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  1. #1
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    Take offs sold as new

    Let's say you are buying a new bike, which is being built up piece by piece instead of bought as a complete bike.

    Let's say you determine that the shop selling it is using take offs from other bikes, and that you are charged the new part price.

    Is that something that would tick you off? Or would you figure - hey, it's not heavily used, I never would have known the difference?

    Me - I think a take off is a take off and should be disclosed as such.

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    Not only do I want new parts in boxes, I feel that charging new prices for take off parts is a fraudulent practice and should be persued as such.

  3. #3
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    I am confused about why a bike shop would do this. now they have a bunch of bikes with missing parts that they have to replace with new parts. it's a bad deal for them, but it really should not affect your bike in the end.

  4. #4
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    take off as in "used 5 times" or take off as in "before the customer even bought he wanted to swap out rear derailuer, saddle and stem"?

    If a bike was built up and sat on showroom floor and the buyer wanted to replace host of parts and the bike never hit the dirt.. It really is a new part. Just no box. Technically a take off, but very similar to a new return part. Depending on what it is it could very well be new and never used.
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  5. #5
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    I would want to make sure it came with the full warranty, and I would expect some kind of discount from msrp.

  6. #6
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    I am trying to picture this and here is where I am: A shop has many take offs from customers buying new bikes and swapping out parts prior to the purchase. The shop now has boxes of "new" parts sitting around. The shop hatches a plan to sell said parts. They buy a frame, build it up with take offs and sell it new to a customer. Is the bike new? Yes. Are the parts new? Yes. Will you get a warranty on the bike? Most likely but similar to other new bikes...lifetime or so on the frame and a year on the parts.

    Is the bike unique and totally custom? Yes and it is now badass as well.

    I think the shop should be able to charge whatever a buyer is willing to pay for it. Could be a sweet ride.
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by daves4mtb View Post
    Me - I think a take off is a take off and should be disclosed as such.
    Lets say I run a bike shop. You come to my shop and find out you really like a particular bike in my display, only you prefer it with a different saddle. Lets say the original saddle on the bike retails for $50, but you want a Brooks that retails at $100.

    Normally that would be a $50 swap, you get the $100 Brooks and I put the $50 original saddle on sale in my shop at $50 because it's still brand new and unused.

    However someone decides it's now a take off and that I can only sell it at $40 because it once sat on a display bike. So in order to make up that loss I have to ask you $110 for the $100 Brooks saddle you wanted for your new bike. Or I can refuse to refund you the full price of the original saddle, because now it's a marked down take off. Either way it gets more expensive for you.

    In short, take offs ARE new parts as long as they haven't seen any use.

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    "New" means untouched, in original packaging.

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    I consider a take off part new if it hasn't seen any use. I could care less about a box it came in.

  10. #10
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    Is it really the public perception that shops are ripping consumers off by "underhanded" tactics such as moving new parts from one bike to another? Is a part used after the shop test rides it? Are only parts in boxes new? If that is the case there are no manufacturers that install new parts. OEM parts are not in boxes.

    There are so many more important considerations to think about. This is just silly paranoia. No wonder there are so many shops having to close their doors.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OGWGFIWRT View Post
    . OEM parts are not in boxes.
    THIS is what everybody is concerned about. Somehow a box makes it better and worth more in their heads.

    NEW is NEW is NEW. Not used. If it is used, then you deserve a discount. The parts on a new bike did not all come in a box when installed on the bike. You do not get a discount for them.

    If you don't like their business model, shop elsewhere. Whining about it here does nothing.
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    Assuming the parts are unused, I couldn't care any less about this.

  13. #13
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    New parts do not have to come in the boxes, I've got mine brand new OEM parts in a plastic bags and they are not take offs, of course I didn't pay full price, but I didn't get it from the lbs either. I'd considered a showroom take off as new, a little discount would have been nice but not necessary.

    If I want cheaper parts I'd just buy the parts and bring it to the shop. What level of the parts is it.

  14. #14
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    unused? i could care less about getting my stem in a box. less landfill. as long as it is unused i have no problem paying msrp.

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    I would still classify it as new yes and do not have any issue with it.

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    I would say that it is conventional to notify the customer of this and often to lower the price a bit. Many shops have a policy that once it is installed it is no longer new, but this can be very impractical sometimes. e.g., trying tires to make sure they clear the frame.

    OEM parts are typically cheaper, so if the shop is marking them up based on the cost of new parts in the box, they will have a higher profit margin, communicating this practice to the customer is important(to the customer) because the customer will have a better sense of the bargaining position of the shop. Of course the shop has an incentive to not let you know.

    Sandrensaren's example of a $50 saddle is relevant, as one might wonder where the price came from. Most shops(all of the dozen I've worked at) won't give you full msrp(when buying a new bike from them) on a take-off, new, OEM part that you can subtract from the price of the bike or keep as store credit, since they know that people will want to pay less for that new, OEM part. Unless its a high-end part, shops I've worked at will typically throw the take-offs into a deep discount box and give the customer a discount on the upgrade.

    There is no straightforward answer other than that it is reasonable for the customer to expect the shop to answer questions truthfully, and both parties can bargain from there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bankerboy View Post
    NEW is NEW is NEW. Not used. If it is used, then you deserve a discount. The parts on a new bike did not all come in a box when installed on the bike. You do not get a discount for them.
    parts get damaged much more often when shipped while attached to an assembled bike; parts are also damaged at times during assembly. There's a higher probability that you're receiving a slightly damaged part if its take-off.

    New and used are not always easily distinguished; the part in the box comes with extra information that is worth $ to most people.

    And the 1 year warranty on parts: if you're honest with the sales rep, there's a higher likelihood that the warranty will be denied.

    Fortunately we have well-functioning markets that tell us about how consumers feel about this issue; quite consistently, OEM parts are worth less than straight from the mfg in a box, as evidenced by bikeisland parts, ebay parts that advertise OEM, etc.

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    I would hope/expect a price break on a take-off part, no matter what it is, ecspecially if you frequent this shop. Just sayin.
    Oldest daughter doesn't ride.

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    I don't really care so long as nothing is wrong with
    the part. However maybe I'm lucky because the shops
    I go to always give me a good discount.

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    if the shop is doing you a favor to get the part to the customer faster than i would expect to pay full price
    if you are not in a rush and these are new take offs, i don't see why you would pay the same as boxed retail..

    if these are used, i would expect at least 40% off

  21. #21
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    I'm curious, how do you know it's a take off, and/or the parts been used. Beside the obvious lack of retail packages of course.


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  22. #22
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    II watched the mechanic take a stem off of a new bike on the showroom floor to sell to me. I wanted a wide handlebar and a short stem. He did not have the stem length I wanted on the shelf. He took a slightly longer stem, walked over to a new Trek bike, and swapped them. I bought the handlebar and shorter stem at full MSRP.

    No problem. He would certainly adjust stem length for the customer who eventually buys the new Trek. Everyone does fine.
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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavyRay View Post
    II watched the mechanic take a stem off of a new bike on the showroom floor to sell to me. I wanted a wide handlebar and a short stem. He did not have the stem length I wanted on the shelf. He took a slightly longer stem, walked over to a new Trek bike, and swapped them. I bought the handlebar and shorter stem at full MSRP.

    No problem. He would certainly adjust stem length for the customer who eventually buys the new Trek. Everyone does fine.
    Did you ask for a discount? I'm a craft vendor (I sell a high priced wooden craft I make myself) and after 15 years of doing so, I've learned to never offer a discount until asked, Just like a hotel room there's usually a better price if you are willing to jump through a few hoops.
    Keep in mind that he probably put a full price stem from inventory on the bike you got yours from.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandrenseren View Post
    Lets say I run a bike shop. You come to my shop and find out you really like a particular bike in my display, only you prefer it with a different saddle. Lets say the original saddle on the bike retails for $50, but you want a Brooks that retails at $100.

    Normally that would be a $50 swap, you get the $100 Brooks and I put the $50 original saddle on sale in my shop at $50 because it's still brand new and unused.

    However someone decides it's now a take off and that I can only sell it at $40 because it once sat on a display bike. So in order to make up that loss I have to ask you $110 for the $100 Brooks saddle you wanted for your new bike. Or I can refuse to refund you the full price of the original saddle, because now it's a marked down take off. Either way it gets more expensive for you.

    In short, take offs ARE new parts as long as they haven't seen any use.
    In this scenario, we are pretending that the LBS actually paid $50 for the original seat. They didn't. It came as part of a bike. They don't pay retail and they don't pay the sum of all of the individual parts for the bike. In reality they paid less than $40. So, I believe they can do the upgrade as described for $50 (they'll make a profit there) and then sell the "take off" seat for $40 (they'll make a profit there, too). I guess I'm an educated consumer.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by huffster View Post
    In this scenario, we are pretending that the LBS actually paid $50 for the original seat. They didn't. It came as part of a bike. They don't pay retail and they don't pay the sum of all of the individual parts for the bike. In reality they paid less than $40. So, I believe they can do the upgrade as described for $50 (they'll make a profit there) and then sell the "take off" seat for $40 (they'll make a profit there, too). I guess I'm an educated consumer.
    A realistic and reasonable mark up on merchandise in most retail stores is between 50 and 100 percent. So in the same scenario you are quoting the store would have paid between $20 and $30 for the saddle they are selling for $40. So that makes a (taking the higher markup) a $20 "profit" in your world.

    Except What overhead did you factor into your math?

    Property Rent - very few own the land and building where they are located. Easily bite close to 30 -50 percent of the profit.
    Personnel - Unless they live in their shop, there are others who work there. Subtract 30% of the profit
    Day to day expenses (electricity, gas, water, insurance, payroll taxes, bank expenses ) - Subtract another 20% of the profit

    As far as an educated consumer, I am not disputing that. The problem is when the educated feels they are entitled. I think that is the real issue out there. The internet shops exist for those people. But those are the same folks who scream about crappy service from the on-line shops. Sometimes we can't have it both ways. There will be some LBS's that are standouts and have the volume to work this way. The majority are squeaking by.

    So on a $40 dollar saddle where you believe there is a $20 profit and feel entitled to a discount, the real profit is far less. It is not unrealistic for a retail bike shop to work on the margin. So don't be too surprised that they don't go out of their way to offer a discount on a new and unused take-off.
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  26. #26
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    I wouldn't pay MSRP for take-offs but I really won't pay MSRP for anything. As long as the part is still warrantied and is good as new, I wouldn't mind a bit. I did find out a LBS owner ordered me a "blem" frame without disclosing to me that it was a blem and that bugged me a bit

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by mack_turtle View Post
    I am confused about why a bike shop would do this. now they have a bunch of bikes with missing parts that they have to replace with new parts. it's a bad deal for them, but it really should not affect your bike in the end.
    Some shops will buy a bunch of year end leftover bikes in weird frame sizes from manufacturers (at wholesale discount), part them out and make more money that way. Seems like it's usually shops that do web sales as well.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by elwoodturner View Post
    Did you ask for a discount? I'm a craft vendor (I sell a high priced wooden craft I make myself) and after 15 years of doing so, I've learned to never offer a discount until asked, Just like a hotel room there's usually a better price if you are willing to jump through a few hoops.
    Keep in mind that he probably put a full price stem from inventory on the bike you got yours from.
    Yes. He took the full price stem from inventory and installed it on the new Trek on the shop floor. I got the shorter stem which he removed from the same bike. I guess the shop would do similar parts swaps to get the cockpit right for the customer buying the new bike from them. They are pretty much full MSRP, but are a full-service shop.
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  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkley View Post
    Some shops will buy a bunch of year end leftover bikes in weird frame sizes from manufacturers (at wholesale discount), part them out and make more money that way. Seems like it's usually shops that do web sales as well.
    This. If they part out a NEW bike with NEW parts that they got at a discounted rate, good on them. It might not be "in the box" new...and I know how most of us like to get our new toys and open them ourselves...but it's never used, not a floor model, has shop service/implied warranty and mfr's warranty attached to it. BFD.

  30. #30
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    Some of you guys are mixed up bad. Would you prefer if the shop in an attempt to "be totally honest", adopted a new policy:

    Step one: Sell you a bike..."as equiped" only.
    Step two: Sell you "in the box" upgrades at msrp.
    Step three: Charge you to install your parts and void any warranty because they are your parts.

    You leave with a new bike and a bag of "used parts" and new boxes.

    The shop is just trying to get you on the bike you want. Give them a break.
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  31. #31
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    I am of the opinion that it is none of my business what profit the shop makes. They provide as service, the service costs money, I am either willing to pay or I take my business somewhere else.

    As a consumer I ask questions when I purchase things. It is not our right as a consumers to know what a shop pays for the merchandise they sell and thus their profit margin. But I do believe it is our right to have a degree of certainty that what we are purchasing is new and warranted as such. If not, it should be disclosed and we should have the option to purchase or not.

    I recently purchased an XT front shifter for $15 bucks. It was disclosed that it was OEM and it came in a plastic bag with the cable and that was it. No instructions, housing or other parts that usually come with brand new shifters. I saved $65 off of MSRP and I was stoked! If I had purchased the same part from a LBS and had them instal it, I would have paid the price they were asking and I would not have known if they paid $15 bucks or wholesale, but I would have rolled away happy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by floydlippencott View Post
    "New" means untouched, in original packaging.
    so there is no such thing as a new bike on the showroom floor?


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    this thread is so full of stupid...


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    Quote Originally Posted by daves4mtb View Post
    Let's say you are buying a new bike, which is being built up piece by piece instead of bought as a complete bike.

    Let's say you determine that the shop selling it is using take offs from other bikes, and that you are charged the new part price.

    Is that something that would tick you off? Or would you figure - hey, it's not heavily used, I never would have known the difference?

    Me - I think a take off is a take off and should be disclosed as such.
    OEM vs non OEM, there is a difference in price. I would be pretty ticked off, getting ripped off does not sit well with me, unless its disclosed.

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    If all of these parts are new, does it really matter if they
    come in a box? 5 minutes down the trail who the hell is
    ever going to know the difference. If they work that is all
    that should matter.

  36. #36
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    Misrepresentation seems to be the thing that most people are taking issue with. If your going to sell take off parts, disclosure of that would eliminate any potential misunderstandings.

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Kuhl View Post
    If all of these parts are new, does it really matter if they
    come in a box? 5 minutes down the trail who the hell is
    ever going to know the difference. If they work that is all
    that should matter.
    lmao, is that what you think the difference between oem and non oem is? I'm guessing yes going by your answer, but no you are wrong.
    Some parts are classified as just oem, you can't buy them as non oem, an oem version of a fork will differ from a version thats offered to the public, it could be less features or more/less travel, steel stanchions etc. An oem component can be of lesser quality than a non oem component. That's why they are generally cheaper, and no the box does not make up the difference. Marzocchi was big on this.
    Personally, I stay away from oem components whenever possible.
    Last edited by SV11; 01-24-2013 at 03:52 PM.

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    ^ I'm talking about the same exact part. One that comes
    in a box and one that doesn't. If they are the "same" I don't
    have a problem. Of course if they are different all bets are
    off.

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    we've lost sight of the op's scenario in which he got what he wanted from a new bike.

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Kuhl View Post
    ^ I'm talking about the same exact part. One that comes
    in a box and one that doesn't. If they are the "same" I don't
    have a problem. Of course if they are different all bets are
    off.
    The part that doesn't come in a box is not generally from the component manufacturer, the manufacturer doesn't ship a component without a box to the public. There is usally a difference, sometimes slight, sometimes massive.

    Warranty claims of OEM Shimano parts
    Shimano components that comes as a built up bikes as offered by the manufacturers/brands , should be refered back to the bicycle manufacturers/brands through the outlets/dealers respectively. As these are not serviced by the Shimano distributors. That should clear it up for you.

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    I'd be okay paying full price in that situation... If I didn't want to I could order the part and wait a week to get it or get a brand new one right there. Seems like a no brainer to me. Warranty is the same, etc...

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by daves4mtb View Post
    Wrong. In that scenario, I did not get what I consider new parts mor was there any disclosure of the issue.
    so you don't consider a showroom floor model new?


  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by SV11 View Post
    The part that doesn't come in a box is not generally from the component manufacturer, the manufacturer doesn't ship a component without a box to the public. There is usally a difference, sometimes slight, sometimes massive.

    Warranty claims of OEM Shimano parts
    Shimano components that comes as a built up bikes as offered by the manufacturers/brands , should be refered back to the bicycle manufacturers/brands through the outlets/dealers respectively. As these are not serviced by the Shimano distributors. That should clear it up for you.
    so how's OEM Shimano different from bike manufactures? They are the same damn parts. Very little exception, like the first press fit bb and bolt on front der, but not the issues for most bikes. The example you mentioned would make more sense if you are referring to fox.

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    At my shop we have a large collection of pull offs from customer upgrades on new bikes etc. To me a pull off part means only used enough to set the bike up initially. Never used on the trail or anything. All of these parts are full disclosure and a minimum 10% off retail.

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    Quote Originally Posted by daves4mtb View Post
    So you think you know that there is no warranty issue? I doubt that. I think you assume there is no warranty issue but the reality is it is unclear. Just one of the problems ...
    Do you have documented proof you can post here? I would really like to see this in print rather than "this guy heard from a friend who's twice removed cousin worked once in a bike shop...:

    Speculative at best.
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  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by daves4mtb View Post
    So you think you know that there is no warranty issue? I doubt that. I think you assume there is no warranty issue but the reality is it is unclear. Just one of the problems ...
    The sale goes down in inventory as a new part sold out of inventory. It likely makes the count go to -1, store orders new part and replaces back on original bike so that it is spec'd properly. For all anyone understands, you bought a new part from the store. You have receipt, etc., all works out the same, so I would really expect the warranty to be honored.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mimi1885 View Post
    so how's OEM Shimano different from bike manufactures? They are the same damn parts. Very little exception, like the first press fit bb and bolt on front der, but not the issues for most bikes. The example you mentioned would make more sense if you are referring to fox.
    Well, fox have done it, shimano have done it, marzocchi has done it, and nearly every other company has done it. They have to otherwise using non oem components on a bike would cost way too much to buy, as a complete bike.
    You have to look at the big picture. Lets say Trek reaches out to shimano with an order of xxx saint deraillers @ xxx dollars. Shimano just doesn't go ahead and grab saint deraillers from the warehouse and send it out, they have a limited budget and they will do whatever it takes to reach that goal, whether it's using steel hardware vs alu, or using loose ball bearings instead of sealed bearings and so forth (it could be one of many things). With forks, the difference can be steel stanchions on the oem, steel steerer on the oem (vs alu for the non oem), less adjustability and so on. How much of the oem dffers from the non oem relies on how much chop and change to reach their target. Bike manufacturers have a target of how much they can spend on each bike, and to make it appealling they need to spec it well. Thats why often you will see entry level or mid range bikes with a high end rear derailleur. This isn't something new, it's been around for as long as I've been into bikes. The warranty info i included in my previous post is a big give away.


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    Last edited by SV11; 01-24-2013 at 09:59 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by daves4mtb View Post
    Maybe you would wxpect that but your post doesnt explain why. The warranty is up to the part mfr. i tried to answer this question by looking at shimano's site and couldnt. Even called shimano's warranty dept and got a noncommittal vague answer. And that is just one mfr. how you wanna bet they all handle it differently?
    If you have a receipt for a new part from a store that is an authorized dealer, they will honor the warranty. Ideally you'd just go back to the shop you got it from and they'd take care of it.

  49. #49
    Rod
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    If the seatpost was scuffed and visible if I was taller than where it was set on the old bike that would be one thing, but if it's a stem then there is no problem. Do I need a box? No. Do I care if my seatpost is scratched and visible? Yes ... would I expect a discount on the seatpost...yes... on the stem...no.... should they honor the warranty? without question
    There is not much choice between rotten apples.

  50. #50
    Five is right out
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    If the shop disclosed it was a take-off, then I would not care. I go to the LBS for convenience and because I like them... cheap is for the internet.

    If the only way I could get the part immediately was for that part to come off another bike, then I'd have no problem for with that. It beats waiting for an order to come in. If they throw in a discount, then great. But I would not feel entitled to one.

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