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  1. #26
    What day are we riding?
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    Nothing is wrong with defending proprietary rights...

    Quote Originally Posted by mtbfool
    Again, what is wrong with defending your proprietary rights? Would you blame a small company for defending theirs? What if someone were inappropriately using your work product? Something you put years into developing and went through the appropriate legal steps to protect as yours. Something that put food on your table, your employees and all their families' tables? What if someone infringing on that right could affect the lifestyle you have become accustomed to? I bet you wouldn't like it. I bet you would defend it.
    and I don't think that was what he was referring to. The problem is when a company self-defines what is "theirs" so broadly and then uses the legal system to attack other companies using their own inappropriate self-definition of what is "theirs".

    Case in point which BlueMountain referenced is Mountain Cycles Stumptown cyclocross bike. Mountain Cycles being a Portland company named their new frame the "Stumptown" in honor of Portland, which has "Stumptown" as one of its historically recognized nicknames. Result - Specialized threatens to sue Mountain Cycles as they have the rights to "Stumpjumper" and the average consumer is going to be misled by Mountain Cycles calling their bike the "Stumptown". Never mind that one is a mountain bike and one is a cyclocross bike. Never mind that "Stumptown" is a historically recognized name for the hometown of the manufacturer.

    I am all for defending your proprietary rights. I wouldn't blame a small company for defending theirs. I don't think Mountain Cycles was inappropriately using Specialized's work product? I don't think Specialized put years into developing "Stumptown" and went through the appropriate legal steps to protect that name.



    Sorry to the starter of this thread - Glad everything worked out for you.

  2. #27
    I'm a unitard!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rockin
    and I don't think that was what he was referring to. The problem is when a company self-defines what is "theirs" so broadly and then uses the legal system to attack other companies using their own inappropriate self-definition of what is "theirs".

    Case in point which BlueMountain referenced is Mountain Cycles Stumptown cyclocross bike. Mountain Cycles being a Portland company named their new frame the "Stumptown" in honor of Portland, which has "Stumptown" as one of its historically recognized nicknames. Result - Specialized threatens to sue Mountain Cycles as they have the rights to "Stumpjumper" and the average consumer is going to be misled by Mountain Cycles calling their bike the "Stumptown". Never mind that one is a mountain bike and one is a cyclocross bike. Never mind that "Stumptown" is a historically recognized name for the hometown of the manufacturer.

    I am all for defending your proprietary rights. I wouldn't blame a small company for defending theirs. I don't think Mountain Cycles was inappropriately using Specialized's work product? I don't think Specialized put years into developing "Stumptown" and went through the appropriate legal steps to protect that name.



    Sorry to the starter of this thread - Glad everything worked out for you.

    That's a very good example. I'm glad somebody decided to use it instead of just saying Specialized's practices are bad without giving examples. However, I can also see S's side of that too. Do I think Specialized is right in this situation? Not necessarily.

    I don't know if one poor decision makes a bad company. If somebody has different examples, please provide them. They do a lot of things for mountain biking and the industry. I think this situation is one good example.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbfool
    That's a very good example. I'm glad somebody decided to use it instead of just saying Specialized's practices are bad without giving examples. However, I can also see S's side of that too. Do I think Specialized is right in this situation? Not necessarily.

    I don't know if one poor decision makes a bad company. If somebody has different examples, please provide them. They do a lot of things for mountain biking and the industry. I think this situation is one good example.

    http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.ph...98#post2246298
    I'm not very smart, but I can lift heavy things

  4. #29
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    great story, i haven't read the original thread but its good to see that YOU are happy... in the end, thats all that really matters.

  5. #30
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    ... and if we just ... Wow!

    Jut8, great to see that you got all your problems resolved. Where do you find time to ride all of those great bikes?

  6. #31
    The Other Dude
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Haynes
    Jut8, great to see that you got all your problems resolved. Where do you find time to ride all of those great bikes?
    I am a high school Technology/Shop teacher, so guess what i do all summer!
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  7. #32
    Five is right out
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    That was an eye-opening thread.

  8. #33
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    Maybe I am just cynical but you have spent tens of thousands on specialized bikes. You have a major problem with a very expensive bike and you start making waves by posting on the forum. So specialized throws you a bone by giving you a bike at a reduced cost plus some free gifts. In the end if you convinced a couple people not to buy a specialized bike with your original problem story they would have lost more money then giving you a bike at cost or even at a loss. They get a bunch of good publicity and sell more bikes. I mean it seems like a good deal all around and good customer service is great but they are getting other benefits for giving you such a sweet deal. My guess is if you disn't post the original thread up you would not have heard anything from them. The squeeky wheel gets the grease right?

    That being said I would still have taken the bike and then wrote a kiss ass post about what they were doing for me if i was in your situation.

  9. #34
    over 50 years of cycling
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    No good just my thoughts and experiences

    Funny to read all the hullabaloo about the "Brain Fart" shock.
    I have owned 2 Specialized bikes in my mtn bike history, buying them on the basis of Specialized good rep in getting the early "common man's" mt bikes rolling off the line in the early days of mtn biking.

    Maybe your recent interaction shows they are getting it together again in customer service. I got soured on them as a company based on MY particular experience, which may have just been bad timing.

    I had a first gen Brain shock Epic pro. Its the only bike in my 45 years of riding that I ever actually HATED. Sometimes a hardtail, sometimes a bit of suspension, and you will find out only upon impact which it will be. I finally bit the bullet and sold it to a xc racer type, which seems to be the main group that loves that so called suspension.(that and people that were riding hardtails) I can only hope that Specialized keeps that technology so locked up that it goes the way of Betamax.

    My previous bike to that one was a 2001 or so Stumpjumper FSR Comp. Loved the way the bike handled, if I could only ride it more than a month without another part of the frame breaking, and I do not even do "air". I never did figure out if the LBS was jerking me around or if it was Specialized. The shop owner said that the Specialized was giving him a hard time on the warranty claims. Warranty apparently only covered the bike if you didn't ride it. It was obvious the failures were just poor production control. Specialized would only replace one bit of that lemon a tiny piece at a time. I finally got the shop owner to agree that for whatever reason, this bike was not working for me (it was just over a year old). He made a deal, with me paying $400 and turning in the FSR , that I could upgrade to a "heavier duty" Epic. I wasn't given any other choice, so I did it. I pretty much took a sabbatical from mtn biking as a result of the Epic.

    I was definitely NOT impressed by the customer service I received via the Local Bike Shop from Specialized.

    I would be hard pressed to buy a Specialized product again. I have learned "never say never", but pretty darn unlikely.

    I am discovering the joy of mtn biking again on my Ellsworth Epiphany. Specialized can keep their names and patents from my viewpoint.
    Live in the moment.
    YMMV

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rockin
    and I don't think that was what he was referring to. The problem is when a company self-defines what is "theirs" so broadly and then uses the legal system to attack other companies using their own inappropriate self-definition of what is "theirs".

    Case in point which BlueMountain referenced is Mountain Cycles Stumptown cyclocross bike. Mountain Cycles being a Portland company named their new frame the "Stumptown" in honor of Portland, which has "Stumptown" as one of its historically recognized nicknames. Result - Specialized threatens to sue Mountain Cycles as they have the rights to "Stumpjumper" and the average consumer is going to be misled by Mountain Cycles calling their bike the "Stumptown". Never mind that one is a mountain bike and one is a cyclocross bike. Never mind that "Stumptown" is a historically recognized name for the hometown of the manufacturer.

    I am all for defending your proprietary rights. I wouldn't blame a small company for defending theirs. I don't think Mountain Cycles was inappropriately using Specialized's work product? I don't think Specialized put years into developing "Stumptown" and went through the appropriate legal steps to protect that name.
    This is far from a company "Self-defining" what is "theirs." It is clear that you have little if any understanding of trademark law. While I am not an expert in the area, I have litigated two trademark cases in the past year and am familiar with the law.

    In order to protect a trademarked name, you must actively keep parties from infringing upon it. When you as a trademark (or service mark as the case may be) holder become of aware of a product that uses a similar name, look, or other characters that could cause consumers in the marketplace to believe that it originates from your company, you have two choices, 1) enforce your property right, or 2) allow it to be erroded. The problem is that case law takes the view that to the extent that you allow another to continue to market and sell a product once you have become aware that it infringes on your mark, you are deemed to have allowed your rights to be erroded and you may not be able to defend against future infringments that are more blatent.

    Here it is a no brainer in my book that the Stump**** name is synominous with Specialized in the sale or bikes. There is a multi factor test that is utilized in determining if there is infringment, but to keep it simple, look at it this way, if you were to remove the labels from the Mountain Cycle Stumptown bike and the equivilant Specialized bike, would the average consumer know who the manufacture of the bike was? The answer is no. The Stump*** is a dominate distinguishing factor.

    Also, don't forget, Mountain Cycle is not some little backyard builder. They are a division of Kinesis.
    Riding slowly since 1977.

  11. #36
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    my first mtb was a 2000 stumpjumper pro. I loved that bike. After a year, the frame cracked and I went to to my LBS to have it replaced. Guess what? The big S wanted to replace it with a frame one level down. After my LBS FINALLY persuaded them to do the right thing, they shipped the correct frame. I never built it up or took it out if the box, but sold it. I've purchsed 6 high end mtb's since then, none form the big S.
    If you're lucky enough to be in the mountains,
    you're lucky enough.

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twisted Trail
    Funny to read all the hullabaloo about the "Brain Fart" shock.
    I have owned 2 Specialized bikes in my mtn bike history, buying them on the basis of Specialized good rep in getting the early "common man's" mt bikes rolling off the line in the early days of mtn biking.

    Maybe your recent interaction shows they are getting it together again in customer service. I got soured on them as a company based on MY particular experience, which may have just been bad timing.

    I had a first gen Brain shock Epic pro. Its the only bike in my 45 years of riding that I ever actually HATED. Sometimes a hardtail, sometimes a bit of suspension, and you will find out only upon impact which it will be. I finally bit the bullet and sold it to a xc racer type, which seems to be the main group that loves that so called suspension.(that and people that were riding hardtails) I can only hope that Specialized keeps that technology so locked up that it goes the way of Betamax.

    My previous bike to that one was a 2001 or so Stumpjumper FSR Comp. Loved the way the bike handled, if I could only ride it more than a month without another part of the frame breaking, and I do not even do "air". I never did figure out if the LBS was jerking me around or if it was Specialized. The shop owner said that the Specialized was giving him a hard time on the warranty claims. Warranty apparently only covered the bike if you didn't ride it. It was obvious the failures were just poor production control. Specialized would only replace one bit of that lemon a tiny piece at a time. I finally got the shop owner to agree that for whatever reason, this bike was not working for me (it was just over a year old). He made a deal, with me paying $400 and turning in the FSR , that I could upgrade to a "heavier duty" Epic. I wasn't given any other choice, so I did it. I pretty much took a sabbatical from mtn biking as a result of the Epic.

    I was definitely NOT impressed by the customer service I received via the Local Bike Shop from Specialized.

    I would be hard pressed to buy a Specialized product again. I have learned "never say never", but pretty darn unlikely.

    I am discovering the joy of mtn biking again on my Ellsworth Epiphany. Specialized can keep their names and patents from my viewpoint.
    Yeah, Ellsworth never patented anything or came with names for stuff....ahem ICT...cough....cough

  13. #38
    Life is Good
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    Quote Originally Posted by azjonboy
    my first mtb was a 2000 stumpjumper pro. I loved that bike. After a year, the frame cracked and I went to to my LBS to have it replaced. Guess what? The big S wanted to replace it with a frame one level down. After my LBS FINALLY persuaded them to do the right thing, they shipped the correct frame. I never built it up or took it out if the box, but sold it. I've purchsed 6 high end mtb's since then, none form the big S.
    I cracked a baseline 2002 Enduro last spring (which I bought second hand, making the warranty void) and Specialized warrantied it for free with a 2004 Enduro Pro frame. I love the company and will continue to spend my money with them. Jut's story is just another example of their care for their company and their product.
    Get a bicycle. You will not regret it if you live. ~Mark Twain

  14. #39
    Weird huh?
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    my $0.02..........

    Since there seem to be a few Specialized haters out there......
    Here's my opinion, (since nobody asked)

    Specialized is a company that was able to weather the ups and downs of the bike industry for the last 20+ years. Something not easily done.

    Today, love them or hate them, Specialized is known probably more for their bikes, than their components. Not always the case.

    I was involved in bike racing (road) for 11 years. The USCF used to have catagories 'back in the day'. Maybe they still do, but I'm not sure. The road racing scene in the early 90's meant driving from state to state for the major race series. Lots of expense, little or no money.
    Specialized was the company you could count on to provide quality components, reasonably priced, and they worked. Tires, tubes, gloves, helmets........the stuff you went through a lot of. It meant something to have an American name on your stuff......and a local Bay Area company as well. Hell, most folks don't even realize that the standard water bottle shape and valve was something that just didn't exist before Specialized perfected it. Even the Specialized toe straps had that ridged roller on the buckle, something that Christophoe's and Bindas didn't. Made all the difference. Things that worked.
    Fast forward to now, and I even own an Epic. I purchased only the frame and Brain from Ebay, (my one and only Ebay purchase) Know what? It works. Well. It's older, (a 2003), but I've had zero issues with it. Wh'en and if it ever breaks....I'll get another Epic.

    To me, Specialized is one of the few companies that have been there from the start. Their stuff changes of course, some good, some 'probably not as good, but they're still out there. I'm aware they make super high end production bikes like the new carbon fibre Epics and things.......but they also still make consumables. Gloves, tubes, etc.
    They've got my support, even if I never purchase a bike from them.

    Cheers
    And don't do the burrito jump... Francois

  15. #40
    over 50 years of cycling
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    its all in the details

    Quote Originally Posted by Unknownrash
    Yeah, Ellsworth never patented anything or came with names for stuff....ahem ICT...cough....cough
    If you actually READ my post......
    I was NOT debating Specialized having patents. I have been in fact pointedly avoiding that part of this thread. I am an engineer. I understand how patents work.

    I was saying that FOR ME, the Epic brain patent was one they could tie up and have it go away and I would be fine, although obviously some people LOVE that Brain Fart technology.

    I was also noting that I was unlucky enough to apparently catch Specialized on one of its low points as a company, which soured ME on Specialized, when they were having product quality issues combined with bad customer service. BUT I was remarking that I am GLAD to hear that they seem to be improving again, and I am really rooting for them to continue that improvement.

    Actually, there are some pretty good parallels with Ellsworth besides the patent thing. Ellsworth also went through a quality and customer service nadir a few years ago. (maybe it was an industry wide problem??) and now they have turned around on both those issues, but Ellsworth ALSO soured some people on their company, that had the bad luck of buying product from them at that time.

    I hope Specialized (and Ellsworth) has seen its last low point and will continue to understand that quality and customer service needs to be more than just words.
    Live in the moment.
    YMMV

  16. #41
    The Other Dude
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    As if getting the bike wasent enough, they also threw in a pair of their Carbon Pro Riding shoes, and a pair of cold weather gloves..........I cant wait to try them out, its freakin freezing here, and all I have been using is normal gloves....can you say numb fingers!





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  17. #42
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    Glad it worked out for you and your happy.

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