new SRAM x.0

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  • 10-29-2006
    plume
    new SRAM x.0
    holy sh*t.

    240 for a fugging rear derailleur?

    Only thing that's good for is that it makes the 160 bucks for XTR seem piddly...

    wow. singlespeeding makes more sense every year huh?

    sorry I just couldn't beleive this when I saw it...
  • 10-29-2006
    robdamanii
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by plume
    holy sh*t.

    240 for a fugging rear derailleur?

    Only thing that's good for is that it makes the 160 bucks for XTR seem piddly...

    wow. singlespeeding makes more sense every year huh?

    sorry I just couldn't beleive this when I saw it...

    Where have you been for the past 3 years?
  • 10-30-2006
    Cyco-Dude
    seeing as how current and past xo rear derailers hover around 210 grams, i hardly believe the '07 offerings will hit 240.
  • 10-30-2006
    man w/ one hand
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Cyco-Dude
    seeing as how current and past xo rear derailers hover around 210 grams, i hardly believe the '07 offerings will hit 240.

    I think the OP is referring to cost/price/$$$, not weight. :eek: $240 for a derailluer?? For that much $$$ it better know what gear I'm shiftin' into before I do it.
  • 10-30-2006
    dip n ride
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by man w/ one hand
    I think the OP is referring to cost/price/$$$, not weight. :eek: $240 for a derailluer?? For that much $$$ it better know what gear I'm shiftin' into before I do it.


    haha, yeah, and I'd expect a quickie after a long ride as well
  • 10-30-2006
    Rivet
    Ridiculous prices?
    Did a bit of research and found a few items that are completely out of scale of reality and comparable product from other manufacturers, with very little improvement in performance. I know you can probably get these things a bit cheaper if you dig but this is what the manufacturers suggest. Crazy.

    SRAM XO rear der. $240.00 (ripping one of these off will ruin more than just your ride)

    Shimano M971 crankset $630.00
    (Does it actually pedal for me? I can't imagine what replacement rings are gonna cost)

    Shimano M971 casette $235.00 (this is a fairly quick wear item which makes this even more insane)

    Rock Shox Totem fork $ 1200.00 (looks like Rock Shox has abandoned their good pricing now that they have gotten market share back after making crap for so many years)

    Any others?
  • 10-30-2006
    The Weasel
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Rivet
    ....overpriced product listing....

    Absolutely silly.
  • 10-30-2006
    man w/ one hand
    sorry bout th' dbl. it happens.
  • 10-30-2006
    man w/ one hand
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Rivet
    Did a bit of research and found a few items that are completely out of scale of reality and comparable product from other manufacturers, with very little improvement in performance. I know you can probably get these things a bit cheaper if you dig but this is what the manufacturers suggest. Crazy.

    SRAM XO rear der. $240.00 (ripping one of these off will ruin more than just your ride)

    Shimano M971 crankset $630.00
    (Does it actually pedal for me? I can't imagine what replacement rings are gonna cost)

    Shimano M971 casette $235.00 (this is a fairly quick wear item which makes this even more insane)

    Rock Shox Totem fork $ 1200.00 (looks like Rock Shox has abandoned their good pricing now that they have gotten market share back after making crap for so many years)

    Any others?


    07 SRAM X.0 rear deailluer $220 at Price Point.


    Now these prices will start pushing people out of th' sport. Harley jacked their prices a few yrs. bk. to get "better" clientel. Now you have a bunch of doc., lawyer types that are bad-boy wanna-bes that trailer their bikes into town and then ride them around for a day or so then trailer them up to ride home. Real high class clientel. Quicker people start droppin' out, the quicker prices level off I guess. SAD
  • 10-30-2006
    Carbon Ken
    I guess we're used to seeing these ridiculous prices but sometimes, it takes a "normal" person to make us realize how ridiculous they really are.

    Last month, I was looking at an advertisement for a crankset when my mother caught me gazing at the ad. Since my birthday was just a week away, she offered to buy it for me. I chuckled to myself and asked her to take me out to my favorite Japanese restaurant instead when she replied, "C'mon Ken, you know I'm retired. I can't afford those expensive restaurants anymore."

    Of course I couldn't tell her how much the crankset actually cost. Don't want to imagine what the shock would do to her since she's already suffering from high blood pressure.
  • 10-30-2006
    Ventanarama
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by man w/ one hand

    07 SRAM X.0 rear deailluer $220 at Price Point.


    Now these prices will start pushing people out of th' sport. Harley jacked their prices a few yrs. bk. to get "better" clientel. Now you have a bunch of doc., lawyer types that are bad-boy wanna-bes that trailer their bikes into town and then ride them around for a day or so then trailer them up to ride home. Real high class clientel. Quicker people start droppin' out, the quicker prices level off I guess. SAD

    I disagree, you really have to look the big picture not just one component. Yes, X.0. is super expensive, but some SRAM/Avid/RS stuff actually dropped in price this year (Juicy brakes), other items got significant upgrades but stayed about the same in price (X.9. and X.7.).

    Larry
    Mountain High Cyclery
    larry@mtnhighcyclery.com
  • 10-30-2006
    K'Endo
    Keep in mind that a SRAM X.0 der is fully rebuildable. It can be torn down completely and broken/worn parts replaced. I honestly don't know pricing for the replacement bits, but there's some value in knowing that if you break one or two parts that you don't have to dole out the full hit for a replacement.

    Kn.
  • 10-30-2006
    Rivet
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by K'Endo
    Keep in mind that a SRAM X.0 der is fully rebuildable. It can be torn down completely and broken/worn parts replaced. I honestly don't know pricing for the replacement bits, but there's some value in knowing that if you break one or two parts that you don't have to dole out the full hit for a replacement.

    Kn.

    Maybe, but the fact that they are dealer only parts I bet it ain't gonna be cheap.
  • 10-30-2006
    MartinsMental
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by K'Endo
    Keep in mind that a SRAM X.0 der is fully rebuildable. It can be torn down completely and broken/worn parts replaced. I honestly don't know pricing for the replacement bits, but there's some value in knowing that if you break one or two parts that you don't have to dole out the full hit for a replacement.

    Kn.

    Not to burst your bubble but the X.O. der is NOT fully rebuildable. Only the cage, limit screws, hanger bolt, etc are replaceable.

    Ventanarama: Excellent point and I couldn't agree with you more.

    Let's all keep in mind that X.O. is boutique option, not a necessity. The new '07 X.9 looks rad and is less than half the cost of X.O. There are plenty of options for plenty of people.
  • 10-30-2006
    man w/ one hand
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Ventanarama
    I disagree, you really have to look the big picture not just one component. Yes, X.0. is super expensive, but some SRAM/Avid/RS stuff actually dropped in price this year (Juicy brakes), other items got significant upgrades but stayed about the same in price (X.9. and X.7.).

    Larry
    Mountain High Cyclery
    larry@mtnhighcyclery.com

    Point taken & I agree totally. I guess they do have to get a lil' more for the R&D on the hi-end stuff so it can trickle down into the mid to lower end stuff.

    The higher prices sometimes are just "feelers" to see how many they can sell & figure out what price to drop to for the rest of us.

    Thanks fer settin' me straight.
  • 10-30-2006
    Circlip
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Ventanarama
    I disagree, you really have to look the big picture not just one component. Yes, X.0. is super expensive, but some SRAM/Avid/RS stuff actually dropped in price this year (Juicy brakes), other items got significant upgrades but stayed about the same in price (X.9. and X.7.).

    I'm seeing an even bigger picture than this, which is the relationship between aftermarket and OEM sales. I can't recall where I read it, but I think I caught some coverage out of of Interbike where RockShox had mentioned that they really only expect people to be buying the highest end parts (e.g. Totem fork for $1200) as part of a complete OEM bike spec. In effect the component supplier is then creating "added value" for their OEM customers by making the aftermarket price for the top end items so ridiculously high, that it helps the bike companies to sell their complete high end bikes, because it's a much more economical method for a consumer to get onto these top end components.

    It's not a new concept, obviously, but it seems to be pushed to a new extreme now where the differential between buying a complete top end bike versus a custom spec build of the same top end components is at an all time high. For anyone actually paying these prices for aftermarket upgrades or complete custom-spec builds, the supplier such as SRAM/RockShox just treats it as gravy in their sales revenue since it carries a much better margin for them versus products that are just one or 2 notches lower in the lineup. We're all gear whores though, so we fork over the cash to get the setup we want. :thumbsup:

    The bleeding Shimano has suffered in the OEM market for the past couple of years is probably set to ease up with the release of redesigned XTR (and trickle down components) which I'm sure will be accompanied by more aggressive OEM pricing as Shimano attempts to win back its lost turf. SRAM/RockShox has to get creative to retain their gains in the OEM market, and this is just one part of the overall strategy.

    How's that for conspiracy theories? I can hear the black 'copters circling over my house now...
  • 10-30-2006
    K'Endo
    1 Attachment(s)
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by MartinsMental
    Not to burst your bubble but the X.O. der is NOT fully rebuildable. Only the cage, limit screws, hanger bolt, etc are replaceable.

    I disagree. As you can see, all the pins holding the body together have circlips and can be removed/replaced. So at the very least the whole thing can be disassembled. Availability of replacement parts, however could be another issue entirely.

    Kn.
  • 10-30-2006
    MartinsMental
    Well...
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by K'Endo
    I disagree. As you can see, all the pins holding the body together have circlips and can be removed/replaced. So at the very least the whole thing can be disassembled. Availability of replacement parts, however could be another issue entirely.

    Kn.

    K'Endo,

    I see your point. Sure, it can be dissassembled but it can't be put back together properly. The circlip you see will become deformed upon removal and cannot be reinstalled. Furthermore, there are no spare parts available anywhere and I mean friggin' nowhere:madman:

    X.O. R. Der - Disassemleable, not rebuildable. If that's even a word. :thumbsup:
  • 10-30-2006
    robdamanii
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by MartinsMental
    K'Endo,

    I see your point. Sure, it can be dissassembled but it can't be put back together properly. The circlip you see will become deformed upon removal and cannot be reinstalled. Furthermore, there are no spare parts available anywhere and I mean friggin' nowhere:madman:

    X.O. R. Der - Disassemleable, not rebuildable. If that's even a word. :thumbsup:

    Somewhere in the Everything Drivetrain board there is a thread about a company who will disassemble the X.0, anodise it and then rebuild it. it IS possible. Very difficult he claims, however.
  • 10-30-2006
    MartinsMental
    Yup
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by robdamanii
    Somewhere in the Everything Drivetrain board there is a thread about a company who will disassemble the X.0, anodise it and then rebuild it. it IS possible. Very difficult he claims, however.

    Not my thing but hey, whatever floats your boat.

    http://http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=194306

    And maybe you were referencing a different thread but this guy ain't disassembling the entire derailleur. Not to mention he's throwing the warranty out the window but that's neither here nor there.
  • 10-30-2006
    robdamanii
    Hrm, that's not the thread he was discussing the disassembly I don't think. Maybe it wasn't here. But you're right, he didn't anodize everything. I wish I could remember where the hell I saw that discussion.
  • 10-30-2006
    robdamanii
  • 10-30-2006
    kaikara
    I don't think it is a big deal. It is not like the X.0 is the only option. There are plenty of others and at a much better price point. There is always going to be a huge jump in price at the high end for argueably very little difference in performance. The people that pay for this get to play with the technology that will eventually filter down to the rest of us mere mortals. It is the same with cars, computer compnents or anything else.
  • 10-30-2006
    Hurricane Jeff
    Lets see $240 for a XO derailluer and $99 for the twist shifters verses $160 for the XTR and $250 for shifters....

    So you get a lighter, better shifting and less expensive package with the SRAM XO, the choice now seems clear.
  • 10-30-2006
    Dazed
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Rivet

    Shimano M971 crankset $630.00
    (Does it actually pedal for me? I can't imagine what replacement rings are gonna cost)

    Shimano M971 casette $235.00 (this is a fairly quick wear item which makes this even more insane)

    The 971 crankset costs $359 at chainreactioncycles.com, and the cassette is titanium, and costs $136. If you're economical, you'll buy the XT cassette for $56.
  • 10-30-2006
    JmZ
    If that's the case then I'm thinking that there are some people over at Manitou, Marzocchi, and even White that are thanking RS for their pricing policy.

    If I can get a fork that's just as good for 1/2 or 3/4 of the price.... great way to drive consumers away from YOUR prouct.

    Reminds me of what GM and Ford were doing a few years back. When we went looking at cars - with options included the domestics were more actually more expensive than the imports. Add in percieved quality differences... reciepe for not selling as much product.

    And this gear whore buys last year's parts on closeout. At prices that are not $250 for a rear mech - I'll wait a while.


    JmZ



    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Circlip
    I'm seeing an even bigger picture than this, which is the relationship between aftermarket and OEM sales. I can't recall where I read it, but I think I caught some coverage out of of Interbike where RockShox had mentioned that they really only expect people to be buying the highest end parts (e.g. Totem fork for $1200) as part of a complete OEM bike spec. In effect the component supplier is then creating "added value" for their OEM customers by making the aftermarket price for the top end items so ridiculously high, that it helps the bike companies to sell their complete high end bikes, because it's a much more economical method for a consumer to get onto these top end components.

    It's not a new concept, obviously, but it seems to be pushed to a new extreme now where the differential between buying a complete top end bike versus a custom spec build of the same top end components is at an all time high. For anyone actually paying these prices for aftermarket upgrades or complete custom-spec builds, the supplier such as SRAM/RockShox just treats it as gravy in their sales revenue since it carries a much better margin for them versus products that are just one or 2 notches lower in the lineup. We're all gear whores though, so we fork over the cash to get the setup we want. :thumbsup:

    The bleeding Shimano has suffered in the OEM market for the past couple of years is probably set to ease up with the release of redesigned XTR (and trickle down components) which I'm sure will be accompanied by more aggressive OEM pricing as Shimano attempts to win back its lost turf. SRAM/RockShox has to get creative to retain their gains in the OEM market, and this is just one part of the overall strategy.

    How's that for conspiracy theories? I can hear the black 'copters circling over my house now...

  • 10-30-2006
    noshortcuts
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by K'Endo
    I disagree. As you can see, all the pins holding the body together have circlips and can be removed/replaced. So at the very least the whole thing can be disassembled. Availability of replacement parts, however could be another issue entirely.

    Kn.

    Yes, availability is another issue, but one that is inseparable.

    What good are replaceable parts without availability? And don't hold your breath for availablilty.

    Hell, SRAM doesn't even keep up a supply of replaceable grips for their various lines of gripshifts over the years. Just try and find both a right and left of Rocket, x-9, x-0, and so on.

    I ride some high end parts but do agree the pricing is out of whack on a lot of stuff.
  • 10-30-2006
    BruceBrown
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by plume
    holy sh*t.

    240 for a fugging rear derailleur?

    Only thing that's good for is that it makes the 160 bucks for XTR seem piddly...

    wow. singlespeeding makes more sense every year huh?

    sorry I just couldn't beleive this when I saw it...

    I'll admit it. I bought an X.0 rear derailleur in 2003 along with the X.0 Twist Shifters. Bling and $$$. Rode those for 2 full years and mistakingly went out after a rain and hit a trail that was very muddy with thick clay mud. Within 50 yards of the trailhead going down the hill and hitting the first flat area so much mud had built up that on my first 1/2 revolution of the cranks I snapped the rear X.0 derailleur in half. Painful, but I had only myself to blame.

    Since then, I have been using the much more cost efficient and equally capable X.9 derailleur (usually pick them up new on eBay).

    Lesson learned - the X.0 simply ain't worth it.

    BB
  • 10-30-2006
    heavyg
    bling minus a notch
    I have xo triggers and derailer and they are sweet, no doubt. But I have run x7 and x9 extensively and think that the x9 are just about every bit as good as the x0. I actually like the x9s feel a bit better, but I think the x0 probably is a touch "quicker".

    I will in all likelihood go x9 next time around because they are near perfect IMHO.

    And x7s ain't bad either- the only thing I don't like too much is that the big lever in plastic seems a little too flexy. But the RD is pretty much just as good as x9.

    In general, one notch down from the uber stuff is a good way to go. I love XT gear in the Shimano line, and LX is pretty much just as good as XT, too.
  • 10-31-2006
    plume
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Hurricane Jeff
    Lets see $240 for a XO derailluer and $99 for the twist shifters verses $160 for the XTR and $250 for shifters....

    So you get a lighter, better shifting and less expensive package with the SRAM XO, the choice now seems clear.

    Ugh. Twist shifters? Price the SRAMs rapid fire shifters then come talk to me. It becomes a matter of personal preference I admit. I just happen to prefer shimano.

    :)
  • 10-31-2006
    robdamanii
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by heavyg
    I have xo triggers and derailer and they are sweet, no doubt. But I have run x7 and x9 extensively and think that the x9 are just about every bit as good as the x0. I actually like the x9s feel a bit better, but I think the x0 probably is a touch "quicker".

    I will in all likelihood go x9 next time around because they are near perfect IMHO.

    And x7s ain't bad either- the only thing I don't like too much is that the big lever in plastic seems a little too flexy. But the RD is pretty much just as good as x9.

    In general, one notch down from the uber stuff is a good way to go. I love XT gear in the Shimano line, and LX is pretty much just as good as XT, too.

    The new X.9 stuff is basically the same as the X.0 but without the bling factor. Great stuff for an awesome price.
  • 10-31-2006
    itsdoable
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by K'Endo
    Keep in mind that a SRAM X.0 der is fully rebuildable....

    That was the case with the original SRAM deraileur, but when I broke an arm of the parrallellogram, I could not get the replacement part. However, SRAM replaced the whole derailleur free with the new version, which was not rebuildable.


    Quote:

    Originally Posted by MartinsMental
    ...The circlip you see will become deformed upon removal and cannot be reinstalled. Furthermore, there are no spare parts available anywhere and I mean friggin' nowhere...

    The circlips can be removed and re-installed with destroying them. Spares however, are an issue.
  • 10-31-2006
    Jim311
    Ha, a super high end derailler is going to start pushing people out of the sport? Said people can purchase an x5 for practically nothing. After I tore off my first XO I switched to X9. Virtually no functional difference in terms of shifting between the two. If you look at the two all you're really getting is some fancy hardware. The "carbon fiber" on my old XO wasn't even real carbon fiber, just a composite plastic.
  • 10-31-2006
    Jim311
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by itsdoable
    That was the case with the original SRAM deraileur, but when I broke an arm of the parrallellogram, I could not get the replacement part. However, SRAM replaced the whole derailleur free with the new version, which was not rebuildable.



    The circlips can be removed and re-installed with destroying them. Spares however, are an issue.


    I find it hard to believe that SRAM specially makes their own c-clips. Buy a bulk box of a billion different sizes from Harbor Freight for 5 bucks and your problems will be solved. Since when are circle clips non re-usable?!
  • 10-31-2006
    scrublover
    I'll just agree with some of the others: XT and X.9 level stuff is where it's at.

    They are so friggen' close in weight/performance to the upper stuff (well, except for XT and the new 07 XTR i guess) and appear to have at least the same, if not better durability.

    The 07 X.9 I just bought was much cheaper than an X.0, but very close in weight, performance, and looks. Trickle down tech is great: the new X.9 stuff is pretty much what X.0 was two years ago, at a much lower price.

    Cassettes? Pick up XT level cassettes, and grab an old aftermarket alloy cassette lockring off of fleabay, and you're that much closer to the weight of the XTR cassette, at a still much lower price. Been doing that for years. I think I've had the same couple of lockrings for several bikes/years/cassettes now.
  • 10-31-2006
    sonyisdope
    Seriously, I don't see what the big deal is either.

    #1-Like a few people have said. . .XO is NOT a necessity, and X9 works awesome for a fraction of the price!

    #2-The Rockshox Totem series of forks are completely different than any other forks in the Rockshox line. Just like XO, a Totem is not a necessity for your bike either! If you want value, check out the Rockshox Argyle 302, which can be found for under $400 anywhere! Are they the same? No. But, the Argyle is an awesome fork if you are aggressive and are looking for bang for the buck. If you want to talk expensive, look at Fox. They don't make a fork for under $450! If you are more aggressive, and want a Fox 36, be prepared to pay for it! I say, Amen to Rockshox for coming out with a solid fork that can compete with the Fox 36's and Marzocchi 66's!

    #3-XTR and XO are Pro level components. For a majority of us, they are overkill! We just want the best though! It's human nature. Will you win a race if you have XTR? Maybe, but it will not be because of your shifters. Will you win a race with XT? Maybe! But once again, it's not because of your shifters.

    Yeah, so long rant short. . .You don't need XTR or XO unless you want to be the coolest cat on the trail!
  • 10-31-2006
    Yeti_Rider
    I've often wondered
    what the cost of components would be if there weren't so many freaking pricepoints that the makers were matching. I mean, we all know that XTR is more expensive than XT and LX and so on. WE also know that the quality of the parts in XTR is better (or supposedly anyway) and the parts are lighter. So, why is there such a price differential between the different groups?

    Sure, you can argue successfully that the cost of the raw materials, manufacturing processes, etc. are higher in the more chi-chi XTR stuff. You can also successfully argue that they are not (in theory anyway) selling as many of the high end parts so they aren't getting teh same economies of scale as they are on LX.

    But.........what if they only sold XTR? they'd be selling a bazillion of them so their purchasing power would go up and their manufacturing efficiencies should in theory go up all resulting in a cheaper part than at the lower volumes we currently see. would this work? in theory it should although I'm sure there are a bunch of variables I"ve left out. My personal opinion though is that if they only made one group adn that group was THE BEST that they could, most of us bike snobs would not want it if it also came on the entry level bikes and we'd therefore THINK it was cheaper and not as good.

    The bike industry seems to be one of those indsutries where we consumers don't mind paying a bit more and often even fall under the "if it costs more it must be better" mentality.

    Should a mass produced Trek Fuel cost as much as a custom built boutique brand bike? Probably not, but they do..............................who's making a higher margin?

    YR
  • 10-31-2006
    zon
    Shifters, Sram Rocket shifters, eBay 40$
    Derailleur, bulletproof Shimano M751 XT, ebay 50$
    Watching someone bash a 200$ + derailleur on a rock, priceless.
  • 10-31-2006
    LBmtb
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by plume
    holy sh*t.

    240 for a fugging rear derailleur?

    Only thing that's good for is that it makes the 160 bucks for XTR seem piddly...

    wow. singlespeeding makes more sense every year huh?

    sorry I just couldn't beleive this when I saw it...

    Then just buy the $70 '05 x.9 rear from Jenson. Seems like an easy solution, no? I recently bought that along with an xt cassette and new chain. Installing this week.:cool:
  • 11-01-2006
    SHIVER ME TIMBERS
    the price is why I didn't get the X-0's.......i was also told the X-9's were the same on the inside but didn't have the carbon on the outside.....and the gram difference is only like 30 or so