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  1. #1
    B.Ike
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    intergrated headset on an alloy frame?

    deal breaker?
    I'm looking at a frame, but this headset standard has me worried. What say you?

  2. #2
    Nouveau Retrogrouch SuperModerator
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    intergrated headset on an alloy frame?

    Quote Originally Posted by ElwoodT View Post
    deal breaker?
    I'm looking at a frame, but this headset standard has me worried. What say you?
    Not a deal breaker. It works fine.
    mtbtires.com
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  3. #3
    Live 2 Ride
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    Good to see you Shiggy. Where you been hiding?
    My Bike: '03 Specialized HardRock FrankenBike
    My Blog: http://http://kona0197.wordpress.com/

  4. #4
    official eMpTyBRain
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    Works just fine
    ...and proud member of the anti-sock puppet desolation

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawg View Post
    Works just fine
    I have three bikes with it for a few years with zero issues, but I was also scar at first.

  6. #6
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    intergrated headset on an alloy frame?

    Ten years on my Mtn bike, no issues at all. Just repack every year and it's fine


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  7. #7
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    maybe it is just me, but...

    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy View Post
    Not a deal breaker. It works fine.
    this integrated and integral headset poop is still not 100% clear to me...someone school me up please which one uses the HT as the bearing race. If the bearing gets trashed, it takes the frame with it
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails intergrated headset on an alloy frame?-dsc01911.jpg  

    intergrated headset on an alloy frame?-dsc01884.jpg  

    2014 Nail Trail 29er

  8. #8
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    None of them use the frame material as a bearing race. That would be completely idiotic. What you have with a traditional style headset that has been designed to use cartridge bearings is essentially an adaptor pressed into the head tube, with the cartridge bearing slipping into that. Some designs do away with the traditional looking cup, and seat the cartridge bearing into the head tube, which has been machined with the appropriate shape. Saves weight, was the pitch. Made things a bit cheaper to manufacture too. Also allowed for more material to weld to on the head tube, all other factors being equal. That can be an advantage, especially on the smallest size frames. I don't know of any failures of that system, but then no system is perfect.

  9. #9
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    um, not so sure...

    I agree with (as in I do not agree) with your "none of them use..." Do a little homework and get back to us...and maybe do a search on the Chris King website. There will be a test in the morning and yeah it certainly is idiotic
    2014 Nail Trail 29er

  10. #10
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    There is a lot of confusion about bearings in the bicycle business. Much of it comes from some poorly defined terms. "Bearing race" is one of the culprits. The thing that is usually called a "crown race" is, for example, not a bearing race unless the headset is of the old loose ball type. Then it's an actual bearing race. Likewise, most people insist on referring to cartridge bearings as "sealed bearings." This is like the "square is a rectangle" thing. Not all sealed bearings are cartridge bearings, and not all cartridge bearings are sealed. Even some of them that look like they are. If you use a "shielded" cartridge bearing where you need a sealed one, then you won't get much life out of it. But I don't have time to argue with all the geniuses at MTBR. Been there, done that. Got the T shirt, wore it out, then used it as a grease rag.

  11. #11
    Nouveau Retrogrouch SuperModerator
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    intergrated headset on an alloy frame?

    Quote Originally Posted by time229er View Post
    I agree with (as in I do not agree) with your "none of them use..." Do a little homework and get back to us...and maybe do a search on the Chris King website. There will be a test in the morning and yeah it certainly is idiotic
    No. All current integrated headsets are a cartridge bearing that drops into a bearing seat--not bearing race-- in the head tube. Nothing to wear out that is not replaceable. In practice, this has been just as reliable as pressed in headsets. It is just as possible to ovalize the frame headtube with either.
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  12. #12
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    ...what type of headset does CK refuse to support? It is the ding-bat design that "integrates" the alloy headtube with the headset bearings...no bearing cup pressed into the headset...bearing runs the on headtube
    2014 Nail Trail 29er

  13. #13
    Oh, the huge-meh-nity
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    Quote Originally Posted by ElwoodT View Post
    deal breaker?
    I'm looking at a frame, but this headset standard has me worried. What say you?
    Internal, sure. Integrated, no thanks.

    If there is a cup that is pressed in for a cartridge bearing to fret against, like in an internal headset, the cup will develop play and you can replace it. I personally don't see a headset with no cup that is just a drop in bearing competing with that in the long run. Will it work? Obviously it does well enough, they keep selling them...

  14. #14
    B.Ike
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    thanks for your responses, this is reassuring. My initial research had me thinking this was going to be a deal breaker.
    A "good to go" from Shiggy means a lot to me.
    This is the frame I'm looking at btw: On-One Parkwood Frame | On - One

  15. #15
    Nouveau Retrogrouch SuperModerator
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    intergrated headset on an alloy frame?

    Quote Originally Posted by time229er View Post
    ...what type of headset does CK refuse to support? It is the ding-bat design that "integrates" the alloy headtube with the headset bearings...no bearing cup pressed into the headset...bearing runs the on headtube
    If you do not like it, do not get a frame that uses it.
    Integrated headsets have been proven as reliable as press fit headsets.

    Should be noted that CK sells frames with headset cups permanently brazed into the head tube.
    mtbtires.com
    The trouble with common sense is it is no longer common

  16. #16
    Nouveau Retrogrouch SuperModerator
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    intergrated headset on an alloy frame?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zowie View Post
    Internal, sure. Integrated, no thanks.

    If there is a cup that is pressed in for a cartridge bearing to fret against, like in an internal headset, the cup will develop play and you can replace it. I personally don't see a headset with no cup that is just a drop in bearing competing with that in the long run. Will it work? Obviously it does well enough, they keep selling them...
    I have yet to see a cartridge bearing wallow out a cup. I have seen, and had, a press in cup ovalize a head tube, trashing the frame.

    When the bearing itself develops play with either type, you just replace the bearing.
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  17. #17
    Oh, the huge-meh-nity
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    Of course, that's the problem with new tech--we know all the ways a conventional external headset will fail, but there are no thirty or fifty or hundred year old examples of the new styles to see what happens with them.

  18. #18
    Nouveau Retrogrouch SuperModerator
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    intergrated headset on an alloy frame?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zowie View Post
    Of course, that's the problem with new tech--we know all the ways a conventional external headset will fail, but there are no thirty or fifty or hundred year old examples of the new styles to see what happens with them.
    The current frames will be long dead or out dated from other reasons long before 30 years have passed. We are using many, many component/frame designs that lack 30+ years of field use.

    CK's anti-integrated piece is 12 years old.
    The integrated HS is still being used with few, if any, of the problems proposed.
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  19. #19
    Oh, the huge-meh-nity
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    Interesting response.

  20. #20
    Nouveau Retrogrouch SuperModerator
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    intergrated headset on an alloy frame?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zowie View Post
    Interesting response.
    Bottom line:

    No, an integrated headset is not a deal breaker for choosing a frame.
    mtbtires.com
    The trouble with common sense is it is no longer common

  21. #21
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    I can't help noticing that there is not a single reference to an actual failure of a frame because of an integrated headset. Lots of imaginary ones, though! This place never changes.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy View Post
    If you do not like it, do not get a frame that uses it.
    Integrated headsets have been proven as reliable as press fit headsets.

    Should be noted that CK sells frames with headset cups permanently brazed into the head tube.
    thank you for the assistance, but... you still do not have a legit response to my original query...

    and, CK does not support the one you are describing...
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails intergrated headset on an alloy frame?-dsc01891.jpg  

    intergrated headset on an alloy frame?-dsc01914.jpg  

    intergrated headset on an alloy frame?-dsc01912.jpg  

    intergrated headset on an alloy frame?-dsc01853.jpg  

    intergrated headset on an alloy frame?-dsc01852.jpg  

    2014 Nail Trail 29er

  23. #23
    Nouveau Retrogrouch SuperModerator
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    intergrated headset on an alloy frame?

    Quote Originally Posted by time229er View Post
    thank you for the assistance, but... you still do not have a legit response to my original query...

    and, CK does not support the one you are describing...
    Your original question was answered, and you failed your own "test." No company currently produces an integrated headset/frame that uses a non-replaceable bearing RACE. They all use cartridge bearings, where the races are contained within the cartridge. The cartridge sits in a bearing SEAT formed into the head tube. They do NOT "run on the head tube." Trashing a cartridge bearing in any type of headset does not trash the cup or frame. You just replace the bearing.
    The depiction of an integrated HS in CK's 2002 rant is inaccurate in how the bearing is supported in the head tube. If this is the extent of your knowledge, it is very, very limited and incomplete.

    That CK does not support the common integrated HS standards does not matter. It is their choice. There are plenty of other companies that make them, and dang good ones.

    And why did you post drivetrain pics?
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy View Post
    Your original question was answered, and you failed your own "test." No company currently produces an integrated headset/frame that uses a non-replaceable bearing RACE. They all use cartridge bearings, where the races are contained within the cartridge. The cartridge sits in a bearing SEAT formed into the head tube. They do NOT "run on the head tube." Trashing a cartridge bearing in any type of headset does not trash the cup or frame. You just replace the bearing.
    The depiction of an integrated HS in CK's 2002 rant is inaccurate in how the bearing is supported in the head tube. If this is the extent of your knowledge, it is very, very limited and incomplete.

    That CK does not support the common integrated HS standards does not matter. It is their choice. There are plenty of other companies that make them, and dang good ones.

    And why did you post drivetrain pics?
    thanks for clearing that up...
    2014 Nail Trail 29er

  25. #25
    Nouveau Retrogrouch SuperModerator
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    intergrated headset on an alloy frame?

    Quote Originally Posted by time229er View Post
    thanks for clearing that up...
    This was all covered in other replies if you had bothered to read them.
    mtbtires.com
    The trouble with common sense is it is no longer common

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