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  1. #101
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    OT2 - Appreciate the good intel to my wiseazz inquiry.

    (tapa)

  2. #102
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    fire proof undies is definitely a great invention. We should make it available to the masses after a good Santa Fe dinner.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zowie View Post
    I can't imagine you're advancing the idea that as long as people realize they do not care about endangering themselves and others, that makes it good and right?
    If that is true, it certainly makes it reality, but I have to doubt many people think of such a mentality as positive...
    It's not clear to me what you are trying to say here, but in the video, the guy is trying to make the point of how bad and dangerous cars are, as if he had some secret breaking news that the government is trying to hide from us. (or something..)

    My post was just pointing out that it is not a secret. We all know that people die in cars. I happened to know the statistics for the U.S before he even mentioned them in the video. We all know we take a small risk by getting in a car.
    Do I think it's ok that we understand and accept the risk to ourselves and others, in exchange for the benefit of motor vehicle travel? Yes, of course. And so do you, if you drive a car.

  4. #104
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    i wonder why they wear helmets in the tour de france. dont they know that they are useless and will only slow them down and make them hot?

  5. #105
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    Neurologist says bike helmets are useless

    Quote Originally Posted by bigfruits View Post
    i wonder why they wear helmets in the tour de france. dont they know that they are useless and will only slow them down and make them hot?
    Do you watch it at all? They fall on their heads... a lot. A couple have even been hit by cars.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigfruits View Post
    i wonder why they wear helmets in the tour de france. dont they know that they are useless and will only slow them down and make them hot?
    Adoption and use of helmets by pro roadies is an interesting topic actually, and as a group they certainly didn't transition willingly. However, with some years of water under the bridge I wonder how many of them would revert back to optional helmet use, or optional only with mountain top finishes which was the final evolution of the helmetless era?

    A large number of current pros now will have only known racing in helmets as the generation has rolled through, although if you see pics of pro teams out for training rides you can still often catch some of them not wearing helmets, especially in colder seasons, opting to wear toques instead.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by ou2mame View Post
    I don't understand how bike racks and helmets have anything to do with each other.. Are we supposed to ride our mountain bikes 20 miles to the trailhead? That's like going on a road trip with a dirt bike.

    Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk
    Could be he's promoting the idea of getting a workout by lifting your bike on to / off of the rack everyday so 'we' can eliminate gym memberships.

    The real beauty of this is we don't have to ride the bike, just take with. Lifting it is all that is needed to join the club !

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by terrasmak View Post
    I wonder if he thought about all the undocumented cases of people who did not have to visit him in the hospital?
    Because they died from a head injury while not wearing a helmet.

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by smilinsteve View Post

    So for those who are waiting for data to provide proof, wear a helmet while you are waiting, based on scientific modeling, experimentation, and common sense. If that is not enough reason for you, then perhaps there is something to the theory of herd thinning.
    All good and relevant points in the post, the last part here just gets me thinking the lack of data isn't convincing them to wait, it's just allowing them a sliver of cover for the time being.

    Taking on an inherently risky endeavor ought to help us realize additional risks mean more opportunity to be injured, incapacitated or killed. I don't dwell on it but for ****sake, my family knows I care enough to take some sensible precautions.
    IMO, doing otherwise is arrogant and selfish.
    **
    There is nothing remotely intelligent about using lack of data to prove to others what you don't know intrinsically.

    Bike helmets have become better and will continue to do so. Anyone who has perused info on motorcycle helmets will see the advances there as well. Expanded polystyrene (EPS) is used in both and although you can't say the two helmets are a 1:1 protection ratio, Impact absorption performance (for EPS) is very well tested and proven.

    To say that helmets create danger or do nothing to protect or reduce injury is irresponsible at best and borders on grave liability.

    It won't hurt to review intrinsic knowledge and by the way ....

    It's A BIKE STORY !!


    An example for intrinsic knowledge can be represented by a kid that is learning how to ride a bicycle. His or her parents can teach the child the technique of riding a bicycle but no one can teach how to maintain the balance because that is something that the persons just knows. Maintaining balance while riding a bicycle cannot be taught by someone because every person has a different technique to perform the act. It is an experience and a perception that the person has after having hours or even days of practice. After a while the child will be riding the bike without any difficulty because that is the kind of knowledge the kid has but doesnít know he or she has inside. This portrays intrinsic knowledge that is what the person knows without even realizing that he or she knows it.
    Last edited by bachman1961; 06-02-2014 at 04:46 PM.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gasp4Air View Post
    I think you mean shvance, schlong, or putz. Schwarz mean 'black'.
    You never watched Spaceballs?
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  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigfruits View Post
    i wonder why they wear helmets in the tour de france. dont they know that they are useless and will only slow them down and make them hot?


    Quote Originally Posted by girlonbike View Post
    Do you watch it at all? They fall on their heads... a lot. A couple have even been hit by cars.

    I think bf was just being funny.

  12. #112
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    Actually he's not He's just taking care he will have enough patients Business only
    Primoz

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strafer.2 View Post
    You never watched Spaceballs?
    Name:  schwartz.jpg
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    Yeah, long time ago, but I forgot about "May the Schwartz be with you". The missing 't' in your quote threw me off a bit - "schwarz" does mean black. Wikipedia had this for Schwartz.

    Schwartz
    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Look up Schwarz or schwarz in Wiktionary, the free dictionary.

    Schwartz may refer to:

    Schwartz (surname), a surname (and list of people with the name)
    Schwartz (brand), a spice brand
    The Schwartz, a fictional force in Spaceballs
    Schwartz's, a delicatessen

    I do remember Rick Moranis gasping for air under his helmet.
    Use it, use it, use it while you still have it.

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by smilinsteve View Post
    It's not clear to me what you are trying to say here, but in the video, the guy is trying to make the point of how bad and dangerous cars are, as if he had some secret breaking news that the government is trying to hide from us. (or something..)

    My post was just pointing out that it is not a secret. We all know that people die in cars. I happened to know the statistics for the U.S before he even mentioned them in the video. We all know we take a small risk by getting in a car.
    Do I think it's ok that we understand and accept the risk to ourselves and others, in exchange for the benefit of motor vehicle travel? Yes, of course. And so do you, if you drive a car.
    I would agree it's no secret, but wasn't this pretty much the attitude on smoking in rather recent US history? Was anyone really that surprised when they started publishing data on how much they spent on propaganda? And in a similar vein, whether or not you choose to smoke or drive a car, you are endangered being around those who do. But then again, there are a zillion things you could be exposed to that you really have no control over.

    I guess the real point I was getting at is that it's sad how many people LIVE in their vehicles who do not actually need to and/or drive impaired on a regular basis, and from the looks of statistics, seem to be responsible for the vast majority of accidents. I suppose that's really what I was getting at. Just another tool that can be used responsibly, or irresponsibly...

    I do agree with you 100% as far as the on-topic discussion goes.

  15. #115
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    ...helmet never useless. I have bounced off the ground and bounced off trees and cars and hit my helmet wearing noggin and for sure 110% without a helmet at the very least I would have open scalp wounds and one time I would have cracked my skull.

    the writer of the study is a complete and utter idiot

  16. #116
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    Are people really arguing about the utility of a helmet? Wow. These must be individuals that are young, philosophy-student types. It's a bunch of mental masturbation.
    Puff Tijuana Smalls
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  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flucod View Post
    Actually the only reason they wear helmets is, it is in the rules. Most of those guys only wear a helmet during events, but do not wear them on training rides. Most would not wear one in a race if it was not in the rules.

    You are probably correct if left to their own choice but since it's in the rules, there must be something to it.

    - Not sayin' big organizations are immune to making silly decisions or having senseless rules, but I think they got this one right.

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by bachman1961 View Post
    You are probably correct if left to their own choice but since it's in the rules, there must be something to it.

    - Not sayin' big organizations are immune to making silly decisions or having senseless rules, but I think they got this one right.
    Keep in mind that the UCI and related financial structures around the pro road teams may have had some commercial incentive to get behind the helmet initiative, as helmet companies were probably more willing to invest in sponsorship arrangements when their products were actually being used and worn as something purported to viewers as being very important, not optional, for safety.

    The catalyst for pushing through mandatory helmets on the pro road scene was the death of Andrei Kivilev, a former 4th place finisher in the Tour de France whose accident if I recall correctly was while riding uphill at relatively slow speeds (for pro roadies) and simply pitching forward quite awkwardly onto the front portion of his head.

    Here's a wiki link that gives a bit more detail concerning the changing of the guard with respect to helmets;

    Andrey Kivilev - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blatant View Post
    Awesome. I think you should stop wearing one.
    ++1

  20. #120
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    Thread's been solved a long time but I have a related observation. When I lived near Stanford University and would cut through campus, do the jumps etc. 90% of those kids paying $250k+ for their educations didnt wear helmets ...

    $25 helmet , 1 in 10,000 chance of needing it pays even money on the cost of your education alone. Lesson: book smarts isnt real world smarts, it might even push the real world stuff out for text's sakes

  21. #121
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    Don't show this to the weight weenies.

    Sent from my mountain bike while crashing
    Please donate to IMBA or your local IMBA chapter. It's trail karma.

  22. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip View Post
    Keep in mind that the UCI and related financial structures around the pro road teams may have had some commercial incentive to get behind the helmet initiative, as helmet companies were probably more willing to invest in sponsorship arrangements when their products were actually being used and worn as something purported to viewers as being very important, not optional, for safety.

    The catalyst for pushing through mandatory helmets on the pro road scene was the death of Andrei Kivilev, a former 4th place finisher in the Tour de France whose accident if I recall correctly was while riding uphill at relatively slow speeds (for pro roadies) and simply pitching forward quite awkwardly onto the front portion of his head.

    Here's a wiki link that gives a bit more detail concerning the changing of the guard with respect to helmets;

    Andrey Kivilev - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Thanks for some background and thoughts on another facet of influence involved.

    About 10 years ago, I began looking into motorcycle safety, stats, gear helmets etc... when realizing all my experiences and confidence in years of riding was in the dirt and on trails. I happened upon a nice deal for street bike and there it sat as I realized I needed to up my game and get educated.

    There is a certain level of control over mitigating dangers that one has (or feels they have) in the absence of traffic, busy streets and other distractions. On the trail, I ride at my comfortable speed and pace and don't worry about an errant vehicle hitting me or catapulting me into the next zip code.
    *I always wore a m/c helmet on trails but the safety research I did on other factors brought a new respect for the quality of helmets and studies.

    I guess the same holds true in my mind for bicycles. I wear the helmet but now I'm thinking it will be equally enlightening if I can find more information on them and/or stats. I may find myself more and more interacting with traffic on the bicycle riding more often and farther etc.... so I'm kind of in the same boat as before.

    If indeed, there is little meaningful research or data to support helmet use as a +1 safety advantage, my time will be short spent and boring.

    Hopefully I can find some good news though and cite sources so others can make informed decisions if they wish to leave it to the number cruncher's.

  23. #123
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    There is a field of study called risk compensation. There have been many studies that have shown a correlation between an increased feeling of safety leads to higher levels of risk undertaken. It's generally thought that roughly half of the benefits of the safety measure are erased by the riskier behavior. One school of thought, homeostasis, believes the measure is fully negated by the increased risky behavior, but this hasn't proven out in most field observations.

    I'm not calling for people to stop wearing helmets, but understand that there is no simple formula to make your life safe. In fact, I would assume that most people who mountain bike are trying to put the risk back in their lives.

  24. #124
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    I'm a believer but I try to avoid preaching, limiting myself to times if/when I sense some misinformation I may be able to correct and cite related sources.
    It truly is everyone's personal choice unless certain locales make it mandatory such as our AFA here in Co Springs or I suppose, any military base. If your choice is not to ride there due to the rules, that's an option too.
    Widely accepted is the approx 2% death rate for bicyclists in traffic related fatalities.
    That number might just give all the credence needed to those that wave it off as an unnecessary part of the garb.

    Here is a link I found that has some information and one of the things I do when perusing something like this is try to look for the patterns or the big picture take-away otherwise you get bogged down very easily. I'll include the link and paste two other things for others to see that may be relevant.

    Bicycle Helmet Statistics

    * The IIHS is consistently the best source of bicycle fatality statistics on the Web. Their picture of a "typical" bicyclist killed on our roads would be a sober male over 16 not wearing a helmet riding on a major road between intersections in an urban area on a summer evening when hit by a car.

    ** Highlights of US statistics available from the US Department of Transportation: Traffic Safety Facts - 2011 Data (released in April, 2013 and still the most recent). The fatality numbers came from their 2012 motor vehicle crash report.


    726 bicyclists died on US roads in 2011 (682 in 2011. 1,003 back in 1975)
    48,000 bicyclists were injured in traffic 1n 2011 (52,000 in 2010)

    Bicyclists 15 and under killed in 2011: 85. (13%) Injured: 66,017 (23%)
    Bicyclist deaths represented 2.1% of all 2011 traffic fatalities.
    Average age of a bicyclist killed on US roads: 43 (36 in 2002)
    Average age of a bicyclist injured on US roads: 32 (28 in 2002)
    Males killed 85%. Males injured 78%.
    Nearly one fourth (23%) of the cyclists killed were drunk. (Blood alcohol over .08 g/dl)
    Fatal crashes typically were urban (69%) and not at intersections (59%).

  25. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Overhillthruthewoods View Post
    There is a field of study called risk compensation. There have been many studies that have shown a correlation between an increased feeling of safety leads to higher levels of risk undertaken.
    Excellent point and very relevant to the topic !

  26. #126
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    Re: Neurologist says bike helmets are useless

    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip View Post
    The catalyst for pushing through mandatory helmets on the pro road scene was the death of Andrei Kivilev, a former 4th place finisher in the Tour de France whose accident if I recall correctly was while riding uphill at relatively slow speeds (for pro roadies) and simply pitching forward quite awkwardly onto the front portion of his head.
    It was actually something similar, but it happened way before Kiviliev. It was 1992 Olympics medal winner Fabio Casartelli who got killed in TdF downhill sometime around 1994, 1995. His death was (one of) reason to get hard shell helmets mandatory in pro road racing. First it was so, they could take them off if stage had mountain finish, but year or two later, they became mandatory through all stages/races and you weren't allowed to take it off at all.
    And to be honest, modern helmets are actually cooler then no helmets in summer heat, so comfort or overheating is not an issue anymore. Even for most of pro riders nowadays helmets are normal thing and they wear them even during trainings. It could be, they have this in contract or they just realized helmets just might be beneficiary
    Primoz

  27. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by primoz View Post
    It was actually something similar, but it happened way before Kiviliev. It was 1992 Olympics medal winner Fabio Casartelli who got killed in TdF downhill sometime around 1994, 1995.
    Nope. The UCI tried it in the 1990s and the riders wouldn't have it. Mandatory helmets didn't get traction until after the Kivilev incident.

  28. #128
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    6 pages and all I have read is one side or the other.

    People in both camps seem to be ignoring facts, so here is the fact that gets to me.

    Most cycling helmets are painfully inadequate. they do something, but frankly, they're doing the bare minimum. even with roadies, these designs seem focused on protecting ONLY a top of the head impact.

    I get that cost and vanity play a factor here, but if someone commutes in dense traffic and wants to keep their face, ears, teeth and jaws. a DOT approved full face Motorcycle helmet will do so much better. you might look like a nerd for wearing it. but if prevention is what you aim for, get over it.

    I don't wear a helmet. I make sure my miss does. I'd like to as well, but honestly I'd rather wait till I can afford something better than a styrofoam brain strainer.
    Scott and some others are making MIPS helmets. which are a nice step up. but still. faces. keeping faces. protecting the back and sides of your skull. seems important.

  29. #129
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    I guess my memory is getting bad I went to check now, and you are right. I don't know why, but I had in my memory, helmets got obligatory after Casartelli's death, and not only in 2003.
    Primoz

  30. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agwan View Post
    6 pages and all I have read is one side or the other.

    People in both camps seem to be ignoring facts, so here is the fact that gets to me.

    Most cycling helmets are painfully inadequate. they do something, but frankly, they're doing the bare minimum. even with roadies, these designs seem focused on protecting ONLY a top of the head impact.

    I get that cost and vanity play a factor here, but if someone commutes in dense traffic and wants to keep their face, ears, teeth and jaws. a DOT approved full face Motorcycle helmet will do so much better. you might look like a nerd for wearing it. but if prevention is what you aim for, get over it.

    I don't wear a helmet. I make sure my miss does. I'd like to as well, but honestly I'd rather wait till I can afford something better than a styrofoam brain strainer.
    Scott and some others are making MIPS helmets. which are a nice step up. but still. faces. keeping faces. protecting the back and sides of your skull. seems important.
    Your distinctions mention on helmet design, coverage and protection are spot on. I wear full face on the motorcycle for reasons mentioned and there are cases where the impact region of a head injury demonstrates little chance a 'skid-lid' helmet would have saved a life.
    While f/f is ideal, so are 6 pt seat-belts, fire extinguishers and roll cages in a car or truck. I think we all determine our comfort in risk mitigation for various reasons ie; vanity, cost, comfort, mood, peer pressure, convenience etc...

    I don't think people are ignoring the facts. I think as the thread moves into 6 pages, the ideas and feedback become more nuanced.

    ** I have yet to find solid stats to quote but I'm just starting to look into it.
    As of late 1990's it seems a few sources were citing 'up to' 85% improved odds of surviving if wearing a helmet and later (2003 or so), many sources backed down and gave a range of 66% to 88%. The small percentage of deaths likely have a lot to do with limited statistics.

    As I stated in an earlier post, I try to look for patterns to see how I might improve my odds as statistics can reveal some things we can control;
    -Bright colors for a jacket or jersey and for the helmet would be a plus in traffic type environments where others can spot you more easily.
    -Blood alcohol level plays a part in bicycle deaths (almost 24%) and even higher in pedestrian/motorist encounters.
    -Lane or riding position like being hidden/masked by other moving objects etc....
    -Urban areas show higher representation of deaths. Where possible, one might change their route a bit if path systems are an alternative to heavy traffic areas. Even time of day or evening can make big difference. If working a different shift, it might be wise to consider the best shift to ride and the one to avoid.
    -Age shows up as those 43 and older having more deaths as well. This could be related to older riders not recovering as well. Also, the higher number may be related to more retreads getting back to bicycling or new bikers coming on for health/lifestyle reasons ie; If a higher number of riders (urban area commuters) are 43 and older, that would presumably reflect in the incident rates.

    As they used to say on one of them old Cop shows before many of you were born; Let's Be Careful Out There !!

  31. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agwan View Post
    I get that cost and vanity play a factor here, but if someone commutes in dense traffic and wants to keep their face, ears, teeth and jaws. a DOT approved full face Motorcycle helmet will do so much better. you might look like a nerd for wearing it. but if prevention is what you aim for, get over it.
    Anyone with experience commuting in traffic knows that unrestricted vision and hearing are vital to staying safe on the road and wearing a full face DOT motorcycle helmet is like putting on earplugs and blinders. Also there would probably be a lot more heat stroke related deaths than there are head injuries now.

    As for cycling helmets being flimsy try this- Find any old styrofoam bicycle helmet and a 20 oz framing hammer, set helmet on hard surface, firmly grasp hammer and give it all you got. Then whack it 3 or 4 more times even harder. Note that it is still mostly intact and try to imagine if you were putting that amount of force into an actual skull,

    And the argument about them not protecting the back of your head? Put one one and find a hard surface (road, etc.) and then try to bash any part of your skull on it, as long as the fit is decent a dollar and a donut says the helmet will make first contact every time.

  32. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by bachman1961 View Post
    Your distinctions mention on helmet design, coverage and protection are spot on. I wear full face on the motorcycle for reasons mentioned and there are cases where the impact region of a head injury demonstrates little chance a 'skid-lid' helmet would have saved a life.
    While f/f is ideal, so are 6 pt seat-belts, fire extinguishers and roll cages in a car or truck. I think we all determine our comfort in risk mitigation for various reasons ie; vanity, cost, comfort, mood, peer pressure, convenience etc...

    I don't think people are ignoring the facts. I think as the thread moves into 6 pages, the ideas and feedback become more nuanced.

    ** I have yet to find solid stats to quote but I'm just starting to look into it.
    As of late 1990's it seems a few sources were citing 'up to' 85% improved odds of surviving if wearing a helmet and later (2003 or so), many sources backed down and gave a range of 66% to 88%. The small percentage of deaths likely have a lot to do with limited statistics.

    As I stated in an earlier post, I try to look for patterns to see how I might improve my odds as statistics can reveal some things we can control;
    -Bright colors for a jacket or jersey and for the helmet would be a plus in traffic type environments where others can spot you more easily.
    -Blood alcohol level plays a part in bicycle deaths (almost 24%) and even higher in pedestrian/motorist encounters.
    -Lane or riding position like being hidden/masked by other moving objects etc....
    -Urban areas show higher representation of deaths. Where possible, one might change their route a bit if path systems are an alternative to heavy traffic areas. Even time of day or evening can make big difference. If working a different shift, it might be wise to consider the best shift to ride and the one to avoid.
    -Age shows up as those 43 and older having more deaths as well. This could be related to older riders not recovering as well. Also, the higher number may be related to more retreads getting back to bicycling or new bikers coming on for health/lifestyle reasons ie; If a higher number of riders (urban area commuters) are 43 and older, that would presumably reflect in the incident rates.

    As they used to say on one of them old Cop shows before many of you were born; Let's Be Careful Out There !!
    Thought this was a mountain bike forum? What's all this talk about road deaths etc? Of course you're gonna have serious injuries and fatalities in an environment populated with big old lumps of steel and plastic piloted by a great many less-than-sober, distracted, incompetent 'drivers', on a surface that is 100% unfriendly to the human form at any speed. Wearing any kind of helmet will mitigate the risk of injury or death in this situation, but there are just so many variables involved, getting hard scientific data to show anything concrete is not possible with the resources available to us.

    The best thing is to simply not ride on the road! Voila! I'll take my chances in a place where only I am responsible for my prat falls...
    It's all Here. Now.

  33. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Anyone with experience commuting in traffic knows that unrestricted vision and hearing are vital to staying safe on the road and wearing a full face DOT motorcycle helmet is like putting on earplugs and blinders. Also there would probably be a lot more heat stroke related deaths than there are head injuries now.

    As for cycling helmets being flimsy try this- Find any old styrofoam bicycle helmet and a 20 oz framing hammer, set helmet on hard surface, firmly grasp hammer and give it all you got. Then whack it 3 or 4 more times even harder. Note that it is still mostly intact and try to imagine if you were putting that amount of force into an actual skull,

    And the argument about them not protecting the back of your head? Put one one and find a hard surface (road, etc.) and then try to bash any part of your skull on it, as long as the fit is decent a dollar and a donut says the helmet will make first contact every time.
    Geez J.B. don't go and apply real-life experience and common sense to this thread. Next thing you'll be telling me to take the seatbelts off my bike. When you quit laughing, that was a real bill (for motorcycles) in the Nebraska Leglislature a few years back.
    The most expensive bike in the world is still cheaper than the cheapest open heart surgery.

  34. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by bachman1961 View Post
    As they used to say on one of them old Cop shows before many of you were born; Let's Be Careful Out There !!
    Ha - I'm not sure that really dates you as much as you think relative to many of the posters on this site, but that was one of the forefathers of the now ubiquitous modern gritty police TV drama.

  35. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by bachman1961 View Post
    As they used to say on one of them old Cop shows before many of you were born; Let's Be Careful Out There !!
    Michael Conrad, "Let's be careful out there" - YouTube
    The most expensive bike in the world is still cheaper than the cheapest open heart surgery.

  36. #136
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    I think the best way to solve this is to make a poll. Out of the people who have hit their head while wearing a helmet, who would rather not have been wearing one.

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  37. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Anyone with experience commuting in traffic knows that unrestricted vision and hearing are vital to staying safe on the road and wearing a full face DOT motorcycle helmet is like putting on earplugs and blinders. Also there would probably be a lot more heat stroke related deaths than there are head injuries now.

    As for cycling helmets being flimsy try this- Find any old styrofoam bicycle helmet and a 20 oz framing hammer, set helmet on hard surface, firmly grasp hammer and give it all you got. Then whack it 3 or 4 more times even harder. Note that it is still mostly intact and try to imagine if you were putting that amount of force into an actual skull,

    And the argument about them not protecting the back of your head? Put one one and find a hard surface (road, etc.) and then try to bash any part of your skull on it, as long as the fit is decent a dollar and a donut says the helmet will make first contact every time.
    I have years commuting in traffic, in fact I don't own a car anymore, that is how much I commute. and while I agree many motorcycle helmets severely diminish range of vision and hearing, some do not. lightweight, vented helmets exist. and the price is terrifying.

    I don't need to try that. at all. because flimsy is not the word I used. didn't use that word for a reason. I said they're inadequate, and they are.

    So try this. take that helmet. put it on. hit it 6 times with a hammer, how does your brain feel? yeah, maybe a higher grade of engineering could be used here. (ANd it is. with some helmets. MIPS.)

    As for that last bit. I don't have to test that either. I've worn a well fitted helmet in many accidents. of the few of those where my head hit the ground, it did something bad everytime. the 4 inches or so of mass it added to the back of my head made my neck hyper extend forward in the most painful way. and then I lost skin off the back of my head/neck. (not a lot, mind you.) The helmet definitely made first contact. then with virtually no loss of force my brain did. did you know that if you hit the back of your head incredibly hard you don't see for a second? fun stuff.

    My point is not whether or not helmets save lives. My point is they deserve to be better than they are.

  38. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockerc View Post
    Thought this was a mountain bike forum? What's all this talk about road deaths etc?

    The best thing is to simply not ride on the road Voila! I'll take my chances in a place where only I am responsible for my prat falls...
    I think my skull is so thick, I oughtn't need a helmet .... No idea how that one got by me.
    This is simply brilliant !

  39. #139
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    hey there truly is a complex and stats laden study about helmets you should all read and spend countless hours poring over the details and results of studies and dissected monkey brains.

    OR

    there is the huge tree --you will bounce off unexpectedly-- which did not show up on those stats charts.

    I don't know much about those studies from researchers in far off lands they are probably making all that crap up, you know...for science and to get the ladies.....

    but I do see trees every time I ride

  40. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agwan View Post
    So try this. take that helmet. put it on. hit it 6 times with a hammer, how does your brain feel? yeah, maybe a higher grade of engineering could be used here. (ANd it is. with some helmets. MIPS.)

    A heck of a lot better than without it, and MIPS wouldn't make any difference.

    A guy used to come my shop all the time wearing a full face motorcycle helmet and he was insane, pretty sure his brain got cooked.

  41. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by 127.0.0.1 View Post
    hey there truly is a complex and stats laden study about helmets you should all read and spend countless hours poring over the details and results of studies and dissected monkey brains.

    OR

    there is the huge tree --you will bounce off unexpectedly-- which did not show up on those stats charts.

    I don't know much about those studies from researchers in far off lands they are probably making all that crap up, you know...for science and to get the ladies.....

    but I do see trees every time I ride
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  42. #142
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    I think all can agree that bicycle helmets are not 100% effective though that is not a requirement for wearing one! There is a chance the airbags in your car may not work or may snap your neck so you better disable them...

    I wear a helmet on every ride.

    I'm not a candidate for live organ transplant just yet... except on Halloween.

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  43. #143
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    I love how one of his justifications for a helmet not helping is that he has only fallen off his bike 1 time. Good sample size there for a scientific study. How about he goes and falls off his bike and hits his head on the pavement 10 times with a helmet, then again 10 times without a helmet and come back and report his opinion on helmet usefulness. That is, if he could remember to come back after hitting his head on the pavement 10 times without a helmet....

    Personally, I figure the biggest risk to me when riding is other people/animals. I am pretty confident that I can keep myself upright most of the time, but I have no control over other people or animals I encounter who might take me out in one way or another. I can race a XC race and not have any issues, but then milling around in the parking lot I might bite it trying to avoid a car pulling out of a parking spot or just trying to talk with friends and losing balance going 2mph. My choice is the wear the helmet any time I am on the bike, no exceptions, not even in the driveway. On top of the safety side, I want to set a good example for the neighbor's young kids. I know some people like to pick and choose when they wear one, only thinking it is necessary on the more technical trails. In my experience, most of the bad crashes I have seen have been on the big, wide, straight, easy trails and were the result of someone else who came by out of control or something like a dog darting across. You don't get to know ahead of time when you are going to crash.

  44. #144
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    ^+100% on all that!

  45. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Overhillthruthewoods View Post
    Our entire sport is a calculated risk. God forbid you're not wearing a helmet and every mountain biker you come across has to comment upon it. Keep your opinions to yourself. If you won't go up to another total stranger and give them life tips then don't do it to other mountain bikers either. Most rational people think that riding a mountain bike is really dangerous and stupid, yet you continue to do it. Someone who isn't wearing a helmet is doing the same thing as you, it's just that their acceptable risk level is higher than yours. Feel free to think it's stupid, which it is, but keep it to yourself.
    Yes and No. If you're not smart enough to wear a lid I don't care if you see it to your next meal. I do care if you leave me with some sort of guilt for not stopping to move your limp body off the trail.
    what about when it becomes an access issue because a rider dies on a mountain bike. Will everyone be able to see past the fact that he wasn't wearing a helmet?
    count your blessings

  46. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by wizzer16 View Post
    Yes and No. If you're not smart enough to wear a lid I don't care if you see it to your next meal. I do care if you leave me with some sort of guilt for not stopping to move your limp body off the trail.
    what about when it becomes an access issue because a rider dies on a mountain bike. Will everyone be able to see past the fact that he wasn't wearing a helmet?
    Why are you smart enough to wear a helmet, but not a full face and neck brace every time you ride? Spine injuries are more likely than severe head trauma in mountain biking and the long term consequences are just as if not more debilitating. Yet you choose to risk me having to move your limp body and potentially risk trail closures due to your incorrect risk assessment. Why aren't you wearing body armor? How about not riding over a set speed limit? In fact, why are you mountain biking at all? Don't you know it's dangerous and selfish?

    I understand the issues at play, but using slippery slope, and hyperbole arguments as you did and I reciprocated isn't a rational approach to talk about the topic.

  47. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agwan View Post
    ... the 4 inches or so of mass it added to the back of my head made my neck hyper extend forward in the most painful way. ...
    That is another good point to bring up. When you wear a helmet, there will be a certain small percentage of cases where you wouldn't have otherwise hit anything with your head, except you were wearing a helmet, which added to the circumference of your head enough to make contact. This happens to me all the time in work on the railroad as a car inspector, where they mandate I wear a safety helmet, and I hit items like the luggage racks semi-often because the extra bulk of the helmet cannot be processed by my brain as fully or completely as my own naked head. Without the helmet, I actually bang my head alot less as it removes such false-positives.

    Not to mention the matter of risk compensation discussed before, the fact that drivers are shown to drive closer to and more aggressively around riders with helmets, and the fact that it deters people from cycling which leads to increase health risk from sedentarism, etc.

  48. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by Overhillthruthewoods View Post
    Most rational people think that riding a mountain bike is really dangerous and stupid...
    Sheesh, exaggerate much?

  49. #149
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    Neurologist says bike helmets are useless

    Neuro Surgeon. I work with surgeons. If there's another group of people who are as arrogant and think they know more, I hope I never meet them.
    They exist and they're known as "roadies" next best: ski racers

    He's a neuro surgeon. He's not a physicist. He's not a safety engineer. The only thing he know about head injury is how to fix the damage after it happens.
    Personally I have whacked my head pretty good on tree branches and was glad I was wearing my helmet.
    This


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  50. #150
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    Neurologist says bike helmets are useless

    Quote Originally Posted by DethWshBkr View Post
    Well, if you wear it like the dill-hole on the page -

    Attachment 897510

    Then yes, the helmet is worthless.
    Clearly, this guy is fixing to skate on his inlines, not ride a bike. Either way, he's toast if he crashes and hits his head


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