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  1. #1
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    Justifiable or just plain unsightly

    I came upon this video elsewhere:

    https://www.pinkbike.com/news/bas-va...ard-video.html

    Huge skill demonstrated here, but I take some issue at the ugliness of the dirt jump course out in the forest. I have always been something of a 'Purist' when it comes to MTB, and I am not a big fan of man-made stuff that looks out of place in the wild. The attraction for me is just that: the wild, and riding thru it with minimal impact.

    This is almost certainly contentious, but I for one would love to see these courses built in places with less adverse environmental impact. When I see all the wooden bridges, berms etc in otherwise pristine forest, I get a little rankled. Nature can give us plenty of good stuff without having to add to it.
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  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockerc View Post
    I came upon this video elsewhere:

    https://www.pinkbike.com/news/bas-va...ard-video.html

    Huge skill demonstrated here, but I take some issue at the ugliness of the dirt jump course out in the forest. I have always been something of a 'Purist' when it comes to MTB, and I am not a big fan of man-made stuff that looks out of place in the wild. The attraction for me is just that: the wild, and riding thru it with minimal impact.

    This is almost certainly contentious, but I for one would love to see these courses built in places with less adverse environmental impact. When I see all the wooden bridges, berms etc in otherwise pristine forest, I get a little rankled. Nature can give us plenty of good stuff without having to add to it.
    GTFO.... This can't be a serious post. moderators?
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  3. #3
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    Like I said, contentious, but valid I think. I welcome serious debate on this rather than a call to the mods!
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockerc View Post
    Like I said, contentious, but valid I think.
    You realize it's a bike park right?! What about all those ugly roads that go through the forests and take you to trail heads, your car, airplanes, etc. Let's get rid of it all right? Caveman shit.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Streetdoctor View Post
    GTFO.... This can't be a serious post. moderators?
    What is so unbelievable about his post? Why are you crying for the moderators?

    I too prefer natural terrain over manicured trails and understand his point that a lot of trails can look unsightly in an otherwise beautiful setting.

  6. #6
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    My point is it's a ski resort bike park. Your spandex is cutting off circulation to your brain.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockerc View Post
    I came upon this video elsewhere:

    https://www.pinkbike.com/news/bas-va...ard-video.html

    Huge skill demonstrated here, but I take some issue at the ugliness of the dirt jump course out in the forest. I have always been something of a 'Purist' when it comes to MTB, and I am not a big fan of man-made stuff that looks out of place in the wild. The attraction for me is just that: the wild, and riding thru it with minimal impact.

    This is almost certainly contentious, but I for one would love to see these courses built in places with less adverse environmental impact. When I see all the wooden bridges, berms etc in otherwise pristine forest, I get a little rankled. Nature can give us plenty of good stuff without having to add to it.
    Yeah, they ought to put it somewhere like a ski resort where there are already huge sections of trees cut out for the ski slopes. Would have saved them some work too. Can't believe they didn't think of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Streetdoctor View Post
    My point is it's a ski resort bike park. Your spandex is cutting off circulation to your brain.
    What's your point, a bike park, because its private land cant have trails that one may consider unsightly?

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Streetdoctor View Post
    You realize it's a bike park right?! What about all those ugly roads that go through the forests and take you to trail heads, your car, airplanes, etc. Let's get rid of it all right? Caveman shit.
    I am not talking about the park as a whole, but the jumps and man made obstacles. My preference is for natural stuff and I find these things ugly. I would hate to see biking becoming a sport that is relegated to such places with the allure of mountain biking sanitized and confined to closed courses. I guess with popularity comes that confinement as natural resources dwindle.
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    I'm confused. At first the issue was this specific video, and how it is an example of "mad made stuff" egregiously built in an "otherwise pristine forest". Since that pretty clearly turned out to be incorrect, are we now just moving on to rant about natural vs. built features? Because if that's the case, there are a dozen other threads in the past month alone that cover the subject pretty well (beat it into the ground actually!).

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    I'm a purest about trails in the forest, but I don't have a problem with this if it's in a park be it private or public. I do think the loads, or shit loads, of dirt that had to be moved probably detracts from the beauty of the forest. But it's not much different then ski lift towers running up a mountain side.

    I don't think I can ride those features to their potential, but I do know if I came across them in the woods I would hit them. So I'm being hypocritical. Mtb has progressed far from the days of riding road bike goe with "fat" tires.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by smithcreek View Post
    I'm confused. At first the issue was this specific video, and how it is an example of "mad made stuff" egregiously built in an "otherwise pristine forest". Since that pretty clearly turned out to be incorrect, are we now just moving on to rant about natural vs. built features? Because if that's the case, there are a dozen other threads in the past month alone that cover the subject pretty well (beat it into the ground actually!).
    If you read my post it just uses this as an example. I talk about other stuff too. I did not see the other posts about this that have been around, but my apologies if it offends you that I bring it up again.
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  13. #13
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    Some of the building goes too far and should use natural drops and rocks. It's a balance IMO.
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    If it's a bike park the owners/community can build whatever they want. It's not a nature preserve, the environmental impact argument is perhaps a bit disingenuous.

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    I take offense at the video being all in slow motion to provide a false sense of drama. Otherwise, that park looks fun as shit.

  16. #16
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    Cool little vid, love watching smooth riders manual. Note the fully slammed seat.

    Anyway not my thing but better than a gated community or another MalWart. I see bike park riding and trail riding as 2 different sports and there's room for both IMO.

    I do agree that it detracts from the natural beauty of the forest but clearly it's not a hiking or backcountry mtb trail.
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Some of the building goes too far and should use natural drops and rocks. It's a balance IMO.
    Yeah that is a good point, I think it just seems to me to be too artificial. It really offends my senses for some reason! I have come across some features out there in the wild that simply jar my senses. But, I have built stuff myself that is hardly 'natural', but is calculated to help drainage and sustainability, and makes the trail more usable for more people. There is that balance tho. If I am working on a trail I like to look at what gives it its unique character, and try to improve that or at least sustain that, whether it be visual or in its natural terrain. Balance.
    Personally I have no desire to visit a bike park. That does not thrill me in the least. If there was nothing else however, I am sure I would force myself! But first I would do all I could to get out into the wild somehow. I've been riding bikes off road since the early 60s, and that sense of adventure out in the country is what it is all about for me.
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  18. #18
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    So is it just this trail you are against it should all jump lines be removed? Is A-line at Whistler a bad thing? Generally speaking I ride single track. And enjoy the less intrusive nature of it, but realistically how is this one section of dirt jumps really any worse than 20 miles of trail. This thing is like 30 seconds long.

    In terms of which tires of trails there should be, are you arguing there should be no jump lines? No pump tracks? Even at bike parks? Or that there should be under a certain percentage? Should it be determined by length or simply a single pump or jump feature makes it unacceptable?

    I spent 20 days at Angelfire this summer. There are trails that I would consider jump lines and one that has regular large man made features but there are 60+ miles of trails, the vast majority of which are single track that occasionally widen up for features. You can stop pretty much anywhere that isn't piste kept open for ski slopes and feel your in the woods. Even more so if you leave the trail for 10 feet. And this is a privately owned bike park.

    I would have to see evidence for any environmental damage claim. In terms of aesthetics, you sort of have to seek these places out. Around here there are two jump lines that I know of, both user built and can't be seen from legit trails unless you go seek them out. I am sure there are more, but again they are invisible unless you intentionally go find them.

    So I guess I don't understand your issue unless it is not wanting people to like things you don't like.

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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by IPunchCholla View Post
    So I guess I don't understand your issue unless it is not wanting people to like things you don't like.
    It's a common problem when people get older.

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    I just wish I could manual like that.

    Clearly this is in a ski resort somewhere, so I have no issues with the "man made" nature of it and I agree it's better than wooden structures. Where it crosses the ski run, it can obviously be flattened as winter approaches.

    Thanks for posting.
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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    It's a common problem when people get older.
    You'll be there too one day! I am certainly not trying to dictate what others should like, just questioning their choices when there is an alternative that I personally find so much more attractive. When I was younger I had different priorities and might have found a thrill in such things. As it was, I went out with friends to find natural jumps and stuff that we would run over and over again until we had them down. We did not have dirt jumps built so there was never this issue.
    I have been to Angelfire and found it to be good in a lot of places, but I do not enjoy the crowds, and did find some of the features intrusive and plain ugly. It was fun in places, but I would not go back.
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  22. #22
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    I totally agree with minimizing man-made trail features and impacts to the surroundings, but that vid is in a bike park/ski resort, so no foul.

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    ...and to follow up, I've skied/boarded there - there is no shortage of natural beauty. The snow hides all those scars. When I'm riding stuff like that on a bike (well, not even remotely like that really) I am fully engaged in the activity and will check the scenery later.

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  24. #24
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    No, it's not right for every spot, but YES there should be more places to ride this sort of stuff.

    Dirt jumps are nothing short of art, a type of 'kinetic sculpture' as it were.

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  25. #25
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    If you build it they will come. Nothing wrong with this.
    Making shit harder than it needs to be isn't awesome, it's just...harder.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fleas View Post
    ...and to follow up, I've skied/boarded there - there is no shortage of natural beauty. The snow hides all those scars. When I'm riding stuff like that on a bike (well, not even remotely like that really) I am fully engaged in the activity and will check the scenery later.

    -F
    I hear that. When I used to ski, I would look at the beauty of the mountains when not engaged and miss the pylons and such. It was only when I went back to some of those places in the summer that I really saw how ugly all the lifts, pistes etc really were. Hard to argue tho when getting up to those heights is what gives people the experience of the mountain scenery, and the need for the lifts to do it. I wonder where the balance lies?
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  27. #27
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    If it gets them off of singletrack trails, that's fine by me.

    Why? Less crowded, less sanitization, less maintenance required.



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  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    No, it's not right for every spot, but YES there should be more places to ride this sort of stuff.

    Dirt jumps are nothing short of art, a type of 'kinetic sculpture' as it were.

    I can see and understand that too. There is poetry in some of that, but I guess there could be more sympathetic building that does not clash with the natural surroundings
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  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    If it gets them off of singletrack trails, that's fine by me.

    Why? Less crowded, less sanitization, less maintenance required.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    If it gets them off of singletrack trails, that's fine by me.

    Why? Less crowded, less sanitization, less maintenance required.



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    I agree, let the "bros" have their man made flow, at least they're not in my way on the trails or when the pedalling starts
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockerc View Post
    I am certainly not trying to dictate what others should like, just questioning their choices when there is an alternative that I personally find so much more attractive.
    That's like asking, "Why on earth would you like Mexican food when I like Asian so much better???"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    That's like asking, "Why on earth would you like Mexican food when I like Asian so much better???"
    Not true, I like mexican as much as asian...


    But I get your point.
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    weird that the problem is with the narrow trail with jumps and not the massive 200ft wide tree clearnings for the ski slopes veining down the whole mountain and can be seen from miles away

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    Quote Originally Posted by rockerc View Post
    I can see and understand that too. There is poetry in some of that, but I guess there could be more sympathetic building that does not clash with the natural surroundings
    I get what you're saying in general, but how specifically would you suggest doing that? I like a few trees mixed in as far as aesthetics go myself, but the size, shape and spacing of jumps isn't something you have as much flexibility with as compared to building an 16" trail through the woods intended for ground-hugging riders. It's simply a whole different world as far as building goes. I think it's awesome.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cmg71 View Post
    I agree, let the "bros" have their man made flow, at least they're not in my way on the trails or when the pedalling starts
    I know plenty of people with serious jump skills that will definitely not get 'in your way' on the trails.

    I also think there are way too many 'one trick pony' types out there that somehow think that not being versatile at all is somehow a good thing. Weird outlook IMHO. I guess some people have an innate need to feel 'superior'.

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  36. #36
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    I'd like to invoke my 5th amendment on this debate.
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
    I passionately remove rocks and corners and other stuff I find too hard to ride.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rockerc View Post
    Nature can give us plenty of good stuff without having to add to it.
    Unless you are running through untouched forests naked, this argument is invalid. You are simply saying 'only the type of mountain biking I like is valid.'

    To be equally contentious, I'd argue that maybe if you upped your skills a bit a sight like that would be appealing to you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDwayyo View Post
    Unless you are running through untouched forests naked, this argument is invalid. You are simply saying 'only the type of mountain biking I like is valid.'

    To be equally contentious, I'd argue that maybe if you upped your skills a bit a sight like that would be appealing to you.
    Kinda going for the jugular there, aren't ya? Why do all discussions have to turn into these kind of remarks. Sorry for using yours as an example to the multiple ones above it.
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
    I passionately remove rocks and corners and other stuff I find too hard to ride.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    Kinda going for the jugular there, aren't ya? Why do all discussions have to turn into these kind if remarks. Sorry for using yours as an example to the multiple ones above it.
    Well I hope it comes off as partially in jest... But if we're being honest is that not the issue? If he can call someone's hard work 'unsightly' and argue that it should not exist, despite it being somewhere specifically designed for that type of thing, then why can't I point out that it's likely his inadequacy that causes him to take that opinion?

    I hate features I can't ride. I hate trails with features I can't ride... But rather than say those trails suck I work on my skills in hopes some day I will be able to.

    I agree that arguments on the internet turn into attacking each other far too quickly, but I'd argue that in this case it's hard to avoid that argument as it follows logically.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDwayyo View Post
    Well I hope it comes off as partially in jest... But if we're being honest is that not the issue? If he can call someone's hard work 'unsightly' and argue that it should exist, despite it being somewhere specifically designed for that type of thing, then why can't I point out that it's likely his inadequacy that causes him to take that opinion?

    I hate features I can't ride. I hate trails with features I can't ride... But rather than say those trails suck I work on my skills in hopes some day I will be able to.

    I agree that arguments on the internet turn into attacking each other far too quickly, but I'd argue that in this case it's hard to avoid that argument as it follows logically.
    Please don't put words in my mouth. I am not saying these places should not exist, just not in the way they do in many places. I like the picture that slaphead posted above. That looks a whole lot better! Unlike you, I love trails with features I have trouble riding, they spur me to up my game and your jest is unfounded. Calling my skills into question is a little below the belt, I've been riding off road for over 55 years for fukk's sake! I still ride some of the most technical trails in Arizona that I can find, and altho my stamina is not what it used to be I bet I could embarrass a lot of people a whole lot younger than me up and down our mountains here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDwayyo View Post
    Well I hope it comes off as partially in jest... But if we're being honest is that not the issue? If he can call someone's hard work 'unsightly' and argue that it should not exist, despite it being somewhere specifically designed for that type of thing, then why can't I point out that it's likely his inadequacy that causes him to take that opinion?

    I hate features I can't ride. I hate trails with features I can't ride... But rather than say those trails suck I work on my skills in hopes some day I will be able to.

    I agree that arguments on the internet turn into attacking each other far too quickly, but I'd argue that in this case it's hard to avoid that argument as it follows logically.
    I think that there are places that man made features are acceptable, but there are also places that IMO they are not. A bike park or ski resort, great. Public pristine forested land that we have been welcomed on, not so much.
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
    I passionately remove rocks and corners and other stuff I find too hard to ride.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    I think that there are places that man made features are acceptable, but there are also places that IMO they are not. A bike park or ski resort, great. Public pristine forested land that we have been welcomed on, not so much.
    Lots of variables there, but I think I agree with your overall sentiment.

    I work with my local land manager to maintain (and here soon build) man made features on public land, but they are in areas designated (far from pristine) for that for various reasons and it's all reviewed by several parties for ecological impact. Is that such a bad thing?

    Aesthetically I'm a bit of a purist, I don't like any sign man has been there. But here on the east coast we can't put that genie back in the bottle, why not make some trails that are fun, challenging and provide a different ride experience from the IMBA standard that every other trail system in our area seems to be pushing?

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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    I know plenty of people with serious jump skills that will definitely not get 'in your way' on the trails.

    I also think there are way too many 'one trick pony' types out there that somehow think that not being versatile at all is somehow a good thing. Weird outlook IMHO. I guess some people have an innate need to feel 'superior'.

    Meh...
    Funnily enough l have some "jump skills" but now at 46 and too many broken bones later (only about 20% from bikes) l basically do not use them to their full potential anymore, l dont bounce like l used too.
    I also still ride with 2 jumpers, but after 700 elevation metres they are done, which is cool, because l know this and l know them. Ive worked on being more versatile than l was (l even ride a roadie too), and now l am sort of, in that l dont go nuts on jumps anymore, hell my pumptrack visits these days see the bike rarely leave the ground.
    I dont feel superior at all, l feel lucky, but it still annoys me when folks are in my way

    I think you may have misinterpreted the jest in my post, jumpers are welcome on trails l ride, just keep the hell outta my way.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmg71 View Post
    Funnily enough l have some "jump skills" but now at 46 and too many broken bones later (only about 20% from bikes) l basically do not use them to their full potential anymore, l dont bounce like l used too.
    I also still ride with 2 jumpers, but after 700 elevation metres they are done, which is cool, because l know this and l know them. Ive worked on being more versatile than l was (l even ride a roadie too), and now l am sort of, in that l dont go nuts on jumps anymore, hell my pumptrack visits these days see the bike rarely leave the ground.
    I dont feel superior at all, l feel lucky, but it still annoys me when folks are in my way

    I think you may have misinterpreted the jest in my post, jumpers are welcome on trails l ride, just keep the hell outta my way.
    Are you talking about people stopped in the trail? If not, unless you own the trail, it's is not YOUR way they are in.

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    *rolleyes*
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    42 minutes ago:
    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    I'd like to invoke my 5th amendment on this debate.
    34 minutes ago:
    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    Kinda going for the jugular there, aren't ya? Why do all discussions have to turn into these kind of remarks. Sorry for using yours as an example to the multiple ones above it.
    You lasted 8 minutes!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    You lasted 8 minutes!
    I don't feel like googling a Michael Scott meme, but you get the idea.

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    Yeah, there definitely isn't much never-touched forest on the east coast, at least in the northeast. Old growth stand are very rare; we've got a good sized one in my town that's supposedly home to some of the oldest trees in the east. Definitely not a place to build trails of any sort, but since almost 100% of our woods are second growth, 'pristine forest' just isn't something that omes in to play around here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Some of the building goes too far and should use natural drops and rocks. It's a balance IMO.
    I agree when there are natural rocks and drops available. Most builders aren't going to spend 60 hours building a massive wood ladder drop if there is a natural cliff 10 yards away that would take 2 hours to shape a transition on the landing.

    I'd prefer to ride natural cliff drops, slabs, boulders and rock rolls all day long over built wooden features, but when none are available, I don't have a problem with man made features, unless we are talking pristine multi-use back-country trails.

    One of the places I ride has a ton of built wooden features. Very pretty section of forest too. Are they unsightly? Not a bit compared to the 200 acre clear cut right next to it, or the thousands of other acres of bare clear cut you can see from the view at the top of the mountain.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cmg71 View Post
    Funnily enough l have some "jump skills" but now at 46 and too many broken bones later (only about 20% from bikes) l basically do not use them to their full potential anymore, l dont bounce like l used too.
    I also still ride with 2 jumpers, but after 700 elevation metres they are done, which is cool, because l know this and l know them. Ive worked on being more versatile than l was (l even ride a roadie too), and now l am sort of, in that l dont go nuts on jumps anymore, hell my pumptrack visits these days see the bike rarely leave the ground.
    I dont feel superior at all, l feel lucky, but it still annoys me when folks are in my way

    I think you may have misinterpreted the jest in my post, jumpers are welcome on trails l ride, just keep the hell outta my way.
    Fair enough!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    42 minutes ago:

    34 minutes ago:

    You lasted 8 minutes!
    Doh!


    I was hoping nobody caught that.
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
    I passionately remove rocks and corners and other stuff I find too hard to ride.

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    There is enough room in the forest for everyone to have what they want, so long as there are enough of them that like that specific thing to actually build it.

    For example, I like natural terrain trails as much as possible, and I don't like what are essentially fall line trails because 1) I lose hard earned elevation too fast and 2) the trail almost always suffers from erosion problems.

    I don't like mandatory jumps because gravity is the law, and I'm too old to keep being a law breaker.

    So I don't begrudge others having what they want too, so long as they don't change the trails I do like to become what they like instead.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    Doh!


    I was hoping nobody caught that.
    LOL, at least you tried. I wouldn't have even tried.

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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    I know plenty of people with serious jump skills that will definitely not get 'in your way' on the trails.

    I also think there are way too many 'one trick pony' types out there that somehow think that not being versatile at all is somehow a good thing. Weird outlook IMHO. I guess some people have an innate need to feel 'superior'.

    Meh...
    Excellent post. I don't get the narrow minded attitudes either. I always admired guys like John Tomac who could race BMX, road, XC, and DH all at a pro level. Give that type of guy anything with 2 wheels and he's gonna rip.

    That right there is badass. I've been riding over 30 years, started racing BMX as a kid, moved on to MTB riding and racing (XC, dual slalom, DH), road racing, and cyclocross.

    I've enjoyed every one of those cycling disciplines. Now days, I'm focused nearly 100% back on mountain bikes, but my riding ranges from 6+ hour XC pedal fests to full on freeride and DH park days. At times I'm sure the haters have looked at me and sneered calling me anything from a spandex warrior to a full on DH stormtrooper.

    I could care less. As long as I have the opportunity to keep pushing my limits and progressing my skills, I'm happy.

    God forbid somebody else has fun on 2 wheels in any way other than exactly the way you do. The horror!

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    Yup. The truly 'best' riders out there can do it all.

    More sweet DJs in the trees...

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    Beautiful, wish more trails systems had some of this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Yup. The truly 'best' riders out there can do it all.
    Not calling myself 'best' or even 'good,' but that's at least my ambition. I consider myself a gravity rider, but fitness is also important to me. Being the fastest to the bottom is a good feeling, but being the fastest up the next climb to the shock and awe of the guys in spandex is a pretty damn good feeling too. The way I see it, if I can ride it all I stand to have the most fun... I'll be right at home on any new trail I should find myself on.

    That's basically my goal with mountain biking; travel and find new experiences... You gotta have the skills AND fitness for that to work. This summer I was out west and it was nice to know that while I may walk some super techy DH sections and I may cough up a lung on some long climbs, neither are going to be completely out of the realm of possibility for me. I could 'hang' anywhere. Otherwise I'd have missed out on some great rides.

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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Yup. The truly 'best' riders out there can do it all.

    More sweet DJs in the trees...

    This is quite beautiful, and I'm not talking about the rider. When stuff is made to blend in better, it is much more palatable. This could use even more 'landscaping' too tho, and I guess this would come with time.
    Of course, there is the fact that I will probably never go to somewhere like this, so what do I care? That is valid too. I still think that aesthetics are as important as anything tho. Even if the tree falls in the forest and I'm not there, I may well feel its effect some time!
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    I like to ride with headphones.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rockerc View Post
    ...We did not have dirt jumps built so there was never this issue....
    LOLZ!!! typical poacher mentality. that what the shovel is for dude. all the jump spots i ride (and they are numerous) i helped build, all the trails i ride (equally as numerous) i also helped build. it's a very rare day i ride anywhere i had no involvement it in some way. people always seem to think places to ride just grow themselves...


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    I feel like there is enough forest in the world to have some of everything, and like to occasionally ride some of everything.

    This is excellent because in the real world it actually exists despite the constant outrage and gnashing of teeth at people who have different ideas and preferences than somebody else.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockerc View Post
    Of course, there is the fact that I will probably never go to somewhere like this, so what do I care?
    Just because it's really cool to see people putting in the incredible amount of time, energy and artistry it takes to build and ride that sort of stuff. Maybe not so much the big ski area trails - those are a different kind of story, machine built and designed for massive numbers of riders, they're just by nature more 'obtrusive' aesthetically. But you can't help but marvel at stuff like this, the dedication it takes to build at this level, under the radar for the most part and always in danger of being destroyed at any moment...I dunno, I have a lot of appreciation for the whole BMX/DJ scene and also think it's great that there's a lot of crossover with MTB these days. It's a cool thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rockerc View Post
    ...Of course, there is the fact that I will probably never go to somewhere like this, so what do I care?
    oh please, now you're just making yourself look silly. the only reason for this whole thread thread is because you DO care...


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    Quote Originally Posted by rockerc View Post
    I am not talking about the park as a whole, but the jumps and man made obstacles. My preference is for natural stuff and I find these things ugly. I would hate to see biking becoming a sport that is relegated to such places with the allure of mountain biking sanitized and confined to closed courses. I guess with popularity comes that confinement as natural resources dwindle.
    Just not for me. For me, bikes are about going places in a less structured or programmed way. That park looks like fun but wouldn't hold my interest long. Too much like a human habitrail. A nice playground but that's all.

    I would like to see that rider go in the other direction.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RonSonic View Post
    Just not for me. For me, bikes are about going places in a less structured or programmed way. That park looks like fun but wouldn't hold my interest long. Too much like a human habitrail. A nice playground but that's all.

    I would like to see that rider go in the other direction.
    Just curious, how do you ride a bike in a less structured way? Aren't you on a trail? Or are you talking about free riding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    I know plenty of people with serious jump skills that will definitely not get 'in your way' on the trails.

    I also think there are way too many 'one trick pony' types out there that somehow think that not being versatile at all is somehow a good thing. Weird outlook IMHO. I guess some people have an innate need to feel 'superior'.

    Meh...

    Thanks for saving me the typing. The narrow-mindedness is usually jealously. I ride everything including the XL jump lines to pure DH to endurance XC. I wonder how many of these guys that post shit like that would be absolutely wrecked after trying a DH or Enduro race, after all there's no need to pedal anywhere
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    Quote Originally Posted by Streetdoctor View Post
    The narrow-mindedness is usually jealously.
    I wouldn't state it quite that simply, but I think you're not far off. It may not be conscious, but I think I think it happens. I'll admit to catching myself doing it a few times; I'm still working up to some big gap jumps in my area and in some rare moments of frustration over it I've said things like 'that's just not my thing.' When I think more rationally I know that totally would be 'my thing' if I could do it and I hope it will be some day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rockerc View Post
    Please don't put words in my mouth. I am not saying these places should not exist, just not in the way they do in many places. I like the picture that slaphead posted above. That looks a whole lot better! Unlike you, I love trails with features I have trouble riding, they spur me to up my game and your jest is unfounded. Calling my skills into question is a little below the belt, I've been riding off road for over 55 years for fukk's sake! I still ride some of the most technical trails in Arizona that I can find, and altho my stamina is not what it used to be I bet I could embarrass a lot of people a whole lot younger than me up and down our mountains here.
    Somehow I missed this.

    First off I'm not sure there's enough distinction between 'not existing' and 'not existing the way they do in many places.' Should land managers consult you before any new builds to make sure their ideas meet your criteria?

    I think we are saying the same thing in regards to features we can't ride; I hate that I can't ride them but that motivates me to improve my skills, which is the whole reason I ride.

    I'd agree that calling your skill into question is a bit below the belt, but so is saying that trails that clearly don't appeal to you are somehow invalid because you don't see the value. The trail you showed is on private property, as are 90% of trails like it... Frankly that's none of your business to critique, any more than your skills are my business to critique.

    I don't doubt that you are a strong rider for your style of riding, but that's not what we are discussing here. Your posts make it clear you can not and do not ride the style of trails we are discussing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by .WestCoastHucker. View Post
    LOLZ!!! typical poacher mentality. that what the shovel is for dude. all the jump spots i ride (and they are numerous) i helped build, all the trails i ride (equally as numerous) i also helped build. it's a very rare day i ride anywhere i had no involvement it in some way. people always seem to think places to ride just grow themselves...
    You have absolutely no idea what I do to build and maintain trails, so please STFU about this "typical poacher mentality". I spend many hours up on the mountains near my house maintaining trails that I helped build or improve in the first place many years ago. When I was a kid, I used to go out and build jumps and stuff in waste land near my house so we could do just the things kids love to do on bikes, much the same as today, only difference being that we had to chop and make our bikes more suitable since nothing existed then to ride like they do now. The concept of these dirt parks did not even exist back then, altho in the mid 60s when I lived in Germany we built a course that incorporated old bomb shelters and self-built dirt piles as jumps.
    Bully for you for helping with the shovel, you are not the only one in the world that does this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDwayyo View Post
    Somehow I missed this.

    Should land managers consult you before any new builds to make sure their ideas meet your criteria?

    ...

    Your posts make it clear you can not and do not ride the style of trails we are discussing.
    Of course not! All i am saying is I wish land managers would take more into account the aesthetics of the places they build, especially out in the wilds, whether in parks or not.

    And you are correct, I cannot ride like they do in the video, altho when I was younger I would love getting whatever air equipment, terrain and bravado would get me. In my 60s now and the mind is willing, but the body...
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockerc View Post
    You have absolutely no idea what I do to build and maintain trails...
    you are correct. you did state that you didn't have anything built, which means you weren't building anything(then). i didn't mean to come across that you do not do your fair share(or possibly much more than your share) in todays world. i'm not quite your age, but i've certainly been at this for 40 years now, so i'm not a young kid either. just like you, bike parks and real bmx bikes didn't exist at the time, so my friends and i would just start making stuff too. i found out then that i liked building as much as riding. i just wish i had a dime for every time i was told i was lucky to have the places i ride. i've had so many different places plowed that i don't think i could even honestly remember. lucky isn't finding a secluded spot and then spending more time behind the required tools for the spot to exist in the first place. never knowing if it will be there the next time you come back. so i apologize for the attack, i just obviously have a thing for poachers...


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    Quote Originally Posted by IPunchCholla View Post
    Just curious, how do you ride a bike in a less structured way?
    he rides on the moon...


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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDwayyo View Post
    I wouldn't state it quite that simply, but I think you're not far off. It may not be conscious, but I think I think it happens. I'll admit to catching myself doing it a few times; I'm still working up to some big gap jumps in my area and in some rare moments of frustration over it I've said things like 'that's just not my thing.' When I think more rationally I know that totally would be 'my thing' if I could do it and I hope it will be some day.
    It kind of reminds me of older car guys I've been around. They have their views about what a car should be like, think new cars are crap and don't want to entertain the idea that the cars of their childhood dreams are not as fast or well made as the newer cars coming out.

    I can imagine that guys that have been riding mtb for 15+ years a certain way and view themselves as advanced riders are going to be a little salty when people come along doing things they can't and the sport looks different than when they started.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rockerc View Post
    1. Of course not! All i am saying is I wish land managers would take more into account the aesthetics of the places they build, especially out in the wilds, whether in parks or not.

    2. And you are correct, I cannot ride like they do in the video, altho when I was younger I would love getting whatever air equipment, terrain and bravado would get me. In my 60s now and the mind is willing, but the body...
    1. Who said they don't? Aesthetics is wildly subjective and this thread makes it clear your idea of an aesthetically pleasing trail system is not the same as others. Nothing wrong with that, until someone (you in this case) starts telling people their opinion matters more.

    2. That's cool. Nothing wrong with that either... Again, until you start talking as though your type of riding is more legitimate. The only thing that dictates legitimate versus not legitimate is the relationship the builder has with the land manager. If those dirt jumps are illegally built, then yes that's a bad thing. Otherwise, it's not my place to say.

    I'm not trying to be condescending, but you seem to miss that your whole argument is completely condescending. Hard to not come off as combative when trying to help you see that. Thanks for continuing to discuss the topic, rather than degrading the conversation further. I hope from your perspective I've done the same, that was certainly my intention.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDwayyo View Post
    1. Who said they don't? Aesthetics is wildly subjective and this thread makes it clear your idea of an aesthetically pleasing trail system is not the same as others. Nothing wrong with that, until someone (you in this case) starts telling people their opinion matters more.

    2. That's cool. Nothing wrong with that either... Again, until you start talking as though your type of riding is more legitimate. The only thing that dictates legitimate versus not legitimate is the relationship the builder has with the land manager. If those dirt jumps are illegally built, then yes that's a bad thing. Otherwise, it's not my place to say.

    I'm not trying to be condescending, but you seem to miss that your whole argument is completely condescending. Hard to not come off as combative when trying to help you see that. Thanks for continuing to discuss the topic, rather than degrading the conversation further. I hope from your perspective I've done the same, that was certainly my intention.
    I don't think I said that my opinion mattered more, just that I have my opinion. If that was what was understood, then apologies. I certainly do understand that my concept of beauty is not shared by all. I am sure when a dirt rider looks at a series of jumps, they do not see the surroundings, but rather just a series of jumps. I am only saying it'd be better in my mind if there was a larger effort to blend them in with the scenery.
    By the same token, I do not think I claimed my riding was in any way more legit, just that it is my personal choice of riding style. The comments I made about dirt jumping were more that I am too long in the tooth these days to get serious about it. I used to love launching off jumps when I bounced well!
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    Quote Originally Posted by .WestCoastHucker. View Post
    you are correct. you did state that you didn't have anything built, which means you weren't building anything(then). i didn't mean to come across that you do not do your fair share(or possibly much more than your share) in todays world. i'm not quite your age, but i've certainly been at this for 40 years now, so i'm not a young kid either. just like you, bike parks and real bmx bikes didn't exist at the time, so my friends and i would just start making stuff too. i found out then that i liked building as much as riding. i just wish i had a dime for every time i was told i was lucky to have the places i ride. i've had so many different places plowed that i don't think i could even honestly remember. lucky isn't finding a secluded spot and then spending more time behind the required tools for the spot to exist in the first place. never knowing if it will be there the next time you come back. so i apologize for the attack, i just obviously have a thing for poachers...
    Thanks. Maybe the confusion was in that there were no parks anywhere back in my youth. BMX would be some years in the future, so what we did was make sh1t up that seemed like a good idea at the time for thrills. Like I said, bikes were totally unsuitable so we cut them down, made 'em as light as possible, and painted them orange
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockerc View Post
    I don't think I said that my opinion mattered more, just that I have my opinion. If that was what was understood, then apologies. I certainly do understand that my concept of beauty is not shared by all.
    See below, not saying outright that your opinion is more important but certainly stating your opinion as fact:

    Quote Originally Posted by rockerc View Post
    I take some issue at the ugliness of the dirt jump course out in the forest.
    Quote Originally Posted by rockerc View Post
    I would hate to see biking becoming a sport that is relegated to such places with the allure of mountain biking sanitized and confined to closed courses.
    Quote Originally Posted by rockerc View Post
    I am not saying these places should not exist, just not in the way they do in many places.
    Quote Originally Posted by rockerc View Post
    This could use even more 'landscaping' too tho, and I guess this would come with time.
    Quote Originally Posted by rockerc View Post
    All i am saying is I wish land managers would take more into account the aesthetics of the places they build, especially out in the wilds, whether in parks or not.
    But perhaps the best example was in your response to me just now:

    Quote Originally Posted by rockerc View Post
    I am sure when a dirt rider looks at a series of jumps, they do not see the surroundings, but rather just a series of jumps.
    I am not certain of that. In fact I'm certain of the opposite... But the difference is I am one of those people who you are speaking for. You have made it clear you are not. Again, stating your opinions as fact.

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    I know for a fact that there are lots of non-riders out there that look at even narrow, natural-style MTB trails as obtrusive scars on the landscape. It's all just a matter of perspective.
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    I know for a fact that there are lots of non-riders out there that look at even narrow, natural-style MTB trails as obtrusive scars on the landscape. It's all just a matter of perspective.
    True, when I was riding out on the Moors in N Yorkshire in the 80s one time in the early days of dedicated MTB gear, I was wearing some very 80s stuff that was garish to say the least. I met an old lady hiker in her Barbour and wellies who stopped me to tell me that she hated people on bicycles on the trails. When I asked her why, she said because we were eyesores in our brightly colored clothes. I thought she was just a crazy old bat at the time, but I am beginning to understand where she was coming from!
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    Quote Originally Posted by IPunchCholla View Post
    Just curious, how do you ride a bike in a less structured way? Aren't you on a trail? Or are you talking about free riding.

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    What I mean by less structured is not being limited to a packaged, pre-planned experience.

    That's how I got into off-road riding in the first place, saw a trail that crossed the road I was riding on, started down it. Discovered that I needed a different bike for that. Went from road to cyclocross racing and gravel/trail riding. That led to straight up mountain* biking.

    Fun has a balance of predictable and unplanned. Getting lost in the woods for long isn't fun, but finding your way into and out of the woods is fun. I once spent a day on a road bike pedaling around Central Florida staying away from the rain clouds. I'll still get lost in a forest finding a new path.

    * "mountain" really doesn't have anything to do with where I live, but that's still what we call it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RonSonic View Post
    What I mean by less structured is not being limited to a packaged, pre-planned experience.
    As in a trail? I guess you could bushwhack but itís usually frowned upon unless the riding surface can handle it (e.g., slickrock, snow, beaches).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    As in a trail? I guess you could bushwhack but itís usually frowned upon unless the riding surface can handle it (e.g., slickrock, snow, beaches).
    Pretty sure he's talking about keeping a sense of adventure in his riding, getting out into places that are unknown to him and finding his way around. Eventually! I love to get out into wild places where I might not see another soul all day. I am lucky here in Arizona since remote is just up the trail close at hand. Where RonSonic lives part of that adventurism is in his mind perhaps, but its all good. When I was young, my horizons were tighter, and I could find adventure in close proximity. It is quite a way from dirt riding in a jump area tho. Each to their own.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockerc View Post
    Pretty sure he's talking about keeping a sense of adventure in his riding, getting out into places that are unknown to him and finding his way around. Eventually! I love to get out into wild places where I might not see another soul all day. I am lucky here in Arizona since remote is just up the trail close at hand. Where RonSonic lives part of that adventurism is in his mind perhaps, but its all good. When I was young, my horizons were tighter, and I could find adventure in close proximity. It is quite a way from dirt riding in a jump area tho. Each to their own.
    Funny thing is, it seems that a lot of people tend to assume that everyone only rides one particular way every single time they get on a bike. Most of the guys that you see killing big jump lines are guys that also spend a ton of time riding multiple disciplines. I think part of this is projection; it's usually folks that are locked in to one niche and never really make any effort to expand their horizons beyond that that assume everyone else is also a one-trick pony.

    It's like only listening to one sub-genre of music for your entire life and assuming everyone else does too. Meanwhile, there are folks who might listen to funk on Monday, punk on Tuesday, classic rock on Wednesday, etc. Or...mindblowing concept...they might even listen mix them all up in a single day! The one-genre folks might hear them blasting one certain song at one time, and immediately make all sorts of baseless assumptions when in fact, it's they that really just can't see the forest for the trees.

    For example, two videos featuring the same rider.
    Watch the first, let yourself make all the prejudgments you may be familiar with making about things like not being "adventurous" or fit enough to climb, or any other such crap that one-trick ponies tend to find themselves believing, then watch the second and realize that making assumptions about things you aren't familiar with works out about as well as it always has.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4J3L0oKUPU

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUlWK3qh9PY

    IME, a LOT of riders enjoy the multi-facetedness of the sport. I almost feel sorry for those that lock themselves in to just one style and tend to look down a bit on other styles they know little to nothing about. Kind of like that guy that spends his entire life listening only to classic rock. I'm sure he's happy cranking his Eagles album for the 4000000th time, and quite proud to have never listened to a James Brown tune, but I think that's a really good way to miss out on a whole lot of good stuff myself.
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    Looks like a blast to me (if I had those skills). More power to em!


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    Quote Originally Posted by RonSonic View Post
    What I mean by less structured is not being limited to a packaged, pre-planned experience.

    That's how I got into off-road riding in the first place, saw a trail that crossed the road I was riding on, started down it. Discovered that I needed a different bike for that. Went from road to cyclocross racing and gravel/trail riding. That led to straight up mountain* biking.

    Fun has a balance of predictable and unplanned. Getting lost in the woods for long isn't fun, but finding your way into and out of the woods is fun. I once spent a day on a road bike pedaling around Central Florida staying away from the rain clouds. I'll still get lost in a forest finding a new path.

    * "mountain" really doesn't have anything to do with where I live, but that's still what we call it.
    That makes sense. I like riding into the unknown too. Trying out new trails and riding new places. Don't do it as much as I would like, since I almost always ride alone out of cell contact so I tend to be a bit cautious about biting off more than I can chew.

    I also like riding trails I've ridden many, many times before, refining lines, pushing my abilities, finding and going past an edge I didn't think I could get past. I like finding new ways to ride the same section, finding moments of creativity and style.

    I don't really see one terrain or the other as superior just different ways of playing on my bike. Both can be a bit frightening and risky and both make me feel like I'm growing while still being a little kid riding my bike in the woods.

    I think I was reacting to the habitrail comment which seemed dismissive to me when after all, all trails are built surfaces and once you have ridden it a few times the experience is going to be largely determined before you start. The pleasure is in riding that experience in the way that suits you.

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  86. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Funny thing is, it seems that a lot of people tend to assume that everyone only rides one particular way every single time they get on a bike. Most of the guys that you see killing big jump lines are guys that also spend a ton of time riding multiple disciplines. I think part of this is projection; it's usually folks that are locked in to one niche and never really make any effort to expand their horizons beyond that that assume everyone else is also a one-trick pony.

    It's like only listening to one sub-genre of music for your entire life and assuming everyone else does too. Meanwhile, there are folks who might listen to funk on Monday, punk on Tuesday, classic rock on Wednesday, etc. Or...mindblowing concept...they might even listen mix them all up in a single day! The one-genre folks might hear them blasting one certain song at one time, and immediately make all sorts of baseless assumptions when in fact, it's they that really just can't see the forest for the trees.

    For example, two videos featuring the same rider.
    Watch the first, let yourself make all the prejudgments you may be familiar with making about things like not being "adventurous" or fit enough to climb, or any other such crap that one-trick ponies tend to find themselves believing, then watch the second and realize that making assumptions about things you aren't familiar with works out about as well as it always has.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4J3L0oKUPU

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUlWK3qh9PY

    IME, a LOT of riders enjoy the multi-facetedness of the sport. I almost feel sorry for those that lock themselves in to just one style and tend to look down a bit on other styles they know little to nothing about. Kind of like that guy that spends his entire life listening only to classic rock. I'm sure he's happy cranking his Eagles album for the 4000000th time, and quite proud to have never listened to a James Brown tune, but I think that's a really good way to miss out on a whole lot of good stuff myself.
    Nicely said!

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  87. #87
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    Personally, I like to vary what I ride, but am mostly limited to trails near my house as I like to ride at least every other day, and I simply do not have the time to venture too far with the pressure of work and the rest of life. Also, DJ riding is not for me any more as I am a bit long in the tooth as I mentioned. Having said that, there are some trails I ride here every so often with some whoop de doos that allow some pretty good air at speed, and I do enjoy running those when I have time to get there. I am sure many people have similar issues and their riding is similarly limited. Given the chance, they may well enjoy other styles.
    As for the musical analogy, I enjoy all kinds of music, but there are kinds I listen to more often than others. I've been riding long enough, and listening long enough to know what I like.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockerc View Post
    As for the musical analogy, I enjoy all kinds of music, but there are kinds I listen to more often than others. I've been riding long enough, and listening long enough to know what I like.
    Which, again, is fine. Your tastes are your tastes; we all tend to eat what we like, listen to what we like, ride what we like.
    But I'm sure you'll agree that just because some else's tastes may be a bit different, they're not inherently inferior, yeah?
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  89. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Which, again, is fine. Your tastes are your tastes; we all tend to eat what we like, listen to what we like, ride what we like.
    But I'm sure you'll agree that just because some else's tastes may be a bit different, they're not inherently inferior, yeah?
    Of course I agree with that. I do not think I ever suggested otherwise, just that my aesthetic senses were different to many, and wished it were otherwise. Just because I have a different opinion about something, and say as much, does not presuppose I think someone else's opinion is inferior... Not everything needs to mirror 'political discourse'!
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    Quote Originally Posted by IPunchCholla View Post
    That makes sense. I like riding into the unknown too. Trying out new trails and riding new places. Don't do it as much as I would like, since I almost always ride alone or if cell contact so I tend to be a bit cautious about buying of more than I can chew.

    I also like riding trails I've ridden many, many times before, refining lines, pushing my abilities, finding and going past an edge I didn't think I could get past. I also like finding new ways to ride the same section, finding moments of creativity and style.

    I don't really see one terrain or the other as superior just different ways of playing on my bike. Both can be a bit frightening and risky and both make me feel like I'm growing while still being a little kid riding my bike in the woods.

    I think I was reacting to the habitrail comment which seemed different to me when after all, all trails are built surfaces and once you have ridden it a few times the experience is going to be largely determined before you start. The pleasure is in riding that experience in the way that suits you.

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    Yeah, you got my meaning. It's a balance, familiar and new; dialing in a section and nailing it versus riding some crazy stuff you never saw before and hoping for the best.

    In all, I prefer more "natural" sorts of trails mostly.

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    Yeah, nothing like coming up on a rough, chunky, ledgy descent you have never ridden before and just letting the breaks go with a deep breath and faith you can make it through. The joy when you successfully do is amazing. I love natural stuff!

    There is also this one trail at Angel Fire, Boulder Dash, that I think is around 2.5 - 3 miles long dropping 1500 feet that has like 80 table tops, step ups, and step downs. While there is still this one sequence I can't quite clear, the first time I made all of the other jumps (some of which the first day of the season scared the crap out of me), I was just grinning ear to ear. Now it is like dancing, I know how fast I have to maintain through one berm (really pushing the limits of my turning ability) if I want to clear the next table top. I know to carry speed though the next berm, I need to set-up right on the preceding step down and not carry to far. And that last corner, well if you whip it a little off the preceding jump, you can take way more speed through it. I suppose it is a bit habitrail like, but there is a flow to it that is pretty amazing. To break it up though I'll run trails that are near continuous single track rock gardens, or run super windy through the trees. One of my goals for next season is to ride the A-line of World Cup top to bottom. I can do the natural stuff (some serious rock gardens in there), but a couple of the road gap step downs freak me out.

    In between trips to AF and in the off-season I ride single track. There is still a ton around here for me to ride, so I seek out the occasional new trail system while pushing my abilities on the ones I know well. There is some unofficial trials under the powerlines on the edge of town that I am planning on sessioning. These super steep slab sequences and repetitive ledges that I am always pulling up on and dabbing.

    Anyway, I just think there is room for it all.
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  92. #92
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    So now we know what rocker likes. This thread is a waste of zeros and ones, so here are some more. 000011100001111110000110000011000
    Keep trying to do the awesomest thing you've ever done.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bamwa View Post
    So now we know what rocker likes. This thread is a waste of zeros and ones, so here are some more. 000011100001111110000110000011000
    I find those zeros and ones to be ugly and unnatural, marring the natural beauty of the English alphabet. I wish people wouldn't use them anymore.

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  94. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockerc View Post
    Nature can give us plenty of good stuff without having to add to it.
    You realize that's a man-made forest? Yeah... kinda complicates the whole argument eh?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    You realize that's a man-made forest? Yeah... kinda complicates the whole argument eh?
    You are referring to this one, correct?

    Justifiable or just plain unsightly-4233faa7-8ff5-40dd-8466-9541f2034fab.jpeg
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
    I passionately remove rocks and corners and other stuff I find too hard to ride.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alexbn921 View Post
    If you build it they will come.
    And this ^^^^^^ is a good thing?????

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    My opinion. Keep the dirt jumps, pump tracks, and other such pasturized , homogenized amusement park like riding separate from what many of us would consider to be MTB trails.

    There's a trail in Northern Nh that is pretty iconic as a test piece climb and pretty damn awesome descent which drops a good 15-1600 vert from the top of the mountain with 360 degree views down to the bottom over 4 miles or so. Amazing trail up or down. I've been riding it for over 15 years and have helped some on my own cleaning up the trail in spring. The whole trail is narrow old school singletrack with rocks, roots and gorgeous views in spots. In one area on the lower 3rd the trail sweeps down thru a nice open meadow then enters back into the woods maybe 3-400 yards later. Well some guy moved to or back to the area that had been a Whistler trail builder and proposed bringing a friggin bulldozer and turning that gorgeous meadow into dually truck wide table tops, berms and other such nonsense. I say nonsense because it totally looks out of place on this epic backcountry iconic backcountry-esque trail. Yeah I have a friggin problem with that. Keep that $hit separate.

  98. #98
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    My favorite trails incorporate a high alpine single track experience with some challenging flow trail style features.

    Example:


  99. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by HacksawReynolds View Post
    My opinion. Keep the dirt jumps, pump tracks, and other such pasturized , homogenized amusement park like riding separate from what many of us would consider to be MTB trails.

    There's a trail in Northern Nh that is pretty iconic as a test piece climb and pretty damn awesome descent which drops a good 15-1600 vert from the top of the mountain with 360 degree views down to the bottom over 4 miles or so. Amazing trail up or down. I've been riding it for over 15 years and have helped some on my own cleaning up the trail in spring. The whole trail is narrow old school singletrack with rocks, roots and gorgeous views in spots. In one area on the lower 3rd the trail sweeps down thru a nice open meadow then enters back into the woods maybe 3-400 yards later. Well some guy moved to or back to the area that had been a Whistler trail builder and proposed bringing a friggin bulldozer and turning that gorgeous meadow into dually truck wide table tops, berms and other such nonsense. I say nonsense because it totally looks out of place on this epic backcountry iconic backcountry-esque trail. Yeah I have a friggin problem with that. Keep that $hit separate.
    That sounds like an awesome trail as it is and a totally inappropriate setting for what he is proposing.

    That being said, I don't believe it is a totally binary situation all the time. At the bike park I go to there is a single track trail that drops 2000 feet over 4 miles. There are also wide jump lines and everything in between.

    Locally we have rough natural surface rocky trails that make challenging rides up or down that parallel a flowy line with big gap doubles, flowy berms, rocky single track, and natural features. They go up on top of the ridges while the other is down in the valley. Easy to make long loops that incorporates it all.

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  100. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    My favorite trails incorporate a high alpine single track experience with some challenging flow trail style features.

    Example:

    Dialed
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
    I passionately remove rocks and corners and other stuff I find too hard to ride.

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