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  1. #301
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    Exactly. This fight is going to come down to communication skills. STC might even want to hire a pro PR person if they're serious.
    Would you care to help with a donation to accomplish that?


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  2. #302
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    I'll consider it.

    Right now my fight is with health care and immigration. Bikes in Wilderness is far down my list of importance. Like I said before, I'm fine with the status quo.

  3. #303
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    Quote Originally Posted by IBEXLVR View Post
    Uh oh, watch out. Here comes the nazi to shut down free speech... I thought I was in the usa... maybe the servers are based in North korea...
    Quote Originally Posted by IBEXLVR View Post
    "Preserved a little more."
    For what reason?
    For people to see it?
    How many people will see it if there are no trails through it?
    Quote Originally Posted by IBEXLVR View Post
    I smell a jew... trying to monopolize alot of land with fancy words and nonsensical idealism. But hey if it sounds good it must feel good, so let's give the land to the owners of the goyim!
    Hey there, genius.

    The only entity that can (illegally) infringe upon your right to free speech is the government. Also, they are the only entity that guarantees that right.

    This is a message board. You have no right to free speech here. If you want spew vile hate speech, do it somewhere else.

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  4. #304
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    115th CONGRESS
    1st Session
    H. R. 1349

    To amend the Wilderness Act to ensure that the use of bicycles, wheelchairs, strollers, and game carts is not prohibited in Wilderness Areas, and for other purposes.
    IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
    March 2, 2017

    Mr. McClintock (for himself, Mr. Hunter, Mr. Westerman, and Mr. Pearce) introduced the following bill; which was referred to the Committee on Natural Resources
    A BILL

    To amend the Wilderness Act to ensure that the use of bicycles, wheelchairs, strollers, and game carts is not prohibited in Wilderness Areas, and for other purposes.
    Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,

    SECTION 1. Use of certain wheeled devices not prohibited in Wilderness Areas.

    Section 4(c) of the Wilderness Act (16 U.S.C. 1133(c)) is amended by adding at the end the following: ďNothing in this section shall prohibit the use of motorized wheelchairs, non-motorized wheelchairs, non-motorized bicycles, strollers, wheelbarrows, survey wheels, measuring wheels, or game carts within any wilderness area.Ē.


    This is the bill I don't like.

    The Hatch bill is much more agreeable, but I read this one first and guess I missed the other. This bill does not seem to allow for local land managers and seems to be a blanket inclusion of all bikes in all wilderness areas.

  5. #305
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    Whoah, there. Posts deleted. I hope an admin can log in soon and ban that dufus.

  6. #306
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    Quote Originally Posted by AshevilleMTB View Post
    Whoah, there. Posts deleted. I hope an admin can log in soon and ban that dufus.


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  7. #307
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    Quote Originally Posted by AshevilleMTB View Post
    Whoah, there. Posts deleted. I hope an admin can log in soon and ban that dufus.
    I thought the mods have the power to ban. That's why I use the report button.

  8. #308
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curveball View Post
    Interesting. What sort of differences do you notice?

    I'm curious about this.
    Curveball, since you asked... I just scrolled through a few thousand photos (on a Friday evening pre-bbq no less. You're welcome.) and most of my trail shots are bigger scale. I don't have too many that are down at the ground level, but here's what I've found. The images of course don't show a dramatic difference, kind of like how hills are always steeper than they look, but maybe you can see it a little bit. You can definitely see the differences out on the trails though, so before anyone says they all look the same, they're not. My photography just doesn't show it well.

    With bikes. Notice a slight trough shape in which the centerline of the track is a little deeper.

    Mountain Bikers Seek to Gut Wilderness Act-11012988_10207405611361732_5995939988086905966_n.jpg
    Mountain Bikers Seek to Gut Wilderness Act-325047_2340411112964_4911090_o.jpg


    Without bikes. Notice the width of the track is about the same level.

    Mountain Bikers Seek to Gut Wilderness Act-287266_2320670539462_8045636_o.jpg
    Mountain Bikers Seek to Gut Wilderness Act-2016-06-20-11.23.47.jpg

  9. #309
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    Quote Originally Posted by norton55 View Post
    I thought the mods have the power to ban. That's why I use the report button.
    Hi Norton,

    Supermods can. Regular mods can only delete, edit, make things invisible. They don't have access over a user's account.

    No worries, I PMed the concern to someone with more privileges.

  10. #310
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    Quote Originally Posted by BumpityBump View Post
    And those hucking off rocks? Mountain bikers have attracted a major asshole crowd since I started 30 years ago. I get more annoyed by bikers than any other faction except poorly behaved dogs on my local trails. My dog listens to voice commands and stops on a dime, it isn't that hard but people are lazy regarding training. The last thing I want in Wilderness is this new generation of self absorbed disrespectful aholes.

    I find it funny (sad really) that you fight ebikes on your current trails but think you should open access over protests of hikers. Where do you draw the line?? Don't you realize that sentiment will be used against you?
    I'm afraid I agree with this.
    I've run into a whole new bunch of first class A-Holes on the trails these days. Cutting corners, illegal trail building, no respect for hikers, or even other bikers etc. When I first started riding in the mid 90s, the claims of what mountain bikers were doing, were almost entirely false, now I see a whole lot of skidding up trails and other crap, at least here in S. Nevada... Illegal trail building is a fricking disease around here.
    My only complaint about Wilderness Areas, is that horses are allowed in many, and they are far more destructive than bikes.
    I've seen trails that were fine for years, like in Cotton Wood, get opened to horses, and they were powder in just 90 days flat. Those trails were terribly damaged when we get summer T-Storms.
    Communist Party Member Since 1917.

  11. #311
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    Quote Originally Posted by AshevilleMTB View Post
    Hi Norton,

    Supermods can. Regular mods can only delete, edit, make things invisible. They don't have access over a user's account.

    No worries, I PMed the concern to someone with more privileges.
    Got it. Thanks. That post was way out of line.

  12. #312
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    Got it. Thanks. That post was way out of line.
    Hi AshvilleMTB,

    I edited my post #275 because I repeated the things that guy said, but I noticed it got quoted before I could edit and now those two particular words are still out there.

    If you could, I would love it if you remove that part of the quote from Curveball's post #278.

    Thank you. And again, I apologize for even responding to that.

  13. #313
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davey Simon View Post
    The two year time limit is no longer part of the bill. So it is no longer a concern.


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    That's too bad. Local bike haters wilderness managers will simply do nothing. As for surly, he seems to be grasping at straws to justify his support of the bike exclusion.

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  14. #314
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    Done!

  15. #315
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    Americans must be running out of wilderness to ride bikes. Sheesh

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  16. #316
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    Quote Originally Posted by AshevilleMTB View Post
    Done!
    Thanks

  17. #317
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    Quote Originally Posted by zorg View Post
    That's too bad. Local bike haters wilderness managers will simply do nothing. As for surly, he seems to be grasping at straws to justify his support of the bike exclusion.

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    If you look at his post history it's pretty obvious he's a troll.


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  18. #318
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    Good job!

    Quote Originally Posted by Surly29 View Post
    And this is where I agree with everyone. Case-by-case.

    Please don't come to my Wilderness Areas in Colorado and tell me you just have to have access.
    Whoa!!! What the hell is this?

    We agree on something!
    Riding Washington State singletrack since 1986

  19. #319
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    Quote Originally Posted by zorg View Post
    That's too bad. Local bike haters wilderness managers will simply do nothing. As for surly, he seems to be grasping at straws to justify his support of the bike exclusion.

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    It would appear that Surly isn't as opposed to us as it seemed at first. He posted that he'd be okay with evaluating access on a case by case basis.
    Riding Washington State singletrack since 1986

  20. #320
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curveball View Post
    It would appear that Surly isn't as opposed to us as it seemed at first. He posted that he'd be okay with evaluating access on a case by case basis.
    He's just trolling. He already changed his position yet again and proposed a ridiculous red herring to support his viewpoint. He's also posted on other threads that he is adamantly against any cycling in Wilderness areas.


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  21. #321
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davey Simon View Post
    If you look at his post history it's pretty obvious he's a troll.


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    Perhaps not. He did post that he may agree with access on a case by case basis which the STC bill includes.

    You may end up owing him an apology.
    Riding Washington State singletrack since 1986

  22. #322
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    Mountain Bikers Seek to Gut Wilderness Act

    Quote Originally Posted by Curveball View Post
    Perhaps not. He did post that he may agree with access on a case by case basis which the STC bill includes.

    You may end up owing him an apology.
    If you look at his posts he clearly states his position in another thread: he is dead set against cycling access in Wilderness. Yet he is here stating that he'd be OK with it if his ridiculous concerns like mineral oil or chain lube contaminating "his" Wilderness areas can be addressed. These red herrings are not only impossible to address but steer the conversation the way he wants.


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  23. #323
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    Curveball, since you asked... I just scrolled through a few thousand photos (on a Friday evening pre-bbq no less. You're welcome.) and most of my trail shots are bigger scale. I don't have too many that are down at the ground level, but here's what I've found. The images of course don't show a dramatic difference, kind of like how hills are always steeper than they look, but maybe you can see it a little bit. You can definitely see the differences out on the trails though, so before anyone says they all look the same, they're not. My photography just doesn't show it well.

    With bikes. Notice a slight trough shape in which the centerline of the track is a little deeper.
    Nat, you really didn't have to go to so much effort to answer my question and I appreciate the photos. As a geologist, you'd think that I'd notice the tread differences but apparently not. I agree with you that there are differences.
    Riding Washington State singletrack since 1986

  24. #324
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    Good job!

    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Hey there, genius.

    The only entity that can (illegally) infringe upon your right to free speech is the government. Also, they are the only entity that guarantees that right.

    This is a message board. You have no right to free speech here. If you want spew vile hate speech, do it somewhere else.

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    Duke, since I can't add any more to your reputation, I'll give you a big thumbs up for this post!
    Riding Washington State singletrack since 1986

  25. #325
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davey Simon View Post
    Would you care to help with a donation to accomplish that?


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    Why yes, yes I would.
    Riding Washington State singletrack since 1986

  26. #326
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davey Simon View Post
    If you look at his post history it's pretty obvious he's a troll.
    I never heard the term "Sustainable Trails" before about the time IMBA started giving guild lines for building trails. They told us mtn bikes won't cause additional trail damage if the trails are built properly. The Telluride Ski Area abandoned most of their trails to be replaced with a system of sustainable trails. If your org. is named Sustainable Trails, isn't that admitting there non-sustainable trails.

    Obviously many people, mtn bikers included, are concerned about the additional impacts from mtn biking in wilderness areas. But STC does nothing to quell these fears, if anyone speaks out against them they start mud slinging.

    I see this organization as just another special interest group. Political lobbyists who aren't nearly as interested in what's best for this country, or even bikers for that matter, as they are with their bottom line.

    I got no solutions form this thread, only solicitation for donation!!!

  27. #327
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    Whow, took me so long to write that post that you guys covered a lot of it for me.

  28. #328
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    Quote Originally Posted by Surly29 View Post
    I never heard the term "Sustainable Trails" before about the time IMBA started giving guild lines for building trails. They told us mtn bikes won't cause additional trail damage if the trails are built properly. The Telluride Ski Area abandoned most of their trails to be replaced with a system of sustainable trails. If your org. is named Sustainable Trails, isn't that admitting there non-sustainable trails.

    Obviously many people, mtn bikers included, are concerned about the additional impacts from mtn biking in wilderness areas. But STC does nothing to quell these fears, if anyone speaks out against them they start mud slinging.

    I see this organization as just another special interest group. Political lobbyists who aren't nearly as interested in what's best for this country, or even bikers for that matter, as they are with their bottom line.

    I got no solutions form this thread, only solicitation for donation!!!
    I've addressed everyone's concerns but balked at your ridiculous and impossible to address issue of chain oil contaminating streams in Wilderness areas. Looking back at your forum posts you spend quite a bit of time bad mouthing STC and our bill.

    Just don't be disingenuous that you're not absolutely opposed to cycling in Wilderness areas. You've stated that before.

    Now you're coming on here stating that STC hasn't addressed sustainable trails and that all we do is ask for donations. Both completely untrue.


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  29. #329
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    I've bad mouthed STC? Where?

    I stated I'm opposed to allowing mtn bikes in ALL wilderness areas. If someone comes up with a specific case, I'll listen. As far as "MY" wilderness areas (yes, they are public lands and I pay taxes) I don't want riders to be allowed without some assurances that they will not cause additional damage.

    You're not going to bully me into changing my position on this.

  30. #330
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    Mtn bikes can cause deeper ruts that hiking. Where did you address that concern?

  31. #331
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    You're just showing your true colors now.


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  32. #332
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    Yup. Red, white, and blue!

  33. #333
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    Quote Originally Posted by Surly29 View Post
    Mtn bikes can cause deeper ruts that hiking. Where did you address that concern?
    You are reaching bad right now Surly.

    If the condition of a trail is a concern (which by your quoted post it obviously is), this has absolutely nothing to do with Wilderness.

    Trails are never "untrammeled by man", that's pretty much the point of a trail.

    If Wilderness has a trail through it, then it doesn't really qualify as true Wilderness then does it?

    So any place that has trails can't possibly be Wilderness, right?

  34. #334
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    So how many wildernuts on this thread?

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  35. #335
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    Quote Originally Posted by zorg View Post
    So how many wildernuts on this thread?

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    It's the same 3 or 4, as on other threads.


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  36. #336
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    What is a wildernut?
    I brake for stinkbugs

  37. #337
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    Name calling is the refuge of those that cannot respond in a thoughtful manner. Please do not derail this thread with baseless attacks as they are detrimental to the efforts of those on both sides of the issue.
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  38. #338
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curveball View Post
    Nat, you really didn't have to go to so much effort to answer my question and I appreciate the photos. As a geologist, you'd think that I'd notice the tread differences but apparently not. I agree with you that there are differences.
    No big deal. I enjoyed flipping through my old photos. It could just be our local trails that respond differently to different users. Or maybe not.

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  39. #339
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    Quote Originally Posted by powpig View Post
    ...
    If the condition of a trail is a concern (which by your quoted post it obviously is), this has absolutely nothing to do with Wilderness.

    Trails are never "untrammeled by man", that's pretty much the point of a trail.

    If Wilderness has a trail through it, then it doesn't really qualify as true Wilderness then does it?

    So any place that has trails can't possibly be Wilderness, right?
    True. 3 miles of hiking trail built to standard design specs = 1 acre clearcut. Actually worse than a clearcut. BMPs for timber harvesting call for erosion and soil disturbance mitigation, and clearcuts are reforested as soon as possible. Trails are by design to be permanent.
    So many trails... so little time...

  40. #340
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    Quote Originally Posted by zorg View Post
    So how many wildernuts on this thread?

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    I guess you could call me a wildernut because I really love wilderness. I just happen to think that bikes should not be excluded from wilderness areas without reason.
    Riding Washington State singletrack since 1986

  41. #341
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    Quote Originally Posted by Surly29 View Post
    I never heard the term "Sustainable Trails" before about the time IMBA started giving guild lines for building trails. They told us mtn bikes won't cause additional trail damage if the trails are built properly. The Telluride Ski Area abandoned most of their trails to be replaced with a system of sustainable trails. If your org. is named Sustainable Trails, isn't that admitting there non-sustainable trails.

    Obviously many people, mtn bikers included, are concerned about the additional impacts from mtn biking in wilderness areas. But STC does nothing to quell these fears, if anyone speaks out against them they start mud slinging.

    I see this organization as just another special interest group. Political lobbyists who aren't nearly as interested in what's best for this country, or even bikers for that matter, as they are with their bottom line.

    I got no solutions form this thread, only solicitation for donation!!!
    Just because you never heard of them doesn't meant they did not exist. Study after study shows mt bikes and hiking have similar impacts. Horses? Talk abut laying waste to a trail and run off, start there. The idea of a sustainable trail is one that is designed well, with the slope, terrain, soil consistency and topography considered. Old game trails and hiking trails going strait up and down a slope are not considered sustainable. Switchbacks, limited trail grade( not too steep of a pitch) rolling grade dips and trail reversals all help to make the trail sustainable, ie not washed out by water. Impacts? Like from hikers just doing the same out and back. Or say bikepackers covering a much lager, dispersed, spread out trail route, away from the trail head congestion. Hmmm.

  42. #342
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    I can hardly believe that any mountain biker would support these Arcane Wilderness laws that only serve to separate citizens from what is rightfully theirs to enjoy and limits these resources only to a very small segment of the population.
    Let me give you a clue, it's rocks dirt and grass. That's it. You're not going to hurt it by riding a bicycle over it, you might make a little worn spot but I promise you in a thousand years it's not going to exist anyways
    This is just selfish people that think their preferred way of enjoying the outdoors is the only acceptable way and trying to force their beliefs on everyone else and steal public land from the other 99%. Despicable..


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  43. #343
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    ............

  44. #344
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    Canada allows biking in magnificent high mountain areas with little detriment.
    How do you know?
    Remember Canada only has 35,000,000 people.
    What would happen to that "magnificent high mountain area" after it was discovered by you yanks?
    Oh wait, you want to shit in your own nest? Go ahead.

  45. #345
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    Quote Originally Posted by tungsten View Post
    Remember Canada only has 35,000,000 people.



    Should be pretty easy to over run it then.
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  46. #346
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    It would be cool if there was one thread on MTBR regarding STC and our that wasn't started and frequented by trolls.


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  47. #347
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    Quote Originally Posted by tungsten View Post
    Remember Canada only has 35,000,000 people.
    That's like 140 million collarbones.

    I'm learning so much about Canada this week.

  48. #348
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    Quote Originally Posted by tungsten View Post
    How do you know?
    Remember Canada only has 35,000,000 people.
    What would happen to that "magnificent high mountain area" after it was discovered by you yanks?
    Oh wait, you want to shit in your own nest? Go ahead.
    Just like the kilometer after kilometer of clearcuts on the YellowHead Highway from Jasper to Prince Rupert. Just like the Canadian Government dumping units of Doug Fir here cheaper than my local mill can cut and mill. Go away.

  49. #349
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    Quote Originally Posted by norton55 View Post
    Just like the kilometer after kilometer of clearcuts on the YellowHead Highway from Jasper to Prince Rupert. Just like the Canadian Government dumping units of Doug Fir here cheaper than my local mill can cut and mill. Go away.
    Ah yes softwood lumber. We've punked you guys what, three times on this already and they'll rule in our favour again.

    North America, USA, Washington, Olympic Peninsula.

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    Oregon or Idaho....
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  50. #350
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    Quote Originally Posted by tungsten View Post
    We've




    We? The only thing you've ever contributed to is the ever rising unemployment numbers.
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    Nice Red Chicklets

    How'd those come about?

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  52. #352
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cleared2land View Post
    How'd those come about?

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    Seems like they were earned. I wish IP address were published on posts so we could see who is using sock puppet accounts to bolster their opinions.


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  53. #353
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curveball View Post
    Interesting. What sort of differences do you notice?

    I'm curious about this.
    Curveball, I took a couple of photos from the same geographical vicinity with the camera set down at ground level in the center of the trail. It shows the difference in contour to which I was referring earlier. The first image is from a trail used primarily by bikes, the second one allows no bikes. Each tread is approximately 2' wide where the camera was.

    Mountain Bikers Seek to Gut Wilderness Act-img_0771.jpg.jpg

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    Nat the photos show cupping. This happens on all trails. The first photo is a likely a trail that sees heavier traffic or is older. Or both.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Davey Simon View Post
    Nat the photos show cupping. This happens on all trails. The first photo is a likely a trail that sees heavier traffic or is older. Or both.


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    The first also is not out-sloped to a cliff/exposure as the second is. The increased runoff due to the cliff and slope to it will also help "wash" the cupping away.

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  56. #356
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    You guys, try not to read too much into it. The pics were for Curveball and are posted without accusation.

    BTW, both trails see high user volume. The no-bikes trail has been there over a hundred years, the trail with bikes allowed has been there less than fifteen. Even on level ground the same cross section wear patterns take place on our local soils. I just happened to snap the pics where I did.

  57. #357
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    So 15 years of mountain bikes puts a 2 inch cup in a trail.
    rain and 1 week of cows/horse does this to a trail. Horses have access because?
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexbn921 View Post
    So 15 years of mountain bikes puts a 2 inch cup in a trail.
    rain and 1 week of cows/horse does this to a trail. Horses have access because?



    Horses is a non starter. The conversation is about bikes and their access and we're trying really hard not to throw any user groups under the bus.
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  59. #359
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    You guys, try not to read too much into it. The pics were for Curveball and are posted without accusation.

    BTW, both trails see high user volume. The no-bikes trail has been there over a hundred years, the trail with bikes allowed has been there less than fifteen. Even on level ground the same cross section wear patterns take place on our local soils. I just happened to snap the pics where I did.



    That looks like a pretty typical tread for a well constructed bike trail in my modest experience and I find that land managers generally find that to be acceptable impact. Thanks for the pics.
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  60. #360
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    It is a well designed bike trail that has held up to heavy use. The pic was not implying that the cupping is bad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    The pic was not implying that the cupping is bad.


    I in no way took it that way. It's a good example that should be used as an example of good trail design and construction.
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  62. #362
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    Mostly I see dirt and no reason to exclude bikes

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  63. #363
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    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    Horses is a non starter. The conversation is about bikes and their access and we're trying really hard not to throw any user groups under the bus.
    You're correct. I was not trying to throw horse under the bus. We are having an irrational conversion about erosion. It has been proven threw multiple studies that bikes have no more impact then hikers. My point was that other factors have a massive impact on the trails. The storms this year have proven that. I like horses and want them to continue to have access.

  64. #364
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    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    I in no way took it that way. It's a good example that should be used as an example of good trail design and construction.
    Thanks, I understand. I'm spelling it out for anyone else who's itching for an e-fight. Curveball asked if anyone has noticed a difference and I told him yes, I have (because I consistently have, and I'm out in the woods on both types of trails a lot). Never implied one was good and the other was bad, and I don't recall saying anything in this thread about erosion.

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    The fact that someone cares that 2" of rock have shifted over a few inches underscores the level of insanity with these eco nuts.
    It's not even going to exist there in a few thousand years you bozos. It's rocks and dirt!

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  66. #366
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    Hoof prints and boot tracks aren't the only impacts on a trail, and there's good reason why one user group might be excluded from certain areas besides erosion issues. One example would be no fly zones over the Grand Canyon.
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  67. #367
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    This moves to the house floor for a vote and then signed into law by "The Apprentice" himself. Sorry, still can't combine the words Trump and President together.

    https://www.bikemag.com/news/mountai...8E9529D5162B22

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    Letter sent to my Senator

    Dear Senator Heller -

    I moved to Nevada in 1992 so I've lived here for more than 25 years. I am an avid mt biker and have watched as available trails to ride across the country have been closed to bikes due to their re-classification as Wilderness. At least this has not happened here in Nevada.

    I have been following the efforts of the Sustainable Trails Coalition to return the Wilderness Act to it's original form, meaning and intent which did not exclude bicycles from Wilderness until it was amended in 1984, 20 years after it's original passage.

    The House Committee on Natural Resources has voted on and passed H.R. 1349 through committee. This bill is short, simple, straightforward (much more so than this letter), and is only about allowing Human Powered travel and ending the blanket ban on bicycles in Wilderness Areas. It is not a blanket allowance for bicycles in Wilderness, it would simply return the decision making to the local level where land managers who know their trails best, could decide on each trail based on it's individual merit.

    As I understand it, the next step is to have this bill reintroduced in the Senate. I would be quite pleased and would urge you to proceed with this undertaking. Senator Mike Lee of Utah introduced the Human-Powered Travel in Wilderness Areas Act, S.3205 over a year ago which expired with the last Congress. Perhaps he would like to co-sponsor this with you?

    Thanks for taking the time to read my thoughts.

  69. #369
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    Quote Originally Posted by powpig View Post
    ...Thanks for taking the time to read my thoughts.
    I kinda doubt that happened.
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  70. #370
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cleared2land View Post
    I kinda doubt that happened.
    You might be surprised. Our Congressional Representative actually organized a "community meeting" when we lost a local trail to enviro-whackos, and if not for his involvement, I doubt the trail that was built to replace it would exist today.


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    You're fortunate!
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    In my local forum (in Utah) there is a guy that rides a mountain unicycle. At first I thought, "hey, he could ride that in the wilderness". But then I remembered sometimes people on unicycles like to juggle balls when they ride. We don't need that kind of non-sense in the wilderness...... just saying.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cleared2land View Post
    I kinda doubt that happened.
    Is that a comment on Heller or politicians in general? Don't really care, just curious.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cleared2land View Post
    You're fortunate!
    I really doubt he even knew what a mountain bike was prior to the trail getting shut down, but he had enough bikers and motorcycle guys emailing him that he got involved. And let me tell you, when a congressmen gets involved, people show up, and people pay attention. He definitely earned some votes going forward that day.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Cleared2land View Post
    You're fortunate!
    Quote Originally Posted by powpig View Post
    Is that a comment on Heller or politicians in general? Don't really care, just curious.
    It was a comment based on the detail of the OP's letter. The comment was made towards politicians in general.

    I am one who will commonly send my elected officials' an email sharing my thoughts and opinions when a topic has relevance to me. I have learned to really capture their attention, you have to be part of a larger consensus of agreeing voters and be direct in your point.

    The OP was fortunate that the outcome was fruitful and I applaud his efforts and success.
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  76. #376
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    Mountain Bikers Seek to Gut Wilderness Act

    Me and some local mt bikers wrote some letters to McClintock last year, then we asked to meet with him. At the meeting he listened to us and then announced to us he would introduce a bill to restore bike access in Wilderness. Yes he was influenced by STC's lobbyist too. That wouldn't have happened if all we did was debate this on the Internet with strangers. Good job powpig.

    Since this is a thread resurrection of a Wilderness purist wacko article, here's your Sunday morning reading

    https://idahostatejournal.com/opinio...bcc5fd882.html

  77. #377
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    Quote Originally Posted by Surly29 View Post
    Mtn bikes can cause deeper ruts that hiking. Where did you address that concern?
    And the grazing cattle and loaded pack horses? Dance gracefully on the trail?

  78. #378
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curveball View Post
    I guess you could call me a wildernut because I really love wilderness. I just happen to think that bikes should not be excluded from wilderness areas without reason.
    I think I fit the profile even better.
    I love wilderness and nuts--almonds, especially.

    I also think bikes are doing plenty to be excluded from currently legal trails, so I think the WA argument is pretty much moot, or just an argument to get even more public push back and paint MTB in an even more unflattering light.

    But no one cares what I think, so don't worry about it.

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    .......
    Last edited by tungsten; 4 Weeks Ago at 07:40 PM.

  80. #380
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    There is overwhelming evidence that all recreational use can negatively impact wildlife. However, not all recreational use is equal. Mechanical access including mountain biking can increase displacement and stress for sensitive wildlife more so than hikers.
    https://www.counterpunch.org/2018/08...es-protection/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silent_G View Post
    Here's what I see, day to day at my shop, that is the real issue. Words like "play" and "toy" and "well it's just a bike..." and "I ride for sport". Kills me.
    What is so wrong with that? My bikes are just fancy (well not that fancy) toys.

  82. #382
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    As soon as I saw Vandeman's name in there, the article lost all credibility.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curveball View Post
    As soon as I saw Vandeman's name in there, the article lost all credibility.
    And I stand corrected. I researched several papers linked in the referenced article that do document negative effects from mountain biking to elk. It would seem that some degree of regulation may be warranted in that regard.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curveball View Post
    And I stand corrected. I researched several papers linked in the referenced article that do document negative effects from mountain biking to elk. It would seem that some degree of regulation may be warranted in that regard.
    Find a study of unhunted elk. There arenít any; all the papers cited to argue that recreation is an issue state that more study is needed. Unhunted elk donít demonstrate a flight response to humans. Ever been to Yellowstone?

    Also- hunting is recreation, and causes probable mortality to elk. Mountain biking does not cause elk mortality.

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    Iím sure all human activity has an effect on all wildlife. Why single out a specific user group. Oh yeah because it totally fits the existing bias...


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    Forget all this. Tell us what you love about mountain biking, guy posting on a mountain biking site.

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    George Wuerthner is a profoundly anti cycling author. His work is hardly an unbiased look at the reality on the ground


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    Quote Originally Posted by Davey Simon View Post
    Iím sure all human activity has an effect on all wildlife.
    Bingo. It does. Some wildlife species are more sensitive to it than others. Hell, the simple presence of a trail has an effect on a lot of species, regardless of whether people are present or not. The presence of a tree has an effect on an awful lot of species (and for some species, that effect is a negative one). If the purpose of a specific unit of land is 100% to protect certain species, people DO get excluded. But this is not the case for a vast majority of managed land units. They balance human use. In the grand scheme, nonconsumptive, nonmotorized recreation has pretty low effects. Especially if visitations are rarer and if trail density is much lower.

    But when Vandeman is part of the discussion (whether he enters it on his own, or gets inserted into it by lunatics like tungsten), none of that is really what the discussion is about.

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    I would expect hikers to have a far greater impact on wildlife due to sheer numbers. In my area, hikers outnumber bikers by a huge margin. I expect that to be the case for Montana as well.

    Given this, if wildlife protection is the main goal, then I'd expect to exclude all humans from the area of interest.
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    Quote Originally Posted by evasive View Post
    Find a study of unhunted elk. There arenít any; all the papers cited to argue that recreation is an issue state that more study is needed. Unhunted elk donít demonstrate a flight response to humans. Ever been to Yellowstone?

    Also- hunting is recreation, and causes probable mortality to elk. Mountain biking does not cause elk mortality.
    Yes, I have been to Yellowstone.

    Just to clarify, when I said that some degree of regulation may be warranted, I certainly did not mean banning bikes from Wilderness. What I meant was that certain trails might be closed at different times of the year to protect elk herds for example. Basically accommodating wildlife needs in recreation planning.
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  92. #392
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curveball View Post
    What I meant was that certain trails might be closed at different times of the year to protect elk herds for example. Basically accommodating wildlife needs in recreation planning.
    We have seasonal trail closures (in non-Wilderness areas) here in Bend to protect calving elk.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Curveball View Post
    Yes, I have been to Yellowstone.

    Just to clarify, when I said that some degree of regulation may be warranted, I certainly did not mean banning bikes from Wilderness. What I meant was that certain trails might be closed at different times of the year to protect elk herds for example. Basically accommodating wildlife needs in recreation planning.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    We have seasonal trail closures here in Bend to protect calving elk even in non-Wilderness areas.




    Solutions are the way forward, not exclusions like Vanderman espouses. tungsten very well may be Vanderman.
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    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    Solutions are the way forward, not exclusions like Vanderman espouses. tungsten very well may be Vanderman.
    look at his posts in off camber. I wouldn't be surprised.

  95. #395
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curveball View Post
    Yes, I have been to Yellowstone.

    Just to clarify, when I said that some degree of regulation may be warranted, I certainly did not mean banning bikes from Wilderness. What I meant was that certain trails might be closed at different times of the year to protect elk herds for example. Basically accommodating wildlife needs in recreation planning.
    Seasonal closures are entirely appropriate management tools. I think they should apply to all (nonmotorized) uses and users, though. In many cases they do. Backcountry Hunters & Anglers were pushing for a local one applied solely to bicycles during fall. Thatís not wildlife management so much as recreation management.

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    Yep. There is a Federal designation to protect Wildlife called a Wildlife Preserve. It severely restrictive of all human activity. Therefore unpopular with the hiking stick crew...


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    Quote Originally Posted by Davey Simon View Post
    Yep. There is a Federal designation to protect Wildlife called a Wildlife Preserve. It severely restrictive of all human activity. Therefore unpopular with the hiking stick crew...


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    Cool, I'm completely fine with leaving critical wildlife habitat alone.

    That said, I think it's important to realize that there are vast areas within the Wilderness system that are not critical habitat.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curveball View Post
    Cool, I'm completely fine with leaving critical wildlife habitat alone.

    That said, I think it's important to realize that there are vast areas within the Wilderness system that are not critical habitat.
    Yeah, like the one wilderness I backpacked in tx where the "trail" was an old county road

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    Yeah, like the one wilderness I backpacked in tx where the "trail" was an old county road

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    If you couldn't find "wilderness" in Texas I don't think you're qualified to call people "lunatics", let alone engage in this discussion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tungsten View Post
    If you went to Texas looking for "wilderness" I don't think you're qualified to call people "lunatics", let alone engage in this discussion.
    Regardless of what you want to call me, the USFS has designated quite a few big-w Wilderness areas in Texas, most of which are in the far eastern part of the state. On whether they should be designated Wilderness areas in the first place, I think you've made my point for me, inadvertently, perhaps. There is no good reason for excluding bicycle use on said closed county road.

    My reasons for going there are irrelevant. I went there, nonetheless.

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