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  1. #51
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    Prototype in the works

    I have tried to contact Deef a few times over the last couple of years with no success. My buddy and I are working on a prototype of a mount very similar to Deef's, but lighter. We're working out the kinks with spring return and a couple other details, but I'll post here when we have more to show. In all likelihood, we won't be selling a complete kit (no lever, cable and housing), but just the attachment to go on the top-cap assembly and hold/ route the housing.

    We're trying to put something together that would eliminate the need for drilling holes or pulling apart your top-cap- making it both a little "idiot-proof" and avoid voiding warranties with Fox. The result is a "cap" that snaps on to your top-cap. We're also trying to make it affordable. Again, this is still all in prototype stages, but if you're interested, PM me. Prototype has been made for 32mm RL shocks- hasn't been tested on RLC's and might not work without some modification...

    Here's a sneak peak:
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Remote Lockout Fox RL-img_0461.jpg  

    Remote Lockout Fox RL-img_0464.jpg  

    Remote Lockout Fox RL-img_0466.jpg  

    Remote Lockout Fox RL-img_0468.jpg  


  2. #52
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    The prototypes looke PHENOMENAL. I will personal message you regarding pricing and delivery. Has it been tested extensively on the trails? Will the final remain plastic. Absolutely brilliant. My forks are '09, 32mm, Talas RLs.

  3. #53
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    Prototype

    Quote Originally Posted by hsolorza
    The prototypes looke PHENOMENAL. I will personal message you regarding pricing and delivery. Has it been tested extensively on the trails? Will the final remain plastic. Absolutely brilliant.
    The plan is to keep it plastic for now- it's super lightweight and pretty durable. This version has only been on the trails 1/2 dozen times, and so far, so good, but we have to make some tweaks to the top-cap piece. The base is rock solid. We're trying to iron out how the top-cap piece "snaps" on and what's best to use for the spring-return mechanism (a spring or elastic of some sort). It's currently set up with just an old thumb shifter and works great, but I've got a Rock Shox remote lever on order and will set it up with that. The levers are complicated and expensive, which is part of why we'll likely let customers figure out that part on their own. No ideas on pricing yet. Will probably do it for cheaper initially and have people do some riding/ abuse on them, giving us feedback/ ideas. Not looking to make this a big thing, just saw a need and started to tinker...

  4. #54
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    Post it here when you are done and I will buy one. I have an RL and an RLC so I might buy one and try to tweak it for the RLC and then if I get it to work I can buy another for the RL. If not, I can use it on the RL.

    It would be nice if you could work a deal with someone you know in the bike biz to sell a Rock Shox lever with it. This would make the overall deal cheaper for someone assuming you have a decent price and also, allow you to tweak the design for that lever so that people wouldn't have implementation problems with other levers and your design such as different cable pull, etc. Then you only have to support one lever.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by yourdaguy
    Post it here when you are done and I will buy one. I have an RL and an RLC so I might buy one and try to tweak it for the RLC and then if I get it to work I can buy another for the RL. If not, I can use it on the RL.

    It would be nice if you could work a deal with someone you know in the bike biz to sell a Rock Shox lever with it. This would make the overall deal cheaper for someone assuming you have a decent price and also, allow you to tweak the design for that lever so that people wouldn't have implementation problems with other levers and your design such as different cable pull, etc. Then you only have to support one lever.
    I run a little bike shop out of my garage as a hobby (shop mechanic for many years, now a guy with a family and a job that actually pays the bills)- I rebuild forks all the time and will definitely try to test it on an RLC and possibly make one that will work.

    I hear you on the levers. I've been trying lots of different avenues, but haven't pulled through with any connections yet. I'm not interested in putting out a bunch of money to have a stock of levers sitting around- this was just an idea that I'd been playing with in my head for a long time, and a buddy of mine made it a reality- the original purpose was just for personal use (not about to pay Fox $150 for a kit that MIGHT come out in a year... might not...). If you know anyone or if anyone's reading this who has a hookup, and there's enough interest, I would consider it, but I've been hitting a lot of dead ends with that (even contacted QBP and BTI). I have another couple of avenues to try- if I get a break on some levers, I'd probably do just what you're recommending, but if not, then I'm going to keep it low-key and assume that people who are buying are somewhat resourceful do-it-yourselfers who can make it work...

    Again, I'll keep you posted .
    Last edited by alshead; 12-30-2010 at 09:34 PM.

  6. #56
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    I like Al's more generic approach to product development so that the kit could be integrated as part of many remote lockout solutions. Rockshocks would simply be one set of levers.

    Bike accessory and component manufacturers are looking at single lever, variable geometry bike solutions that eventually integrate adjustable seat posts, rear shocks, and front forks.

    A generic kit would allow people to retrofit older bikes with variable geometry solutions using 1, 2, or 3 way remote lockout switches (current and future). Focusing on an exclusively RockShock-centered and 1-way lever solution might restrict viability of Al's kit in a maket that is rapidly changing.

  7. #57
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    Wow this looks amazing. Registered on here just to say that.

    Seriously hats off to you- awesome design.

    Any idea on a release date and cost?

  8. #58
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    @frambo: Thanks. And welcome to mtbr. The first version had a few issues that we're ironing out. The base cap will remain essentially the same, but the top cap has been relatively redesigned and streamlined. We should have our new prototypes in a week or so. I'll set it up, ride it, beat it up, and if it's looking good, I'll post here and let people know how to order. If it needs more refining, it'll be another couple of weeks after that. We're also playing with different spring systems and have a design/ prototype coming in which we'll be testing a rubber-band/ elastic return instead of the spring. Ultimately, this might be the last thing we figure out- the spring we're using now (above), seems to be holding up pretty well, but I'm worried that it will lose its strength in time (and needs to be surprisingly strong). Another possibility would be reversing the cable pull so that when the cable is pulled, it released the lockout instead of engaging it- the reason for this is that if a Fox lockout it pushed (or, in this case, pulled) into lockout mode very strongly, it makes the valve kind of "stick" (PUSH and others actually sand the base of the valve when they rebuild/ overhaul the fork to help the lockout release better and avoid this stiction- especially on RLC's). Anyway, that's more than you asked for. Trust me, I'll keep posting updates here as we get and test the new stuff. I'm excited about the responses I've gotten and it definitely seems like there's a demand.

    As for pricing. I'm unsure as of yet. I've pretty much exhausted every avenue for being able to supply it as a full kit with a lever, so we'll likely just be selling it as a basecap/ topcap version. We might also make just the basecap available if people want to drill their existing blue levers and affix the cable and spring that way- our purpose for the topcap is to have a "snap-on" design that will prevent any warranty issues or drilling, etc, but if people want it the other way, well, the people will get it . There are RockShox Poploc levers available for about $30 if you search around (http://goo.gl/hZCAw). I currently have mine set up with the RS Pushloc, which is slightly different, but I'll get a Poploc and test it with that as well.

    So... I know this might sound crazy, but given that people would have to spend $30-40 on just the lever, I'm wondering what sounds reasonable to those on this thread for pricing?

  9. #59
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    OK, first off one thing I didn't notice is the $ around here.

    You from Denver, me from London. Still, that's not an issue- I've got people all over the US I could get one sent to.

    On my previous bike (since stolen- looking at getting a new one with a fox fork which doesn't have remote lockout) I had a RS Recon with the pop-loc. Was great, but as you say, to be sure that it will work every single time, it had to be quite strong.

    As for pricing, I've no idea what prices are like in the US, but as you say, its $30-40 for just the lever and over here its about 30-40. So I'd probably get one from the US as well.

    Its your time and effort and you deserve to make a gain out of this. I mean, one option I was exploring was to sell the fork and purchase a new one just because the fox remote was so damn expensive if I could find one and would require a new cartridge etc.

    So on that count, as far as I'm concerned you can sell it for whatever price [I]you see fit[I] and I would still purchase one if I have the cash at the time.



    P.S. The rubber band elastic return doesn't sound like the best idea to me. Less friction maybe and smoother motion, but once it breaks (and from my experience with rubber replacing springs its likely it will snap at some point) it would likely be quite problematic to reinstall.

  10. #60
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    There is a price demand curve for every item. If you price it high, you will sell fewer and make a larger profit on each unit. If you sell it low, you will sell a bunch of them and make a little profit on a lot of units. Some point along that curve maximizes your profits.

    The way to do "unscientific" market research is to ask the question:

    would you buy if it was $10
    would you buy if it was $20
    would you buy if it was $30
    would you buy if it was $40
    would you buy if it was $50

    this is "unscientific" because you would generally only ask one of the 5 questions to many people on a random basis, etc. However, if you ask all 5, you will probably get fairly good data and this method is free. Other methods cost money.

    After getting a fair number of responses you can plot the curve (price vs # of units) and then plot your cost curve against that to see the max profit.

    I will start the survey:

    I would for sure buy at $30 or less. Above that, I might buy but would have to think about it.

    So everyone should just send in a reply of what price they would for sure buy if that or below. If we get 50 replies, anyone one the list can collect and run the data. If we have less than 50 replies, the data is still good, but the margin for error is fairly large.

  11. #61
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    I am the user that sees it a necessity so I would buy it for $50 even, if I could afford to.

    However I think the average guy, who doesn't really mind either way whether he has it or not is going to be willing to fork out more like only $30 or less. Pun intended by the way.

    I think a bunch of us would appreciate a black version for those of use that own black fox forks.

    A 2/3 week completion time is perfect, just coincides nicely with the arrival of my new bike I hope!

  12. #62
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    Good job! Incredible Attention to the Details

    I second the idea of a black version and would pay between 30-50 USD for the base-cap/top-cap version. As long as the lockout cap is customer serviceable, you might consider carrying a "spares" kit that would include springs or elastemers.

    BTW, I am VERY IMPRESSED with the amount of consideration that your are giving the design/engineering/testing of the caps.

  13. #63
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    Nice work!

  14. #64
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    Just wanted to keep folks updated- we should be receiving the second version of the prototype today. I'll post pics later and mount it up and keep you updated on development. We are also looking into being able to offer in black and possibly even other colors (blue, red, just for fun). I have finally found a pretty good deal on the RockShocks poploc lever and will test it out and possibly offer that as part of the package. Look for more later this evening...

  15. #65
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    Can't wait!

    Now I'm not sure whether I'll be getting a black or a white fork so I'll just wait and see.

    Just wondering, does the white plastic bit where the spring is attached to need to be so long? The way I see it, that's just something to get broken off or catch on things. Would it not work with a shorter spring or would that make it come into contact with the curved surface?. I can see the point of elastic now- you can make the whole thing smaller and more compact.

    Probably getting ahead of myself but what about a magnet somewhere in the design? Like somehow to keep the lockout even more lockout but weak enough so that when there's the sudden force of the pop lock 'popping' it will dislodge the magnet.


    Anyway, I'm just getting to caught up and excited and spouting nonsense. Pop-lock levers would be great, though what's the other option if that's not desired?

  16. #66
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    Can't wait!

  17. #67
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    I have been exploring the Fox Technical manuals of late and according to Fox the difference between locked and unlocked is less than 90 degrees even though the lever is able to travel over 180 degrees. It looks like you could design for 100 degrees of travel and it would be easier.

  18. #68
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    im not trying to jack the thread, but does anyone know if any of fox rear shocks are remote lockout/adjustable capable?

  19. #69
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    Rear Shocks

    Quote Originally Posted by henry9419
    im not trying to jack the thread, but does anyone know if any of fox rear shocks are remote lockout/adjustable capable?
    Yes- they are. Fox made a kit for some of the rear shocks for a while- they were also making a dual kit that would work with both a rear shock and front shock and lock them both out at the flip of a switch. I think that's also discontinued. I think Fox is focusing more on the Trail/ Downhill category and they're treating the XC folks like second-class citizens a little. Lockout is great for climbing, for SS riding, and lots of other reasons, but they've more or less dropped it as an option on a lot of XC forks.

    There are lots of folks who have developed make-shift remote systems for rear shocks, though- search on youtube and google for fox remote lockout and you'll find some of the examples.

    There was a guy who posted this earlier in the thread and his website says it's no longer available... http://www.precisionkinetic.com/imag...hockremote.jpg

  20. #70
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    Spring rotations, etc

    Quote Originally Posted by yourdaguy
    I have been exploring the Fox Technical manuals of late and according to Fox the difference between locked and unlocked is less than 90 degrees even though the lever is able to travel over 180 degrees. It looks like you could design for 100 degrees of travel and it would be easier.
    Yes- this is something I'm always telling clients of mine- I'm always amazed at how little people know about how their shocks work (and I am no expert, I just understand the settings a bit)- but many people believe that the Fox system works more like the Flood Gate on the Rock Shox, but that's not the case- it is either open or not open, and the release is much less than the full swing of the lever (like you said, less than 90deg).

    Anyway, I'm loving all of the ideas and thoughts. Trust me, we've dreamed to the extent of using a servo and doing a wireless device, to just bagging the whole thing (not to say that we've thought of everything). The problem with a shorter spring is that we're having trouble finding something that will be strong enough and durable enough (where the spring won't lose its memory)- the little tabs that you're looking at in these pics are maybe 2mm big, so we're not talking about something that's flailing out there waiting to get broken off, but we're going to have to get it out there and get feedback and we'll tweak it as needed. As it is, the spring doesn't pull it all the way back, just enough to get the lockout released.

    Still waiting on the latest prototype to arrive- thought it would be earlier this week but now looks like either today or (gasp) Monday- believe me, I'm as anxious as you guys to get these in and figure out if they work.

    @Frambo- the magnet idea is intriguing, but probably not realistic- you'd need a REALLY strong magnet- there is a surprising amount of friction that we're working against (which is why the fox-made versions have a huge internal spring in the topcap similar to a canti brake spring). Our goal, after all of the dreaming, is to make something that will work really well, but be very simple and not require any disassembly of the fork. Snap on, snap off- if we can hit that goal, I think it'll be a really nice device.

    Again, I'll keep folks posted. I've heard from some folks that they've cross- posted some fo this info- if you think of another thread/ forum where we should post when we get this all together and are ready to sell, feel free to pm me.

    Al

  21. #71
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    Hey kids- just wanted to give all of those who were interested an update on things- Our second prototype came in and had a couple of tweaks that still need to be made. We have resubmitted the new model and should have those in about two weeks. If those are looking good, I'll start getting them out to all who are interested, but if we need to make more tweaks, it will be another couple of weeks. Basically, from the time we finish the modeling to receiving the items is 10 working days. I don't want to put something out to you that's not going to work, and we're still figuring out what might be best (for instance, we were able to test the rubber band thing on the this latest prototype, and it's no good- we're also learning about dyeing the plastic so that we can offer black or blue ones as well as white). It's a process. The latest thing is that we're going to be trying a positive/ compression spring around the cable and see how that works as well.

    Great news on the second prototype, however- we have succeeding in making it a fully slip-on and snap-on device. The base slips under the lever and then can be secured into place with a set screw, and the cap snaps on the top and has a small screw for anchoring the cable. Very cool stuff.

    Here are some pics of the latest model to keep you hyped:
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Remote Lockout Fox RL-lockout-base.jpg  

    Remote Lockout Fox RL-lockout-cap.jpg  


  22. #72
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    Awesome!

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    Awesome! Would an RLC version ever be conceivable though??

  24. #74
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    Read the rest of the thread! He is not going to attempt the much harder fitment of the RLC. I have both and will try to adapt his final version and he invited other to try. It will be hard as the compression adjustment ring will be in the way,

  25. #75
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    Hey guys- I'm not opposed to figuring something out for the RLC, it's just not been our focus. Our first step is to figure this one out, make sure it works well and provide a solution, then we can engineer other stuff from there. The RLC would definitely require pulling off the top cap, unless we made a break in the back wall and counted on the flexibility of the plastic to get around the compression dial. Then, we'd have to tweak the topcap a bit- this isn't undoable, just second on the priority list. We're both guys with full time jobs and families and whatnot, so this is also dependent a bit on when we can work on things, get out to ride (being winter), etc, etc.

    Super excited about the ideas and hope we can offer something of value to folks- if the demand is there, and the RL product works well, we'll definitely put something out for RLC's as well.

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