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  1. #1
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    Improving the Current Mountain Bike Brake System - XPOST from Brake Time.

    in school, we've been asked to improve on an existing design. after a lot of thought, i have decided to work on the hydraulic brake systems on mountain bikes.

    i was wondering if you folks have any suggestions as to what sort of feature/improvement you would like to see from the current brake designs. what kind of pitfalls are there? what could be better?

  2. #2
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    Do you have to design the improvements, or just write about them?

    I'm thinking an ABS system would be pretty easy to add to the hydraulic brake setup. It would ad a bit of weight, but could be worth it on an AM or DH bike where weight isn't a huge concern anyway.

  3. #3
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    I got a design improvement idea, but its not about bikes. I think a recliner based computer desk would rule. Imagine sitting in a la-z-boy reclining it and the monitor would have to be housed in some type of frame then it would be held over you in perfect viewing positon, have that mechanism tied in with the recliner mechanism so when you get up it moves the monitor out of the way, a lil desk surface on a swivel for the keyboard on the left side, same thing on the right for the mouse. there ya go, you owe me $10 ehhh

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by AllKnowing
    I got a design improvement idea, but its not about bikes. I think a recliner based computer desk would rule. Imagine sitting in a la-z-boy reclining it and the monitor would have to be housed in some type of frame then it would be held over you in perfect viewing positon, have that mechanism tied in with the recliner mechanism so when you get up it moves the monitor out of the way, a lil desk surface on a swivel for the keyboard on the left side, same thing on the right for the mouse. there ya go, you owe me $10 ehhh
    Dude that's awesome. I'm always looking for new ways to have as little physical exertion as possible. Maybe you could combine it with one of those adjustable beds that changes from flat to sitting position. Then, you'd barely have to move all day.


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    Yeah you could have your porn in bed ehhh

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave In Florida
    Do you have to design the improvements, or just write about them?

    I'm thinking an ABS system would be pretty easy to add to the hydraulic brake setup. It would ad a bit of weight, but could be worth it on an AM or DH bike where weight isn't a huge concern anyway.
    Thats a good idea! Im gonna keep it in mind... thanks a lot!

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    Dude that's awesome. I'm always looking for new ways to have as little physical exertion as possible.
    Dont say it like that, in America we call it relaxing.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by AllKnowing
    I got a design improvement idea, but its not about bikes. I think a recliner based computer desk would rule. Imagine sitting in a la-z-boy reclining it and the monitor would have to be housed in some type of frame then it would be held over you in perfect viewing positon, have that mechanism tied in with the recliner mechanism so when you get up it moves the monitor out of the way, a lil desk surface on a swivel for the keyboard on the left side, same thing on the right for the mouse. there ya go, you owe me $10 ehhh

    Nice concept... but i dunno, I had my mind set on brake systems.... and the fracking thing is due by 5pm today, so i had already started typing stuff up.... its going to be a pita to scrap it all and start over with the porn in bed recliner idea.... where were you when I was brainstorming?

  9. #9
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    Well i had a thread on bike improvement, I learned all the good ideas are in use. I think explaining a bike ABS setup is gonna be tough. Wheel speed sensors, lil computerized gizmos, whewww. I think its gonna be a tough sell, so i know your done brainstorming, but ill throw this out there. I think a new type of locking bike rack would be a great idea. People would love to take their high end bicycles to stores, librarys etc. if they knew it wouldnt get stolen. Some kind of steel frame bike rack the wraps the bike, the cyclist will like it because all they would need to carry is a padlock. If possible throw in there the need to cut greenhouse gas emissions, call it the bike locker. Good god man your saving the planet, shaving 5lbs of weight on the urban bicycle, solving the obesity problem. Be careful if you use this idea, you might end up with a nobel prize, youll be cutting more greenhouse gas than gore lol, good luck

  10. #10
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    MTB ABS Braking System

    Quote Originally Posted by _ALX_
    Thats a good idea! Im gonna keep it in mind... thanks a lot!
    sounds like a very worthwhile project. We already have wireless trip computers. Use
    the same wheel sensor technology to detect lockup and design a modulator the hand
    controls pass through. Designed properly it could be marketed as an add-on compatible
    with most current braking systems.

    michael
    "Be not afraid of going slowly but only of standing still." - Chinese Proverb

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    Oh yeah be sure to have a basic air pump on each rack, you know something heavy duty like a pay phone so vandals couldnt screw it up. Nothin worse than going out to your bike and its got a flat. Damn thats a good idea!

  12. #12
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    change your handle

    it should read "AllAnnoying"
    "Be not afraid of going slowly but only of standing still." - Chinese Proverb

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by _ALX_
    Thats a good idea! Im gonna keep it in mind... thanks a lot!
    Hmm, this got me thinking...

    I think the biggest challenge to an ABS system on a mountain bike is that the wheels leave the ground a lot. I'm wondering if that would cause the abs to kick in more than it should if you are lightly braking over rough (but solid) terrain. I have to think that if a wheel leaves the ground even for a fraction of a second it will slow down quite a bit, and then re-accelerated when contact with the ground is achieved. For example how abs would deal with a wheel that is slowing down between each root in a series of roots where you are just skimming along the tops with the wheel slowing down between each one. Is it fast enough to disengage as soon as you hit the next root-top?

    Is ABS used much in serious off-road competitive applications where wheels are often off the ground?

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireDog46
    sounds like a very worthwhile project. We already have wireless trip computers. Use
    the same wheel sensor technology to detect lockup and design a modulator the hand
    controls pass through. Designed properly it could be marketed as an add-on compatible
    with most current braking systems.

    michael
    Sensor tied to the wheel speed sensor.
    The computer would have to be a bit larger (probably like an E-trex size) and would have to connect to a solenoid valve or something similar. Brake lines would have to run through the solenoid valve. Also a power source would be needed for the solenoid.

    It would certainly work, but would likely be heavy. And you'd have to probably go with a rear wheel sensor as well. I see it being overly complicated and not of much value. Something like shimano's airlines. It would be a great novelty item though.

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    I think mtbr should give me my own forum, itll be called the Da Vinci forum and youll have to pay to get access to my revolutionary ideas. FireDog get that credit card out, you know you would be a member lol

  16. #16
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    its funny that we are talking about ABS brakes. I put it that way because I was visualizing the same concept a couple of days ago. Here's my take:

    Have two sensors:
    One on each wheel to measure their rotational speed

    One sensor:
    Measure ground speed

    A simple, (probably ARM based) microprocessor controller that will continually monitor the feedback from the two sensors. If the two values from the sensors do not match closely, it can actuate the mechanism for ABS... until it starts to match up.

    As for how exactly what the ABS system could be, I was thinking of making a "ABS reservoir"- which would have two hoses routed from each of the brake systems- the front and back.

    Once the microprocessor detects an uneven speed from the two sensors, it can instruct the ABS reservoir to open a valve to let a little bit of fluid to come in from both the brake systems, thereby reducing the pressure on the calipers. Once the speed values from the two sensors starts to match up again, it can close the valve.

    It obviously needs a lot of fine tuning. The main thing is to make sure that there is no air in the system. I could keep going with my idea for quite a while... but hopefully this will start you up.


    Let us know how it goes.
    "Winners never quit. Quitters never win. But those who never win and never quit are idiots."

  17. #17
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    Why not just use a light sensor on the rotors to monitor the wheel/traction. Most rotors have holes light passes through. Hardest part will be the modulation of the brakes, hard to avoid using electronic controls but maybe possible to do mechanically, would be a fun project!

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by AllKnowing
    I think mtbr should give me my own forum, itll be called the Da Vinci forum and youll have to pay to get access to my revolutionary ideas. FireDog get that credit card out, you know you would be a member lol
    My god...you're a new breed of dumbass...

  19. #19
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    ABS would be most effective on the front brake IMO. Like Kapusta said, the rear jumps around alot. But then on steep descents it's really hard to lock up the front anyway.

    How about power assisted brakes. Just a little but too help with those all day DH days.
    Switchable on/off.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by wormvine
    ABS would be most effective on the front brake IMO. Like Kapusta said, the rear jumps around alot. But then on steep descents it's really hard to lock up the front anyway.

    How about power assisted brakes. Just a little but too help with those all day DH days.
    Switchable on/off.
    thanks a lot to all who came up with ideas... im still holding on and working with the ABS idea.....


    how would power assisted brakes be of help? what would their job be? do you think there might be a huge difference between 203mm 4piston brakes and power assisted ones? let me know what you all think...

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave In Florida
    I'm thinking an ABS system would be pretty easy to add to the hydraulic brake setup.
    Lol.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by wormvine
    ABS would be most effective on the front brake IMO. Like Kapusta said, the rear jumps around alot. But then on steep descents it's really hard to lock up the front anyway.

    .
    You must have really crappy brakes. I can easily lock the front brake on steep descents, and I have the broken helmets to prove it!

    I agree this would only matter for the front, who cares if you lock up the rear? Sometimes it even helps you steer. And yes, I know it's bad for the trails and I don't make it a habit, but if it's crash or skid a little, I'll abuse the trail before my body, thank you.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rufudufus
    You must have really crappy brakes. I can easily lock the front brake on steep descents, and I have the broken helmets to prove it!

    My brakes work pretty well. I said it was hard to lock up the front, not impossible. Certainly a lot harder than the back brakes with your weight in a neutral position. Just hitting the front brakes causes the front end to dive and more force is exerted on the front tire helping traction while the opposite happens to the rear.
    I would say that a front brake that causes you to go OTB and break helmets would be bad brakes. No modulation. I certainly don't want my front brake to lock up easily. I want range.
    Also, bad tires or improper position on the bike can unweight the front end and cause the front bike to lock up on steep descents. If you are sitting on your tire, you are doing it wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by _ALX_
    how would power assisted brakes be of help? what would their job be? do you think there might be a huge difference between 203mm 4piston brakes and power assisted ones? let me know what you all think...
    Power assisted brakes would help apply more pressure with less finger pressure and you could probably use smaller pistons and smaller rotors to get the same power. After a hard day of DH'ing my hands are cramping and I can barely squeeze the brakes. Of course, it could increase the chance of locking up. Now how about power assisted ABS brakes.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by AllKnowing
    ...cutting more greenhouse gas than gore lol, good luck
    All Gore did something do reduce greenhouse gases?

    BM
    "I've come to believe that common sense is not that common" - Matt Timmerman

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by kapusta
    Is ABS used much in serious off-road competitive applications where wheels are often off the ground?
    Apparently not. Pure off-roaders pull the fuse or install a kill switch.
    http://www.4x4abc.com/4WD101/ABS_offroad.html
    Traditionally ABS prevents any wheel lockup. This can actually be a problem off-road.
    In sand or gravel, a locked wheel plows the surface, shortening the braking distance.
    With ABS the wheels skate across the surface and can lead to longer braking distances.
    New for 2008 in some off-road vehicles is what they call selectable On/Off-Road ABS.
    Off-Road ABS provides for cycling lockup to allow the plowing effect to occur.
    The latest for Jeep and Porsche have it.

    I still think ABS for an MTB would be an interesting experiment.
    Hey...a decade or so ago people laughed at the idea of disc brakes for bikes.
    Who knows...a decade from now we might have light weight sophisticated ABS for a bike.

    michael
    "Be not afraid of going slowly but only of standing still." - Chinese Proverb

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