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  1. #26
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    my tallboy ltc is 26.5 pounds right now. The dropper post weighs 560g, vs 200g for my thompson masterpiece. My saddle was 285g, could get it down to about 150g.

    XX1 would save about 1.5 pounds over my current slx/XT drivetrain for about 1K. So for maybe 1.2K I could save 2.5 pounds.

    It doesnt seem worth it...

  2. #27
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    To make the biggest differnce, a lot of money, since wheels are expensive. To make a smaller, but more noticeable differnce than other components (besides the wheels) reducing the seat and post weight shouldnt cost too much.

    From my experience, (not my knowledge of physics because I really don't know that much about it, so anyone who does please chime in to correct) the two best places, that will make the most noticeable difference, to drop weight on a bike is the rims/tires and the seat/post.

    Dropping the wheel weight will have a bigger impact than dropping the same weight anywhere else because not only is the wheels mass moving along with the bike frame and all other components, but since the wheel is also spinning, it has more (i think about double the) kinetic energy than the frame/components, which I believe means it takes twice as much work per lb to get up to speed. Which I also think means that weight taken off the wheels will have twice the weight loss effect than taking it off the frame/components. Also, heavier wheels rotating at high speeds will feel heavier to steer due to greater gyroscopic or centrifical (not really sure which one) forces. Lighter wheels means more agile turns and better control. (not sure if reducing the hub weight would have as much as an effect as reducing the rim or tire weight, I have only changed out complete wheels.)

    The second best (and less expensive) place to lose the weight is the seat/post, since this is the highest point on the bike. Reducing weight here will help to lower the center of gravity and more importantly, make the bike feel more nimble and quicker to shift around especially when standing. (this is why I do not like heavy seats and try not to use seat bags or dropper seat post when I do not have to. Too much weight too high up, although I do admit I will use a seat bag if i need to carry a little bit of stuff [i avoid the backpack when i can since it puts the weight even that much higher] and dropper seat posts are very convenient)

    This is from my experience of tweaking with bike weight in different places since I started mountain biking as a wee lad in '89. Thats my experience, not knowledge of physics, so the bigger differnce in weight loss i felt from just these two places might just be all in my head and it might not matter where you drop the weight, but I am pretty sure it does.
    Get out of the gutter and onto the mountain top.

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  3. #28
    High Desert MTBer
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    It's all Here. Now.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Pivot View Post
    At a point, you start giving up a lot of performance to go lighter. At 26 pounds on most mountain bikes, you're more than likely buying unreliability and flexy parts trying to hit 24, or tires with no traction and questionable rims.
    I was hoping to read this !!
    To light for rider/style does equal a whimpy/broken bike, and wasted money.

  5. #30
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    Get a loan , call up ENVE and order . Problem solved .

  6. #31
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    Know where the "porker" components are. On lower end bikes, things like the cassette, handlebar, saddle, and wheels are usually the main culprits.

    Things like the seatpost, pedals (except if you switch to basic eggbeaters), stem, headset, derailers, brakes, and actually, wheels, are extremely cost inefficient to replace and save weight.

    Only the crankset if it's a real low end bike or you are thinking about going to 1x10/1x11.

    I put wheels in both categories because high end hubs with aluminum/titanium freewheel mechs are extremely expensive. On the other hand, it's only about 100g for the rear hub that you'd usually be saving and the front hub is usually within a few grams of a "high end" model to start with. If you lay down $300 for some chinese carbon rims you can save a bunch of weight, but you'll need spokes and nipples and the real cost efficient way to do this is build your own, rather than have someone else build or buy a 600+ wheelset.

    Otherwise, when your bike has a front derailer think about switching out the rear cassette for a road 11-28t version, realize that most people never use the 1:1 combo because the gearing is so low, and you can usually train and easily overcome any lack of gearing in this way (because singlespeeders ride the same trails and have no gearing at all!), and then a light carbon handlebar, light ti or carbon railed saddle, and so on...
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  7. #32
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    Again, it depends on where you start and what you have already done. Cranks are a great place to save weight. Many are anchors and no one notices.
    I don't rattle.

  8. #33
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    For all those wondering about how much difference 2.5 lbs of non-wheel weight matters, here is the test:

    Fill two water bottles with 40 oz of water. That's not even two small (22 oz) bottles filled.

    Go for a ride and see if you notice the difference with them full or empty. If you seriously think you can tell the difference, then have a friend swap out full and empty bottles that you can't see inside of and see if you can tell which is which. I seriously doubt most folks would guess correctly more than 50% of the time. Perhaps on an 17 lb road bike you could tell, but not on most 26 lbs bikes.

    I'm sure that measured over a long distance, there will be some difference in either speed or exertion, and this matters in a race. That said I am highly skeptical of predictions based on wattage calculations. Total Wattage to average speed is not some linear relationship in a bike race. I would be surprised if it is even on most climbs other than a relatively smooth and steady one.
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by kapusta View Post
    For all those wondering about how much difference 2.5 lbs of non-wheel weight matters, here is the test:

    Fill two water bottles with 40 oz of water. That's not even two small (22 oz) bottles filled.

    Go for a ride and see if you notice the difference with them full or empty. If you seriously think you can tell the difference, then have a friend swap out full and empty bottles that you can't see inside of and see if you can tell which is which. I seriously doubt most folks would guess correctly more than 50% of the time. Perhaps on an 17 lb road bike you could tell, but not on most 26 lbs bikes.

    I'm sure that measured over a long distance, there will be some difference in either speed or exertion, and this matters in a race. That said I am highly skeptical of predictions based on wattage calculations. Total Wattage to average speed is not some linear relationship in a bike race. I would be surprised if it is even on most climbs other than a relatively smooth and steady one.
    I get what you are saying. I suppose if you are riding somewhat smooth singletrack that static weight wont have much of an impact. But when you are doing drops, bumps, jumps, etc it comes more in to play.

    I just dropped about 2lbs off my wheels/tires/tubes. Not only has this improved the rotating mass characteristics (accelerating, braking) but it has also made the bike much more nimble and flickable.

    Get a 2.5ft stick and attach 15 lbs on the end. swing it around. Now add 2 more lbs on the end. It will become noticeably harder and less controlled. I think frame weight is the least important area because it is the centralized part of the bike. The further from the center, the harder it becomes to control.

    Just my .02 from racing motorcycles.

  10. #35
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    Just weighed my new 29er (well new frame and fork, rest was from old bike) - less pedals it is 23.5 lbs. I can still drop the tubes. Already have everything I need (don't need Stan's tape on Mavic Crossmax wheels), so I wonder how much that will save in weight.

    I just can't seem to bead the tire. Need to figure that one out.

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrismtnman View Post
    Just weighed my new 29er (well new frame and fork, rest was from old bike) - less pedals it is 23.5 lbs. I can still drop the tubes. Already have everything I need (don't need Stan's tape on Mavic Crossmax wheels), so I wonder how much that will save in weight.

    I just can't seem to bead the tire. Need to figure that one out.
    Are they UST tires?

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by moefosho View Post
    Are they UST tires?
    UST Wheels, not tubeless tires. Supposedly can still go tubeless on them.

  13. #38
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    Just curious, how much would you spend to drop 2.5 lbs off your bike...

    How much would I spend to drop 2.5lbs? If I couldn't get at least 2 of those pounds from a wheels/tire upgrade I would probably look to buy a lighter bike.
    "The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of a low price is forgotten." - Benjamin Franklin

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrismtnman View Post
    UST Wheels, not tubeless tires. Supposedly can still go tubeless on them.
    I've mounted many a non-UST tire on 26" CrossMax wheels. This:

    made life much easier. At Sears for $17.99
    Mountain bikers who don't road ride are usually slow.
    Roadies who don't mountain bike are usually d***s.

  15. #40
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    High performance parts have a shorter life span, how shorter will depend on use.

    Fork, wheels, tires and cranks are the worse offenders but if you're gram counting replacing Al for Carbon on certain parts helps a little but replacing steel for Al or Carbon helps a lot; this happens on the cockpit mainly on entry level bikes.

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiRt DeViL View Post
    High performance parts have a shorter life span, how shorter will depend on use.

    Fork, wheels, tires and cranks are the worse offenders but if you're gram counting replacing Al for Carbon on certain parts helps a little but replacing steel for Al or Carbon helps a lot; this happens on the cockpit mainly on entry level bikes.
    Where are you guys coming up with this crap? "High performance parts have a shorter life span", "Light parts are flexy". Seriously guys. You are sooooo off base here and worse - people might believe you.

    XT, XTR, XO, XX... this stuff is light, strong, extremely high-performance and will last for *#&$ing ever if you do even the most minimal maintenance.

    My 21 lb 1995 GT Zaskar was raced for years. It's still going strong - NEVER broke a part on it!
    My 16 pound Scott Addict SL (road bike) has over 20,000 miles on it. The carbon hasn't exploded, the drivetrain has survived countless 1400 + watt sprints, the Mavic wheels have crossed thousands of pot holes, train tracks, ruts... and are laser straight.

    I swear, you guys sound like the geeks who say "Good looking girls are all meanies".
    Mountain bikers who don't road ride are usually slow.
    Roadies who don't mountain bike are usually d***s.

  17. #42
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    ^ Yes

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldZaskar View Post
    Where are you guys coming up with this crap? "High performance parts have a shorter life span", "Light parts are flexy". Seriously guys. You are sooooo off base here and worse - people might believe you.

    XT, XTR, XO, XX... this stuff is light, strong, extremely high-performance and will last for *#&$ing ever if you do even the most minimal maintenance.

    My 21 lb 1995 GT Zaskar was raced for years. It's still going strong - NEVER broke a part on it!
    My 16 pound Scott Addict SL (road bike) has over 20,000 miles on it. The carbon hasn't exploded, the drivetrain has survived countless 1400 + watt sprints, the Mavic wheels have crossed thousands of pot holes, train tracks, ruts... and are laser straight.

    I swear, you guys sound like the geeks who say "Good looking girls are all meanies".
    I totally agree. XT/XTR lasts longer than Deore or Alivio. Save weight, lasts longer and yes, costs more. My guess is that most of these people don't know the difference between 5000, 6000 and 7000 series aluminum alloys. Heck they probably didn't even realize such alloys even exist.

    Back in the day some guy (can't remember his name) Strong, light, cheap-pick two.

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by moefosho View Post
    I get what you are saying. I suppose if you are riding somewhat smooth singletrack that static weight wont have much of an impact. But when you are doing drops, bumps, jumps, etc it comes more in to play.

    I just dropped about 2lbs off my wheels/tires/tubes. Not only has this improved the rotating mass characteristics (accelerating, braking) but it has also made the bike much more nimble and flickable.

    Get a 2.5ft stick and attach 15 lbs on the end. swing it around. Now add 2 more lbs on the end. It will become noticeably harder and less controlled. I think frame weight is the least important area because it is the centralized part of the bike. The further from the center, the harder it becomes to control.

    Just my .02 from racing motorcycles.
    Yes, that is why I was specifying "non-wheel" weight. 2.5 lbs on a tire or rim is going to be noticeable.
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

  20. #45
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    I am amazed at how many people can't just accept the hypothetical premise of the question and answer it.

    These days, for non-rotating weight, I think I would spend about $0.50 per gram of weight loss. I used to go about $1 per gram, but I've got different priorities for the bike these days.
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by kapusta View Post
    I am amazed at how many people can't just accept the hypothetical premise of the question and answer it.

    These days, for non-rotating weight, I think I would spend about $0.50 per gram of weight loss. I used to go about $1 per gram, but I've got different priorities for the bike these days.
    Doing the math by your figures it would cost $560 to drop 2.5lbs. Well worth it IMO.

    Truth be told, don't buy an off the shelf bike. Build it yourself and save weight and money...if you have the skills

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
    Doing the math by your figures it would cost $560 to drop 2.5lbs. Well worth it IMO.

    Truth be told, don't buy an off the shelf bike. Build it yourself and save weight and money...if you have the skills
    Bought a good deal on a used bike, took apart everything, bought a new frame and front shock, selling old frame and fork, and got to 23.5 for a grand. The wheels are $800 new. Pretty happy with it all.

  23. #48
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    For some numbers, I dropped 2.5lbs from my new fat bike by switching to a light 160g carbon bar, ultegra cassette, ti railed saddle, and light (standard) tubes.

    Cost to drop 1lb (bar, cassette, saddle) $310

    Cost to drop the additional 1.5lbs (tubes) $20

    The stock tubes were absolutely insanely heavy. Must be motorcycle tubes or something crazy!

    It varies so much by bike though. I calculated to drop the same amount on my new bike that hasn't arrived yet will be $650, which includes ditching the front shifter and derailer, converting to tubeless (those things are essentially free), carbon cranks, another ultegra cassette, another carbon handlebar and light saddle. This bike starts out much lighter (or the frame is heavier and it already has lightish components), and it gets hard to save weight when it is lighter already, and you get very marginal gains with upgrades, yet that's the only way to get those gains. More than twice as much to save the same amount of weight is a little ridiculous. If you've ever wondered how people end up with 22-23lb XC FS bikes and 26lb 6" travel bikes, well you've got to go high end on most everything, XTR or XX1 cranks, carbon rims, high end DT swiss or other hubset, XTR derailer, and so on. The price of just a few components added together can quickly equal more money than you paid for your bike.

    So it can be done, you can do it in certain ways that keep price down and make you compensate a little (road cassette, lightweight saddle, eggbeaters, no front derailer, tubless) but you can't always do that, and the "other way" is usually very expensive.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  24. #49
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    Just curious, how much would you spend to drop 2.5 lbs off your bike...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
    I totally agree. XT/XTR lasts longer than Deore or Alivio. Save weight, lasts longer and yes, costs more. My guess is that most of these people don't know the difference between 5000, 6000 and 7000 series aluminum alloys. Heck they probably didn't even realize such alloys even exist.

    Back in the day some guy (can't remember his name) Strong, light, cheap-pick two.
    Keith Bontrager and it is still true today.
    Riding slowly since 1977.

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
    Doing the math by your figures it would cost $560 to drop 2.5lbs. Well worth it IMO.
    Yes, that would be well worth it. Unfortunately it is seldom doable once you have a decent sped to start with. Easier to do when you already need to buy a part, and then you are just looking at the cost difference between the lighter and heavier parts. Buying new parts to replace working ones just to loose weight is a much more expensive way to go.

    Keep in mind that the OP is specifying "all things equal". In other words, lighter with zero compromises. I could EASILY loose 2.5 lbs off my 31 lb bike for well under $560, but I am not willing to make the compromises.

    Truth be told, don't buy an off the shelf bike. Build it yourself and save weight and money...if you have the skills
    As someone who built too many bikes to count, I agree that it can be lighter (or whatever you want it to be).... but cheaper? Usually not.

    Yes, you can be patient and find great deals on discounted and used stuff and build custom for cheaper than many people realize, but if you put that same energy into looking for discounted or used complete bikes, you will get it even cheaper.

    However, the price comparison is a little beside the point, because you are likely not building the same bike you would buy complete. I build custom because it is the only way to get exactly what I want, or because I already have a lot of the needed parts (so in that sense it is cheaper).
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

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