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  1. #1
    The Original Suspect
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    Pro cycling...Pro wrestling...it's not cheating!

    When asked by Oprah if he (Lance) thought he was cheating, Lance answered with a definition of the word. To gain an unfair advantage over one's competitors. And then said, no he didn't think he was cheating. Implying that the playing field was indeed, level.

    To me this puts pro cycling on the same level as pro wrestling...everyone is on steroids so everyone is equal. I guess the difference is that pro wrestling has little or no regulation when it comes to PED's.

    Where does this end? Competition by definition encourages the competitors to reach the highest level possible. Is the answer to allow PED's? And to what degree? To make the playing field level again. What happens when a new "undetectable" drug is invented only for it to become the norm in a few years and the cycle starts all over again?

    It is cheating! Just because the fast majority is doing it, doesn't mean it becomes right!

  2. #2
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    I think the difference here is that Pro Wrestling is not a sport.

    I personally don't care either way, I choose not to live vicariously through other people. That said, if I did watch sports(of any kind) I would want to see superheros play...so PEDs are fine in my book.

  3. #3
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    Any more I have a hard time seeing "professional" sports objectively as pure competition. Like "Pro" wrestling, they are all sliding into the "sports entertainment" classification for the reason that the playing field is almost never level. It's not always drugs. Often it's money that enables a teams advantage, without breaking not even one rule (technically). That money comes from so many places and flows in so many directions that I have a hard time believing that those sources do not hold some sort of influence over the outcome of any contest. Or maybe they influence the scheduling of the events - or the travel - or the accommodations - or the training facilities - or the motivation of the participants... all things that do not happen within the framework of the actual physical contest. So try as they might, a "level" playing field is a pipe dream.

    If you told me every pro league would implement not just a salary cap, but a budget cap whereby all team budgets were the same, they all trained the same, they ate the same, they used the same equipment, and got paid the same (based on their stats), then I might start to believe that sports aren't as fixed as I think they are.

    I wouldn't mind it so much if everyone just called it what it is: "sports entertainment advertising"
    That, I can believe.


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    It's never easier - you just go faster.

  4. #4
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    @ Fleas, I totally agree with you. I think that the almighty dollar rules the outcome of professional sports to some degree. We see it nearly every year with sports like pro basketball. The playoffs are comprised of half the teams in the NBA and the winning team plays enough games to equal about 25% of the regular season. This is just ridiculous, not to mention that a fair amount of the playoff series' go the distance. Advertisers need those series' to go long for the additional revenue.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by HitmenOnlyInc View Post
    @ Fleas, I totally agree with you. I think that the almighty dollar rules the outcome of professional sports to some degree. We see it nearly every year with sports like pro basketball. The playoffs are comprised of half the teams in the NBA and the winning team plays enough games to equal about 25% of the regular season. This is just ridiculous, not to mention that a fair amount of the playoff series' go the distance. Advertisers need those series' to go long for the additional revenue.
    +1
    Tip of the iceberg, IMO.
    [tinfoil hats]
    Why do certain teams seem to win more often? ...even when a bunch of players from losing teams ends up on the same team that wins. Could it be that the markets for those winning teams have the most money to spend? Therefore, it is financially sound for the league to have or allow certain teams to always do well, since the market will support more sales of tickets and merch., while other markets, no matter how many championships were won, would never have as much money to spend on the team [merch.] as those other "winning" markets - which I might argue are somehow better supported financially, or the outcomes are more than influenced... they are actually pre-determined. So it is financially risky to support those teams in those "poorer" markets too much. The return on the investment in personnel and advertising is more limited - but it is predictable. And they can throw them a bone every few years to pacify the fans (everybody loves the underdog), but the lion's share of support will always end up in the wealthier market.
    [/tinfoil hats]

    -F
    It's never easier - you just go faster.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by HitmenOnlyInc View Post
    When asked by Oprah if he (Lance) thought he was cheating, Lance answered with a definition of the word. To gain an unfair advantage over one's competitors. And then said, no he didn't think he was cheating. Implying that the playing field was indeed, level.

    To me this puts pro cycling on the same level as pro wrestling...everyone is on steroids so everyone is equal. I guess the difference is that pro wrestling has little or no regulation when it comes to PED's.

    Where does this end? Competition by definition encourages the competitors to reach the highest level possible. Is the answer to allow PED's? And to what degree? To make the playing field level again. What happens when a new "undetectable" drug is invented only for it to become the norm in a few years and the cycle starts all over again?

    It is cheating! Just because the fast majority is doing it, doesn't mean it becomes right!

    First, what is PED?

    Second, you all focus on drugs and whatnot, but what about the bikes themselves? Aren't cervelo users cheating even by Lance's way of looking at things?

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by aBicycle View Post
    First, what is PED?

    Second, you all focus on drugs and whatnot, but what about the bikes themselves? Aren't cervelo users cheating even by Lance's way of looking at things?
    Ped-performance enhancing drugs.

  8. #8
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    Hmmm, seems like a great idea to me... encourage the youth of the world to take more dangerous artificial substances to get artificially stronger to become meaningless and pointless 'entertainers'. In the process pretty much destroying their long-term health, and the whole reason for human competition in sport. Yup, great ideas!
    It's all Here. Now.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by HitmenOnlyInc View Post
    I think that the almighty dollar rules the outcome of professional sports to some degree.

    More like to the Nth degree I'd say.

    I am a little surprised at how shocked and dismayed most people are over the LA incident. Lance is the perfect scapegoat because he is so huge an @$$hole that I'm sure he must have had a special coach to become as good in that department as he was a cyclist.

    All of our professional sports heros "cheat" in one way or another and it is my personal opinion that though they are guilty the blame for their crime lies higher up. Lance is (was) just a cog in a machine who wouldn't have been there if he wasn't with the "program", along with hundreds of other pros who began their careers full of youthful idealism. If not Lance it would have been someone else.

    So, while the mob skewers Lance with pitchforks and torches the true guilty party saunters along freely with their bank accounts brimming. A microcosm of what's wrong with this world IMO.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by aBicycle View Post
    First, what is PED?

    Second, you all focus on drugs and whatnot, but what about the bikes themselves? Aren't cervelo users cheating even by Lance's way of looking at things?
    I think the difference is that advancements in bicycle technology are welcomed. But, you may be right. Why don't they make all riders ride the same bike spec'd the same way...make the playing field fair. Isn't what they do in NASCAR and other motor sports?

  11. #11
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    The problem I see with pros using PED is that it affects the kids aspiring to compete at the pro level. The kids in college and high school will need to use, to be able to get into the college with the pro's attention, and to try out for the pro's later. Testing now, randomly at home and during training camps as well as at races, is much safer for everyone who competes.

    If Lance did pay off testing agents, then he was cheating at the time. Otherwise the blood replacement he and many pros did before races had him test clean after the races by the rules at the time.

    Retroactive rules are unfair, retroactive rules cheat the players, teams, and sponsors, and the whole sport is disgraced, cheated by retroactive rules. Lance was right, bringing him down was a "witch-hunt". It is past history, time now to move forward with safer rules.

  12. #12
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    Really interesting argument. I agree, but wouldn't take it to quite the same degree. I believe it would be in the best interest of professional sport to ensure that financial constraints are removed from the equation. Nothing bothers me more than seeing a team "buy" a championship.

    Training and diet, to me, are part of strategy and dedication. As long as financial constraints have been removed, it is up to individual teams to train, practice and eat correctly. Granted, this is easier said than done particularly in amateur sport, but in professional leagues this could be part of the "budget cap" you mentioned.

    BTW - you make an important point and not enough people understand this. Pro sports is first and foremost entertainment and a business, not an athletic competition. Fairness and "true" competition should be part of what makes pro sports entertaining, but that seems not to be a strict requirement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fleas View Post
    Any more I have a hard time seeing "professional" sports objectively as pure competition. Like "Pro" wrestling, they are all sliding into the "sports entertainment" classification for the reason that the playing field is almost never level. It's not always drugs. Often it's money that enables a teams advantage, without breaking not even one rule (technically). That money comes from so many places and flows in so many directions that I have a hard time believing that those sources do not hold some sort of influence over the outcome of any contest. Or maybe they influence the scheduling of the events - or the travel - or the accommodations - or the training facilities - or the motivation of the participants... all things that do not happen within the framework of the actual physical contest. So try as they might, a "level" playing field is a pipe dream.

    If you told me every pro league would implement not just a salary cap, but a budget cap whereby all team budgets were the same, they all trained the same, they ate the same, they used the same equipment, and got paid the same (based on their stats), then I might start to believe that sports aren't as fixed as I think they are.

    I wouldn't mind it so much if everyone just called it what it is: "sports entertainment advertising"
    That, I can believe.


    -F

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by derby View Post
    ...Lance was right, bringing him down was a "witch-hunt". It is past history, time now to move forward with safer rules.
    Witch hunt is right. What about all the other dopers who didn't win? They still doped. Find them. Charge them. Ban them. Expunge their results. They should be easier to catch. After all, their doping programs weren't "the most sophisticated". I mean if they're really cleaning up the sport (and not just discouraging the practice) they could have caught 50 of those other guys with the effort it took to catch one Lance.

    Or did they already catch them all?

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  14. #14
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    They even came out with a movie for it





    Quote Originally Posted by Fleas View Post
    Witch hunt is right. What about all the other dopers who didn't win? They still doped. Find them. Charge them. Ban them. Expunge their results. They should be easier to catch. After all, their doping programs weren't "the most sophisticated". I mean if they're really cleaning up the sport (and not just discouraging the practice) they could have caught 50 of those other guys with the effort it took to catch one Lance.

    Or did they already catch them all?

    -F

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fleas View Post
    Witch hunt is right. What about all the other dopers who didn't win? They still doped. Find them. Charge them. Ban them. Expunge their results. They should be easier to catch. After all, their doping programs weren't "the most sophisticated". I mean if they're really cleaning up the sport (and not just discouraging the practice) they could have caught 50 of those other guys with the effort it took to catch one Lance.
    Many have been caught over the years. Check it out here...

    My favorite comes from the rule change in 1930...

    The acceptance of drug-taking in the Tour de France was so complete by 1930 that the rule book, distributed by Henri Desgrange, reminded riders that drugs would not be provided by the organisers.

    What? The organisers would no longer be supplying the drugs for the riders!!! Yup. The riders had to bring their own drugs starting with the rule change in 1930.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    More like to the Nth degree I'd say.

    I am a little surprised at how shocked and dismayed most people are over the LA incident. Lance is the perfect scapegoat because he is so huge an @$$hole that I'm sure he must have had a special coach to become as good in that department as he was a cyclist.

    All of our professional sports heros "cheat" in one way or another and it is my personal opinion that though they are guilty the blame for their crime lies higher up. Lance is (was) just a cog in a machine who wouldn't have been there if he wasn't with the "program", along with hundreds of other pros who began their careers full of youthful idealism. If not Lance it would have been someone else.

    So, while the mob skewers Lance with pitchforks and torches the true guilty party saunters along freely with their bank accounts brimming. A microcosm of what's wrong with this world IMO.

    You nailed it, government and a lot of big business are also in the "program".

  17. #17
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    The Onion has a great piece on Lance Armstrong that links him to wrestling as well :P

    Can't post link, but search The Onion Lance Armstrong - Killstrong

  18. #18
    dwt
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    Quote Originally Posted by BruceBrown View Post
    Many have been caught over the years. Check it out here...
    Indeed.

    If you want to stubbornly and pathetically hang on to Armstrong mythology and agree with him that going after him was a "witch hunt"; all I can say is that they caught a real live Alpha Witch red handed. Good thing for cycling; good thing for all pro sports. Ding dong the witch is dead!

    Also, don't try to bring your whiney complaints to Australia. If Tone on MTBR doesn't kick the crap out if you, these blokes will:

    http://velonews.competitor.com/2013/...al-liar_272035
    Old enough to know better. And old enough not to care. Best age to be.

  19. #19
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    There's no argument that Lance is a world class A-hole, and the way he handled this situation was just horrible, that said at the end of the day it's history. There's no point to this. Now that they dig it up, where does it end, or Lance is the only one that managed to piss them off.

    It's just a very interesting race that does not really prove the winner is the strongest rider. No one rider is killing himself from kilometer one to the finish line, you may allow to win the stage if the finish line happens to be your home town. The hardest worker does not get yellow jersey but green. The race for the yellow stop the day before the finish line regardless of how close it is, ya da blah, etc.

    I like what derby said, they didn't catch him while it was happening, now they are retroactively apply the rules to get their man. It's not stopping any dopers at TDF, time will tell if it'd slow down

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by mimi1885 View Post
    It's just a very interesting race that does not really prove the winner is the strongest rider. No one rider is killing himself from kilometer one to the finish line, you may allow to win the stage if the finish line happens to be your home town. The hardest worker does not get yellow jersey but green. The race for the yellow stop the day before the finish line regardless of how close it is, ya da blah, etc.

    sarcasm?

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by TBarnaby View Post
    I think the difference here is that Pro Wrestling is not a sport.
    "It's real to me damn it"




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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    Indeed.

    If you want to stubbornly and pathetically hang on to Armstrong mythology and agree with him that going after him was a "witch hunt"; all I can say is that they caught a real live Alpha Witch red handed. Good thing for cycling; good thing for all pro sports. Ding dong the witch is dead!

    Also, don't try to bring your whiney complaints to Australia. If Tone on MTBR doesn't kick the crap out if you, these blokes will:

    Aussie cycling, triathlon chiefs call Lance Armstrong “delusional,’ ‘pathological liar’
    Not defending Lance. He is most certainly the biggest baddest witch. And maybe it was his own fault that his case alone got blown out of all reasonable proportion (media coverage, cost, $$$ involved, number of people involved, etc.), but no one made such a big whoop out of any other doping cases ever - and as BB pointed out, there have been many. Even those "congressional hearings" with MLB were a smaller matter than the Lance media circus. ...not sure what unit of measure I am using to quantify that, though.
    Maybe giving it more attention is one way to discourage future violators.

    -F
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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    sarcasm?
    No, that was my impression watching my first tour. I was new to cycling and I just didn't get it. Why give someone a stage win when you can get it. Not til Phil and Paul explains how it's "unwritten rules". So I guess same goes to if you dope or not keep your mouth shut


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