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  1. #1
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    Spiderflex vs SpongyWonder Saddles?

    I'm a 61 yr old male rider, recently back on a bike after a 30 yr hiatus. I'm enjoying the hell out of riding again, great exercise, but the down side is the pain I'm having in my posterior after 10+ mile rides. I don't have any medical problems (prostate, urological, etc.), but the Bell Saddle on my bike gets really uncomfortable. Ive been reading about hornless saddles, Spiderflex and SpongyWonder models. Does anyone have any experience with either of them? Do I need any additional parts or equipment to install them? Your suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
    Thanks

  2. #2
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    I've never used a hornless saddle, so I can't speak to that. I do know that the saddle horn is one of the ways you control your bike, especially on the down hills when you're off your saddle and holding it between your legs. I've read that this can be an issue for people who've used hornless saddles for mtbing.

    Before you give up on a conventional saddle, consider a few things:

    It's typical to have some soreness until your butt gets used to it. How long have you been at it? It may take a half dozen rides.

    If your saddle is heavily padded, it will feel great at first and then begin to hurt. A soft saddle conforms into your soft tissues and they don't like that. Your sit bones should do most of the supporting. Try a moderately padded saddle.

    Some guys like saddles with relief slots down the middle - me, I never found that to be a deciding factor, but all butts are different.

    Try a few different saddles - there's lots of good ones for $30 or $40.

    If you're riding a hardtail, consider a suspension seatpost.
    Use it, use it, use it while you still have it.

  3. #3
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    If your Bell saddle is one of those gel type saddles then that may be your biggest problem as they are notorious for looking comfy and causing major pain. There are a lot of great conventional saddles that are pretty comfortable out there, but Bell is not one that comes to mind. I am almost 53 and I pay my dues every season as I get back into the saddle again. Thats not necessarily an age related thing, but just a part of conditioning. If you have been away for 30 years then its likely that you will have some catch-up to do regardless of what kind of saddle you ride.

    One saddle that is supposed to be very comfortable is the Selle Anatomica titanico. It is leather with no padding, but it is designed to flex and "hammock" in a way that provides a really comfortable ride. Not cheap, but if riding is a commitment for you then maybe that would be a another option to the "hornless" saddles which provide no side leverage when riding off-road.

    Website for Selle Anatomica saddles: http://www.selleanatomica.com/

  4. #4
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    I've been wrenching for more than a decade and I've only seen two people ever try those things. They both got rid of them pretty quickly. You don't need a gimmick. You need a saddle that fits. More padding does not equal more comfort in any way. Go to a couple shops and ask them about options for demoing a few saddles.

  5. #5
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    I totally agree with the previous post. After getting on the bike after a 6 year break, I went back to riding my soft saddle due to comfort, after just a few short weeks of consistent riding I actually developed protatitis from the seat pressure. Tried one of the split saddles and it helped slightly, but finally switched to a firm seat with little to no padding and all my issues went away! Your sit bones will toughen up quickly and trust me, it's much better than hurting in other places

  6. #6
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    Hello to everyone! My name is Jeff Dixon and I am the inventor of the Spongy Wonder Bike Seat. I like to be logical about these things so hope this helps. I hope no one minds point form:

    1. The desire to eliminate pressure to the perineum, genitals and prostate has been going on since the invention of the bicycle as may be seen by the US patents shown here:

    Extra Stuff » Spongy Wonder

    2. Evidence that establishes that there is an issue can be seen by the very partial and incomplete list found here:

    Your Health » Spongy Wonder

    3. The existence of "modified" conventional (horned seats) Specialized Body Geometry, Koobi, Cobb, Adamo, etc., etc. and the existence of padded shorts is an acknowledgement that there is a problem.

    4. The reports of thousands of riders and their purchase of 10,000s of modified conventional seats and so called "alternative" seats such as the Spiderflex, Hobson and Spongy Wonder is evidence that there is a problem.

    5. Then we have the anecdotal histories of countless riders who have suffered.

    6. How about plain old common sense. What are the glutes for? Just for looking at, grabbing and locomotion? Would you like to sit on a conventional bicycle seat all day at work?

    7. Many riders who post suggest that this all about fit. Well, try as you might you are still placing pressure on the dorsal nerve and internal pudendal artery. Ever have an arm fall asleep? Did you enjoy the sensation? Do you think it would be healthy to repeat to over and over again? In Europe the damage to cyclists is well known and surgical procedures exist to help. No one wakes up and discovers they have cancer on the day the cancer starts. So lots of riders have not yet seen apparent symptoms. Lots of people who smoke do not get lung cancer. Are we now denying that smoking causes lung cancer because not everyone gets it?

    It quite obvious that sitting with pressure on the perineum, genitals, tailbone and prostate is unnatural and destructive. Common sense, medical studies, and anecdotal histories have established this beyond question.

    Let us also remember that many. many riders have problems they do not admit. Unless of course you believe that riders are more than willing to fully divulge to anyone who will listen that they have trouble in the sack. many riders do not want to buy a seat such as ours because they think others will draw "certain" conclusions. Here is the real conclusion others draw: "That guy is being smart by protecting himself. I wish I had done it sooner." "Thanks honey for caring about us." When on the rare occasion someone on a trail has made a sarcastic remark to me I always say the same thing: "When I get home after my 50 mile ride I am going to take a shower, eat as much pizza as I want, drink a couple of beers and see my lady (wink, wink, nudge, nudge). What are you going to do?" It is very surprising how many of them say nothing in return. HMMMMM?

    Thanks for your time!

    Jeff Dixon
    Inventor of the Spongy Wonder
    from the True North STRONG (alternate HARD) and Free!

  7. #7
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    Nice first post ever.....SPAM and a thread resurrection!.

  8. #8
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    Hi RipRoar! I was wondering when my post might be called SPAM. You see here is the thing: what makes it OK for posters to "tear our seats a new one" but it is not OK for us to respond? Common sense and the justice system is built (or is supposed to be) on the concept that people have the right to defend themselves.

    So then is it OK for people and companies not to defend themselves online?

  9. #9
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    The seat looks not only useless but dangerous for mountain biking. You may want to work on your sales pitch, you sound like the Sham-wow guy.

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  10. #10
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    They probably say nothing back because that would be completely creepy to hear from some random stranger. No one was knocking your saddle, but a hornless saddle on a mountain bike does have some disadvantages that were stated above. I can do the same things after a 50 mile ride on my WTB saddle. Quit being so defensive.. not to mention this thread is 2 years old.

  11. #11
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    It is absolutely true that for highly technical riding our seat is not the choice because in being wide it is difficult to get behind. Other than that it works very well in every riding category. Sorry to sound like the Sham-wow guy - just trying to correct some false information.

  12. #12
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    The amount of "grief" we have taken from riders who have never seen our seat let alone ridden one, has been pretty amazing over the years. People research online and find old postings and do not necessary care that they are 2 years old. So I do not see anything wrong in responding so that they can get a more "objective" picture. As far as being defensive goes, if you were in my position trying to run a company and help riders escape the damage they are inflicting on themselves you would think it important to correct information that is patently false and in many cases downright abusive. Forgive me for being blunt but it is easy for riders who have not yet seen symptoms of urological and neurological damage to say "Who cares."

    Jeff

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Dixon View Post
    It is absolutely true that for highly technical riding our seat is not the choice because in being wide it is difficult to get behind. Other than that it works very well in every riding category.

    I'm not saying there is no room for improvement and innovation in bicycle saddles and I realize that some people have developed medical problems riding on traditional saddles, however, that design is both useless and dangerous for off road riding situations. Yes, I have ridden on one and what I discovered is that A) The saddle horn is very helpful for balance and control of the bicycle and B) on a mountain bike ride you need to be able to move all over the saddle, back, forward, and sometimes even sideways to maintain control.

  14. #14
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    I am 63 years old and I still ride a hardtail mountain bike aggressively in the fairly rocky and rooted North East. I have none of the symptoms you speak of and would not dream of using one of your "seats" or others like it. They may work on beach cruisers on the boardwalk with low saddles and the riders knees up around his ears.

    You ask, "What are the glutes for?" Well lets use some of your " plain old common sense". On a performance bicycle like a mountain bike they certainly are not used for sitting on. The gluteus are muscles that are important in getting maximum power to the pedals. if you are sitting on them they can not be working efficiently. Downhill racers sit low on their bikes to lower their center of gravity but they mostly use gravity for forward motion. All other performance riders have their seats extended to the point of near full leg extension. This allows efficient, powerful pedaling. In this position the pelvis is rotated forward and the rider is not sitting on the "sharp" sit bones but rather on the flatter forward edges of the pelvis. This frees the muscles to move but also spreads the pressure over a longer area. Most people that complain about discomfort have poorly adjusted saddles or the wrong width. Most better saddle manufacturers made different widths.
    The trouble with having an open mind is that people will insist on trying to put things in it.

  15. #15
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    Hi J.B. Weld! I recognize the brand name - great stuff!

    Last week I rode through the back trails of The Hillsborough White Rocks Recreation Center in Hillsborough NB. My friend and I ride with SWs. The trail is about 1/2 the size of a dirt road and was very muddy with huge "water bogs." There was a lot of twisting and turning involved and the dry portions were only dry because they were very steep ascents and descents. We had no problems. I fully admit that in technical riding a rider may be better served on a horned saddle. My beef is with folks who say that if you do not have a horn you either cannot steer or you cannot steer well enough so that hornless seats are dangerous. That type of statement as an overarching generalization and it is false! We have a return rate of 4% and no one has ever returned saying they were doing so because they could not steer. We have never received any such report. We sell to pretty much every category out there with technical trail riding being a very small percentage. I am not sure what saddle you rode that was hornless but what I can tell you is that if there was a safety issue we would have heard of it by now and would have been sued out of existence. Perhaps when cornering at 50 mph you might feel you need a horned saddle. Some of that may be psychological as you definitely feel more a "part of the bike" with something "wedged up" into you. Some of the issue may be the fact that 95% of our returns are such that it is obvious that the riders did not really give the SW a "good college try." However, most people who ride are not cornering at 50MPH and most people on a mountain bike do not ride highly technical terrain. So if you want a horned saddle for highly technical riding that is probably a good idea but why hurt yourself when riding everything else?

    Jeff

  16. #16
    I wonder why?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Dixon View Post
    The amount of "grief" we have taken from riders who have never seen our seat let alone ridden one, has been pretty amazing over the years. People research online and find old postings and do not necessary care that they are 2 years old. So I do not see anything wrong in responding so that they can get a more "objective" picture. As far as being defensive goes, if you were in my position trying to run a company and help riders escape the damage they are inflicting on themselves you would think it important to correct information that is patently false and in many cases downright abusive. Forgive me for being blunt but it is easy for riders who have not yet seen symptoms of urological and neurological damage to say "Who cares."

    Jeff

    Unfortunately Jeff, your picture is far from objective, it is biased, self-serving, and demonstrates little or no understanding of riding mechanics.

    To maintain safe control of a bike in both road and mountain biking situations the rider must be able to get behind the seat (quickly and efficiently) especially when going downhill. This is of critical importance when the terrain or road get's rougher or the rider encounters obstacles (often unexpectedly). Failure to get behind the seat in these instances can easily result in the rider going over the bars, or losing control.

    Therefore, for both road and mountain biking, your invention creates a significantly more dangerous situation than what you are trying to prevent. I do not need to try your saddle to determine this, it is an obvious fact. Which is probably why you've gotten flack from riders. The grief you have experienced has been self created. You are trying to promote something that any experienced rider can see is patently dangerous.

    Do you provide an appropriate usage warning to the purchasers of your saddle? You discredit yourself and do a dis-service to your company by touting hyperbole without full disclosure, as you have done here.

    Your saddles may be of some use on stationary bikes or beach cruisers. You would be better served focusing on that market.

    i1dry?
    ...some drink from the fountain of knowledge..some only gargle...!!

  17. #17
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    Thank you Ronnie.

    Not everyone who rides will develop serious urological and neurological problems. But then again not everyone who smokes gets cancer.

    Bicycle seats do cause damage and as we age a lot of people respond to the "lessening of their sexual performance" by saying things like "Well I guess I am not 18 anymore." This is unfortunate because they do not understand that some damage has been done and an appreciable portion of their loss of virility can be attributed - at least in riders - to the damage single platform seats cause.

    You ride aggressively off road so you are out of the saddle a lot are you not? if so then you do yourself less damage than someone who is on their saddle a lot.

    As far as beach cruisers etc. We sell to bike messengers, fitness clubs, professional sports teams, every category there is. Every triathlete who has bought our seat and later called said the exact same thing - beyond their praise for the relief they experienced: The SW put them onto their aero bars in a more "natural" way. So I am sorry but our seats work very well in every situation other than "trick riding" and very technical off road riding.

    The performance loss through numbing, tingling and the anxiety this creates - as well as the energy drain while the body tries to deal with the damage - is more than offset by the gain in riding without these issues. That includes whatever loss MIGHT be attributed to pressure on the glutes - and this issue of riding while sitting on the glutes has never been studied so let's admit there isn't any data by which to draw conclusions.

    Jeff

  18. #18
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    Thank you i1dry! We have recently redone our site and I would need to check if the some of the old info has been "carried over" as there have been many changes, but on the old sites we definitely stated that our seat would not be appropriate for technical off road riding. Also, if you have read the other posts you will know that I am not hiding anything from anyone.

    As far as road riders go - and specifically those in "classic" road bike configurations - these riders are 40% of our business and once again - for the record - no reports of crashes or any other safety issues.

    I need to make the following statement and I want it to be understood that I direct it at NO ONE in particular. There have been so many postings of blatantly false and deceitful information on our product that even the most unparonoid person out there would think that perhaps there is an agenda to kill my company. Indeed, all of this current back and forth is risky as we open ourselves up to false reports of crashes being reported. And once again for the record we do know of at least one instance where this occurred.

    In terms of being objective and allowing for a "platform" in which "fair play" is to be sought and appreciated, your comment "Unfortunately Jeff, your picture is ... is biased, self-serving.." is nothing but a string of insults. It is neither objective or can in any way be seen as being in the category of "fair play."

    In addition I would add that anyone who has seen our seat "in the flesh" and/or on our site knows it is wide and riders who ride technical trails already know the seat is not the best choice for technical off road riding. In other words someone who rides in particular contexts already has a base of knowledge that is tantamount to full disclosure from us. So your point suggesting we are being in some way dishonest or "keeping something back" is moot.

    The truth is that the only people who suggest our seat is dangerous have never ridden one. And as far as being "dangerous" in some contexts - you buy the correct product for the job. If you buy a seat that is not designed for off technical off road riding the issue is not that the seat is dangerous, the issue is you bought the wrong product for the job.

    Jeff

  19. #19
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    Jeff, you must go by the theory that "Any press is good press" because I kind of doubt you'll get a lot of love here amongst folks who mostly ride off road (trails). I'll make another contribution for you.

    What are these "non-technical" off road riding situations you speak of? Paved bike paths? Groomed snowmobile trails? I'm sure they exist but any singletrack I've ever ridden involved at least some level of handling skills and bike control.

    I admit that I'm not sure whether I've used your particular product or not but I have on numerous occasions test ridden bikes with similar ones like the Easy Seat and the loss of control and connection you have with the bike is staggering. I would not consider using one on a road bike for that reason alone, and I would not use one on a trail on a dare.

    It puts a ton more pressure on your hands and arms (nerve damage?). The only performance application I could see it possibly working might be triathletes using aero bars where all the weight is on your forearms.

  20. #20
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    hello Again J.B. Weld. A lot of good questions here. A lot of riders have more than one bike. I am presuming that riders who respond to these forums are more than likely to be in that category so if that is the case why hurt yourself when riding in a context that is not technical off road riding? Also this whole "adventure" started with one posting and has definitely expanded.

    I am speaking most specifically of situations where "getting behind the bike" is required. I have ridden a lot of trails that did not require that movement but had roots and ruts and rocks - no problem.

    "Staggering" is definitely a big word. All I can do is once again state for the record that we have sold almost 17,000 seats now with no reports of loss of control amounting to a problem - staggering or otherwise. I ride in Greater Moncton and probably 50% of the time I am weaving in and out of multi-lane traffic. This riding involves moving from paved roads, to groomed trails, through small alleys, down parking garages (love that) etc. I do signal as much as the situation allows and have been riding in this context with a SW for 14 years. Still here.

    It is true that given your bike geometry and the physiological make-up of a rider that additional forward pressure can be an issue. For me it was so I installed a graphite three inch riser handlebar on my bike. The bike still looks "sexy" - if we can say that. Getting higher at the front made my breathing easier and my night time rest better (less pressure on the spine at the neck when sitting more upright). I suspect that the movement of ones diaphragm is better when not 'crunched over" but cannot verify that.

    In any case, I found that my performance on the bike and was improved and my "sleep issues" greatly diminished by sitting a bit more upright. Even if those things had not happened, a change in handlebar was a small price to pay for ending the urological and neurological trauma.

    Jeff

  21. #21
    I wonder why?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Dixon View Post
    Thank you i1dry! We have recently redone our site and I would need to check if the some of the old info has been "carried over" as there have been many changes, but on the old sites we definitely stated that our seat would not be appropriate for technical off road riding. Also, if you have read the other posts you will know that I am not hiding anything from anyone.

    As far as road riders go - and specifically those in "classic" road bike configurations - these riders are 40% of our business and once again - for the record - no reports of crashes or any other safety issues.

    I need to make the following statement and I want it to be understood that I direct it at NO ONE in particular. There have been so many postings of blatantly false and deceitful information on our product that even the most unparonoid person out there would think that perhaps there is an agenda to kill my company. Indeed, all of this current back and forth is risky as we open ourselves up to false reports of crashes being reported. And once again for the record we do know of at least one instance where this occurred.

    In terms of being objective and allowing for a "platform" in which "fair play" is to be sought and appreciated, your comment "Unfortunately Jeff, your picture is ... is biased, self-serving.." is nothing but a string of insults. It is neither objective or can in any way be seen as being in the category of "fair play."

    In addition I would add that anyone who has seen our seat "in the flesh" and/or on our site knows it is wide and riders who ride technical trails already know the seat is not the best choice for technical off road riding. In other words someone who rides in particular contexts already has a base of knowledge that is tantamount to full disclosure from us. So your point suggesting we are being in some way dishonest or "keeping something back" is moot.

    The truth is that the only people who suggest our seat is dangerous have never ridden one. And as far as being "dangerous" in some contexts - you buy the correct product for the job. If you buy a seat that is not designed for off technical off road riding the issue is not that the seat is dangerous, the issue is you bought the wrong product for the job.

    Jeff
    Jeff, nice attempt at back peddling (pun intended)!

    Firstly, before my initial post I went to your website and looked at a few youtube videos that you produced. Strangely, I could not find one instance of disclosure for appropriate use!. Weird eh, that you own/run the company and you don't know what you are saying in the marketplace given your statement that, "I would need to check if the some of the old info has been "carried over" as there have been many changes, but on the old sites we definitely stated that our seat would not be appropriate for technical off road riding."

    Secondly and strangely too, in your first post to this thread you failed to even find out what type of riding the OP did, prior to touting the benefits of your saddle (you also didn't disclose any guidelines for appropriate use).

    Thirdly, you state in your 7th post, "It is absolutely true that for highly technical riding our seat is not the choice because in being wide it is difficult to get behind." in response to smithcreek's and meyer378's comments re your saddles perceived disadvantages/dangers.

    Fourthly, this is a mountain biking forum and mountain biking is not riding along a dirt road with puddles. Do you even understand what technical riding is? I think not!

    Aside from the technical skills required to mountain bike, let's say I was road riding in the country and using one of your saddles. It's a beautiful day and I'm cruising down a winding hill with blind curves and all of a sudden I come upon debris on the road such as a tree limb or rockfall, or a car forces me off the road onto a broken shoulder, etc. Holly sh!t, I can't get behind the saddle as required to safely maintain control of the bike and I go over the bars. These and similar technical situations happen all the time.

    Your last two paragraphs speak volumes about your ignorance (re what is technical riding) and/or your disregard for your potential customers. On this site alone there are many new riders who are just learning the skills required to safely navigate a wide variety of technical situations. To suggest that they should be "Buyer Beware" because they do not know the difference in the type of equipment that they require is astounding.

    Keep up the good work Jeff and you'll only have yourself to blame for "killing my company".

    i1dry?
    ...some drink from the fountain of knowledge..some only gargle...!!

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Dixon View Post
    hello Again J.B. Weld. A lot of good questions here. A lot of riders have more than one bike. I am presuming that riders who respond to these forums are more than likely to be in that category so if that is the case why hurt yourself when riding in a context that is not technical off road riding? Also this whole "adventure" started with one posting and has definitely expanded.

    I am speaking most specifically of situations where "getting behind the bike" is required. I have ridden a lot of trails that did not require that movement but had roots and ruts and rocks - no problem.

    "Staggering" is definitely a big word. All I can do is once again state for the record that we have sold almost 17,000 seats now with no reports of loss of control amounting to a problem - staggering or otherwise. I ride in Greater Moncton and probably 50% of the time I am weaving in and out of multi-lane traffic. This riding involves moving from paved roads, to groomed trails, through small alleys, down parking garages (love that) etc. I do signal as much as the situation allows and have been riding in this context with a SW for 14 years. Still here.

    It is true that given your bike geometry and the physiological make-up of a rider that additional forward pressure can be an issue. For me it was so I installed a graphite three inch riser handlebar on my bike. The bike still looks "sexy" - if we can say that. Getting higher at the front made my breathing easier and my night time rest better (less pressure on the spine at the neck when sitting more upright). I suspect that the movement of ones diaphragm is better when not 'crunched over" but cannot verify that.

    In any case, I found that my performance on the bike and was improved and my "sleep issues" greatly diminished by sitting a bit more upright. Even if those things had not happened, a change in handlebar was a small price to pay for ending the urological and neurological trauma.

    Jeff
    You are trying to sell to the wrong crowd.

    The type of saddle you are pushing has been around for 100+ years and many companies have come and gone trying to sell it. One of the many "great new ideas" that will "revolutionize" the bicycle that appear every 10 years or so. They fail for a simple reason. The concept does not work for the vast majority of cyclists.

    Of those 17,000 units you have sold I would like to know how many are on bikes that have not been touched for a year or more, how many were removed and thrown in the corner of the garage, how many were tossed in the trash can? A low return rate does not equal a high satisfaction rate.

    The people I know with multiple bikes (almost everyone I know) all use basically the SAME saddle on every bike for comfort reasons. Changing the saddle causes issues.

    For the cycling enthusiast, and especially mtbers, this is a product that creates more problems than it solves. Not functional. I would rather not have a seat at all.

    If you ride around town and use a sit-up-and-beg riding position, it is not horrible--at best.
    mtbtires.com
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  23. #23
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    Hi again JB. Forgot something that might be relevant to this thread. The Easy Seat oscillates - its pads move up and down with the corresponding leg. Riders who called me and bought our seat after owing the easy Seat all made the same two comments: Could not keep a straight line on the road and never felt secure on the bike. It is important to note that our two pads do not move so if you had a significant loss of control perhaps it was due to the oscillation which is NOT a feature on the Spongy Wonder.

    Thanks Again,

    Jeff

    PS. To be fair to Easy Seat - they have sold a ton of seats so that feature must be working for more than a few riders.

  24. #24
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    We are in the midst of changing the site - NOT at the end. Secondly, I think I have already demonstrated my honesty and the obvious truth demonstrated in the statement made earlier:

    "In addition I would add that anyone who has seen our seat "in the flesh" and/or on our site knows it is wide and riders who ride technical trails already know the seat is not the best choice for technical off road riding. In other words someone who rides in particular contexts already has a base of knowledge that is tantamount to full disclosure from us. So your point suggesting we are being in some way dishonest or "keeping something back" is moot."

    should make it clear we are not hiding anything. Anyone who goes to the site may read that we have "small" and "large" pads and explicit in that is the idea that the seat is wide. If wide, it is obvious that technical off road riders will probably not want it for that purpose and my statements here, and my ability to be contacted by email and toll free phone should demonstrate that we are not trying to deceive anyone.

    But just for the record I will send my webmaster a note for him to install. here is the note I have just emailed to him: "The large pads are such that they may be too wide for you if your riding is in a technical off road situation in which you sometimes need to "get behind" your seat." Is this enough?

    I do not remember using the word "puddle." I think I said "bog." But I will elaborate: 1 foot depth muddy water covering the entire width of the road, washed out sections of ascent and descent, rocks, roots, limestone covered descents portions of which were covered with vegetation, sections of trail "slick" with mud, downed trees. Is that enough explanation?

    Once again let me repeat myself: We have sold almost 17,000 seats with no reports of folks being able to steer their bikes. Most of the readers out there will agree that it makes sense to suggest that since 1999 and with over 16,000 seats out there that a few of them have experienced some of the situations you bring up. Yet no reports.

    Most would also agree that with almost 17,000 seats sold it is probably the case that there is a large variation in experience, equipment and riding styles out there in conjunction with the SW. A huge percentage of riders who call me tell me they have been through 6, 12, 30 seats. Think about it. This being the case these riders probably have a few miles under their belts.

    I am not hiding anything here as everyone can see. How many times do I need to state that our seat is probably not the best choice for technical off road riding.

    But let me repeat myself again: 40% of our seats go to riders riding "classic" road bike configurations. No accidents reported. No loss of control reported. No lawsuits. 14 years in. How much of a "test case" will satisfy you?

    Jeff

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    Dear Shiggy,

    Thank you for this. The reason they fail when they do might have something to do with riders who have never ridden one condemning them. Is this possible? It might be seeing as teh vast, vast majority of the writers of these posts have never ridden a dual platform seat yet condemn them online. I am sorry to be so blunt but that is really not an objective approach.

    It is true that a return rate of 4% is not strictly accurate. But extrapolating from it one still ends up with a very high percentage of seats out there. 90% of the seats we get back have either not been used or barely so. So knowing that I could also say that if they had given it some time the rate would be dropped again. Look, if you have had a dog for 20 years and have never seen a cat but then get one would you expect to know everything about it and its benefits within three days?

    Not functional? perhaps you might look at our testimonial page. And you might pay attention to the ones by people who have been riding it for years. Just a thought.

    Jeff

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    I don't believe Mr. Dixon is actually interested in any opinion that does not support his position. It's like trying to talk to a parrot. Words come out, but there is no actual communication.
    Use it, use it, use it while you still have it.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Dixon View Post
    ...for the record...

    Once again let me repeat myself...

    But let me repeat myself again...
    no, we heard you the first time...

    and the second time...

    and the third time...

    selling your saddles to moms and dads that have no clue what they are doing is much different than trying to sling those pieces of junk to us...


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    Insults are a form of communication

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    If I was heard the 1st or 2nd or 3rd time then why do people keep pounding away at the same point?

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    Holy thread gone wild.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gasp4Air View Post
    I don't believe Mr. Dixon is actually interested in any opinion that does not support his position. It's like trying to talk to a parrot. Words come out, but there is no actual communication.
    No doubt....we call that "just waiting to talk" zero comprehension of what you are communicating back


    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Dixon View Post
    Hi RipRoar! I was wondering when my post might be called SPAM. You see here is the thing: what makes it OK for posters to "tear our seats a new one" but it is not OK for us to respond? Common sense and the justice system is built (or is supposed to be) on the concept that people have the right to defend themselves.

    So then is it OK for people and companies not to defend themselves online?
    Ok, you have a point, but holy smokes batman...you lost me at "My name is Jeff Dixon and I am the inventor of the Spongy Wonder Bike Seat."

  31. #31
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    Spiderflex vs SpongyWonder Saddles?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Dixon View Post
    Dear Shiggy,

    Thank you for this. The reason they fail when they do might have something to do with riders who have never ridden one condemning them. Is this possible? It might be seeing as teh vast, vast majority of the writers of these posts have never ridden a dual platform seat yet condemn them online. I am sorry to be so blunt but that is really not an objective approach.

    It is true that a return rate of 4% is not strictly accurate. But extrapolating from it one still ends up with a very high percentage of seats out there. 90% of the seats we get back have either not been used or barely so. So knowing that I could also say that if they had given it some time the rate would be dropped again. Look, if you have had a dog for 20 years and have never seen a cat but then get one would you expect to know everything about it and its benefits within three days?

    Not functional? perhaps you might look at our testimonial page. And you might pay attention to the ones by people who have been riding it for years. Just a thought.

    Jeff
    I have been playing nice. You do not want to see my bluntness.

    No saddle is objective. It is all subjective. Even then, not liking one does not mean it is not an objective opinion. Unlike you, I have no vested interest in any saddle. By definition, you can not have an objective view on saddles.
    I have ridden on similar seats, just to see how they feel. Bottom line: junk, not usable for trail riding and only passable at best on the road.

    There is not one testimonial regarding trail riding on your site.

    I especially like the couple of people with damaged tailbones. If you are sitting on the bike properly in the first place, there is no pressure on the tailbone. Maybe in a sit-up-and-beg position with an overly padded and soft way too wide seat. And that is not a trail rider or any other performance cyclist.

    Despite the number you have sold, and the much larger number of similar seats sold, I have yet to see any--none, zip, ZERO, nada--on a trail bike in 30 years. Only seen a few on any bike. Seen many in the junk pile.

    You have had your say. Now it is time for you to stop repeating yourself and just face it, this is a mountain bike site and not your market, and never will be. You will have no more success here than if you were selling gas engine kits so we do not need to pedal.
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  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Dixon View Post
    Insults are a form of communication
    Well, that was a real response. But parroting the same information to any post that you don't like is not. In a real conversation, you would acknowledge what people here are telling you and take their opinions seriously, not just counter with the same sales pitch over and over. Infomercials won't do well here, believe me.
    Use it, use it, use it while you still have it.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Dixon View Post
    If I was heard the 1st or 2nd or 3rd time then why do people keep pounding away at the same point?
    Because it appears that you don't understand what technical riding is (road or mountain biking) and you continue to repeat that your product is good for every type of riding other than "extreme technical riding". Just because you repeat the same thing over and over doesn't make it true. You simply come across as deluded.

    And as Westcoasthucker so appropriately stated, "selling your saddles to moms and dads that have no clue what they are doing is much different than... selling them to us."

    From a mountain biking perspective your saddle design creates an unsafe environment for the rider!!! And in my opinion it also creates an unsafe environment for road riding, as I noted in my previous post (which you failed to address).

    Don't you get it that the more you've posted the less credible you have become. You started poorly and have gone downhill from there.

    And as Shiggy has stated, "mountain biking is not your market and will never will be."

    i1dry?
    ...some drink from the fountain of knowledge..some only gargle...!!

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    I believe I said our seats are not the best choice for very technical trail riding. That sounds objective.

    I am repeating myself because the same comments that have been said about our product (cannot steer) keep coming up.

    We only post the testimonials we are given permission to publish. We do not modify them. Maybe some are from trail riders - maybe some are not. That is not the point. The point is that a general condemnation of a product by those who have never ridden it is not objective. Do not ride our seat on trails. Fine. Do not ride it in any other context either. Fine. But at least be honest enough to say that you are condemning it without ever having ridden it.

    I might also add that it is a big world out there and our seats are spread across the world. Given there are only 17,000 out there and that you need to be in the right place at the right time it is really not surprising that you have seen few on a bike. And your comment about 30 years is moot seeing as we have only been around for 14.

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    If you have actually examined the posts you will see that I have very pointedly responded to questions about the Easy Seat, what kind of terrain I was riding in Hillsborough, forward pressure, the issue of steering etc. I have admitted that horned seats are not for every situation and there are real issues such as forward pressure that need to be dealt with. Who is really engaged here and who is really repeating themselves with the same old objections made by riders with no frame of reference.

    Anyone who is reading these posts and looking for bike saddle answer to the physical trauma they are going through will be able to see who is "real" in this conversation.

    Jeff

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    You seat would be terrible for any kind of riding where the butt isn't firmly and steadily attached to the seat. That means its a poor choice for even the least technical riding, which means any sort of mountain biking at all - not just the "most technical".

    A good salesman listens and is diplomatic. A bad salesman doesn't listen well and turns differences of opinion into an argument. (And doesn't sell many SpongyWonders).

    I know you won't give up. You just can't help yourself.
    Use it, use it, use it while you still have it.

  37. #37
    AZ
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    That saddle come in Ti and Carbon fiber?

  38. #38
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    Spiderflex vs SpongyWonder Saddles?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Dixon View Post
    I believe I said our seats are not the best choice for very technical trail riding. That sounds objective.

    I am repeating myself because the same comments that have been said about our product (cannot steer) keep coming up.

    We only post the testimonials we are given permission to publish. We do not modify them. Maybe some are from trail riders - maybe some are not. That is not the point. The point is that a general condemnation of a product by those who have never ridden it is not objective. Do not ride our seat on trails. Fine. Do not ride it in any other context either. Fine. But at least be honest enough to say that you are condemning it without ever having ridden it.

    I might also add that it is a big world out there and our seats are spread across the world. Given there are only 17,000 out there and that you need to be in the right place at the right time it is really not surprising that you have seen few on a bike. And your comment about 30 years is moot seeing as we have only been around for 14.
    Yet you keep pushing.

    You have been much more repetitive in your defensiveness than anyone here.

    I do not need to ride your version of a bad saddle idea to not recommend it, any more than I need to ride the newest 25mm road tire to know it does not work well on a sand dune. This basic seat concept is far older than your company, so yes, my 30 years of experience is very relevant.

    Just stop digging. Now.
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  39. #39
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    I ride all types of terrain except the most technical. I started off that way when I bought my first mountain bike but simply got tired of looking towards the ground all day.

    Good salesmen do listen and as you might notice I have repeatedly admitted that hornless bike seats are not for everyone and do create some issues (forward pressure) for some riders.

    I ride a 2000 Trek 8000 with a front derailleur upgraded from LX to XT; rear cluster upgraded from LX to XTR; Icon post upgraded to Rock Shox, clipless pedals swapped out for Suntour XCD6000 (WOW they are beautiful!), flat Icon graphite bar to 3 inch riser Icon risers, and teh seat of course changed to our MK9A. A ride I was on last week involved huge "water bogs", steep washed out ascents and descents, rocks, slick mud, downed trees across the road etc. Most of the time I ride around Greater Moncton in multi-lane traffic, groomed trails, through alleys, down steps, over and through fields, etc.

    Just for the record.

    Jeff

  40. #40
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    Thanks for your question. Ti will not take the bends we put into the seat frame. The elongation of Ti is simply not enough. We contacted 4 carbon fiber manufacturers in the US of A and 1 in Taiwan and they all said the same thing: "3 times more money and we cannot even come close to the strength you have achieved." Yes it is on the heavy side but the freedom to ride without damage and the corresponding negative sensations frees ones mind for the job at hand and makes you stronger on the bike.

    I would add that it is true many of our riders need to get "higher up front" and while that means a lessening of your aerodynamic position I have found my breathing became much easier and once again the benefits far outweighed the "losses."

    Jeff

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Dixon View Post
    ...freedom to ride without damage and the corresponding negative sensations...
    you should probably just remove the seat altogether and replace that stick, with your newly exposed seatpost...


  42. #42
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    The fact there are patents in the USPTO dating back to the 1890s for seats aimed at relieving pressure should tell us all something. The existence of Cobbs, Specialized Body Geometry, Koobi, Adamo, Terry Liberators etc. are an acknowledgement that a problem does exist. Then there are all the studies that have been done and the anecdotal histories I hear every week from riders who have tons of years in the saddle, and have been through all types of "fit sessions" and saddles. Most come saying "if yours does not work I will need to give up riding." You can see many of these stories on our testimonial page. I am being called all sorts of nasty things as usual. This is not new and neither is the damage that conventional and modified conventional seats cause.

    The Spongy Wonder has helped thousands of people keep their "cycling careers" alive.

    It is true our seat is NOT for everyone. But it is also true that it is false to say it is only for a small number of people who have no knowledge and experience of cycling. And that is exactly what was said in the terribly insulting and demeaning comment about "moms and dads."

    I am 51 years old and have been riding since I could get on a bike at 3 or 4 or whatever it was. I have owned bikes by Nishiki, Schwinn, Giant, Trek, Bianchi, etc. I have ridden pretty much every type of terrain there is and went through dozens of saddles like many of our customers. Those of you who suggest that horned seats are only for the the "lowest form of cycling life" are the ones who are speaking arrogantly and anyone who wants to find a real solution and bothers to read these posts will have no problem coming to that conclusion. Those of you who have been insulting and angry and have spoken with no frame of reference should be embarassed if anyone needs to be. It truly bothers me to have to say that.

    Jeff Dixon
    The Very Happy and Proud Guy Who Has Put So Many Riders Back on Their Bikes

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    Cute. I appreciate all the help you are providing in making me look objective and thus a help to all those riders looking and praying for a solution to the trauma they are going through.

    Thanks!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Dixon View Post
    Cute. I appreciate all the help you are providing in making me look objective and thus a help to all those riders looking and praying for a solution to the trauma they are going through.

    Thanks!!!
    You do not understand the meaning of objective. You are not objective, and neither am I.

    I am sorry you feel insulted. You are not going to last long on the forums. This thread has been very mild.
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  45. #45
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    I'll try to be helpful....

    Jeff, further to the type of riding that you describe are you saying that you don't have to move behind your seat???? If that is so, with all due respect, your technical skill set is severely limited. If you do move behind your seat, you would know what the posters to this thread are stating. Or perhaps you have developed some secret riding style and skill set that is beyond our comprehension. Quite frankly you have lost all credibility.

    You have made the following statements in your posts:

    • "It is absolutely true that for highly technical riding our seat is not the choice because in being wide it is difficult to get behind. Other than that it works very well in every riding category."

    • "…on the old sites we definitely stated that our seat would not be appropriate for technical off road riding"

    • "…riders who ride technical trails already know the seat is not the best choice for technical off road riding."

    • "If you buy a seat that is not designed for off technical off road riding the issue is not that the seat is dangerous, the issue is you bought the wrong product for the job."

    • "The large pads are such that they may be too wide for you if your riding is in a technical off road situation in which you sometimes need to "get behind" your seat."

    Therefore, you already know that your saddles is not suitable in situations where the rider needs to get behind the seat.

    What you seem to fail to understand is when getting behind the seat is necessary. You seem to want to cling to what you think technical off road riding is. From your posts in this thread it is clear that you don't know what you are talking about.

    Getting behind the seat is a technical skill employed to move the body's center of gravity back over the rear wheel and to lighten the load on the front wheel so as to be able to maintain control principally of the front wheel and to prevent the rider from sticking their front wheel and going over the bars. It is of equal importance for the rider to be able to move forward again as well, to position their center of gravity as may be required.

    While there are fewer instances when this skill may be required while road riding, it is still a required skill for most cycling enthusiasts. And there are many many instances when this skill is required during mountain biking and not just on what mountain biker's would deem technical trails. This skill is regularly used when riding simple XC trails.

    By your own words, as noted above, you have told us that your wide seat is difficult to get behind and we know that this creates a dangerous situation when riding. If your wide seat is difficult to get behind, (as you say and as we can see) we also know, by experience, that it will difficult to move back forward on or position ourself properly on. The experienced riders, who have responded in this thread, know how important this movement about the saddle skill is, and when and how often it is employed. As a result, we don't have to try your saddle to know that it creates a dangerous situation.

    From a person who has over 40 years of riding experience, both on road and off road, I'd suggest that you provide the following disclaimer to those that you are communicating to. If you did you certainly wouldn't be getting the backlash that you have experienced in this thread.

    WARNING: Bicycle riders, whether riding on the road or off road, may encounter situations where they must move behind or about the seat to maintain safe control. Spongy Wonder Bike Seats are wide and may limit a rider’s ability to get behind and move around the seat. This may prevent the rider from maintaining safe control of the bike and, therefore, result in serious injury or death.

    Spongy Wonder Bike Seats are most suitable for use when riding on flat even terrain or on stationary cycles.


    i1dry?
    ...some drink from the fountain of knowledge..some only gargle...!!

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by i1dry View Post
    From a person who has over 40 years of riding experience, both on road and off road, I'd suggest that you provide the following disclaimer to those that you are communicating to. If you did you certainly wouldn't be getting the backlash that you have experienced in this thread.

    WARNING: Bicycle riders, whether riding on the road or off road, may encounter situations where they must move behind or about the seat to maintain safe control. Spongy Wonder Bike Seats are wide and may limit a rider’s ability to get behind and move around the seat. This may prevent the rider from maintaining safe control of the bike and, therefore, result in serious injury or death.

    Spongy Wonder Bike Seats are most suitable for use when riding on flat even terrain or on stationary cycles.


    i1dry?
    ...or brake hard (on or off road), take corners at speed (especially on rough surfaces)...
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    We have riders on all sorts of terrain as I pointed out. 14 years no accidents reported. So I will stick with that and not discourage people from ending damage to their health. I would also repeat myself (ooh no not again) when I say that with just under 17,000 saddles sold I am fairly sure some of our riders have had an occasion where they needed to come to quick stops and swerve and/or "bob and weave." I know I have had those situations many times and once again: Still here!

    repeating myself again: If what you say is true we would have had reports of accidents and/or been sued out of existence. As the saying goes: "The proof is in the pudding." Therefore the conclusion must be that this is from someone who is speaking conceptually without any hands on experience (or should I say "bums on experience). Once again repeating myself: "How big of a test case do you need?"

  48. #48
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    You are right. We are are differing levels of objectivity. I have 14 years of proof and over 16,000 saddles out there. besides all the testimonials, Doctors reports, scientific studies, etc. You have what exactly other than your speculations based on....?

  49. #49
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    Let's make sure we are referring to the same thing. Thank you for asking for clarification. This is a good step I believe. When I think of "getting behind the seat" I am referring to technical off road riding and specifically of those situations when a rider is going into a steep gully and lowers their center of gravity AND takes pressure off the front wheel by moving themselves so far back as to now have the seat in a position close to or at the abdomen.

    If we are simply talking about being able to move oneself quite far back so that one has the majority of ones weight behind the seat then yes you can do that with a Spongy Wonder. But in the first instance I mentioned whereby one must move severely back - it is extremely difficult due to the width of the seat.

    Are we possibly on the same page now?

  50. #50
    AZ
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    How many events have been won on this saddle? How many podiums? How many endurance racers are on one? I notice that you cite many Drs. and studies that address saddle issues (nothing ground breaking there by the way), how many studies have been done using your saddle as the subject for corrective action and by whom were the studies conducted. Reliable citations only please.

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