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  1. #1
    tl1
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    The slickest electric bike I've seen

    ...so far. Got around to fully reading the mtbr.com review of this beast. and I think the Ohm XS-750 is pretty much how I'd build an electric commuter or around town electric bike, except for the 57.5 lbs. and $3799 price tag parts maybe. It uses the proven Bion-X 350 watt drive system, the quick release Bion-X battery is located in the middle of the bike to balance the weight out some, it has fast charging, XT drivetrain, standard fenders, decent rack, Schwalbe Marathon tires, a Magura Menja fork, Magura Louise brakes, B & M lights, Mavic 317s and so on. The 57.5 lbs. and $3799 price are still pretty big obstacles to actually purchasing one though. I wouldn't want to pedal that too far when it's out of juice. Given the level of components and the Bion-X system it's probably not that high of a price for those that can afford it.

    http://ohmcycles.com/wp-content/them...0SpecSheet.pdf

    Last edited by tl1; 05-19-2011 at 05:22 PM.

  2. #2
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    The Bion X system on the Ohm is ok but I like the new Bosch BB drive system better because you gain access to the bikes gearing which helps alot in the under 500w class. This example is around 45 lbs.
    The slickest electric bike I've seen-haibike-xduro-ds-karl-acker.jpg
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  3. #3
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    Those may be even slicker

    Quote Originally Posted by MABman
    The Bion X system on the Ohm is ok but I like the new Bosch BB drive system better because you gain access to the bikes gearing which helps alot in the under 500w class. This example is around 45 lbs.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Significantly lighter that's for sure and having both the drive unit and battery centered on the bike has got to be a good thing. I hadn't seen the Bosch system before, thanks.


    http://www.bosch-ebike.de/en/ebike/homepage.html

    http://www.rotwild.de/index.php/en/bikes/tour/rt1h
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails The slickest electric bike I've seen-rotwildbosch.jpg  


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    Although Cannondale was mentioned last year of being in on the development of the Bosch drive system it doesn't look like they have anything out yet other than some presence at Eurobike last fall. I am hoping that Bosch will break the 250w/25 kmh EU barrier with at least a 600w/20mph system for sale here in the states.

    I personally have no problem with the 20 mph law as long as I can get there from one edge of the street to the other For inner city riding it is all about the launch and hill bursts and with a BB system there is not as much drag as a hub motor so pedaling efficiency is better for speeds above 20.

    Hadn't seen that Rotwild 29"er either. Nice. Now lets see a Bosch drive on a cargo bike.
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  5. #5
    tl1
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    Speaking of Cannondale

    Quote Originally Posted by MABman
    Although Cannondale was mentioned last year of being in on the development of the Bosch drive system it doesn't look like they have anything out yet other than some presence at Eurobike last fall. I am hoping that Bosch will break the 250w/25 kmh EU barrier with at least a 600w/20mph system for sale here in the states.

    I personally have no problem with the 20 mph law as long as I can get there from one edge of the street to the other For inner city riding it is all about the launch and hill bursts and with a BB system there is not as much drag as a hub motor so pedaling efficiency is better for speeds above 20.

    Hadn't seen that Rotwild 29"er either. Nice. Now lets see a Bosch drive on a cargo bike.
    I was trying to find that too. On the way to looking that up I found these Cytronex systems which are just a lightweight electric front hub, lightweight battery and manual throttle. That seems like a pretty good way to go, though there's probably not much in the way of power and range. At least when it's petered out you're not pedaling an extra 20-30 pounds of weight around.

    http://www.cytronex.com/bikes/index.html

  6. #6
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    Have you ever seen an Optibike?

    Pricey, but it makes this Ohm thing look like a Huffy.

  7. #7
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    electric bike is my life and I like so much riding with electric bike.

  8. #8
    tl1
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    Yeah they look like they're functional

    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    Have you ever seen an Optibike?

    Pricey, but it makes this Ohm thing look like a Huffy.
    Probably a great bike as far as function goes but first of all they START at $6000 for the least expensive one and go to $10,000 and that's before you buy any of their pricey upgrades. Esthetically they also look like bloated nightmare versions of old Trek Y-bikes. Neither quality, the price or the looks are for me thanks.

    http://optibike.com/
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails The slickest electric bike I've seen-optibike_helia.jpg  


  9. #9
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    Make that $12,000

    ...not $10,000 for their highest price model. But hold on, get the heavy duty package and it's $800 extra. The commuter package is $500, the 3 year extended warranty is $995! I think these are geared more towards the rich folks that have more money than knowledge.

    http://optibike.com/Optibike-850R.html#attributes

  10. #10
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    For 12k I would rather have one of these:
    The slickest electric bike I've seen-store_empulse1.jpg

    Doesn't pedal and can't use it on the bike path but 100mph and an 80 mile range capacity make spending that kind of money at least a bit more worthwhile
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  11. #11
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    Tax credit for those too

    Quote Originally Posted by MABman View Post
    For 12k I would rather have one of these:

    Doesn't pedal and can't use it on the bike path but 100mph and an 80 mile range capacity make spending that kind of money at least a bit more worthwhile
    Brammo motorcycles are eligible for the recently passed 10% federal tax credit for plug-in vehicles

    About The Federal Tax Incentives
    As part of the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2010 (H.R.1) two new tax incentives were included for electric motorcycles:
    First: is a tax credit in Section 1142 (H.R.1, pp. 214-217) which changes IRS Code Section 30 to allow for 2 wheeled electric vehicles to be included as a qualified plug-in electric vehicle in the overall plug-in vehicle tax credit.

    These vehicles which need to be able to drive on public roads, streets, and highways, are eligible for a 10% Federal Tax Credit up to a maximum of $2,500. This is a Federal tax credit, which reduces your tax liability by the amount of the credit; eg: if you owe $5,000 to the IRS and purchase an $8,000 electric motorcycle package, you would receive an $800 credit and now owe $4,200. If you are owed a refund by the IRS, your refund is increased by the amount of the tax credit
    Second: is a tax deduction for state sales taxes paid on motorcycles under Section 1008 (H.R.1, pp. 203-204).

    This provides all taxpayers with a deduction for State and local sales and excise taxes paid on the purchase of new cars, light truck, recreational vehicles, and motorcycles through 2010. This deduction is subject to a phase-out for taxpayers with adjusted gross income in excess of $125,000 ($250,000 in the case of a joint return). In this case, since it is a Federal tax deduction, the amount comes off your adjusted gross income and reduces the amount of taxes paid based on your income tax bracket

    As with all tax matters, this information does not constitute tax advice, please consult your tax advisor, attorney, or accountant for specific details on how to claim these tax benefits. The IRS will be providing final forms and instructions for these new tax incentives later in 2010.

    http://www.brammo.com/incentives/

    Also, the same bike with 60 mile range instead of 80 mile range is $2000 less.

    http://www.brammo.com/empulse/

    Seems way better than an electric bicycle in some ways.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by tl1 View Post

    Seems way better than an electric bicycle in some ways.
    At least in regards to engineering/equipment per $ for sure. I wonder if you could slide an ebike through on those tax credits?

    Back to the original comments looking at the KTM eBike lineup which features BionX and Bosch models the cost of the Bosch system is on par or even below that of the BionX apparently which makes a bike comparable in spec to the Ohm cost several hundred dollars less not to mention the weight factor. The only drawback is that the Bosch system is frame specific but I do like the way that Haibike approached that.

    http://www.ktm-bikes.at/de/e-bike/index.php

    If you go down to the bottom of that list and check out the eGNITION it looks like even a large corp like KTM is unable to control costs on emerging technical advances in ebikes and have their own 12k plus bike in their stable.

    As popular as ebikes obviously are in the EU the fact of the matter is that their 250w restriction is, well, restrictive. Our 750w regs here opens the door for more Nm of torque which is the key to ebiking. Being able to launch off the line and maintain speed up steep grades while loaded down with more than you would care to carry normally on a daily basis is what is going to make ebikes popular here I believe. I don't care as much about the speed aspect and the 20 mph limit is not that bad as long as I can average that with a load.

    Also this is a good reference of the bikes available with the Bosch (and other) systems:http://www.bosch-ebike.de/en/custome..._brands_2.html
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  13. #13
    tl1
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    Haibikes

    Quote Originally Posted by MABman View Post
    At least in regards to engineering/equipment per $ for sure. I wonder if you could slide an ebike through on those tax credits?

    Back to the original comments looking at the KTM eBike lineup which features BionX and Bosch models the cost of the Bosch system is on par or even below that of the BionX apparently which makes a bike comparable in spec to the Ohm cost several hundred dollars less not to mention the weight factor. The only drawback is that the Bosch system is frame specific but I do like the way that Haibike approached that.

    http://www.ktm-bikes.at/de/e-bike/index.php

    If you go down to the bottom of that list and check out the eGNITION it looks like even a large corp like KTM is unable to control costs on emerging technical advances in ebikes and have their own 12k plus bike in their stable.

    As popular as ebikes obviously are in the EU the fact of the matter is that their 250w restriction is, well, restrictive. Our 750w regs here opens the door for more Nm of torque which is the key to ebiking. Being able to launch off the line and maintain speed up steep grades while loaded down with more than you would care to carry normally on a daily basis is what is going to make ebikes popular here I believe. I don't care as much about the speed aspect and the 20 mph limit is not that bad as long as I can average that with a load.

    Also this is a good reference of the bikes available with the Bosch (and other) systems:http://www.bosch-ebike.de/en/custome..._brands_2.html
    Wow, looking at those Haibikes, KTMs and others it looks like the Euros are getting pretty far along in e-bike development. Too bad about the 250 watt limit for street worthy ones like you've said. I do wonder though if that also translates to significantly lighter weights though making the things well...more bicycle like. I can dig what you're laying down about more torque making them far more usable in more situations though.

    I'm kind of getting reconciled to the fact that good e-bikes will be quite expensive for awhile, not Optibike expensive (or ugly) though. It kind of reminds me of early MTB prices. In the early days of MTBs (early 1980s) I always wanted one but a decent quality one was really quite expensive and I already had a pricey road bike that I had to keep supplied with tubular tires. Eventually Specialized and others came along with good quality mass produced ones of roughly equal qualities at roughly half the price. Maybe a popular somewhat standardized system like the Bosch will help that along if it continually gets less expensive. Back then I wasn't making a lot of money and then along came my kids and I was really broke. I eventually got my first good new MTB in 1994 when prices had come down a lot. I really want to get a good e-bike though so hopefully I won't have to wait that long.



    http://www.haibike.de/produkte_liste_en,3004.html

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by tl1 View Post
    Wow, looking at those Haibikes, KTMs and others it looks like the Euros are getting pretty far along in e-bike development. Too bad about the 250 watt limit for street worthy ones like you've said. I do wonder though if that also translates to significantly lighter weights though making the things well...more bicycle like. I can dig what you're laying down about more torque making them far more usable in more situations though.

    I'm kind of getting reconciled to the fact that good e-bikes will be quite expensive for awhile, not Optibike expensive (or ugly) though. It kind of reminds me of early MTB prices. In the early days of MTBs (early 1980s) I always wanted one but a decent quality one was really quite expensive and I already had a pricey road bike that I had to keep supplied with tubular tires. Eventually Specialized and others came along with good quality mass produced ones of roughly equal qualities at roughly half the price. Maybe a popular somewhat standardized system like the Bosch will help that along if it continually gets less expensive. Back then I wasn't making a lot of money and then along came my kids and I was really broke. I eventually got my first good new MTB in 1994 when prices had come down a lot. I really want to get a good e-bike though so hopefully I won't have to wait that long.
    As far as the electric system goes the motor doesn't penalize the weight, take for example the RC motors that are popular with the hot rodders over on the ES forums. Wattage is affected by volts and amps and that is more to do with the battery actually. The more battery ah the more weight and the Bosch spec is an 8ah battery @ 36v which is 288wh. So at 250w output you will get just over an hr of battery but pushing it to the 500v as listed max you will chew in to that exponentially. Personally I use an average of 12ah/mile with my system via spirited pedaling so factoring in that you will not get a full 8ah due to the BMS with a stock Bosch I would get around 20 miles whereas with my home spun $1000 system, 1000w/12ah(9.5 actual) 48v, I can get 40 miles averaging 20 mph.

    This is the conundrum of ebiking because there are many factors such as overall weight, terrain, temperature, wind etc. that come to bear but that is no different than what you face on a regular bicycle in actuality. But for the most part I find that if you are willing to pedal you can stretch the amount of mileage a long way even with a judicious amount of throttle use resulting in a higher than you would normally be able to achieve average speed.

    So weight of the bike overall still has alot to do with the actual spec of the bike itself and many companies don't pay much attention to that because they scrimp on that to cover the cost of the e system and keep the price inline. It looks like the pricing in the EU is in the 2000 to 2500 EU range. Sales figures are high over there so that must be what the market is willing to bear?

    Some companies like Haibike and KTM are obviously paying more attention to bike spec and are hip to the fact that a bb drive system like the Bosch is good competition for the hub systems and I think you will see more bb drives in the future. Hopefully the EU market will saturate enough to drive down the price before they come over here but if we want a more powerful system that will probably negate any decrease because of the extra cost of the battery upgrade. Having a company like Bosch in on the game with their expertise in the battery field sure is a positive though. But in the end you will probably always be able to piece together a system for less money that has better performance.
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    Wow, I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the Stealth Electric Bike. Definitely the slickest electric MTB out there in my opinion. Crazy expensive at around $7000 I think but its more of an electric dirtbike with pedals if you ask me.



    My money would go towards the Brammo though.

  16. #16
    tl1
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    Those look awesome

    Quote Originally Posted by CodyMCP View Post
    Wow, I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the Stealth Electric Bike. Definitely the slickest electric MTB out there in my opinion. Crazy expensive at around $7000 I think but its more of an electric dirtbike with pedals if you ask me.



    My money would go towards the Brammo though.

    ...but at 75 or 116 pounds with 750 watt motors that can supposedly do either 3000 or 4500 watts max are they really bicycles? I would really hate to see these 50 MPH things on bicycle trails but they might be fun on motorized trails. A 2011 Yamaha YZ450F is cheaper BTW.

    http://www.stealthelectricbikesusa.com/the-bikes.html

    http://www.yamaha-motor.com/sport/pr...9/0/specs.aspx

  17. #17
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    Sweet!

  18. #18
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    The above all suck because they are electric and can only carry the rider. How about a Mundo 500? It carries you and a great deal more, like how about 200 lbs of items in boxes to the FedEx drop off? And it isn't a crazy looking concept or overly complicated, it actually looks like a bike, a cargo bike really. It already exists right here in the Bay Area and costs less than the above options.

  19. #19
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    Wait, KTM makes bicycles? In fact, a huge range of bicycles, even comfort bikes? Wow, that kind of rattled my whole world view. I knew they were playing around with some hybrid moto-x / elec MTB type rigs, but had no idea about all of this.

    Anyway, i'm sort of on the same page as illnacord. Elec really shows it's value when you're hauling cargo. Nice for just a commuter bike too, so you can commute without getting all sweaty and get there quicker, etc, but you don't need a real high-zoot system just for that.

  20. #20
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    German e-bikes

    I've noticed that my local LBS has been putting out more electric assist bikes on the floor. Lots of folks out on the trails and bike paths on a good day so I'm guessing they're targeting a certain demographic. It's fairly hilly here so that may be a factor as well. I can see the electric assist extending touring range.

    Here's an interesting e-trike,


    Low step thru height plus the stability of the trike design would be perfect for older folks.

    Fancy a ride with your sweetie? E-assist tandem!


    Want cruiser bike cool?


    Hybrid?


    This one had the fattest aluminum tubing I've ever seen on a bike. Just take a look at the seatpost! Cool integrated headlights in the stem.


    Hardtail version of the Haibike posted earilier,
    Amolan

  21. #21
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    Interesting, thanks for the pics. Worth noting that all but one of those had crank-interface motors rather than hub motors. That really does seem like the way to go. Although it's probably more complicated and expensive for now.

  22. #22
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    Will those bikes from HaiBikes be available in the United States? Looks like a nice ride

  23. #23
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    [QUOTE=ranier;8162232]I've noticed that my local LBS has been putting out more electric assist bikes on the floor. Lots of folks out on the trails and bike paths on a good day so I'm guessing they're targeting a certain demographic. It's fairly hilly here so that may be a factor as well. I can see the electric assist extending touring range.

    Interesting to see inside a shop over there as it is well documented how well sales of e bikes are going across the pond. We are way behind here in the US and it will be awhile yet before you will be able to get that amount of variety walking through the door of a bike shop!

    It does seem that bb drive systems are gaining popularity over hub systems but as I said in an earlier post it makes the most sense with 250w systems to be able to access the bikes drivetrain and hub motors don't allow for that.

    The power potential here in the states is much higher though as some states allow for up to 1000w and all others are at least 750w. The speed limit is not much higher @ 20 mph but it does allow for much more torque which is what putting an e system on a bike is all about for me anyway. I want the power to be able to launch from stop signs and tackle steep grades with a loaded cargo bike and 250w just doesn't do that like 1000 will.

    It doesn't look good for the EU though in regards to a power upgrade according to this article, although they are already building bikes of the "speed pedelec" class and selling them over there. http://www.bike-eu.com/news/5052/spe...%20juni%202011
    Maybe if they called them "torque" pedelecs instead of speed they might get some traction. Or blend them in to the already in place moped class.
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by illnacord View Post
    The above all suck because they are electric and can only carry the rider. How about a Mundo 500? It carries you and a great deal more, like how about 200 lbs of items in boxes to the FedEx drop off? And it isn't a crazy looking concept or overly complicated, it actually looks like a bike, a cargo bike really. It already exists right here in the Bay Area and costs less than the above options.
    How about this one? The Yuba Mundo with a custom mid-drive. I use this one in our local trails. Climbs the nastiest steeps coz it uses the bike's gearing.



    Mid Drive is the future of e-cargo bikes.

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    electric bikes...

    Hello all, I haven't posted since may (been busy running my Bicycle Shop )... so I hope someone is still checking this thread. Anyways have you folks seen what I think is a very neat electric bicycle. Check out this website....fortunehanebrink.com

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