause an explosive decompression. Think about when you flush a toilet on a plane. You are opening up a hole about 4 inches across to the outside pressure. The airplane can keep up with the pressure. Any way if someone unloads a magazine the plane will be landing asap anyway.

    The problem with shooting holes in the plane is hydrolic lines and bundles of wire that run all over the plane. FWIW air marshals use frangible ammo.

  81. #81
    mtbr member
    Reputation: theMeat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    4,450
    Quote Originally Posted by smilinsteve View Post
    I appreciate you defending rights and liberties, but I think old timers, like my dads age, laugh at our spoiled rotten expectations of wanting it all and sacrificing nothing. This country has had to fight to defend our freedoms, and great sacrifices were made when necessary.
    Remember the draft? Hows that for an example of taking away a persons rights? People have been forced to go to war and die, in order to fight an enemy and keep the country safe, and now we complain about having to take our shoes off.
    Good point.

    I mostly live in NYC, was here on 9/11 and volunteered at ground zero. On the recent 10 year anniversary many people i talked towanted to leave especially after the possible car/van bomb threat that was anounced. I felt the opposite and was pleasantly surprised when some of my friends called to arrange a hang out in the city day because they felt the same way. When you give into terror they're cause was won, so I spent the day in the city with friends and family, including my daughter. I also have friends who planned a trip mostly so they could fly on that day. I have no problem making sacrifices for a cause I believe in, and I'd gladly do anything to stop or get back at people who would try to harm us, but I'd beg to differ that taking our shoes of is doing anything more than making us look stupid, reactionary, and scared.
    Last edited by theMeat; 09-20-2011 at 05:01 PM.
    Round and round we go

  82. #82
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    1,770
    Quote Originally Posted by knoob View Post
    Flying and going to Events are not rights. They are privileges! You agreed to their right to search you when you bought your ticket,ever read the "fine print".So stay at home watch the game on tv,drive to where you have go.Problem solved.....cuz those are your rights.
    Plus 1000!!!!

    Take the bus, drive, walk or ride the train. There are a plethora of alternatives to flying. Don't like the strings attached to flying then seek alternative modes of transport.
    Monte
    Lodging & Guiding for SW Utah Trails
    http://www.vrbo.com/298759
    www.UtahMountainBikingAdventures.com
    MTBR Discounts

  83. #83
    .
    Reputation: Timon's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    1,484
    They cannot be granted, given, or taken away. They can be ignored, infringed upon, or exercised, but they do not exist or cease to exist as a result of whether or not they are honored.
    yes rights can be granted, taken away, cease to exist....etc. they only exist because we as a society say they exist and that's come about because we've evolved long enough to think critically and make decisions that would be in the best interest of our long and short term livelihood. there are no natural rights.

    BTW a magazine of 45 caliber bullets going trough the skin of an airplane will not cause an explosive decompression. Think about when you flush a toilet on a plane. You are opening up a hole about 4 inches across to the outside pressure. The airplane can keep up with the pressure. Any way if someone unloads a magazine the plane will be landing asap anyway.
    you don't poop into the sky dude. airplanes have sewage tanks.

  84. #84
    mtbr member
    Reputation: ChainChain's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    438
    Quote Originally Posted by nomit View Post
    yes rights can be granted, taken away, cease to exist....etc. they only exist because we as a society say they exist and that's come about because we've evolved long enough to think critically and make decisions that would be in the best interest of our long and short term livelihood. there are no natural rights.
    The framers of the the US constitution felt that people have "inalienable rights" and cannot be taken away by society.

    you don't poop into the sky dude. airplanes have sewage tanks.
    Thanks but the aircraft uses the pressure differential between the cabin and the outside environment to flush, or at least A320s do. Black water is held in a storage tank and grey water is vented overboard.

  85. #85
    .
    Reputation: Timon's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    1,484
    Quote Originally Posted by ChainChain View Post
    The framers of the the US constitution felt that people have "inalienable rights" and cannot be taken away by society.
    they also kept slaves.

    Thanks but the aircraft uses the pressure differential between the cabin and the outside environment to flush, or at least A320s do. Black water is held in a storage tank and grey water is vented overboard.
    you did refer to flushing a toilet and a 4 inch hole opening up. that is not dropped overboard. yes, they can purge some water....but that's through a heavily tested (and i bet enclosed) system. that's a far cry from some hillbilly opening up his magazine in an airplane because a muslim male stood up to go to the bathroom.

    the whole gun on airplanes thing is totally ridiculous anyways. it would open up such a big can of worms that it's not worth continuing this discussion. for instance if you're a terrorist organization...why not just all get ccw permits, put on bullet proof vests, and shoot all the other ccw guys on the plane...shoot open the cockpit door, and fly the plane into whatever populated area you feel like....if one of those bullets happened to not hit the fuel tanks and hydraulic lines. sounds a lot safer than the TSA doing an xray.

    (and now my computers gonna be monitored by the FBI for the rest of my life....thanks)

  86. #86
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    446
    Quote Originally Posted by nomit View Post
    they also kept slaves.
    That was socially accepted at the time. Are you saying the slaves had no rights, since society at the time did not recognize them and there's no such thing as natural rights?

    I would argue that the slave did have rights, but that they were violated. It's not just a semantic difference.

  87. #87
    mtbr member
    Reputation: ChainChain's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    438
    Nomit--

    I Agree the the CCW thing on airplanes is not realistic. My point is that a magazine unloaded through the skin of the airplane will not cause an explosive decompression. It takes a really big hole. I didn't mean to get side tracked into the finer points of the Airbus toilet flushing system.

  88. #88
    .
    Reputation: Timon's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    1,484
    That was socially accepted at the time. Are you saying the slaves had no rights, since society at the time did not recognize them and there's no such thing as natural rights?
    yes.

    I would argue that the slave did have rights, but that they were violated. It's not just a semantic difference.
    under our current ideals of laws their rights were violated. any rights anyone has are created and governed by the society in which they live.

    does a seamonkey have a right to life? no...it simply exists and ceases to exist.
    does a dog? same principle
    monkey? same
    unborn child? same
    ...etc

    under an alien lifeforms laws our current american 'rights' may be considered violated because we have to take a test to drive a car or we have to pay taxes on money we've earned or we can't legally eat our mothers when we've reached puberty.

    it's all relative.

  89. #89
    Five is right out
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    3,174
    @ChainChain: Great line. I hope you don't mind me using that as my sig for a while

  90. #90
    All Lefty's, all the time Moderator
    Reputation: MendonCycleSmith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    15,382
    Quote Originally Posted by customfab View Post
    Did you ask for a reach around during your pat down?
    Woulda felt odd, being the guy was old enough to be my grandfather

    As for this thread, all I can say is, wow.

    Keep up the good work fellas, I've never started one of these before!
    This is a Pugs not some carbon wannabee pretzel wagon!!

    - FrostyStruthers



    www.mendoncyclesmith.com

  91. #91
    Old Time 1310 DB4
    Reputation: FlatHatter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    31
    Quote Originally Posted by ChainChain View Post
    BTW a magazine of 45 caliber bullets going trough the skin of an airplane will not cause an explosive decompression. .... Any way if someone unloads a magazine the plane will be landing asap anyway..... FWIW air marshals use frangible ammo.
    Again, no one said a bullet will cause explosive decompression. Not sure where that came from.....too much Goldfinger, perhaps?

    The plane will likely land asap, assuming of course it's not above the Atlantic or Pacific oceans or some other expansive body of water.

    Air marshals....that is correct, and I presume there is a reason for that. So, are we supposed to now entrust the TSA guy to inspect every magazine before boarding in order to determine if the correct ammo is being carried? Really?

  92. #92
    Old Time 1310 DB4
    Reputation: FlatHatter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    31
    Quote Originally Posted by eric1115 View Post
    Founders did not "come up with rights." They were not bestowed upon us upon ratification of the first ten amendments. Natural rights are those which we have as human beings. That they were being infringed upon was the reason for the American Revolution. They cannot be granted, given, or taken away. They can be ignored, infringed upon, or exercised, but they do not exist or cease to exist as a result of whether or not they are honored.
    +1

    Anyone who thinks otherwise needs to study some social contract theory ala John Locke, along with the idea of natural rights.

  93. #93
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    68
    Quote Originally Posted by nomit View Post
    there's a difference between rights and privileges.

    when the founding fathers came up with rights, they never in their wildest dreams imagined we'd be able to cram 500 people into an aluminum shell and go 500 knots at 40,000 feet.....and furthermore that there would be people capable of destroying all that with a shampoo bottle of liquid explosive and an ignition source.

    flying in an airplane owned by private shareholders or going to a football game run by a private organization (the arena may be built by the state government and then leased by the nfl).....those aren't rights. they're privileges we get by thankfully being born into a rich, technologically advanced, leisurely society.

    when the TSA walks into your house with a bodyscanner and starts feeling you up....then people will complain and probably elect politicians who will do something about it. that's not happening, so people can stop freaking out.
    The technology that did or did not exist or the threat that did or did not exist when the founders penned the constitution and its accompanying bill of rights has no bearing on the rights guaranteed by the constitution and its accompanying bill of rights. Chiefly the right to be protected from unreasonable search and seizure and the need for probable cause before any search and seizure as guaranteed by the 4th amendment. That right is not changed and is violated by the actions of the TSA hourly. The potential of a crime is ever present so why are you not ok with them coming into your home and searching you? Its just for the safety of society, right? What if your neighbor was making homemade bombs or stockpiling dangerous chemicals? Where is the line drawn?

    The answer is simple, the line is drawn as laid out in the constitution, if there is no probable cause, the search cannot take place and the simple principle of innocent until proven guilty applies. The situation the TSA has created is finding every traveler guilty until they prove themselves innocent by submitting to whatever invasive forms of search they feel like committing. If you opt out of the search, even if you opt out with the decision to not fly you are still fined and often charged with a crime for not submitting, that is not the free country we are purported to be, that is a police state.

    Additionally, what you say about the stadiums and the airlines is 100% correct they are PRIVATE organizations, if THEY were imposing these searches and rules as part of the passenger agreement to fly that would be a whole different discussion and you are correct the discussions of the rights of the people would shift, albeit a small amount, but there would be a shift. The problem is they are not the ones instituting and conducting the searches, the US government is, and it is overstepping its bounds and imposing unconstitutional searches, based on nothing even closely resembling probable cause, with highly questionable results.
    "Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth"
    - Albert Einstein

  94. #94
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    737
    Heck, I fly just for the pat-downs

  95. #95
    Old Time 1310 DB4
    Reputation: FlatHatter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    31
    Quote Originally Posted by ntlarson View Post
    The problem is they are not the ones instituting and conducting the searches, the US government is.....



    Bingo! And therefore it is government intrusion no matter which way you slice it.

  96. #96
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    446
    Quote Originally Posted by nomit View Post
    yes.


    under our current ideals of laws their rights were violated. any rights anyone has are created and governed by the society in which they live.

    does a seamonkey have a right to life? no...it simply exists and ceases to exist.
    does a dog? same principle
    monkey? same
    unborn child? same
    ...etc

    under an alien lifeforms laws our current american 'rights' may be considered violated because we have to take a test to drive a car or we have to pay taxes on money we've earned or we can't legally eat our mothers when we've reached puberty.

    it's all relative.
    That's the biggest load of crap I've ever read. So you're saying that the German Jews in WWII had no right to resist the Third Reich? Were the American colonies wrong to revolt against the British? Our whole system of government is based on the idea that we do not receive our rights from the society we live in, but that individual rights belong to us simply because we are humans. Can never be taken away. Violated, yes, but never removed.

    Hypothetical: You and I are stranded on a desert island. You've gathered some food, and I want to take it. I wander over with a big stick and demand that you give me your food or I'll stove your head in. Two people do not constitute a society. Are you honestly saying that I would be in the clear to take your coconuts and crush your skull? That you have no right to defend yourself? If there are no rights for me to violate, what's the problem?

    This is actually one of the problems that the founders saw with democracy. They vehemently opposed it. Our country was set up as a representative republic. Democracy is tyranny of the majority. In other words, democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
    Last edited by eric1115; 09-21-2011 at 10:30 AM.

  97. #97
    .
    Reputation: Timon's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    1,484
    Quote Originally Posted by eric1115 View Post
    That's the biggest load of crap I've ever read.
    this idea that we're somehow different from other animals and we have this inherent right to stuff is a big load of crap. at that point you're just throwing evolution out the window.

    So you're saying that the German Jews in WWII had no right to resist the Third Reich?
    a right to resist doesn't make much sense. yes, they may have had the desire to resist in order to keep living as a society and believing what they believe (but obviously not the ability as a society)....but that doesn't mean it's a right.

    Were the American colonies wrong to revolt against the British?
    by the british standards....sure. because the british wanted the american colonies to operate under their set of rights/laws. by the american colonies standards, they felt the need to revolt so that they could set up their own society based on what they thought was right and wrong.

    Our whole system of government is based on the idea that we do not receive our rights from the society we live in, but that individual rights belong to us simply because we are humans.
    people set up this society by creating rights, the bill of rights, a declaration of independence....etc. it was never inherently handed down to anyone by some higher being. just because the founding fathers worded them as 'inalienable' doesn't make them natural and unable to be removed.

    Hypothetical: You and I are stranded on a desert island. You've gathered some food, and I want to take it. I wander over with a big stick and demand that you give me your food or I'll stove your head in. Two people do not constitute a society. Are you honestly saying that I would be in the clear to take your coconuts and crush your skull? That you have no right to defend yourself? If there are no rights for me to violate, what's the problem?
    it would be me vs you for the coconuts. because me defending myself for the right to the coconuts is in the best interest of my short/long term livelihood....and obviously by coming over and trying to take them you figured it was in your best interest as a living being to forcefully remove the coconuts from my possession.

    there's no laws or right to life or right to coconuts. the coconuts exist, you exist, i exist....in order for one of us to continue to exist we must eat a limited supply of coconuts, and so something's gotta give. nowhere do rights come into play.

  98. #98
    Old Time 1310 DB4
    Reputation: FlatHatter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    31
    Quote Originally Posted by nomit View Post
    people set up this society by creating rights, the bill of rights, a declaration of independence....etc. it was never inherently handed down to anyone by some higher being. just because the founding fathers worded them as 'inalienable' doesn't make them natural and unable to be removed.

    You are confusing the idea of positive rights with natural rights.

    Fortunately for us, the founding fathers worded them as inalienable rights and did so precisely because they are natural and cannot be removed.

    "Let it be known that the British liberties are not the grants of princes of parliaments, but original rights, conditions of original contracts, coequal with prerogative, and coeval with government. That many of our rights are inherent and essential, agreed on as maxims and established as preliminaries even before a parliament existed."

    ---John Adams, 1765

  99. #99
    Bicyclochondriac.
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    13,473
    TSA body scanners are a totally none issue to me. When it comes to assaults on our freedoms, this does not even make the top 100. It is somewhere down around requiring a drivers test to get a license. IMO, giving people a pat down and/or a scan before getting on a plane is completely reasonable. I'm just not sensing any ulterior motive, here.

    I think getting all worked up over something as trivial as this is counterproductive, as it lessens the impact of legitimate concerns about threats to freedom that ARE real.
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

  100. #100
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    446
    Quote Originally Posted by nomit View Post
    it would be me vs you for the coconuts. because me defending myself for the right to the coconuts is in the best interest of my short/long term livelihood....and obviously by coming over and trying to take them you figured it was in your best interest as a living being to forcefully remove the coconuts from my possession.

    there's no laws or right to life or right to coconuts. the coconuts exist, you exist, i exist....in order for one of us to continue to exist we must eat a limited supply of coconuts, and so something's gotta give. nowhere do rights come into play.
    First, I'd like to apologize for my words and tone at the beginning of my last post. We disagree. That doesn't mean I should insult you.

    Secondly, I'll alter and expand on that hypothetical question...

    Suppose you were a member of the Coast Guard and came upon a deserted island with 7 people. Four are big strong dudes with a big stick. The other three are little old ladies that they're forcing via threat of physical harm to gather food for them. Dudes are giving them just enough of it for them to survive and continue gathering food. Dudes say "No, it's OK, we voted. We're actually pretty comfortable. Also, we will kill any of these little old ladies that tries to leave with you. Carry on!" What do you do? (assume you have enough force on board to do whatever you deem to be appropriate)

    Lastly, Mendon, I apologize to you for my part in dragging this thread so far into the weeds.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Full Body and forearm protection
    By juan pablo in forum Downhill - Freeride
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 04-22-2011, 01:00 PM
  2. Downieville Full Body Armor?
    By gfung00 in forum Apparel and Protection
    Replies: 18
    Last Post: 05-19-2010, 05:21 PM
  3. pics from our FULL body BJ
    By Texas Lew in forum Colorado - Front Range
    Replies: 20
    Last Post: 03-07-2008, 09:39 AM
  4. full body work out?
    By brakeslide in forum XC Racing and Training
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 05-29-2006, 12:44 AM
  5. airport shuttle from durango airport
    By dhz in forum Colorado - Western Slope
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 05-17-2004, 09:27 AM

Members who have read this thread: 0

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •