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  1. #101
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    A question for the "anything with a motor is a motorcycle"crowd:

    Your stance would preclude ebikers from building their own trail systems, as they would have to allow motorcycles to use them.

    Is this your intent, or have you not thought it through?

    Sent from my SM-P900 using Tapatalk

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by andytiedye View Post
    A question for the "anything with a motor is a motorcycle"crowd:

    Your stance would preclude ebikers from building their own trail systems, as they would have to allow motorcycles to use them.

    Is this your intent, or have you not thought it through?

    Sent from my SM-P900 using Tapatalk





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  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    In case the idea went completely over your head, most of us don't care.
    Yeeeeeip. Do what you like, just do it somewhere else.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by andytiedye View Post
    A question for the "anything with a motor is a motorcycle"crowd:

    Your stance would preclude ebikers from building their own trail systems, as they would have to allow motorcycles to use them.

    Is this your intent, or have you not thought it through?

    Sent from my SM-P900 using Tapatalk
    E-bikers are fully free to buy their own mountain, dig their own trails, maintain said trails, create their own rules, and ride to their heart's content.
    Is this where I write something witty?

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by andytiedye View Post
    A question for the "anything with a motor is a motorcycle"crowd:

    Your stance would preclude ebikers from building their own trail systems, as they would have to allow motorcycles to use them.

    Is this your intent, or have you not thought it through?

    Sent from my SM-P900 using Tapatalk
    We've had a name for this type of motorcycle for decades- moped. Moped riders need to distinguish themselves from their other motorcycle brethren if they want to have special privileges, just like mountain bikers have had to.

    I think i feel the same as most cyclists- electric mopeds are really fun, and a great alternative for a lot of people and circumstances. I like them. I hate them being legislated or advocated as bicycles though; they're not bicycles.
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  6. #106
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    Click the popup on AdBlock. No more survey popup

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmg71 View Post
    they haven't got e-brakes or e-steering yet, but I guess thats coming soon
    Does this count?

    https://www.bosch-ebike.com/en/products/abs/

    The Bosch motor for ebikes is a derivitive of their automotive power steering motor, so sorta.

    We visited the official Bosch eBike training! | ebikeee.com

    There's basically ebike versions of everything bike related, it's the new enduro.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    Does this count?

    https://www.bosch-ebike.com/en/products/abs/

    The Bosch motor for ebikes is a derivitive of their automotive power steering motor, so sorta.

    We visited the official Bosch eBike training! | ebikeee.com

    There's basically ebike versions of everything bike related, it's the new enduro.
    At this point, it's become essentially a motorcycle or dirt bike. I'm a little more disgusted.
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  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by primoz View Post
    I just came from 2 weeks of riding in Alps and Dolomites (I'm more of XC guy, so I ride uphill myself too) and I can tell you you don't need anything for ebikes... I'm far from slow or unfit, and I can reach 1000+W on test for about 1.5-2min, yet people in jeans and flipflops, and seat seat 10cm to low, on 25kg emtb bikes, were overtaking me on steep long climbs. Those 250W (if locked) are more then enough, that you don't even sweat when "climbing" up 25% climb under scourging sun. So when people say they still need to push, it's really you need to spin your legs easily to set speed, while motor does the job. Basically same, as motorbike drives still needs to push gas handle on handlebar... about same effort.
    Try telling that to the guys in this thread:
    Ebikes are getting people fit. Good article.

    They keep talking about how someone on an eBike CAN get a better workout if they push themselves that someone on a pedal bike, and while that might hold some merit, the vast majority of eBike riders are not going to be doing that.
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  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghettocruiser View Post
    I was okay with the commuting aspect of e-bikes.

    Or at least, I was until this guy almost took me down.

    Teach me not to dawdle on the bike path.
    That is not an eBike, that is an electric scooter. Not the same at all.
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  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    That is not an eBike, that is an electric scooter. Not the same at all.
    You're joking, right? One has a hand throttle, one has a foot throttle. They're functionally identical to anyone not riding the device.


    Have you never ridden an electric moped and a motor scooter and that's a source of confusion, or is this an official mtbr position and you're just towing the lie?
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  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    Try telling that to the guys in this thread:...
    Bollocks isn't it? I've been panting up a hill while three guys on eBikes buzzed past laughing and joking.

  13. #113
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    ^^^Anybody have any popcorn they could spare? I’m going to settle in here for the long haul.

    Wait for it, wait for it...
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
    I passionately remove rocks and corners and other stuff I find too hard to ride.

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    ^^^Anybody have any popcorn they could spare? I’m going to settle in here for the long haul.

    Wait for it, wait for it...
    You're going to be disappointed.


    Amusingly, i had a head-on collision with an electric moped rider on the trail in ghettocruiser's video. It used to be my work commute. Broke the front half of my road bike and fractured my finger. Dude hopped on his bike and rode away. I don't blame e-bikes, the outcome would have been the same regardless- he came around a blind corner in my lane and was twice my size. (although really, what are the odds of encountering a 400lb dude on a bicycle going uphill in the oncoming lane at 20mph without a motor...?)
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  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by scottzg View Post
    You're joking, right? One has a hand throttle, one has a foot throttle. They're functionally identical to anyone not riding the device.


    Have you never ridden an electric moped and a motor scooter and that's a source of confusion, or is this an official mtbr position and you're just towing the lie?
    I am not joking.

    In that video you linked was a man riding a scooter, the only difference between it and an ICE scooter is the motor being electric.

    an eBike, specifically a pedelec is vastly different. Please don't be obtuse about this.

    Frankly that scooter has no business being on a bike path lke the one you were riding, but I would see very little issue having a pedelec eBike being on such a path.
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  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by primoz View Post
    I just came from 2 weeks of riding in Alps and Dolomites (I'm more of XC guy, so I ride uphill myself too) and I can tell you you don't need anything for ebikes... I'm far from slow or unfit, and I can reach 1000+W on test for about 1.5-2min, yet people in jeans and flipflops, and seat seat 10cm to low, on 25kg emtb bikes, were overtaking me on steep long climbs. Those 250W (if locked) are more then enough, that you don't even sweat when "climbing" up 25% climb under scourging sun. So when people say they still need to push, it's really you need to spin your legs easily to set speed, while motor does the job. Basically same, as motorbike drives still needs to push gas handle on handlebar... about same effort.


    Based on this, that obviously riding motor that looks like mtb up on mtb trails is considered cycling, I guess you already "run" faster then Bolt... I'm sure you drive faster with car then those 40km/h Bolt is running. So if riding motorbike, errr sorry e-mtb I meant, means cycling, then riding car equals running
    You gotta go through specific motions for it to be associated with a certain discipline. If you're not steering in an motorized kayak similarly to how you do so in a normal kayak (e.g. using rudder or thrust vectoring instead of paddle), there's reason to say it's not like kayaking.

    There's something called an "auto-belay" system in rock climbing. It's a line anchored at the top which you clip onto your harness, that automatically retracts to keep tension on the line as you climb up. You might think that it's for safety, but people often use it to descend easily, rather than climb back down, by basically just letting go and trusting it to lower them.

    Your emtb story sounds good to me, enjoying the experience in what they came in without needing to optimize gear and setup, though I'd question if those people weren't sweating. Motor vehicles take virtually no effort to drive on straight, level, smooth terrain during well-lighted, open, lukewarm, and calm conditions. 25% grade under scourging sun... the easiest I'd imagine that to be is like walking on sand at the beach during the early afternoon, in a similar outfit. Gas handle on the handlebar, eh?

    Some people prefer to hike/walk instead of run or sprint, perhaps socializing while they do it. In mtn biking, riding technical stuff at low speed is arguably harder than riding with momentum. Riding technical stuff with weight weenie minimalist equipment is arguably harder than with stouter heavier equipment that offers more control. Riding technical stuff while exhausted is arguably harder than riding while feeling fresh and full of energy. I don't mean to start some profiling, but I get the impression that exhausted riders who are unexperienced at riding at speed, using lightweight gear that makes climbs less of a sufferfest, disrespect the trail more than average riders. I would recommend these walker/hiker social types an emtb instead of a typical high end mtb... I'd hate for them to turn into an arrogant dick who may think that they made themselves better through suffering, to the point that they think they're doing everyone a service by making them suffer through their attitude too.

  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    I am not joking.

    In that video you linked was a man riding a scooter, the only difference between it and an ICE scooter is the motor being electric.

    an eBike, specifically a pedelec is vastly different. Please don't be obtuse about this.

    Frankly that scooter has no business being on a bike path lke the one you were riding, but I would see very little issue having a pedelec eBike being on such a path.
    I didn't post the video, but it's obtuse or willful ignorance to pretend there's any difference between foot throttle and hand throttle. It's really weird that you don't see the difference. I equate it to inexperience, personal gain, financial gain, or myopia from local riding conditions. It's ok, i've been on that side before, too.


    Personally, i'm waaaaaay more OK with motor scooters on bike paths than i am with e-mopeds on trails, but that's 2 different topics.
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  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by scottzg View Post
    I didn't post the video, but it's obtuse or willful ignorance to pretend there's any difference between foot throttle and hand throttle. It's really weird that you don't see the difference. I equate it to inexperience, personal gain, financial gain, or myopia from local riding conditions. It's ok, i've been on that side before, too.


    Personally, i'm waaaaaay more OK with motor scooters on bike paths than i am with e-mopeds on trails, but that's 2 different topics.
    The throttle has nothing to do with the difference between these 2:
    MTBR eBike "Survey"-ebike-commuter.jpg
    Name:  escooter bmw.png
Views: 336
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    I am not the one with willful ignorance claiming the 2 are exactly the same and should be treated the same.


    When it comes to eMTB's on trails I have mixed feelings still and think the Jury is still out on that topic, but the uphill closing speed is very concerning.
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  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    The throttle has nothing to do with the difference between these 2:
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Name:  escooter bmw.png
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    I am not the one with willful ignorance claiming the 2 are exactly the same and should be treated the same.
    Yes they are fundamentally the same thing. It's weird to me that someone would make your argument. Maybe i've spent too many years bike commuting to understand an outsiders' (non-cyclist couch potato) perspective.




    With those two vehicles the questions are much more interesting. Do you allow the e-moped to split lanes? Do you allow the scooter on bike paths? Do you ticket the e-moped when the doofus rides on the sidewalk? The scooter in the bike lane? How do you structure state/local laws and city planning decisions to encourage these vehicles' use while having firmly understood/obeyed rules? Much more interesting questions, but they won't be addressed here. As someone invested in city planning and a lover of alternative transportation, this is super frustrating.
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  20. #120
    Bicycles aren't motorized
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    They both have motors. Only the willfully ignorant don't acknowledge that. Keep arguing over incremental differences but even my little grandson can tell you they're both motorized and not bicycles.
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  21. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    I am not the one with willful ignorance claiming the 2 are exactly the same and should be treated the same.
    Quote Originally Posted by City of Toronto
    City Council amend Toronto Municipal Code, Chapter 886, Footpaths, Pedestrian Ways, Bicycle Paths, Bicycle Lanes and Cycle Tracks, to permit the use of powerassisted bicycles (“pedelecs” and “e-scooters”) in conventional, painted bicycle lanes, as described in Appendix B attached to the report (December 9, 2013) from the General Manager, Transportation Services.

    Motorized vehicles of any type are not permitted on bike paths. Motorized vehicles (including e-bikes) may not be used on park multi-use paths. If a motorized vehicle is used on a park path, the rider/driver may be fined $305.00 by bylaw enforcement officers. The Waterfront Multi-Use path, Don Valley* & Humber Multi-use paths, are all considered parklands
    * Location of Video

    Different, but the same, apparently.
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  22. #122
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    I understand why many of us are so emotional when it comes to ebikes and trail access. I, for one, have mixed feelings about them on my already crowded local multi use trails. But I can imagine going on some long back country rides with them... https://sierratrails.org/riding-downieville-on-ebikes/

  23. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghettocruiser View Post
    * Location of Video

    Different, but the same, apparently.
    I'm confused. They created a new definition: powerassisted bicycle ("pedelec"), which people call an ebike (class 1) here. Then next line can be misinterpreted, since uses the name ebike. People can use reverse logic to say an ebike is a motor vehicle and is being banned. It's unclear if a pedelec is defined as a motorized vehicle or not, according to the City of Toronto. Claiming it to be different, but the same, is jumping to conclusions, based on what little info you quoted.

    Edit: did my own research. Pedelec = bicycle, not motor vehicle.

    Quote Originally Posted by City of Toronto
    City Council amend the City of Toronto Municipal Code Chapter 608, Parks; Municipal Code Chapter 886, Footpaths, Pedestrian Ways, Bicycle Paths, Bicycle Lanes and Cycle Tracks; and Municipal Code Chapter 950, Traffic and Parking to delete the existing definitions of bicycles, as described in Appendix A attached to this report, and replace them with the following harmonized definition of bicycle:

    BICYCLE – Includes a bicycle, tricycle, unicycle, and a power-assisted bicycle which weighs less than 40 kg and requires pedalling for propulsion (“pedelec”), or other similar vehicle, but does not include any vehicle or bicycle capable of being propelled or driven solely by any power other than muscular power.
    MTBR eBike "Survey"-c7eibh9.jpg

    The guy was on an ebike, but it was more specifically an e-scooter, which isn't defined or regulated like a pedelec or bicycle. Guess we need to start using more specific vocab, just like how we say mtb and not bike, to avoid confusion with other bikes. Lets just say that this could be a common source of confusion, even among the most "reputable" among us...

    Source:
    https://www.toronto.ca/services-paym...g-and-the-law/
    Agenda Item History - 2014.PW28.2

  24. #124
    Bicycles aren't motorized
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    Quote Originally Posted by ninjichor View Post
    I'm confused. They created a new definition: powerassisted bicycle ("pedelec"), which people call an ebike (class 1) here. Then next line can be misinterpreted, since uses the name ebike. People can use reverse logic to say an ebike is a motor vehicle and is being banned. It's unclear if a pedelec is defined as a motorized vehicle or not, according to the City of Toronto. Claiming it to be different, but the same, is jumping to conclusions, based on what little info you quoted.

    Edit: did my own research. Pedelec = bicycle, not motor vehicle.



    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	c7eIBh9.jpg 
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    The guy was on an ebike, but it was more specifically an e-scooter, which isn't defined or regulated like a pedelec or bicycle. Guess we need to start using more specific vocab, just like how we say mtb and not bike, to avoid confusion with other bikes. Lets just say that this could be a common source of confusion, even among the most "reputable" among us...

    Source:
    https://www.toronto.ca/services-paym...g-and-the-law/
    Agenda Item History - 2014.PW28.2



    We can use bicycle to describe bikes without motors. The motor vehicle codes don't apply to mtb's. The continued efforts to cloak e-motorized cycles in terms that apply to human powered bicycles is dishonest and is simply a propaganda effort on the behalf of motorized cycle interests.
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  25. #125
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    Pedelec is the EU classification, 250w and 15.5 mph cut off, US Class 1 is 750w and 20mph, they're not interchangeable.

  26. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    Pedelec is the EU classification, 250w and 15.5 mph cut off, US Class 1 is 750w and 20mph, they're not interchangeable.
    Canada pedelec 500W 32 km/h.

    Class 1 isn't a fed regulation, just a proposal that some states adopted.

  27. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    Pedelec is the EU classification, 250w and 15.5 mph cut off, US Class 1 is 750w and 20mph, they're not interchangeable.
    I live in Scotland and in certain situation 250w still looks pretty fast.

  28. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    I live in Scotland and in certain situation 250w still looks pretty fast.
    That's cause it is. That's basically doubling some average rider's race pace. It's not hard to pedal 50 lbs bikes. It only "sucks" to accelerate them (if you're used to lightweight bikes).

  29. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by ninjichor View Post
    That's cause it is. That's basically doubling some average rider's race pace.
    I saw a guy wheelie away from an up-hill switch-back today in a way that I think would be impossible for an unassisted rider to do.

  30. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    I saw a guy wheelie away from an up-hill switch-back today in a way that I think would be impossible for an unassisted rider to do.
    I'll add that to one of the things I want to try...

    Saw some uphill flow 2 video where they showed a few tricks. One involved turning the bike around while dismounted, that looked pretty slick.

  31. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by ninjichor View Post
    Canada pedelec 500W 32 km/h.

    Class 1 isn't a fed regulation, just a proposal that some states adopted.
    I admit I had no idea that Toronto residents are legally supposed to call a bicycle with an electric assist motor a bicycle and not an e-bike. And I have not seen the word "pedelec" until yesterday.

    But how does that speed limit define the vehicle type?

    What if a pedelec seemed to be going significantly faster than 32 kph ?

    I really hope you guys enjoy that crappy video, because I was trying to keep up with that idiot on my mountain bike.
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    Mopeds and e bikes are no comparison. Mopeds don't pedal well without power, go faster but not fast enough and get far less respect from auto/truck drivers because of the slow higher speeds. Fast enough to be dangerous for autos to pass in limited site areas, to slow to mix with traffic. Definitely not my cup of tea, teenager trash.

    I will call it an e bike if it rides very well without power, doesn't go as fast and doesn't have motor noise.

    I did get a chance to try an e moped a guy built and licenced. A 5000 watt machine. Fantastic acceleration, only about 35-40 mph top end but way fun on ATV trails. Not much range and long charge times. Without power his bike also pedaled like I was trying to tow start a dozer. In the end I would rather have the brapp and quick charge at the gas pump.

    A motor assisted bicycle has got to feel like a bicycle and sound like one, otherwise its a moped or a motorcycle.

    As far as politicians and access goes. They want everyone to go along to get along otherwise its easier to just deny access to all. They don't want to hear a bunch of whining and bickering over semantics.

    These are my personal opinions and do not reflect the idiocy in real life. There is no substitute for etiquette and common sense.

  33. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by PierreR View Post
    Mopeds and e bikes are no comparison. Mopeds don't pedal well without power, go faster but not fast enough and get far less respect from auto/truck drivers because of the slow higher speeds. Fast enough to be dangerous for autos to pass in limited site areas, to slow to mix with traffic. Definitely not my cup of tea, teenager trash.

    I will call it an e bike if it rides very well without power, doesn't go as fast and doesn't have motor noise.

    I did get a chance to try an e moped a guy built and licenced. A 5000 watt machine. Fantastic acceleration, only about 35-40 mph top end but way fun on ATV trails. Not much range and long charge times. Without power his bike also pedaled like I was trying to tow start a dozer. In the end I would rather have the brapp and quick charge at the gas pump.

    A motor assisted bicycle has got to feel like a bicycle and sound like one, otherwise its a moped or a motorcycle.

    As far as politicians and access goes. They want everyone to go along to get along otherwise its easier to just deny access to all. They don't want to hear a bunch of whining and bickering over semantics.

    These are my personal opinions and do not reflect the idiocy in real life. There is no substitute for etiquette and common sense.
    Take a US Class 1 ebike to Europe and it magically turns into a moped, btw.
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  34. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by ninjichor View Post
    That's cause it is. That's basically doubling some average rider's race pace. It's not hard to pedal 50 lbs bikes. It only "sucks" to accelerate them (if you're used to lightweight bikes).
    Massive understatement! I have a 380w FTP. It's not gonna get me in to the TDF (cuz i'm too fat), but it's an uncommon amount of power. A 250w assist bike and a couch potato with a heart condition will blow me away. I've seen it.

    Once a motor is in the equation it all goes out the window.
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    You'll experience TdF legs with motor assist, while us average folks experience mere "world cup" legs. Problem is that the rest of your body needs to be proportionally stronger to handle the bike being propelled by such power. Not going to expect anyone to hop on and harness the power-assist as if it were a natural extension of their own input. You're still limited by the gearing... how fast can you go with the chain turning a 34x10 gear combo at the top end? Probably doesn't need higher, considering the motor cutoff. It's mainly just the climbs, and how people have the option to cut out the suffering/physical challenge that sort of makes mtb kind of an exclusive sport. I expect people to be able to climb up to 2x faster than their usual climbing speed. 7 mph to 14... that's like flat level ground speed. xD

  36. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by ninjichor View Post
    ... how fast can you go with the chain turning a 34x10 gear combo at the top end?

    I averaged over 30mph on a 5 mile long 2% downgrade a few weeks ago and topped out close to 50mph. I didn't have 34/10 though, just a 34/11.
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  37. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by scottzg View Post
    Yes they are fundamentally the same thing. It's weird to me that someone would make your argument. Maybe i've spent too many years bike commuting to understand an outsiders' (non-cyclist couch potato) perspective.




    With those two vehicles the questions are much more interesting. Do you allow the e-moped to split lanes? Do you allow the scooter on bike paths? Do you ticket the e-moped when the doofus rides on the sidewalk? The scooter in the bike lane? How do you structure state/local laws and city planning decisions to encourage these vehicles' use while having firmly understood/obeyed rules? Much more interesting questions, but they won't be addressed here. As someone invested in city planning and a lover of alternative transportation, this is super frustrating.
    Are you calling me a non-cyclist Couch Potato?

    That is pretty rude to start attacking me on a personal level because you do not understand the difference between a electric powered scooter that has no pedals and a eBike that has pedals... While they both have wheels and an electric motor, they are not the same and should not be treated as the same. Please do not have such a narrow minded view of what those products are.

    The BMW eScooter pictured has more in common with a gasoline powered scooter than it does with a Pedelec.

    How they should be regulated on the streets would be up to your local government. Currently in California the BMW eScooter would be treated the same as a motorcycle, one would need a motorcycle license, Insurance and a helmet to ride one. It would not be allowed in bike lanes, but would have to share the lanes with automobile traffic.

    The Pedelec would be treated the same as a Bicycle per California law for road use, no license needed, no helmet if over 18, no insurance. While I do not 100% agree with the laws on this where I live, that is what they currently are.
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  38. #138
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    These are pedal assisted and are considered "bicycle" by some authority.
    (Since they have pedals)
    Commuter GT ~ GoGreen Ebikes

    Anyone who thinks that these are "Assisted Bicycles" are either blind , stoopyd , or an eBike dealer.
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  39. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by fokof View Post
    These are pedal assisted and are considered "bicycle" by some authority.
    (Since they have pedals)
    Commuter GT ~ GoGreen Ebikes

    Anyone who thinks that these are "Assisted Bicycles" are either blind , stoopyd , or an eBike dealer.
    "This high tech performance unit blurs the distinction between moped and electric bicycle."

    They even admit in the marketing material they are doing their best to blur the lines and thus "skirt the law" with a unit like that. I would not call that a Pedlec eBike, that is more of a moped scooter..... not to mention it is ugly. Once you start building up that much cladding on a device it is (IMO) more similar to a motorcycle than a bicycle. I would never consider that an eBike and I have a feeling neither would most police officers if they saw someone riding it on the street without a helmet or the ability to provide a motorcycle license and proof of insurance.
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  40. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by fokof View Post
    These are pedal assisted and are considered "bicycle" by some authority.
    (Since they have pedals)
    Commuter GT ~ GoGreen Ebikes

    Anyone who thinks that these are "Assisted Bicycles" are either blind , stoopyd , or an eBike dealer.
    Segways and "hoverboards" are considered to be ebikes too, at least when it comes to import duty classification.

    These YikeBike things too:



    Pretty much anything with 2 wheels and electric motor... more evidence to use more specific terms, yea?

    Future is here, and more is coming. Maybe once the emtb pedelec thing settles down, there'll be controversy over the next thing. Maybe about some FPV drone racing pilots and then "landspeeders" flying through the forest...

    I believe the term to describe people who cling to the past, refusing to adapt to ongoing changes, is to call them "washed up". I recall Shaun Palmer criticizing DH racing today, comparing it to how it was during his time, as if it's a totally different sport since bike tech has improved so much. I think he's since changed his tune, seeing how modern DHers train even harder. Some XC guys see DHers in the same light, as do DH racers seeing Enduro racers. It's more like that it's just a different discipline. Just shows how ignorant and disrespectful people are, when they judge others in such a generalized manner, hence why slander is returned. Those that respect new DH might have called Shaun Palmer washed up, in defense of their discipline against his criticism, but now that he's opened his eyes and realized his ignorance, I think he's been forgiven.

  41. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    Are you calling me a non-cyclist Couch Potato?

    That is pretty rude to start attacking me on a personal level because you do not understand the difference between a electric powered scooter that has no pedals and a eBike that has pedals... While they both have wheels and an electric motor, they are not the same and should not be treated as the same. Please do not have such a narrow minded view of what those products are.

    The BMW eScooter pictured has more in common with a gasoline powered scooter than it does with a Pedelec.

    How they should be regulated on the streets would be up to your local government. Currently in California the BMW eScooter would be treated the same as a motorcycle, one would need a motorcycle license, Insurance and a helmet to ride one. It would not be allowed in bike lanes, but would have to share the lanes with automobile traffic.

    The Pedelec would be treated the same as a Bicycle per California law for road use, no license needed, no helmet if over 18, no insurance. While I do not 100% agree with the laws on this where I live, that is what they currently are.
    No, i didn't mean to call you a couch potato. Totally looks like i did though, sorry.

    The escooter and the emoped are both motorized 2 wheeled vehicles. One may be faster than the other, but a prius doesn't become a go-kart because ferrari exists.

    I don't understand why it's important whether it has pedals or not. My car has pedals, it's not a bicycle either. Even if it's idling along and i help push. The difference between a bicycle and a motorcycle is one has a motor. If we want to allow certain motorcycles on bike paths that's a different question.


    The law is what it is because it's financially advantageous to special interests throw away our ability to legislate mopeds as their own class of vehicle. It's myopic and it threatens the rights of cyclists.



    I totally want mopeds to take off and thrive, they're cool. ...But they're not bicycles. ...And that e-scooter is cooler... who would want a moped if that thing qualified as a bicycle?

    ...Actually, masquerading as a bicycle is essential for the success of the electric moped, isn't it?
    "Things that are complex are not useful, Things that are useful are simple."
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  42. #142
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    So I've done some further reading, and in Ontario, I don't think the BMW bike would qualify as an E-bike due to the lack of pedals. Pedals, no mater how useless, appear to be a requirement for a license-free and insurance-free ride.

    It would seem to me that unused pedals sticking that far out would create serious cornering hazards.

    MTBR eBike "Survey"-ebike-cornering.jpg

    But that guy seemed to have his high-speed bike path cornering down pretty well.
    The above statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration

  43. #143
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    I got an idea! Why don't we just draw a line between motorized and non-motorized!

    Nah, that'd be too easy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oh My Sack! View Post
    Remember, there's always quilting and knitting if pedalling becomes too tough.

  44. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    I got an idea! Why don't we just draw a line between motorized and non-motorized!

    Nah, that'd be too easy.
    Whoa! That would be really simple, Doh!
    "The man was born on third and thinks he hit a triple. But instead of running home, he ran to second base."

  45. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    I got an idea! Why don't we just draw a line between motorized and non-motorized!
    Because apparently, eBikes are not motorized.

  46. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghettocruiser View Post
    So I've done some further reading, and in Ontario, I don't think the BMW bike would qualify as an E-bike due to the lack of pedals. Pedals, no mater how useless, appear to be a requirement for a license-free and insurance-free ride.

    It would seem to me that unused pedals sticking that far out would create serious cornering hazards.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    But that guy seemed to have his high-speed bike path cornering down pretty well.
    It's an ebike.

    The reading I did makes it pretty clear that it's not regulated like a typical non-motorized bicycle though. Words directly from the amendment regarding ebikes:

    "BICYCLE – Includes a bicycle, tricycle, unicycle, and a power-assisted bicycle which weighs less than 40 kg and requires pedalling for propulsion (“pedelec”), or other similar vehicle, but does not include any vehicle or bicycle capable of being propelled or driven solely by any power other than muscular power."

  47. #147
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    So, if i buy that BMW scooter and promise not to use more than 750w, does it transform into an ebike?
    "Things that are complex are not useful, Things that are useful are simple."
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  48. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    Because apparently, eBikes are not motorized.



    E-motorbikes have magical powers that defy the laws of physics.
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  49. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghettocruiser View Post
    So I've done some further reading, and in Ontario, I don't think the BMW bike would qualify as an E-bike due to the lack of pedals. Pedals, no mater how useless, appear to be a requirement for a license-free and insurance-free ride.

    It would seem to me that unused pedals sticking that far out would create serious cornering hazards.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Ebike cornering.jpg 
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    But that guy seemed to have his high-speed bike path cornering down pretty well.
    That is a pretty lame way to define the difference..... Putting pedals on a scooter does not make it a eBike (IMO) no matter what the law says.


    Now if I can manage to convert my suburbans push pedal so that some of my energy assists in powering the wheels I could take it on bike paths!
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  50. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by scottzg View Post
    So, if i buy that BMW scooter and promise not to use more than 750w, does it transform into an ebike?
    Is it not already an ebike? To make it fit into the same classification of non-motorized bicycle laws, you'd have to consider the definitions in your region. Does your region dictate a maximum weight (40kg?), method of propulsion (pedaling?), maximum motor cut-off speed (25 km/h?)? Think it already fails all 3 for most regions, yet still can be called an ebike simply because it has 2 wheels and an electric motor.

  51. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by ninjichor View Post
    Is it not already an ebike? To make it fit into the same classification of non-motorized bicycle laws, you'd have to consider the definitions in your region. Does your region dictate a maximum weight (40kg?), method of propulsion (pedaling?), maximum motor cut-off speed (25 km/h?)? Think it already fails all 3 for most regions, yet still can be called an ebike simply because it has 2 wheels and an electric motor.
    Oh, my region has decided that what qualifies as an e-bike is basically arbitrary. Realistically i'm more concerned that due to my weight, top speed, and power output i'm gonna be classified as an e-bike myself. That's gonna wreck havoc on my taxes.

    Give me a pacemaker and i'd have no chance in court.
    "Things that are complex are not useful, Things that are useful are simple."
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  52. #152
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    Perhaps we should take this to a court of law, where all will be made clear.

    https://nationalpost.com/news/canada...r-broken-pedal

    Quote Originally Posted by The National Post
    The Highway Traffic Act does not classify e-bikes as motorized vehicles. You don’t need a driver’s licence or insurance. The bike must have pedals and can’t go faster than 42 km/h. The driver must be at least 16 years of age and wearing a helmet.

    Problems occur when someone removes the pedals. The e-bike no longer conforms to the Highway Traffic Act definition of a power-assisted bicycle.

    The officer and the Crown believed that since the pedal was broken, the e-bike was a motorized vehicle, in essence, a motorcycle — and Eybel needed a licence and insurance. The justice disagreed.
    The above statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration

  53. #153
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    ...Clear as Mud.

    Edit: I'm pretty sure that the City bylaws and regulations cannot override the provincial HTA, so this case remains precedent-setting, if confusing.
    The above statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration

  54. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    That is a pretty lame way to define the difference..... Putting pedals on a scooter does not make it a eBike (IMO) no matter what the law says.
    Yep
    And putting a motor on a bike doesn't make it a Bicycle either
    Putting a motor on a bicycle makes it .......... drum roll ........ A motorcycle
    "There is a big difference between kneeling down and bending over" -FZ

  55. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by fokof View Post
    Yep
    And putting a motor on a bike doesn't make it a Bicycle either
    Putting a motor on a bicycle makes it .......... drum roll ........ A motorcycle
    While I would not call a Class 1 Pedelec a "motorcycle", I do understand why some do. However to keep things civil on this website it is recommended users not call eBikes Motorcycles.

    No one is going to look at an actual Motorcycle and confuse it with a Pedelec eBike.
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  56. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    No one is going to look at an actual Motorcycle and confuse it with a Pedelec eBike.
    I do
    And it looks like a lot of MTBRers are too.
    Ain't that what that survey is all about ?

    I saw the "don't call an eBike Motorcycle" sticky in the E-Bike forum , thought we could name them with the M-word everywhere else.
    "There is a big difference between kneeling down and bending over" -FZ

  57. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by fokof View Post
    I do
    And it looks like a lot of MTBRers are too.
    Ain't that what that survey is all about ?

    I saw the "don't call an eBike Motorcycle" sticky in the E-Bike forum , thought we could name them with the M-word everywhere else.



    Moped, Motorcycle. It's like potato, potatoe. It just isn't a bicycle despite what the sycophants would have you believe.
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  58. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by fokof View Post
    I do
    And it looks like a lot of MTBRers are too.
    Ain't that what that survey is all about ?

    I saw the "don't call an eBike Motorcycle" sticky in the E-Bike forum , thought we could name them with the M-word everywhere else.
    While everyone is certainly entitled to their own opinion, I do not think this is up for debate, the following 2 pictures show that motorcycles and eBikes do not look similar enough to be mistaken for one another.

    MTBR eBike "Survey"-vstar.jpgMTBR eBike "Survey"-ebike.jpg

    If you are able to look at those 2 pictures and honestly feel they look similar enough to be mistaken for each other, then you are obviously trolling.
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  59. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    While everyone is certainly entitled to their own opinion, I do not think this is up for debate, the following 2 pictures show that motorcycles and eBikes do not look similar enough to be mistaken for one another.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    If you are able to look at those 2 pictures and honestly feel they look similar enough to be mistaken for each other, then you are obviously trolling.



    Overlooking the obvious. It is easy to discern that both have motors, that's a distinction not lost on most people. What's so hard to understand about that? Using the same logic we could see these on our trails under the guise of "bicycle".

    MTBR eBike "Survey"-stealth-1.jpg
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  60. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    If you are able to look at those 2 pictures and honestly feel they look similar enough to be mistaken for each other, then you are obviously trolling.
    Not trolling at all.

    Promise I'll stop using the M-Word here , in this sub forum too.




    BTW , do a Google of the word "Car" and check all the different type of vehicles that pops up under that term.

    Yes , it is possible to use a term to explain different situations or different product like a two wheeled vehicle with a motor attached to it.
    "There is a big difference between kneeling down and bending over" -FZ

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    I have been chasing these threads around the site. This was set up and fired off by the editorial side of the site and should not have been pushed through particularly with out my not knowing and the mod team not knowing about it before it was pushed live. If you still see these popups or you see anything like this again, please make sure you send my account a pm. I want to be the first to know if I need to shut these down.
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