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  1. #1
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    Not too impressed with Chris King c.s.

    I bought a King headset new from a lbs over the weekend. When I got it home, I realized it was the old o-ring style cap, so it must have sat on the shelf a while. Called Chris King up and they basically told me "yep, it's the old style, we sold it to the shop, its the shop's inventory, we can sell you an upgrade cap though". I realize it's not their fault the shop was selling a 3 year old hs as new, but they didn't exactly make a happy customer out of me. I had their stuff on other bikes i have owned, but I won't be buying any more of their stuff if a part that cost them pennies to produce is too dear to make a customer happy.

  2. #2
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    Did the shop mislead you somehow on how old it was?

    If I were you I would just return it and have them order you the new version.
    All good things in all good time

  3. #3
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    Bottom line is it was the shop that screwed you why hold it against CK.
    Quote Originally Posted by NDD View Post
    Dude, I'm in Illinois. The only place anyone would come from that would say this area is hilly is Kansas.

  4. #4
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    Not too impressed with Chris King c.s.

    I think their customer service is fantastic. They still service my 20 year old headsets. I think you should have looked at the headset a little closer when you bought it.

  5. #5
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    I recommend taking it back to the LBS you purchased it from and see if they can order you the current version.

    Maybe CK customer service didn't meet your expectations, but really the LBS is the one you should hold accountable.

  6. #6
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    I do not see how it is Chris King's fault that you bought the wrong headset. Also I don't think that they are entitled to give you anything. Go back and talk to the LBS and see if you can work out a deal. People need to take more personal responsibility before giving the company a bad name.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by jhill View Post
    I do not see how it is Chris King's fault that you bought the wrong headset. Also I don't think that they are entitled to give you anything. Go back and talk to the LBS and see if you can work out a deal. People need to take more personal responsibility before giving the company a bad name.
    +one

  8. #8
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    Considering it's been 3 years since they started using compression rings, I don't think I should have been expected to scrutinize the packaging. No worries. I will make the 200 mile round trip and return it this weekend, and then I think I will go buy a Cane Creek 110. Customer service is how you deal with issues like this. You might think they are fantastic. I have a different opinion based on my experience, and just because you haven't had a bad experience doesn't make mine invalid.

  9. #9
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    RE: Not too impressed with Chris King c.s.

    But you didn't have a bad experience. You even said it wasn't CKs fault above. Why hold them accountable and expect to give you anything when it was the shop's fault in the first place?
    Sent from my RM-820_nam_att_100 using Board Express

  10. #10
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    I guess I feel like they should upgrade the cap based on how little effort it would take and the fact that ultimately the fault doesn't lie with me. I'm not gonna worry about it at this point. I'll take it back and get a CC 110. Won't have to examine it to make sure it's not old stock on a shelf.

  11. #11
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    So what you are suggesting is that a company buy back all of its dealer's old stock every time the company makes a design change? No company does that and they would not be in business for long if they did. Sounds like you are more upset at yourself for not verifying what you purchased beforehand and now have to make a 200 mile round trip to fix your own mistake.

  12. #12
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    Not too impressed with Chris King c.s.

    It's a LBS problem, not CK. Mail it back for a refund and save the gas.

    Good luck


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  13. #13
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    Well, this is clearly a sores fault, ck has nothing to do with it. Also you should have been a little more careful when you bought it..
    Last edited by Max24; 03-02-2015 at 08:53 PM.

  14. #14
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    If I lived 100 miles from a bike shop (that's not even considered "local" IMO) I would have just purchased it from the interwebs... Plenty of CK authorized dealers on the web.

  15. #15
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    I find it really odd that you are blaming this on CK. You bought the wrong headset, dude. Own it.
    All good things in all good time

  16. #16
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    Not to mention that design has worked flawlessly for many thousands of people.
    It doesn't need fixing.
    It was never recalled.
    And you can purchase the new part easily.
    File under: whine
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  17. #17
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    No, you didn't buy a, "Chris King headset new". You bought a CK HS NOS.

    Could you imagine if just one tenth of one percent of the people who bought the old HS suddenly decided CK should upgrade the cap for free. They would go out of business.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by ugapug View Post
    Oh, you've hurt my feelings. Punk ass *****. Somehow, I doubt you'd be quite so tough in person, e-stud.

    At any rate, it's only 30 bucks to upgrade the upper bearing cap, which is a helluva lot cheaper than driving back. As someone who spent quite a few years in customer service at a hobby shop, I think I know what good service is. I would have told the customer that the headset was new but sitting on the shelf a long time, but that's just me. However, ultimately, it's King's product, regardless of where it was sold. I would have probably upgraded the cap if I were them, but that's just me, I guess they can do no wrong in your eyes. You're damned right I was upset when I got home and found that they sold me a freaking 3 year out of date headset. Is it the WRONG headset, dude? No, it's just using an outdated retention method. Luckily, it can be fixed. I doubt I'll go back to the shop I got it from, however.
    So, are you keeping the headset now?

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by ugapug View Post
    Oh, you've hurt my feelings. Punk ass *****. Somehow, I doubt you'd be quite so tough in person, e-stud.

    At any rate, it's only 30 bucks to upgrade the upper bearing cap, which is a helluva lot cheaper than driving back. As someone who spent quite a few years in customer service at a hobby shop, I think I know what good service is. I would have told the customer that the headset was new but sitting on the shelf a long time, but that's just me. However, ultimately, it's King's product, regardless of where it was sold. I would have probably upgraded the cap if I were them, but that's just me, I guess they can do no wrong in your eyes. You're damned right I was upset when I got home and found that they sold me a freaking 3 year out of date headset. Is it the WRONG headset, dude? No, it's just using an outdated retention method. Luckily, it can be fixed. I doubt I'll go back to the shop I got it from, however.
    Wow, I hope you dont run a business, because if you run it the way you are describing it wont be around for long.

    It sucks that you purchased the previous version headset (You did not order the new version from CK and they made a shipping mistake - if that was the case then ya, it would have been poor CS)

    Good news is there is nothing wrong with the previous version CK headsets - I have used them on several bikes with zero issues.

    Out of curiosity, what size fork is going to be mounted in the headset?

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    Could you imagine if just one tenth of one percent of the people who bought the old HS suddenly decided CK should upgrade the cap for free. They would go out of business.
    I wouldn't be one of those people, because I've had 2 CK headsets in continuous use for 12+ years on XC and DH applications, have never replaced or upgraded anything, and haven't even had them apart other than putting them in new frames when the old frames break.

    And I have no idea what problem I'm supposed to have been having all these years that this upgrade would solve.

    I'd just install the headset and ride it. Worry less. Way less.
    The above statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration

  21. #21
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    Same here! It's only like the most trouble free part in mountain bike history. I'd say that he probably got it pretty cheap, but he did buy it from an LBS. You know how that goes.

  22. #22
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    Chris Kings has no responsibility in this; it is between you and the shop. But, and perhaps more importantly, I don't know why this is problem. I have these "old" headsets on 4 bikes and have for years.
    I don't rattle.

  23. #23
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    The CS issue seems to be with your LBS, not Chris King. Deal with them before hitting up the manufacturer.

  24. #24
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    I get what the OP is saying. It's just like the other day when I found some expired milk in my fridge, so I took it and threw it at a cow for making it.

  25. #25
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    On the next episode of "When Threads Go Wrong":

    Quote Originally Posted by Sizzler View Post
    I get what the OP is saying. It's just like the other day when I found some expired milk in my fridge, so I took it and threw it at a cow for making it.
    All good things in all good time

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by berkeley mike View Post
    chris kings has no responsibility in this; it is between you and the shop. But, and perhaps more importantly, i don't know why this is problem. I have these "old" headsets on 4 bikes and have for years.
    exactly!
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  27. #27
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    I got hit by a Blue Hair once. I still think Oldsmobiles suck.

  28. #28
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    This is like trying to get grass to grow out of a rock. No matter how much you water it your still stuck with a rock.

    O <<< OP's head, yep looks like a rock to me. Let's keep watering it with THE SAME OPINION and see if grass grows.
    Last edited by DIRTJUNKIE; 03-24-2013 at 02:52 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by NDD View Post
    Dude, I'm in Illinois. The only place anyone would come from that would say this area is hilly is Kansas.

  29. #29
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    Two pages on this - really?!

    Cheers

    Danny B

  30. #30
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    Re: Not too impressed with Chris King c.s.

    I bought a pontiac from a local dealership... Got it home only to realize it was the older version of the engine. I called pontiac so they could fix it and they told me to pound sand.... They suck!

  31. #31
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    Yep. Keeping the headset. Was pissed when I made the post, not so much now. Some of the responses were pretty funny. Others, not so much. It'll be fine as-is, but I ordered the upgrade anyway.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by aedubber View Post
    I keep my anger/frustration in the gym while I lift and train on a heavy bag
    Holy Jesus, I just laughed out loud.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    Holy Jesus, I just laughed out loud.
    Lol need to promote a healthy way to keep e violence down !

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    This is like trying to get grass to grow out of a rock. No matter how much you water it your still stuck with a rock.

    O <<< OP's head, yep looks like a rock to me. Let's keep watering it with THE SAME OPINION and see if grass grows.
    What? It's rare when we reach a consensus on something. This should be celebrated...with a party of some kind. My treat. Send the tab to CHUM.

  35. #35
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    Bastard cows

    Quote Originally Posted by Sizzler View Post
    I get what the OP is saying. It's just like the other day when I found some expired milk in my fridge, so I took it and threw it at a cow for making it.
    :wq

  36. #36
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    Not too impressed with Chris King c.s.

    Quote Originally Posted by nachomc View Post
    Bastard cows
    Clearly not "Happy California Cows".


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  37. #37
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    Not too impressed with Chris King c.s.

    Quote Originally Posted by ugapug View Post
    Oh, you've hurt my feelings. Punk ass *****.
    Who's the punk ass *****? 38 responses to your whiney post, not a single one agreeing with you. Everybody telling you to man up and grow up. Do it.

    Not too impressed with Chris King c.s.-imageuploadedbytapatalk1364001291.051654.jpg


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    Quote Originally Posted by Sizzler View Post
    I get what the OP is saying. It's just like the other day when I found some expired milk in my fridge, so I took it and threw it at a cow for making it.
    Makes this thread worth it LOL

  39. #39
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    I'm going to start by saying that I've had a CK HS with the O ring cap in service on 3 different bikes since 2000 and it works fine but I can understand you want the newer version, I would too. Your beef should be with the shop and not CK...did you actually expect them to provide you with an upgrade at no cost?? And you actually drove 100 miles to buy something and didn't look at it before you left the store, you just ASSUMED it was what you wanted? Another thing about making a 200 mile trip, they have this thing called on-line parts ordering...and shipping costs are a whole lot cheaper then gas these days!

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by ugapug View Post
    Yep. Keeping the headset. Was pissed when I made the post, not so much now. Some of the responses were pretty funny. Others, not so much. It'll be fine as-is, but I ordered the upgrade anyway.
    Live and learn...to examine your stuff before you leave the store, never assume. Heck, the upgrade prolly cost you less then 200mi worth of gas

  41. #41
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    CK has definitely been arrogant at times with their CS, blaming known problems and flaws on the customer, such as the HS debacle, hub spacing, and others. They absolutely denied there was any problem with their headsets, blamed the loosening, wobble, scoring of steerers, etc. on installation and the user, then told them to buy a new o-ring. Then when the aheadset patent runs out, they flock to the design and all of a sudden are producing what everyone else has been making for 20 years. Higher leverage forks like 4+ of travel and 29er forks that are longer really brought this to the forefront, but the attitude of CK was pretty poor.

    None of that really impacts your purchase though, I mean you bought from a company that was KNOWN to have these kinds of attitudes. The blamed the user for the problems with their products, they sure as hell aren't going to give out free compression-ring upgrades. The way I would have avoided it would be to buy a quality headset. Many companies make them. It's not a very complicated part that requires high end engineering. The bearings are under low load compared to things like the cranks/bb, a simple split-ring design keeps preload on the bearings, a few rubber seals, and you are done. Nicer ones can use angular contact bearings like FSA an CK, but not really necessary. Plenty of good ones that will last year after year.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Higher leverage forks like 4+ of travel and 29er forks that are longer really brought this to the forefront

    The way I would have avoided it would be to buy a quality headset.
    It brought this to the forefront with all HS makers. Not just CK. That's why the tapered design was invented.

    Buy a quality headset! That's effing hilarious! You're talking about a man that makes surgical instruments and a company that is widely known for having among the best manufacturing and quality control in the bike business.

  43. #43
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    The old compression assembly did not work well in a frame that has not been properly prepped (faced, reamed and chamfered). Half of the dozen shops I've worked at do not have these tools. Very few headsets require such attention to detail and many shops do not prep frames prior to assembly, because very few frames/components require it. I often ran a split compression wedge stolen from a sealed fsa headset on my old school ck; A bit of filing and some care and you could completely obscure the modification and have a clunk free headset without prepping your frame. Regardless one of my CKs on a fully prepped frame sheared off both cups over time, just like happened with my non-prepped frames (CK said the lack of prepping caused the failure, but now I know that it happens even if you do properly prep the frame).

    I'm curious if the OP ever saw the headset, held it in hand, prior to purchasing. If not, then I think this is a reasonable learning experience at a relatively low cost to the buyer.

    If the OP brought the headset home and installed it himself, then in my opinion, there's no turning back. If the headset has never been installed, then returning it shouldn't be a problem; hopefully you paid with a credit card.

    If the shop installed the headset and you only discovered this issue afterwards, I think you have a good case that the shop was not sufficiently transparent about selling you a NOS part. The same thing happens with, say, shimano r. derailleurs that are updated every few years. It would be misleading for you to drop your bike off and request a new xt r. der and get a NOS xt r. der. However if the shop hands you the part and the employee says, "here's a new xt r. der. Do you want to buy it and have it installed", then it's a bit fuzzy, but overall I would say its the shops responsibility to educate you about what exactly they are trying to sell you.

    Overall, I would say that if the headset was presented as new and installed by the shop, they should remedy the issue by eating the cost of the new compression assembly. If you took it home and installed it yourself, it's too late for anything other than asking for the shop to put on a show of goodwill, knowing that it's reasonable for them to say no.

    A bit more info would be useful for me to make what I think is a reasonable suggestion for who bears the costs of this mistake. Regardless, if you payed with a credit card, you're protected and all you need to do is make give the shop a reasonable chance to remedy the problem prior to contesting the charge. The credit card company will research the problem and either pay the shop or not, but you'll pay nothing; at least that's how my visa card works.

  44. #44
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    Sold as new. I haven't installed it. Honestly, the mileage to take it back isn't worth the hassle. I won't be buying anything else from the shop. Probably going to install it this weekend and put the compression cap on later.

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    hey dude here's what you do, send it to me and i'll take care of the whole problem ok.

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    It brought this to the forefront with all HS makers. Not just CK. That's why the tapered design was invented.

    Buy a quality headset! That's effing hilarious! You're talking about a man that makes surgical instruments and a company that is widely known for having among the best manufacturing and quality control in the bike business.
    Um, no, not even close. The problem with using an "o-ring" to keep preload on bearings is that it's soft and when your front wheel hits something, it obviously "gives" and compresses. It allows for the star fangled nut to be jammed up just a bit and will cause the headset to loosen. With no o-ring and a split-ring compression wedge, a normal headset does not have a part that "compresses" when the fork encounters something other than the smooth trail, and it the force is never transferred to a part that can work it's way loose.

    It's funny that to this day there are people that don't understand it.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by PretendGentleman View Post
    The old compression assembly did not work well in a frame that has not been properly prepped (faced, reamed and chamfered). Half of the dozen shops I've worked at do not have these tools. Very few headsets require such attention to detail and many shops do not prep frames prior to assembly, because very few frames/components require it. I often ran a split compression wedge stolen from a sealed fsa headset on my old school ck
    "It's not the design, but I run the better design myself"? The shop I worked in had these tools, they are big, expensive, and heavy, but it doesn't matter. No matter how well you "prep" the headset, it won't keep a part that can compress from changing shape under impacts and allowing movement. Just a bad design.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  48. #48
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    The only thing I can say is: I've had at least 6 of these headsets on various bikes. And, I switch headsets around a lot, all on the type of bikes these headsets were designed for, all torqued properly, with good head tubes and steerer tubes. And, I've never had one come loose or had any other problem with them. They've been the most trouble free part I have ever owned. I have one from 1996, that gets regular use, and its still going strong. The only thing I do to it is clean it, when it gets switched to a different bike.

  49. #49
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    Great, and you do get kudos for having a Dino! One of the best body shapes ever IMO.

    A flawed product is a flawed product though. This was a pretty obvious and matter-of-fact deal and easily proven. It wasn't so much that CK designed something that couldn't deal with the evolution of the sport, it's that they took the low-road and blamed the user and then turned right back around when the patent ran out. I don't care if they make B2 bombers or cheap tools for walmart, the customer service and ethics aspect was pretty lame. I remember turner had some issues with chainstays on highlines, but they didn't say "you are doing it wrong" and then make them buy new chainstays when they updated the design, they gave the owners new redesigned chainstays because they messed up. I even messed up by running too long of a seatpost (with plenty of insertion, but too long of a seatpost is always a longer lever) and they did a lot more than they should have, with a new mainframe and rockers. I don't have a problem with CK updating the design and even charging for it, but given the way they handled it with the blame and total denial of the problem, they don't make my "good list" of companies that I like to deal with and will fix any problems they may make.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Um, no, not even close. The problem with using an "o-ring" to keep preload on bearings is that it's soft and when your front wheel hits something, it obviously "gives" and compresses. It allows for the star fangled nut to be jammed up just a bit and will cause the headset to loosen. With no o-ring and a split-ring compression wedge, a normal headset does not have a part that "compresses" when the fork encounters something other than the smooth trail, and it the force is never transferred to a part that can work it's way loose.
    Nope. The o-ring is to keep the top race from contacting the steer tube of the fork under lateral loads. Most of the time it works, but under heavy braking on rough terrain the various parts will flex enough for contact to happen, and that's how the steer tube gets scored. I have an old fork with the marks to prove it, it was installed on a bike with a King headset for a bit over 10 years.

    That is the downside of the old CK system, it allows the fork steerer to move against the top race plus it requires precise preperation of the frame prior to installation. This was generally not a problem in the old days when forks only had 3-4 inches of travel and ran 26" wheels, if the frame was prep'd well you'd likely be on your next fork well before the steerer was significantly damaged. With longer travel forks and bigger wheels it's now a much more serious problem, which is why CK now has the griplock system to lock the top race to the fork steerer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aerius View Post
    Nope. The o-ring is to keep the top race from contacting the steer tube of the fork under lateral loads. Most of the time it works, but under heavy braking on rough terrain the various parts will flex enough for contact to happen, and that's how the steer tube gets scored.
    Dude, that's the same as what I just said. The o-ring can't and doesn't preload the bearings, I'm just using that term because that's CKs supposition, that it will somehow magically keep the system from moving.
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    aerius is correct.
    whatever...

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    Nothing to do with CK, if you have an issue with old stock, take it up with the shop. Nothing wrong with it, worked for years. The customer should do their homework and the shop doesn't have to put the year on every part in the shop. If you came in and said "I want the latest version of the CK headset." and the shop sold you this, be pissed, otherwise, suck it up.
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    Yeah. I get the consensus. You can continue to leave snarky comments if you want, won't be coming back into the thread. I just wish I was perfect like the rest of you and thought to examine parts sold as new with an electron microscope. At any rate it's on the bike and working fine.

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    It has taken CK CS over a week to respond to a problem I am having with my bb. I find that to be a little long, but I will have to see what their course of action is with said bb before I cast judgment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ugapug View Post
    Yeah. I get the consensus. You can continue to leave snarky comments if you want, won't be coming back into the thread. I just wish I was perfect like the rest of you and thought to examine parts sold as new with an electron microscope. At any rate it's on the bike and working fine.
    It was sold as new because..well...it was new....
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    ^^^New and New Old Stock do not imply the same value to the consumer. It is at the very least debatable whether or not it is legitimate to call an older version of a product NEW or NOS.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonshonda View Post
    It has taken CK CS over a week to respond to a problem I am having with my bb. I find that to be a little long, but I will have to see what their course of action is with said bb before I cast judgment.
    You might try going through a shop, though this will work better if you bought it at the shop. This has been said many times, but most companies prefer that consumers go through a dealer. Many companies do their warranties through a distributor who in turn deals with the dealer.

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    Yep, and often times the shop won't mark it down at all because they want to get their profit-margin, even if it's been sitting on the shelf for years, which makes it seem all the more ridiculous and may deceive the consumer into thinking it's brand-new, especially if it's a product that doesn't have much physical change from year to year. Kind of crappy to not mark it down some, but I've seen this often.
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    As a side note I'd like to see if anyone else agrees with this observation from spending many years in the bike business:
    A company's CS and warranty coverage is inversely proportional to overall quality and reliability of their product.

  60. #60
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    I like my CK headset, but I am very glad I did the upgrade. I was running a rigid steel fork with the O ring cap for 3 years and even that had a tiny mark in it. The headset came loose in the middle of a race because the star fangled nut couldn't get good purchase on the inside of the steel steerer.

    I got a Manitou Tower Expert last year and decided then and there get the update, as I didn't want to score the aluminum steerer. I changed it over and it's pretty scary to look at the old top piece and notice all the anodizing worn off the top face and above and below where the O ring sits.

    The original design is really bad engineering. I wonder if Cane Creek refuse to license their design to CK?

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    Quote Originally Posted by girlonbike View Post
    What? It's rare when we reach a consensus on something. This should be celebrated...with a party of some kind. My treat. Send the tab to CHUM.
    Count me in girl.... CHUM you good with this?
    Quote Originally Posted by NDD View Post
    Dude, I'm in Illinois. The only place anyone would come from that would say this area is hilly is Kansas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Yep, and often times the shop won't mark it down at all because they want to get their profit-margin, even if it's been sitting on the shelf for years, which makes it seem all the more ridiculous and may deceive the consumer into thinking it's brand-new, especially if it's a product that doesn't have much physical change from year to year. Kind of crappy to not mark it down some, but I've seen this often.
    Because honestly, most people don't know or care if it is a 2013 or 2010 model...its still unused meaning...NEW! For the more discerning customer, yes, this matters...I certainly don't want to pay full price for a 2010 model whatever if I can get a 2013 model for the same price, but I would know this going into the deal.
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    In the end of the day, CK lost a future customer and potentially others as well, for the price of top cap. Something tells me they were a bit arrogant about it as well. Think what you want, but whenever a customer walks away unhappy, that is bad CS.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dru View Post
    I like my CK headset, but I am very glad I did the upgrade. I was running a rigid steel fork with the O ring cap for 3 years and even that had a tiny mark in it. The headset came loose in the middle of a race because the star fangled nut couldn't get good purchase on the inside of the steel steerer.
    .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ....................Drew
    I have seen others say this too, but I am not sure I understand.

    If the stem is tight, how does the load get transferred to the star nut? The stem would have to slide up on the steerer tube for the top cap to see a load and pull against the start nut. The stem would have to move to allow for the loss of pre-load.

    Contrary to what has been posted here, the o-ring purpose was not to keep pre-load on the bearings. It was to keep the headset upper cap from making contact with the steerer tube, and offer some sealing. I fully understand the movement that was taking place there, why and how it was happening and all that. Not really a great design and all that. Got it. But this doesn't explain the star nut seeing loads and pulling out.

    What am I missing?
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    Yeah, I know. The only thing I can think of was the OTB crash I took about 15 minutes into the opening lap. Maybe the force of crashing worked the stem up a bit. I noticed the HS being loose about an hour into the race. When I tightened down the HS later on, I was aware that the starfangled nut was slipping upwards if I tried to put too much preload on the bearings.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 11 Bravo View Post
    I have seen others say this too, but I am not sure I understand.

    If the stem is tight, how does the load get transferred to the star nut? The stem would have to slide up on the steerer tube for the top cap to see a load and pull against the start nut. The stem would have to move to allow for the loss of pre-load.

    Contrary to what has been posted here, the o-ring purpose was not to keep pre-load on the bearings. It was to keep the headset upper cap from making contact with the steerer tube, and offer some sealing. I fully understand the movement that was taking place there, why and how it was happening and all that. Not really a great design and all that. Got it. But this doesn't explain the star nut seeing loads and pulling out.

    What am I missing?
    Have you ever tried to run a bike without a top-cap? You'd think it works right? And some people do this on races for a very short time, but overall, it just doesn't work. Even though it's "clamped" on there, the way the forces propagate will cause loosening and play, it may be on there tight, but not having that additional pressure allows it to shift and work it's way loose. Similar to not having that scuff-washer (o-ring), although not same thing obviously. That preload makes a pretty big difference though.

    Think about it, the steerer will be able to move closer to one side of the headtube. Now, the distance between the top of your top-cap and the bottom of your stem and spacers has to be ever so slightly larger, to take up the slack, else the star fangled nut will be yanked up slightly, which is what happens. The stem is relatively solid up against the top cap and headset. It's trying to bend the steerer inside of there and shift it a little bit sideways when the stem is trying to keep it in the same spot. It's not much movement, not enough to even notice likely by looking inside the steerer, but enough to cause play and loosening.

    OR, just loosen your stem and top cap and rock your bike back and forth. Notice the bolt in the top cap moving around. Simple way to prove it. Anything that allows the steerer to "rock" will do this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dru View Post

    The original design is really bad engineering. I wonder if Cane Creek refuse to license their design to CK?

    Drew
    Nope. First called the "aheadset", I think Dia Comp owned the standard, they evolved and eventually the company became known as Cane Creek. For a while they ran two different product lines, one low and one high end I think. It's been a while since I tried to recall. They let any and everyone who wanted to license it. They just had to pay the license fee, which I'm sure wasn't very significant due to the inexpensive headsets out there from WTB, FSA and others. In addition to those, Shimano made headsets, pretty much any OEM, lots of smaller companies made headsets, phil wood and others I believe. There were literally dozens to choose from. Virtually everyone used the patent, and when it ran out, then CK started using the same design. Most think it was due to simply not being able to admit they designed something incorrectly or poorly, so they were going to hold out and wait until it expired. Just the fact that they blamed it on the user and "installation" should tell you enough. Doesn't take much to realize that they were just too arrogant.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    In the end of the day, CK lost a future customer and potentially others as well, for the price of top cap. Something tells me they were a bit arrogant about it as well. Think what you want, but whenever a customer walks away unhappy, that is bad CS.
    I tend to disagree with this.

    Chris King never offered a free upgrade to owners of the old style headset. It was never recalled, determined to be unsafe or anything else that would make the update mandatory. I really don't see why Chris King would be obligated to give a customer a free upgrade kit if there was no defect in materials or workmanship with the part the customer bought. This whole thing is between the bike shop and the customer.

    Chris King can't just give products away because somebody calls up and says " I bought this old style headset and I don't want it". Why stop at a free upgrade? Why shouldn't Chris King give this guy a full refund? Why shouldn't they be required to send him out a new headset? If they did those things they may have a bunch of happy people, but they wouldn't be in business very long.

    I have a friend that ordered the wrong headset for his new frame with a tapered head tube. He called Chris King to figure out what was wrong and learned he had the wrong headset. They gave him the correct part number for the one he needed, but was it their fault he got the wrong one? Should they have covered the return shipping when my buddy returned the wrong one to get the correct one? Should they have sent him out the correct one at no charge?

    There are times when you just can't make a customer happy. That doesn't necessarily mean that the customer service was bad. Every company out there has to watch out for their bottom line and balance that against everything else. Sure, giving this guy the upgrade kit wouldn't cause Chris King to go broke. But when word gets around that you can get the upgrade for free if you squirt a few tears, and 5 thousand people call up and want one, then you are talking some money. After all, why would a old style headset that has never been installed be any different than the ones I have in my bike? I am still a customer with an old style headset. And if you want to have a bunch of unhappy customers, start giving the stuff away and then stop, or give it to some and not others.

    I have talked to the customer service people at King a few times and they were always nice to deal with. I really doubt they were arrogant about it, they probably just gave the guy an answer he didn't want to accept.
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  69. #69
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    There is a difference between customer service and losing money .. Its a business , you cant give things away for free for no reason . I own a business and there are things you can provide the customer with and things you just cant . I guess you people that want free sh*t from a company cuz its " customer service " are probably the same people that think the customer is always right lol .

    The LBS should of said hey this is a year/model X Y Z . I would of gone back to the place and said hey you sold me X and i thought i was paying for Y , so can we work something out so i can get Z . Thank you , done deal ...

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    If the stem was moving at all, the bars would not remain straight either. Your explanation does not explain a headset becoming noticeably loose over the course of a race either. That is generally a fairly short time in relation to all the training and other riding someone who races does. Your explanation would have looseness occurring gradually over time.

    If your explanation was correct, this would be a fairly common thing and people would be constantly adjusting pre-load on the old style King headsets. I have run 6 of the old style headsets and never had it happen. I don't know anyone who has had it happen and don't see much reference to it happening. I rode with a guy for a couple of summers that didn't have a top cap on his bike and he never had anything come loose. The bolt through the top cap sets the pre-load. The clamping force of the stem to the steerer tube holds everything together.

    We will just have to agree to disagree about this.
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  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by 11 Bravo View Post
    I tend to disagree with this.

    Chris King never offered a free upgrade to owners of the old style headset. It was never recalled, determined to be unsafe or anything else that would make the update mandatory. I really don't see why Chris King would be obligated to give a customer a free upgrade kit if there was no defect in materials or workmanship with the part the customer bought. This whole thing is between the bike shop and the customer.

    Chris King can't just give products away because somebody calls up and says " I bought this old style headset and I don't want it". Why stop at a free upgrade? Why shouldn't Chris King give this guy a full refund? Why shouldn't they be required to send him out a new headset? If they did those things they may have a bunch of happy people, but they wouldn't be in business very long.

    I have a friend that ordered the wrong headset for his new frame with a tapered head tube. He called Chris King to figure out what was wrong and learned he had the wrong headset. They gave him the correct part number for the one he needed, but was it their fault he got the wrong one? Should they have covered the return shipping when my buddy returned the wrong one to get the correct one? Should they have sent him out the correct one at no charge?

    There are times when you just can't make a customer happy. That doesn't necessarily mean that the customer service was bad. Every company out there has to watch out for their bottom line and balance that against everything else. Sure, giving this guy the upgrade kit wouldn't cause Chris King to go broke. But when word gets around that you can get the upgrade for free if you squirt a few tears, and 5 thousand people call up and want one, then you are talking some money. After all, why would a old style headset that has never been installed be any different than the ones I have in my bike? I am still a customer with an old style headset. And if you want to have a bunch of unhappy customers, start giving the stuff away and then stop, or give it to some and not others.

    I have talked to the customer service people at King a few times and they were always nice to deal with. I really doubt they were arrogant about it, they probably just gave the guy an answer he didn't want to accept.
    +1

    Quote Originally Posted by aedubber View Post
    There is a difference between customer service and losing money .. Its a business , you cant give things away for free for no reason . I own a business and there are things you can provide the customer with and things you just cant . I guess you people that want free sh*t from a company cuz its " customer service " are probably the same people that think the customer is always right lol .

    The LBS should of said hey this is a year/model X Y Z . I would of gone back to the place and said hey you sold me X and i thought i was paying for Y , so can we work something out so i can get Z . Thank you , done deal ...
    +1 Except the LBS was probably to stupid to know any better.

    Quote Originally Posted by 11 Bravo View Post
    If the stem was moving at all, the bars would not remain straight either. Your explanation does not explain a headset becoming noticeably loose over the course of a race either. That is generally a fairly short time in relation to all the training and other riding someone who races does. Your explanation would have looseness occurring gradually over time.

    If your explanation was correct, this would be a fairly common thing and people would be constantly adjusting pre-load on the old style King headsets. I have run 6 of the old style headsets and never had it happen. I don't know anyone who has had it happen and don't see much reference to it happening. I rode with a guy for a couple of summers that didn't have a top cap on his bike and he never had anything come loose. The bolt through the top cap sets the pre-load. The clamping force of the stem to the steerer tube holds everything together.

    We will just have to agree to disagree about this.
    +1 if your head tube and steerer are in proper condition and everything is put together correctly and torqued properly, these headsets are the most bomb proof part in the industry. I mean 400 reviews and a score of over 4.8 is pretty damn good.

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by 11 Bravo View Post
    If the stem was moving at all, the bars would not remain straight either. Your explanation does not explain a headset becoming noticeably loose over the course of a race either. That is generally a fairly short time in relation to all the training and other riding someone who races does. Your explanation would have looseness occurring gradually over time.
    Have you ever tried removing the headset cap? I highly suggest this. Go do a few rides with it like this. No, your bars will not move or rotate. Yes, the star nut and stem will be "worked" just a little, enough to start getting some play in the headset.

    It's a good test. Not as effective with a compression-ring headset, but you will get some play and loosening in there with a couple rides just the same.

    I know you said you've "had a friend who...", but I've actually tried this. I recommend you do too and let me know. Generally the CK doesn't come loose right away or in the course of one run, it's over a few rides at least, or a few runs at a DH resort at the quickest, but it's not super-fast, its noticing all of a sudden on very smooth ground that you're getting a lot of impacts to the handlebars and "something isn't right", all of a sudden you're able to feel some play. Like most headset loosening, the onset isn't immediate or very noticeable.

    Based on your analysis, there'd be no need for a headset cap and bolt in the first place, as we could use it as a "tool" then put in in our toolbox. It's there for a reason though...

    Of course, it wasn't a "common thing" when we had 2-3" travel forks on 26" bikes. As we went to forks like the Z150 and then 3" 29er forks with at least the same axle-to-crown, it started to get much more pronounced.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  73. #73
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    ^ Why would you want to ride your bike without the cap? That's just stupid!

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    Quote Originally Posted by aedubber View Post
    There is a difference between customer service and losing money .. Its a business , you cant give things away for free for no reason . I own a business and there are things you can provide the customer with and things you just cant . I guess you people that want free sh*t from a company cuz its " customer service " are probably the same people that think the customer is always right lol .

    The LBS should of said hey this is a year/model X Y Z . I would of gone back to the place and said hey you sold me X and i thought i was paying for Y , so can we work something out so i can get Z . Thank you , done deal ...
    That's it, well said. What I would have done.
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    Well I don't really want to start any arguments with you. Again, we don't agree on this and that is cool. Just a couple of points and then I will leave the subject alone.

    I didn't have a friend who rode without a top cap. I said I rode with a guy who didn't have one. Subtle difference, but I didn't really know the guy. He was just a guy I ran into on some group rides. I have no idea why anyone would run that way and I wouldn't advocate doing it. The guy was just one of those guys that was pretty funny, didn't seem to take anything seriously, and didn't really seem to care much about equipment as long as it worked. He probably got the bike that way, rode it until it had a problem and then got another one. I really don't know except that he didn't seem to have any trouble riding that way. Again, I wouldn't suggest it and don't think it would be good to do. Probably not a good example anyway since that riding didn't involve any aggressive stuff.

    When you consider the surface area inside the stem to steerer contact, then compare that to the surface area of the compression ring to steerer contact, you can see why it is hard to accept that the compression ring would prevent the movement you are saying happens to the stem.

    Can a stem take an impact and slip? Sure, I will concede that point. Everyone has seen a crash where the bars ended up turned. What I don't see happening is the impact of normal riding driving the stem up and pulling the star nut up on the steerer, provided everything is assembled correctly. Long travel forks have been around for a while. I have been running over 140mm for about 10 years. Again, I don't see this problem in my stuff and haven't seen much reference to it. If there was some design problem in the headset that allowed it to happen I think it would be more wide spread. Seems much more reasonable to me that people having this happen don't have good assembly of their stuff.

    Like I said, we can agree to disagree. I will anyway.

    Cheers
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Have you ever tried removing the headset cap? I highly suggest this. Go do a few rides with it like this. No, your bars will not move or rotate. Yes, the star nut and stem will be "worked" just a little, enough to start getting some play in the headset.

    It's a good test. Not as effective with a compression-ring headset, but you will get some play and loosening in there with a couple rides just the same.
    Actually, I have done that. I snapped one of the seatpost bolts in the middle of a vacation and stole the topcap bolt to replace it. I rode for over a week without a topcap on my old style CK headset, did dozens of DH shuttle runs, dirt jumped the bike, hit a 4-cross track, and hucked a bunch of drops. The headset stayed in perfect adjustment the whole time.

  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Have you ever tried removing the headset cap? I highly suggest this. Go do a few rides with it like this. No, your bars will not move or rotate. Yes, the star nut and stem will be "worked" just a little, enough to start getting some play in the headset.

    It's a good test. Not as effective with a compression-ring headset, but you will get some play and loosening in there with a couple rides just the same.

    I know you said you've "had a friend who...", but I've actually tried this. I recommend you do too and let me know. Generally the CK doesn't come loose right away or in the course of one run, it's over a few rides at least, or a few runs at a DH resort at the quickest, but it's not super-fast, its noticing all of a sudden on very smooth ground that you're getting a lot of impacts to the handlebars and "something isn't right", all of a sudden you're able to feel some play. Like most headset loosening, the onset isn't immediate or very noticeable.

    Based on your analysis, there'd be no need for a headset cap and bolt in the first place, as we could use it as a "tool" then put in in our toolbox. It's there for a reason though...

    Of course, it wasn't a "common thing" when we had 2-3" travel forks on 26" bikes. As we went to forks like the Z150 and then 3" 29er forks with at least the same axle-to-crown, it started to get much more pronounced.
    I've seen bmx riders go months without a top cap. Pro Street bmx puts a lot more stress on a frame, fork and headset than most mtbing, as people do crazy stuff with super stiff wheels, high pressure tires, etc.. Perhaps the lightweight craze in mtbing and all the recent recommendations to use a torque wrench with every part help explain variable results when trying to go without a top cap or using a star nut with a 44mm headtube frame (which ck recommends against due to slipping)

    If you have a good thick steel steerer tube and a fairly traditional stem, I feel pretty confident saying you can definitely tighten it enough to prevent any gradual loosening of the headset. If you have crabon or aluminum steerer or crabon stem and you torque bolts just enough... perhaps the top cap is vital to maintaining headset adjustment.

  78. #78
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    I think we need at least one more page discussing this topic.

  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by aedubber View Post
    There is a difference between customer service and losing money .. Its a business , you cant give things away for free for no reason . I own a business and there are things you can provide the customer with and things you just cant . I guess you people that want free sh*t from a company cuz its " customer service " are probably the same people that think the customer is always right lol .

    The LBS should of said hey this is a year/model X Y Z . I would of gone back to the place and said hey you sold me X and i thought i was paying for Y , so can we work something out so i can get Z . Thank you , done deal ...
    I agree with this 100%. However, you always want to leave the customer feeling happy. If the part in question is pennies, and is a fix for a poor design, they should have probably given it away. At the least, CK should have reassured the customer that what he has is great and will do the job he is looking for.

    Not saying the OP is right or wrong but it looks like his conversation with CK left him with a sour taste, and that is bad CS.
    On MTBR, the reputation is infamous.

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    So if someone doesnt like what you have to say or they disagree its bad CS? Lol you do know in business you can't satisfy every customer and thats a fact . Not everyone will agree they feel they got the proper CS and thats how this thread came up .

    So if K&N sold X filters to their dealers in 2009 and then they sold upgraded or a different style filter in 2013 you think they should be accountable and give you something free cuz one of their dealers sold a customer an older style product or was misinformed ? You take it up with the shop that sold you the product not the actual company. The job of CK is to pump out quality products and cover their warranty and replace as needed per warranty guidelines not give away free stuff. Customer service should be dealt with the LBS .

  81. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by aedubber View Post
    So if someone doesnt like what you have to say or they disagree its bad CS? Lol you do know in business you can't satisfy every customer and thats a fact . Not everyone will agree they feel they got the proper CS and thats how this thread came up .

    So if K&N sold X filters to their dealers in 2009 and then they sold upgraded or a different style filter in 2013 you think they should be accountable and give you something free cuz one of their dealers sold a customer an older style product or was misinformed ? You take it up with the shop that sold you the product not the actual company. The job of CK is to pump out quality products and cover their warranty and replace as needed per warranty guidelines not give away free stuff. Customer service should be dealt with the LBS .


    *please please please let him work for K&N* - I need a new filter for my truck.........

  82. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by aedubber View Post
    The job of CK is to pump out quality products and cover their warranty and replace as needed per warranty guidelines.
    And, CK does this as good as any company and they do it better then most!

  83. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by aedubber View Post
    So if someone doesnt like what you have to say or they disagree its bad CS? Lol you do know in business you can't satisfy every customer and thats a fact . Not everyone will agree they feel they got the proper CS and thats how this thread came up .

    So if K&N sold X filters to their dealers in 2009 and then they sold upgraded or a different style filter in 2013 you think they should be accountable and give you something free cuz one of their dealers sold a customer an older style product or was misinformed ? You take it up with the shop that sold you the product not the actual company. The job of CK is to pump out quality products and cover their warranty and replace as needed per warranty guidelines not give away free stuff. Customer service should be dealt with the LBS .
    Not really the same thing. This would be like a flawed structural part like steering bushings or end-links that get loose over time because they were designed improperly. Not everyone may experience it, but they tell everyone that has the problem it's their own fault somehow, then the next year they come out with a new design that solves the problem.

    Air filters doesn't really make a good comparison. Not a very critical part, and hard to have a design flaw in the same way.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  84. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Not really the same thing. This would be like a flawed structural part like steering bushings or end-links that get loose over time because they were designed improperly. Not everyone may experience it, but they tell everyone that has the problem it's their own fault somehow, then the next year they come out with a new design that solves the problem.

    Air filters doesn't really make a good comparison. Not a very critical part, and hard to have a design flaw in the same way.
    Where did i say i was comparing the two ? I was just using it as an example of how customer service is being looked at. The OP was pissed cuz he was sold an older style part from his LBS , and is trying to blame CK directly . Where in the world did he buy the part , install it , have something go wrong , and then complain ? I dont know if your reading the same thread as everyone else here or your just trying to justify something that has nothing to do with the OPs post .

    Air filter is not critical ? You sure about that? I mean if you dont have a free flowing filter you could ruin your gas mileage , and also mess up your MAF sensor as well which would either run your vehicle rich or lean . Running your vehicle too lean can cause a failed motor , running too rich will flood your plugs and a chance of messing up your o rings and seals . Air / Fuel / and Ignition are the most crucial part of a motor but we are not here to discuss that so lets stay on topic please. You must not know much about vehicles but then again as a hobby a had a garage tearing down motors and building them up and tuning my own vehicles .. so what do i know about a " stupid " air filter...

    Also , what your saying is pretty much like saying when frames crack/break its a design flaw then ? As people have said before , they have had no issues running this older style HS and some have but we could say that with EVERYTHING ?

  85. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Not really the same thing. This would be like a flawed structural part like steering bushings or end-links that get loose over time because they were designed improperly. Not everyone may experience it, but they tell everyone that has the problem it's their own fault somehow, then the next year they come out with a new design that solves the problem.


    Air filters doesn't really make a good comparison. Not a very critical part, and hard to have a design flaw in the same way.



    ^ Not a very critical part? Have you ever seen an air filter after a weekend of off roading. The first K&N filter that I purchased for my Mini had round voids in the rubber on the sides, like the mold developed bubbles in it. It had a lot of them and one would think that QC would have caught it. It couldn't be used, because it would let dirty air around the sides. The place I purchased it replaced it for me. I didn't go to K&N asking for a replacement.

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    a shop selling a new component shouldn't give you a 3 year old model unless they let you know.

  87. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    ^ Not a very critical part? Have you ever seen an air filter after a weekend of off roading. The first K&N filter that I purchased for my Mini had round voids in the rubber on the sides, like the mold developed bubbles in it. It had a lot of them and one would think that QC would have caught it. It couldn't be used, because it would let dirty air around the sides. The place I purchased it replaced it for me. I didn't go to K&N asking for a replacement.
    Dear god, if it has holes in it I'd sure hope that K&N would take it back if asked. I thought it would be pretty hard to screw up an air filter, but I guess they've found out how to do it?

    On a related note, people still buy K&N air filters? lol...
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  88. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by aedubber View Post

    Also , what your saying is pretty much like saying when frames crack/break its a design flaw then ? As people have said before , they have had no issues running this older style HS and some have but we could say that with EVERYTHING ?
    Um, yes, when some frames break, it IS due to design flaws. Not all the time and some are abused, but I can point out numerous examples of known design flaws in frames if you need. As people have said, there are plenty of issues running this older style HS. Do some searches and find out for yourself. A flawed product is a flawed product.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  89. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Um, yes, when some frames break, it IS due to design flaws. Not all the time and some are abused, but I can point out numerous examples of known design flaws in frames if you need. As people have said, there are plenty of issues running this older style HS. Do some searches and find out for yourself. A flawed product is a flawed product.
    Okay and plenty of people have not had issues so that makes your argument void .

    As for frames , is a bike not supposed to be abused ? I dont know what kind of riding you do but i beat the **** out of my bikes and i actually ride my bikes . Sometimes you may have a perfect design but " accidents " do happen on non flawed designs as well .

    Jayem - What i want to know is what does YOUR point of arguing have anything to do with the OP post tho ? Hes not complaining about buying a HS and then having it malfunction or break on him due to a flawed design . You have been persistant on ripping on CK , putting them down , and talkin **** on here but yet i dont see you producing these parts ? Nor do i see you actually contributing to the OPs post , you just might be trolling and lashing out at CK from maybe jealousy or just hate , you pick .

  90. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by aedubber View Post
    Okay and plenty of people have not had issues so that makes your argument void .

    As for frames , is a bike not supposed to be abused ? I dont know what kind of riding you do but i beat the **** out of my bikes and i actually ride my bikes . Sometimes you may have a perfect design but " accidents " do happen on non flawed designs as well .

    Jayem - What i want to know is what does YOUR point of arguing have anything to do with the OP post tho ? Hes not complaining about buying a HS and then having it malfunction or break on him due to a flawed design . You have been persistant on ripping on CK , putting them down , and talkin **** on here but yet i dont see you producing these parts ? Nor do i see you actually contributing to the OPs post , you just might be trolling and lashing out at CK from maybe jealousy or just hate , you pick .
    The reason the OP posted was due to not getting the compression ring, which IS what we've been talking about, why it's important, etc.

    You don't by chance work for CK do you?

    Let me ask you this, when they do an auto-recall, should you replace the part even if you haven't had a problem yet? Most of the time it's not 100% of the people that have an issue, with accelerators sticking, or fuel pumps exploding, or whatever, but it's enough to see that it's not just random luck and use, it's an actual issue most of the time. Sorry that I've worked in a shop and seen/dealt with this problem. Sorry that you can't admit it, but like I said, go back and search MTBR, there are plenty of posts about it. I guess you think that if 50% of the people have the problem and 50% don't, that means there's not a problem, but that's not how manufacturing defects, quality control, and statistics work. They look at failure and error rates and go back to why those happened. If it happens above a certain criteria, it's something outside of what's expected, and often a production or design flaw.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  91. #91
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    Jayem- You are on here just to argue and its pretty clear. An auto recall is different so stop trying to use that , thats millions vs maybe a few hundred . Also , a vehicle is a high speed projectile so fuel pumps and accelerators sticking is way more life threatening and dangerous then a compression ring.

    Okay so you just said it , the op is mad cuz he didnt get what he thought he was buying . So where did he buy it from ? The LBS , its the LBS' fault , and the LBS is the one that needs to contact CK , get the proper ring for the OP, and then get him all settled up. The LBS is the one that needs to pay for the ring and satisfy the customer. I get what your saying about the failure rate that some people have had issues and some havent . We can say this about Fox's forks being sucky , oil seeping into the other chamber, and people always pissed off about not getting full travel , so why didnt fox do anything or recall its forks ? Just sayin , sometimes everything is not perfect so get over it .

  92. #92
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    ^ Not just Fox forks, you could say the same thing about everything made on the planet. Nothing made is perfect.

  93. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    ^ Not just Fox forks, you could say the same thing about everything made on the planet. Nothing made is perfect.
    Well according to Jayem his world is perfect and we are living in a flawed society lol .

  94. #94
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    You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Jayem again.
    Bugger.

    Jayem, you are beating your head against a brick wall here. You have made the same perfectly coherent points over and over again.

    IMO, LBS shouldn't have sold a 3 year old part without letting the OP know that it was NOS. But more fundamentally, CK should never have made stupid-expensive headsets with a basic design flaw built into them in the first place. It's incredibly damning that as soon as the patent on the o-ring expired, they started using it.

    Pretty much a subset of what you've been saying here, but it's falling on deaf ears.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Have you ever tried removing the headset cap? I highly suggest this. Go do a few rides with it like this. No, your bars will not move or rotate. Yes, the star nut and stem will be "worked" just a little, enough to start getting some play in the headset.

    It's a good test. Not as effective with a compression-ring headset, but you will get some play and loosening in there with a couple rides just the same.

    I know you said you've "had a friend who...", but I've actually tried this. I recommend you do too and let me know. Generally the CK doesn't come loose right away or in the course of one run, it's over a few rides at least, or a few runs at a DH resort at the quickest, but it's not super-fast, its noticing all of a sudden on very smooth ground that you're getting a lot of impacts to the handlebars and "something isn't right", all of a sudden you're able to feel some play. Like most headset loosening, the onset isn't immediate or very noticeable.

    Based on your analysis, there'd be no need for a headset cap and bolt in the first place, as we could use it as a "tool" then put in in our toolbox. It's there for a reason though...

    Of course, it wasn't a "common thing" when we had 2-3" travel forks on 26" bikes. As we went to forks like the Z150 and then 3" 29er forks with at least the same axle-to-crown, it started to get much more pronounced.
    I don't have a dog in this fight, but am interested in the no top-cap discussion, specifically:

    Have you ever tried removing the headset cap? I highly suggest this. Go do a few rides with it like this. No, your bars will not move or rotate. Yes, the star nut and stem will be "worked" just a little, enough to start getting some play in the headset.

    If you take off your headset cap, how will your star nut be "worked" at all? Or am I missing something?

    I was always under the impression star nut/top cap was to set pre-load, stem holds it all together. I don't think that star nut really needs much holding power. A fella can use those removable 'star' nuts and get plenty of pre-load on a headset. Not to mention, I bet $100 if you had a press you could press one of those suckers out 10x easier than pulling a stem off a steer tube when it's clamped down. Point being, the stem has much more holding power than a top-cap.

    But with that being said, rationale doesn't always = fact. Sheldon Brown constantly reminds me of that.

  96. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArizRider View Post
    I don't have a dog in this fight, but am interested in the no top-cap discussion, specifically:

    Have you ever tried removing the headset cap? I highly suggest this. Go do a few rides with it like this. No, your bars will not move or rotate. Yes, the star nut and stem will be "worked" just a little, enough to start getting some play in the headset.

    If you take off your headset cap, how will your star nut be "worked" at all? Or am I missing something?

    I was always under the impression star nut/top cap was to set pre-load, stem holds it all together. I don't think that star nut really needs much holding power. A fella can use those removable 'star' nuts and get plenty of pre-load on a headset. Not to mention, I bet $100 if you had a press you could press one of those suckers out 10x easier than pulling a stem off a steer tube when it's clamped down. Point being, the stem has much more holding power than a top-cap.
    You're right, I didn't mean to add the bit about the star-nut to that part. The compression aspect may keep the steerer from rocking back and forth slightly, which is likely where the real loosening occurs.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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    Quote Originally Posted by 006_007 View Post
    I think we need at least one more page discussing this topic.
    f'in lol

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    I've had really good luck with C.K. on the few occasions I've interacted with their customer service.

    Last week, I was installing a Marzocchi 66 fork on my frame after having dissasembled my bike for travel. I was in too much of a hurry and pinched the rubber o-ring in the headset. I went to the C.K. website to order a replacement, and couldn't find the o-ring in the list of parts they offer for sale. I filled out my information in their contact link explaining what I wanted. I hadn't hear from them for a few days and was going to call to follow up, but I got the part in the mail today. They didn't bill me for it or the stamp to mail it. I thought that was quite nice.

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    I want in!!
    And here's hoping I get this to 5 pages!!

    I'll admit it.
    I did EXACTLY the same thing as OP. Assumed the 'new' griplock CK sets came standard w/ the new(er) sotto voce headset, and I had done my homework (on this site) and read about the Griplock, and I even looked at the damn thing, and, the top cap or split wedge Totally slipped my mind. Didn't cry, didn't go back, didn't wana reorder, didn't wana wait, didn't CARE, I took the hit and simply ordered the grip lock. I LIVE by 'Let The BUYER BEWARE' and this oversight was ALL me.

    BUT, Imho if CK HAD a design that didn't need tweaking, then why the late day change to a wedge cap design, AFTER CCs patent ran out? Sounds a little like CK realized a Need for Some to have an 'upgrade' where slippage or alignment wear is an issue. That sort of sounds to me like CK offered a change for the better that should be implemented in ALL future designs, like most other HS manufacturers. That kinda sounds like CK is just too reluctant to admit there was something wrong with the design but doesn't want to admit it. I know this has ALL been said before, But I'm a happy CK owner and fan and quite happy with my HS, and in a PERFECT world would like to see an industry legend like CK step up and take the hit and recall all product from the its dealers so this type of **** doesn't happen again and tarnish their Rep any further. But that aint gonna happen.

    OH well.....

    Still like my CK.

  100. #100
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    Bikes change a lot. What once used to work, may at some point need tweaking to continue to work.

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