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  1. #101
    Bicycles aren't motorized
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    Quote Originally Posted by ALimon View Post
    What amazes me is how much time you non e bike folk spend on ebike topics. You all kick n scream like it’s goung to make a difference. E bikes are coming with or without you.




    Errr, this isn't the moped forum. Mopeds on out trails are not inevitable, especially with guys like you at the forefront of the discussion. Mountain Bikers thank you for single handedly killing any chance of mopeds being allowed on non-motorized trails.
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  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by ALimon View Post
    What amazes me is how much time you non e bike folk spend on ebike topics. You all kick n scream like it’s goung to make a difference. E bikes are coming with or without you.
    I'll see you on the commute.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shayne View Post
    This is the funniest thing I've read on the internet in years.

    Enforced

    LOL
    As strictly as they can I'd say. They literally 'patrol' all day looking for infractions. On a trail system it's shocking if there's even an authority present, much less doing anything.

    You should take some time off MTBR and watch some cat videos, there's some pretty funny ones out there. Certainly better than this thread.

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  4. #104
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    Because today’s PAS bikes use “your” energy. They don’t move unless you pedal them with “your” energy. Thats what makes today’s motors different.

  5. #105
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    Do we still give a "dumbest thread of the week" award?

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by ALimon View Post
    Because today’s PAS bikes use “your” energy. They don’t move unless you pedal them with “your” energy. Thats what makes today’s motors different.
    C'mon, anyone who's ridden them knows that's a farce. I can spin the cranks without actually putting pressure on the drivetrain and it goes. I do 25 mph laps around the shop all the time doing this; get it up to speed, then just sit back and literally 'go through the motions' while it does all the work.

    Motor = motorized. Hard to logic your way around that.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDwayyo View Post
    C'mon, anyone who's ridden them knows that's a farce. I can spin the cranks without actually putting pressure on the drivetrain and it goes. I do 25 mph laps around the shop all the time doing this; get it up to speed, then just sit back and literally 'go through the motions' while it does all the work.

    Last time I checked cranks don’t spin by themselves.... going through the motions requires energy. Did you skip physics?

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by ALimon View Post
    One word the anti e bike crowd likes to use is “purist”. It’s comical how they think because they pedal a long travel 29er with a 50t they’re a purist! LOL. What a joke. Anyone riding a modern full suspension bike is not a purist by any means. Everyone is looking for a gimmick to smooth out the trail and go faster easier. So in essence, everyone is riding with some sort of assist.
    Actually, if you read through the threads, it's the ebikers who throw out the term "purist", kind of as an insult. Most of us refer to ourselves as "mountain bikers" or "cyclist". I don't see any need to use the term "purist" since we're just riding bicycles. Just ride your ebike and be an ebiker. Why is that so difficult?
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  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by ALimon View Post
    Because today’s PAS bikes use “your” energy. They don’t move unless you pedal them with “your” energy. Thats what makes today’s motors different.
    Wow, has the ebike industry really fooled you that successfully that you believe that?

    Once again, my car doesn't move unless "my energy" pushes the pedal.
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  10. #110
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    The link below might be helpful in this thread:

    https://www.skepticalraptor.com/skep...cal-fallacies/

    e-bikes and/or the argument in support of them being allowed on the trail is not equivalent to the argument of allowing only human powered bikes on the trails.

    IMO your best bet is to argue allowing e-bikes on trails based upon their own merits, not based upon trying to create a false equivalency.

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by ALimon View Post
    Because today’s PAS bikes use “your” energy. They don’t move unless you pedal them with “your” energy. Thats what makes today’s motors different.
    Sorry man, the only way that works is if you're pedaling a generator, but you really do know that, right? Intentionally obtuse or willfully ignorant? Either way, it doesn't play well.
    "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt"

  12. #112
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    Man, I wish I had video of the guy I mentioned earlier. He was cruising up the hill, while everyone else was fighting the wind. It was a wtf moment for sure.
    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    Wow, has the ebike industry really fooled you that successfully that you believe that?

    Once again, my car doesn't move unless "my energy" pushes the pedal.
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  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckha62 View Post
    Sorry man, the only way that works is if you're pedaling a generator, but you really do know that, right? Intentionally obtuse or willfully ignorant? Either way, it doesn't play well.
    Show me cranks that move by themselves? I’m waiting....

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckha62 View Post
    Sorry man, the only way that works is if you're pedaling a generator, but you really do know that, right? Intentionally obtuse or willfully ignorant? Either way, it doesn't play well.
    It’s all they’ve got. And it’s rampant among the motor bike set.


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  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by ALimon View Post
    Show me cranks that move by themselves? I’m waiting....
    I'll concede to your dizzying intellect. Your reasoning is clearly beyond reproach. I'm prepared to declare you the winner, the king of the interwebs. All Hail King Humperdink!
    "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt"

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDwayyo View Post
    Also correct, everyone is riding with some sort of assist... It's called a bicycle, it's really difficult to ride without one. Every part of it is designed to assist you in using your energy as efficiently as possible. I repeat; using your energy as efficiently as possible.
    Not exactly. Lots of parts of bikes are designed to use gravity as efficiently as possible to propel the bicycle downhill. It's a natural power source being enhanced by man made devises.

    Now imagine if a battery were charged with hydro-electric power, which of course is generated by gravity acting on water and causing it to flow downhill, and you used that battery to power a man made devise that propels a bicycle uphill. You'd have a bike that goes uphill, AND downhill with gravity as it's power source.


  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by ALimon View Post
    Last time I checked cranks don’t spin by themselves.... going through the motions requires energy. Did you skip physics?
    Spinning the cranks is literally the same as turning a throttle in this case, since none of your energy is actually put to the drivetrain (and don't say it's always put to the drivetain, we've both ridden them and we both know that isn't true.)... Turning a throttle also requires energy, so why is that different?

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by _CJ View Post
    Not exactly. Lots of parts of bikes are designed to use gravity as efficiently as possible to propel the bicycle downhill. It's a natural power source being enhanced by man made devises.

    Now imagine if a battery were charged with hydro-electric power, which of course is generated by gravity acting on water and causing it to flow downhill, and you used that battery to power a man made devise that propels a bicycle uphill. You'd have a bike that goes uphill, AND downhill with gravity as it's power source.

    Oh man, you got me. When the e-bike that can only be powered by your own personal hydroelectric dam (no pumping the water up first and no damaging ecosystems with the dam) hits the market I'm really gonna eat my words.

    Why do you waste your time with such stupidity?

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    Errr, this isn't the moped forum. Mopeds on out trails are not inevitable, especially with guys like you at the forefront of the discussion. Mountain Bikers thank you for single handedly killing any chance of mopeds being allowed on non-motorized trails.
    Our opinions mean nothing in terms of the future of an eMTB. Arguing points on the internet mean absolutely nothing.

    It’s going to to come down to the law makers. And you better hope the law makers don’t become pro eMTB, which eventually they will. When that happens, you will be on the outside looking in. And then there is the money factor, better known as the bike industry, money always has a weird way of changing hands and changing laws. So argue away, it’s fun and entertaining, nothing more

  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by ALimon View Post
    Show me cranks that move by themselves? I’m waiting....

    Replace "cranks" in that sentence with "throttle" I'm waiting.......


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  21. #121
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    Hyperbole, the currency of the desperate.
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  22. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by _CJ View Post
    Not exactly. Lots of parts of bikes are designed to use gravity as efficiently as possible to propel the bicycle downhill. It's a natural power source being enhanced by man made devises.

    Now imagine if a battery were charged with hydro-electric power, which of course is generated by gravity acting on water and causing it to flow downhill, and you used that battery to power a man made devise that propels a bicycle uphill. You'd have a bike that goes uphill, AND downhill with gravity as it's power source.

    Well then, with that sort of convincing logic, I want a solar powered e-bike so I can have a fusion powered bike.

  23. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by slowpoker View Post
    Do we still give a "dumbest thread of the week" award?
    This thread or Is the Earth Flat thread? Maybe it's a tie
    video=youtube;][/video]...

  24. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Replace "cranks" in that sentence with "throttle" I'm waiting.......




    If we do I vote for this one.
    Ridiculous argument. Cycling wether a standard or a PAS bike pedal with their legs. Cranks don’t move without pedaling on a PAS bike

  25. #125
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    bi·cy·cle
    ˈbīsək(ə)l/
    noun
    noun: bicycle; plural noun: bicycles

    1.
    a vehicle composed of two wheels held in a frame one behind the other, propelled by pedals and steered with handlebars attached to the front wheel.

    mo·tor
    ˈmōdər/
    noun
    noun: motor; plural noun: motors

    1.
    a machine, especially one powered by electricity or internal combustion, that supplies motive power for a vehicle or for some other device with moving parts

    mo·ped
    ˈmōˌped/
    noun
    noun: moped; plural noun: mopeds

    a low-power, lightweight motorized bicycle.

    no motorized means no motor. a moped or the marketing term "e-bike" has a motor.
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  26. #126
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    Seriously though.

    motor vs no motor. the end.

  27. #127
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    I'll be honest, if I was a moderator I would be sick to the back teeth of this endless bickering and would be handing out bans. It's the same argument, over and over again and it's getting on my nerves. While not entirely to blame, certain ebike advocates are mostly to blame. They twist the issue any way they can and flatly refuse to concede the simple facts. Let me state them again:

    High-powered electric bikes should not share space with walkers and pedal cyclists. The disparity in speed is dangerous and the weight and torque of the machines can potentially damage certain trails.

    It is inevitable that some selfish people will either modify lower powered eBikes to exceed safe limits, or simply buy powerful bikes, and ride them in inappropriate places.

    Those charged with regulating and policing trails, parks and paths cannot be expected to differentiate between a low-powered eBike and modified or higher powered bikes at the side of the trail/road. As the technology improves, and eBikes get more stealthy, this task will only become harder.

    As it is necessary to keep powerful machines off of the routes in question, there is no option but to blanket ban all electric bikes from them.


    It's not about how a current class-1 eBike ridden safely compares to a down-hill bike. We are talking about the future. From cars to telephones and hydrogen bombs, every technology we have invented has been improved. It is one-hundred percent inevitable that electric bikes will get faster, more powerful, stealthier and when they do, people are going to get hurt.

    Another issue with them is the fact that they are quiet. Dirt bikes make a racket, you can't sneak around on one, but ebikes are virtually silent. This poses two problems. Firstly, people will be more inclined to ride them in places they shouldn't as, unless you are standing right next to them, you're not likely to get caught.

    The other is that people won't hear them coming. Years ago we were walking along the cycle path when two young guys came tearing along on dirt bikes. We grabbed the kids, who were small at the time, and the guys whooped and hollered as they flew past. They made the mistake of coming back. I managed to stop them and explained that if they didn't get off the cycle track they were unlikely to enjoy what I would do to them! ;0)

    Those guys shouldn't have been on that track with dirt bikes, but that's the kind of things that kids do. When eBikes get cheaper and can be made to go faster, you honestly think that kids just like them are not going to do similar things? Especially when they can be so stealthy about it?

    You're going to see it on the news. Muppets are going to buy or make fast eBikes, fly down trails and hit people. They're going to hit hikers, they are going to hit kids, they are going to hit cyclists. It will happen anyway, no matter what rules or laws are put in force. and if you don't think this is going to happen you're either an idiot or a liar.

  28. #128
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    Garbage bears...shift their focus, gnomsay'n
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  29. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    Wow, has the ebike industry really fooled you that successfully that you believe that?

    Once again, my car doesn't move unless "my energy" pushes the pedal.
    You’re right, cars move by pushing a pedal down. PAS bikes move by pedaling. I’m glad we got the cleared up

  30. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by richde View Post
    Why are moderators trolling?

    If you are personally against ebike discussions, why are you discussing them so much?
    Trolling? I don't think you know what trolling is if you think anything I have posted is trolling.

    Moderators are actively encouraged to engage in conversation on this site. The trick is to not abuse ones power as a moderator to censor other's posts that one does not agree with.
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  31. #131
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    oops, withdrawn, someone posted before me and it looked like my response was to him when it wasn't.
    Last edited by chazpat; 05-16-2018 at 05:00 PM.
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  32. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    While not entirely to blame, certain ebike advocates are mostly to blame.
    Funny, it's the anti's raising all the stink in my view. Just look at the OP. It's not even about e-bikes, but these dudes are just flat out triggered by the mere appearance of the word "e-bike". They completely lose their shit, and start ranting about them, even though that's not the subject of the post.

    It's really bizarre how people are unable to keep themselves from clicking on a thread they think might offend them, and how they're unable to navigate away without first going completely bonkers. They're like those college kids shouting down people with a point of view they disagree with. I don't know, maybe that's where they learned it. To hell with free speech and reasonable discourse, all voices that don't agree with theirs must be SILENCED!


    .

  33. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by _CJ View Post
    Funny, it's the anti's raising all the stink in my view. Just look at the OP. It's not even about e-bikes, but these dudes are just flat out triggered by the mere appearance of the word "e-bike". They completely lose their shit, and start ranting about them, even though that's not the subject of the post.




    .




    The entirety of the first paragraph of your op is e-bike content. So, it's about e-bikes or you are trolling, pick one.
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  34. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by _CJ View Post
    Funny, it's the anti's raising all the stink in my view. Just look at the OP. It's not even about e-bikes, but these dudes are just flat out triggered by the mere appearance of the word "e-bike". They completely lose their shit, and start ranting about them, even though that's not the subject of the post.

    It's really bizarre how people are unable to keep themselves from clicking on a thread they think might offend them, and how they're unable to navigate away without first going completely bonkers. They're like those college kids shouting down people with a point of view they disagree with. I don't know, maybe that's where they learned it. To hell with free speech and reasonable discourse, all voices that don't agree with theirs must be SILENCED!

    .
    You said this is satire. Still waiting for it. This sounds like trolling.

    It’s still equivocation. That jump in logic is going to piss people off and you know it.
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  35. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by _CJ View Post
    Funny, it's the anti's raising all the stink in my view. Just look at the OP. It's not even about e-bikes, but these dudes are just flat out triggered by the mere appearance of the word "e-bike". They completely lose their shit, and start ranting about them, even though that's not the subject of the post.

    It's really bizarre how people are unable to keep themselves from clicking on a thread they think might offend them, and how they're unable to navigate away without first going completely bonkers. They're like those college kids shouting down people with a point of view they disagree with. I don't know, maybe that's where they learned it. To hell with free speech and reasonable discourse, all voices that don't agree with theirs must be SILENCED!


    .
    Speaking of reasonable discourse, have you made a point yet?

  36. #136
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    You all sound a lot like horse people/hikers talking about MTBs invading their trails years ago.............
    Last edited by tom erb; 05-16-2018 at 08:16 PM.

  37. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by tom erb View Post
    You all sound a lot like horse people/hikers talking about MTBs invading there trails years ago.............



    And in many cases, they were right.......


    And it's "their"...
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  38. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by tom erb View Post
    You all sound a lot like horse people/hikers talking about MTBs invading there trails years ago.............

    Same exact crap

  39. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by tom erb View Post
    You all sound a lot like horse people/hikers talking about MTBs invading there trails years ago.............
    Except the mountain bikers didn't try to claim they should just be considered as "hikers" or "equestrians"; they stood as their own user group. They didn't make wild claims that mountain bikers were just "mechanical hiking" or "a mechanical horse" and that they would replace "purist" hikers and horseback riders.
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  40. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by _CJ View Post
    Funny, it's the anti's raising all the stink in my view. Just look at the OP. It's not even about e-bikes, but these dudes are just flat out triggered by the mere appearance of the word "e-bike". They completely lose their shit, and start ranting about them, even though that's not the subject of the post.

    It's really bizarre how people are unable to keep themselves from clicking on a thread they think might offend them, and how they're unable to navigate away without first going completely bonkers. They're like those college kids shouting down people with a point of view they disagree with. I don't know, maybe that's where they learned it. To hell with free speech and reasonable discourse, all voices that don't agree with theirs must be SILENCED!


    .
    How many negative reps have you gotten so far, troll?
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  41. #141
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    It’d really, really, be nice if there was simply an eMTBR.com to move all this motor related crap to.

  42. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    Except the mountain bikers didn't try to claim they should just be considered as "hikers" or "equestrians"; they stood as their own user group. They didn't make wild claims that mountain bikers were just "mechanical hiking" or "a mechanical horse" and that they would replace "purist" hikers and horseback riders.
    Are you kidding me? Maybe in your area, but that was not the case my area. It was flat ugly between horse people and the mtb community.

  43. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by _CJ View Post
    Funny, it's the anti's raising all the stink in my view. Just look at the OP. It's not even about e-bikes, but these dudes are just flat out triggered by the mere appearance of the word "e-bike".
    As usual you try to twist things round by pulling out the one line of my post that you think lets you accuse others of persecuting you. You have not responded to the rest of my post or answered any of the issues it raises. No one has. You just ignore them and keep bleating.

    And you wonder why eBikers are not popular?

  44. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by _CJ View Post
    to use gravity as efficiently as possible to propel the bicycle downhill.
    Keyword "use" not "generate" I wont entertain the rest of your nonsense

  45. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post

    High-powered electric bikes should not share space with walkers and pedal cyclists. The disparity in speed is dangerous and the weight and torque of the machines can potentially damage certain trails.

    It is inevitable that some selfish people will either modify lower powered eBikes to exceed safe limits, or simply buy powerful bikes, and ride them in inappropriate places.

    Those charged with regulating and policing trails, parks and paths cannot be expected to differentiate between a low-powered eBike and modified or higher powered bikes at the side of the trail/road. As the technology improves, and eBikes get more stealthy, this task will only become harder.

    As it is necessary to keep powerful machines off of the routes in question, there is no option but to blanket ban all electric bikes from them.


    It's not about how a current class-1 eBike ridden safely compares to a down-hill bike. We are talking about the future. From cars to telephones and hydrogen bombs, every technology we have invented has been improved. It is one-hundred percent inevitable that electric bikes will get faster, more powerful, stealthier and when they do, people are going to get hurt.

    Another issue with them is the fact that they are quiet. Dirt bikes make a racket, you can't sneak around on one, but ebikes are virtually silent. This poses two problems. Firstly, people will be more inclined to ride them in places they shouldn't as, unless you are standing right next to them, you're not likely to get caught.

    The other is that people won't hear them coming. Years ago we were walking along the cycle path when two young guys came tearing along on dirt bikes. We grabbed the kids, who were small at the time, and the guys whooped and hollered as they flew past. They made the mistake of coming back. I managed to stop them and explained that if they didn't get off the cycle track they were unlikely to enjoy what I would do to them! ;0)

    Those guys shouldn't have been on that track with dirt bikes, but that's the kind of things that kids do. When eBikes get cheaper and can be made to go faster, you honestly think that kids just like them are not going to do similar things? Especially when they can be so stealthy about it?

    You're going to see it on the news. Muppets are going to buy or make fast eBikes, fly down trails and hit people. They're going to hit hikers, they are going to hit kids, they are going to hit cyclists. It will happen anyway, no matter what rules or laws are put in force. and if you don't think this is going to happen you're either an idiot or a liar.
    As an aside, if you would find arguments not based off of a fallacy people might take them a tad more serious.

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  46. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by ALimon View Post
    Show me cranks that move by themselves? I’m waiting....



    See, they do move by themselves when not powered by a human.

  47. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by EABiker View Post


    See, they do move by themselves when not powered by a human.




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  48. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by _CJ View Post
    Just look at the OP. It's not even about e-bike......
    Not right

    In one sentence , the title , he gives his very strong opinion on two distinct subject.
    And that's a negative opinion in case you didn't get it.

    It quickly shifted to the second subject of the title , with good reason.

    Downhill bikes are still non-motorized vehicule and have their place in a non-motorized forum like MTBR.
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  49. #149
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    I enjoy bikes over moto's.
    Stick around if you're housebroken...

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaXCarp View Post
    Tires are just "traction assist" I can't believe you guys need tires are on your bike. Grips are just "hand control assist" jeez ya buncha wimps! Pedals are just "stand assist" devices...grow a pair.

    Common sense ain't too common.
    Very true, wish these guys would see brakes as stop assist and stop posting.

  51. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cerberus75 View Post
    Very true, wish these guys would see brakes as stop assist and stop posting.
    The electronics have malfunctioned, throttle is stuck wide open.

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    I take the Amish approach to mountain bike technology- does this technology encourage me to pursue some ideal, pure form of mountain biking that I enjoy? if not, I don't want it. for example, I just now put a dropper post... on my rigid singlespeed, which is the only mountain bike I own.

    YMMV, but I'll laugh at you if I see you in the woods on a bike with a sissy motor. you can chose to give a F what I think of you.

    if we keep going down the rabbit hole of allowing technology to change the way we ride, we'll all be in some Ready Player One-esque world where "mountain biking" means standing on a Rip Row for 30 minutes with an Occulus Rift strapped on, experiencing the same e-enduro run that someone did in 2019.
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  53. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by mack_turtle View Post
    I take the Amish approach to mountain bike technology- does this technology encourage me to pursue some ideal, pure form of mountain biking that I enjoy? if not, I don't want it. for example, I just now put a dropper post... on my rigid singlespeed, which is the only mountain bike I own.

    YMMV, but I'll laugh at you if I see you in the woods on a bike with a sissy motor. you can chose to give a F what I think of you.

    if we keep going down the rabbit hole of allowing technology to change the way we ride, we'll all be in some Ready Player One-esque world where "mountain biking" means standing on a Rip Row for 30 minutes with an Occulus Rift strapped on, experiencing the same e-enduro run that someone did in 2019.
    Where's your cabin so I know where to send authorities when you start mailing your 'packages' out?

    You're basically giving the 'if god had intended us to fly, we'd have wings' argument. If you really feel that all technology is such a slippery slope then maybe you shouldn't be posting on an internet forum.

    That said, as has been beaten to death for the past year, motors are a reasonable place to draw a line since human-powered has always been a major principle of the bicycle.

  54. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbmb65 View Post
    Ok, I think I understand. So cars and gas powered motorcycles should be allowed on trails as well? As long as they’re responsible? Is that it?


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    I am saying a 1000w ebike on a trail is less of a threat to other trail users than a car is to other road users. As a commuter, road cyclist and mtn biker, that is my very clear observation.

  55. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by knutso View Post
    I am saying a 1000w ebike on a trail is less of a threat to other trail users than a car is to other road users. As a commuter, road cyclist and mtn biker, that is my very clear observation.
    That's fair. Not sure why it matters, though. In fact I gave a handful of reasons why it doesn't, which you ignored.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDwayyo View Post
    Laws are very specific (nearly every possible circumstance is covered by them) and strictly enforced on the roads, making collisions very unlikely and typically due to human error. On the trails there are only vague laws, some general guidelines and zero enforcement. The result is that collisions are somewhat likely and are often simply 'wrong place, wrong time' instances.

    Also, roads are necessities in our modern society. Vehicle deaths are tragic, but considered a worthwhile sacrifice for the convenience roads give us (at least that's the implied sacrifice one makes in using them). Trails are for recreation, the amount of risk we as a society should accept is decreased. We could drop all speed limits to 15 for roads and that'd save lives, but it'd hurt our society as a whole (again, at least that's the implied consensus) whereas if everyone has to take it a little easier on trails to avoid injuries that's no biggie.

    Next in the nearly never-ending line of reasoning for why your comparison is ridiculous, cars are licensed and regulated. You must be of an age our society deems responsible and then jump through some hoops to show you're responsible. If you make a poor choice with your car, you may not be allowed to drive a car for a while... Or ever again. There is no such regulation with bikes or trails.

    Then there's the difference in vehicle cost; I don't really care if I lay my bike down, I do nearly every ride. I don't like to even think about denting my car, much less wrecking it. My risk/reward calculations are very different between the two, as they are for everyone I'd guess. The guy in the monster V8 may be a jerk, but I bet he doesn't want to see a scratch on that car. Put the same guy on a bike and see how much he cares about a little scratch or ding.

    I feel like I could go on for days, but I don't think it's necessary. The fact that you either couldn't think of these on your own, or did and didn't think them significant, tells me I'm probably wasting my time here.
    Go on. Automobiles are the number one cause of death and injury outside of disease, and the number one source of pollution. You were explaining how the 1.3 million deaths and 50 million injuries per year are the results of very unlikely and worthwhile accidents. Then you said ebikes on trails are more of a menace because people may be less afraid of scratching them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by knutso View Post
    Go on. Automobiles are the number one cause of death and injury outside of disease, and the number one source of pollution. You were explaining how the 1.3 million deaths and 50 million injuries per year are the results of very unlikely and worthwhile accidents. Then you said ebikes on trails are more of a menace because people may be less afraid of scratching them.
    Took you that long to respond and this is the lazy ass response I get?

    Yes, when one considers the number of cars on the road at any given moment it becomes clear that automobile accidents are unlikely. Do you drive every day? How many accidents have you been in... Do the math.

    I did not say they were worthwhile, I very purposefully included '(at least that's the implied sacrifice one makes in using them)' and '(again, at least that's the implied consensus)' to show that I didn't necessarily feel that way. It is clear, however, that our society does. We talk a lot about how to reduce traffic deaths, and yet stopping cars from driving never seems to come up (interestingly it's things like seat belts and helicopter evac that gets discussed, showing that we don't care to avoid the accidents, just the deaths)... That's because we as a society deem the risk worth the reward. Until people start crying to get cars off the road, that's a fair assumption. (Same goes for pollution; I don't really agree with it and hope to get an e-bike to commute on some day... But society as a whole doesn't seem to mind.)

    Also gave a reason why people work hard to avoid car accidents, but less so to avoid bike accidents. I crash my bike at least once every two weeks or so (and put myself in the position to do so every ride), I try to never crash my car (and never knowingly put myself in a position to). If you don't understand that concept that's your issue, not mine, but trying to oversimplify it when everyone can read what I actually said in the quote is a waste of your time.

    This is why I didn't go on; you can barely read and comprehend what I already wrote. Why bother? Are you truly this dense, or just pretending to be so you can save face?

  58. #158
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    Guys in full sus are snowflakes

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  59. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDwayyo View Post
    Took you that long to respond and this is the lazy ass response I get?

    Yes, when one considers the number of cars on the road at any given moment it becomes clear that automobile accidents are unlikely. Do you drive every day? How many accidents have you been in... Do the math.

    I did not say they were worthwhile, I very purposefully included '(at least that's the implied sacrifice one makes in using them)' and '(again, at least that's the implied consensus)' to show that I didn't necessarily feel that way. It is clear, however, that our society does. We talk a lot about how to reduce traffic deaths, and yet stopping cars from driving never seems to come up (interestingly it's things like seat belts and helicopter evac that gets discussed, showing that we don't care to avoid the accidents, just the deaths)... That's because we as a society deem the risk worth the reward. Until people start crying to get cars off the road, that's a fair assumption. (Same goes for pollution; I don't really agree with it and hope to get an e-bike to commute on some day... But society as a whole doesn't seem to mind.)

    Also gave a reason why people work hard to avoid car accidents, but less so to avoid bike accidents. I crash my bike at least once every two weeks or so (and put myself in the position to do so every ride), I try to never crash my car (and never knowingly put myself in a position to). If you don't understand that concept that's your issue, not mine, but trying to oversimplify it when everyone can read what I actually said in the quote is a waste of your time.

    This is why I didn't go on; you can barely read and comprehend what I already wrote. Why bother? Are you truly this dense, or just pretending to be so you can save face?
    Dense to what? You are iterating the social acceptance of automobiles. I know. Whether the pollution, death and injury is "worth it" is a different discussion.

    I said I am far more bothered by cars on the road than ebikes on the trails. I've had a friend killed and another ( mother of two ) have her foot ripped off in car accidents.

    To go further, being bothered more by cars than ebikes is not a tu quoque fallacy. As I am not discrediting the idea that ebikes are dangerous. I am attempting to illustrate going after ebikes, while driving a car, is like a great white going after a piranha because it has teeth. They are both dangerous, but which is more of a threat to the cyclist?

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    Quote Originally Posted by knutso View Post
    Dense to what? You are iterating the social acceptance of automobiles. I know. Whether the pollution, death and injury is "worth it" is a different discussion.

    I said I am far more bothered by cars on the road than ebikes on the trails. I've had a friend killed and another ( mother of two ) have her foot ripped off in car accidents.

    To go further, being bothered more by cars than ebikes is not a tu quoque fallacy. As I am not discrediting the idea that ebikes are dangerous. I am attempting to illustrate going after ebikes, while driving a car, is like a great white going after a piranha because it has teeth. They are both dangerous, but which is more of a threat to the cyclist?
    OK, this is a well-stated response that shows me you actually read and comprehended my post. My apologies if I came off too harsh, but the post I responded to grossly oversimplified what I had written. Not sure why you didn't respond this way the first time, but oh well - it's appreciated now.

    You did seem to be saying that because cars are more of an issue we should dismiss e-bikes, glad to hear you're not. I'd love to rid the world of cars too, but that's a whole 'nother issue. I have a (incredibly small) hand in shaping trail usage, but not vehicle usage on roads so you can understand why I spend my efforts where I do.

    I'm also not a road cyclist for exactly that reason. I wish there was more infrastructure for road cyclists, which seems like it would be easy to implement, but there isn't. I support groups that advocate for it in my area, but MTB is my passion.

    Given all that, and my points above which I think stand (particularly that roads are built for transit and not recreation unlike trails), do you still think that I should withhold my opinion on e-bikes simply because I drive a car?

    This reminds me of my thoughts on the overuse of plastics and unnecessary trash like straws; I really want to decrease my output of garbage, but some of the worst forms of it are unavoidable for me. Should I not worry about the drinking straws, because I'm already purchasing foods with way more packaging than necessary?

    Change what I can, accept what I cannot or something like that, right?

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    Most people don't only ride downhill. At 95% of singltracks in the U.S., people have to climb, ride flats, and descend and most people are carrying an extra 4-5lbs on their full suspension bikes vs a hardtail so what you gain in suspension is offset by weight. I would call that tradeoffs, not cheating. In my area, 9 out of the 10 top Strava times are held by hardtails and rigids even though the majority of people ride full suspension bikes.

    The problem with an e-bike is there are very few tradeoffs so it is like cheating.

  62. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by midwestmtb View Post
    Most people don't only ride downhill. At 95% of singltracks in the U.S., people have to climb, ride flats, and descend and most people are carrying an extra 4-5lbs on their full suspension bikes vs a hardtail so what you gain in suspension is offset by weight. I would call that tradeoffs, not cheating. In my area, 9 out of the 10 top Strava times are held by hardtails and rigids even though the majority of people ride full suspension bikes.

    The problem with an e-bike is there are very few tradeoffs so it is like cheating.
    It is only cheating if you reference it as a bicycle. They are not bicycles due to having a motor so they are not cheating.
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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    It is only cheating if you reference it as a bicycle. They are not bicycles due to having a motor so they are not cheating.
    Ya, cheating is a stupid term in this discussion. Cheating means a competition governed by rules. MTB isn't a competition unless you're in one and the rules are to keep all trail users safe, not keep things 'fair.'

    My concerns are for user safety, real or perceived, and how it will impact access. Got no problem working out how to safely implement e-bikes where appropriate, it's those claiming they should be combined with bicycles and allowed anywhere bicycles are that bother me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    No, it is a place to discuss eBikes and eBike parts for Class 1 eBikes....
    You forgot it’s also a place to discuss throttle controlled class 2 and 28mph class 3 ebikes.

    And apparently it’s also a place to talk about e-motorcycles that have over 750w as well, right?
    Second post in the below thread is about a producing 780 watts of power!!! And your going to just sit there and let that post that clearly defies the ebike forum rules stand?!?!?
    Any new technology for aftermarket pedal assist only mid drives

  65. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by tahoebeau View Post
    You forgot it’s also a place to discuss throttle controlled class 2 and 28mph class 3 ebikes.

    And apparently it’s also a place to talk about e-motorcycles that have over 750w as well, right?
    Second post in the below thread is about a producing 780 watts of power!!! And your going to just sit there and let that post that clearly defies the ebike forum rules stand?!?!?
    Any new technology for aftermarket pedal assist only mid drives
    This thread isn't in the ebike forum, those rules don't apply....

  66. #166
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    This thread should die. Quietly.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    This thread isn't in the ebike forum, those rules don't apply....
    The one he linked, which I believe is what he was referencing, is.

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    Are full suspension bikes the e-bikes of downhill?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    This thread isn't in the ebike forum, those rules don't apply....
    The link is in the e-bike forum where the pro e-bike moderators let all that go
    Last edited by sfgiantsfan; 05-18-2018 at 01:25 PM.
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  69. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDwayyo View Post
    Fantastic false equivalence! (Super original too.)

    Can be refuted with one word; motor. It's not about technology that makes it incrementally easier to ride, it's about what powers the vehicle - on bikes it's the rider, on motorized vehicles it's a motor. That simple.
    Precisely.

    But they'll try to compare every tiny nuance of component technology and conveniently forget the whole "motor" thing.

    btw...DH Gravity guys DO NOT get a break on Multi-use trails. They are self-policed and watched by the user community. It's widely known that it's unacceptable in my vast network of City and St. Park trails because the network doesn't lend itself to high speed descent in many areas due to sight lines and the fact we have 2-way traffic and hikers/runners. DH'rs ride an area that offers gravity trails and nary a hikers to be seen. There are NO conflicts on that riding area.

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  71. #171
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    Some real reasons why mountain bikers hate e-bikes.

    - Mountain bikers are elitist and snobby.
    - Mountain bikers are purists.
    - Mountain bikers don't want to share their trails.
    - Mountain bikers fear their for their precious Strava times.
    - Mountain bikers can't stomach being passed uphill by less fit people.

    I don't think an e-bike is the same thing as a moto. Obviously it's inbetween an mtb and a moto but much closer to an mtb.
    "You can be clipped in and be boring or ride flats and have a good time." - Sam Hill

  72. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by tealy View Post
    Some real reasons why mountain bikers hate e-bikes.
    Or perhaps some of the real reasons why mountain bikers don't hold your opinion in very high regard?

  73. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by tealy View Post

    I don't think an e-bike is the same thing as a moto. Obviously it's inbetween an mtb and a moto but much closer to an mtb.
    But clearly, what you don't know, would fill a warehouse.

  74. #174
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    Is this a serious discussion or is some troll trying to start a fight?
    Ride your own ride and enjoy the trail. If your satisfaction is determined by your opinion of what other trail riders should or should not do then you have more problems than can be addressed on a bike forum.

  75. #175
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    e-bike hate is imagined.
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  76. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by tealy View Post
    e-bike hate is imagined.




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  77. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by tealy View Post
    Some real reasons why mountain bikers hate e-bikes.

    - Mountain bikers are elitist and snobby.
    - Mountain bikers are purists.
    - Mountain bikers don't want to share their trails.
    - Mountain bikers fear their for their precious Strava times.
    - Mountain bikers can't stomach being passed uphill by less fit people.

    I don't think an e-bike is the same thing as a moto. Obviously it's inbetween an mtb and a moto but much closer to an mtb.
    Umm, I seem to recall that you are a mountain biker so I will assume you are speaking for yourself.
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    tealy's just all cranked up because he hasn't worked that 1-finger braking deal yet.
    I brake for stinkbugs

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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    tealy's just all cranked up because he hasn't worked that 1-finger braking deal yet.
    That or he's mad he didn't think of the past few gems himself...

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    Quote Originally Posted by _CJ View Post
    No shortage of people demonizing e-bikes here because pedal assist is "cheating". Makes it easier to go uphill, turns a mediocre rider into a fast rider, etc.
    Ok maybe not cheating, but it certainly cheapens the activity, for me, to have an electric motor strapped to my mountain bike helping me up the mountain. Kind of negates the point, for me. If you enjoy it though, have at it. Why you so sensitive?

    Quote Originally Posted by _CJ View Post
    Can the same not be said for full suspension bikes? Is bicycle suspension really just "bump assist"? Making it easier to go faster downhill, makes rough trails into smooth trails, turns a mediocre rider in to a fast rider?
    Does suspension make it easier? Sure. But that's a whole different ballgame than adding a motor to the bike. Still, if you hang around the mountain bike community long enough, you'll find that most mountain bikers have lots of respect for the "old school" folks who have the skill and wherewithal to ride fully rigid. It's part of the mountain biking ethos - we seek a challenge. That's why ebikes are anathema to many of us, because it removes a fundamental aspect of he challenge of mountain biking.

    Quote Originally Posted by _CJ View Post
    Seems like those "bad ass" riders on full suspension non-motorized bikes might be hypocrites. At the bottom of the trail, are the guys on rigid bikes the ones who "earned it"? Are the full suspension guys "cheating"?
    We're all hypocrites on some level I suppose. I still hate ebikes, though.

    P.S. you'd have a better argument if you compared ebikes to lift-assisted DH mountain biking. It still wouldn't change my mind about ebikes, though. A fundamental aspect of mountain biking is that it's non-motorized. Add a motor, and you might as well go all the way to motocross because you're no longer mountain biking in my opinion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tealy View Post
    Some real reasons why mountain bikers hate e-bikes.

    - Mountain bikers are elitist and snobby.
    - Mountain bikers are purists.
    - Mountain bikers don't want to share their trails.
    - Mountain bikers fear their for their precious Strava times.
    - Mountain bikers can't stomach being passed uphill by less fit people.

    I don't think an e-bike is the same thing as a moto. Obviously it's inbetween an mtb and a moto but much closer to an mtb.
    You ever hear that when you find yourself thinking everyone around you is an asshole, it's really you?

  82. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by tealy View Post
    e-bike hate is imagined.
    By the moto crowd for sure! i hear ya.
    Stick around if you're housebroken...

  83. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oh My Sack! View Post
    btw...DH Gravity guys DO NOT get a break on Multi-use trails. They are self-policed and watched by the user community. It's widely known that it's unacceptable in my vast network of City and St. Park trails because the network doesn't lend itself to high speed descent in many areas due to sight lines and the fact we have 2-way traffic and hikers/runners. DH'rs ride an area that offers gravity trails and nary a hikers to be seen. There are NO conflicts on that riding area.
    So are you making the point that e-bikes should be allowed on mountain bike trails, but self-policed and watched by the user community?

    Or are you making the point that because DH bikes can go downhill much faster than is safe on some trails, they should specifically not be allowed on those trails?

    Because it sounds like you are making the nonsensical argument that ebikes should not be allowed on trails because the equipment allows someone to go faster than is safe, but DH bikes should be allowed on trails even though the equipment allows someone to go much faster than is safe.

  84. #184
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    maybe the solution is that we need to segregate MTB trails so that people who ride very cautiously and always attend trail building days and never spin tires get to ride all the sanitized trials and that e-bikers and shredders get everything else.

    have fun hand polishing your berms and yelling at kids on hoverboards.
    "You can be clipped in and be boring or ride flats and have a good time." - Sam Hill

  85. #185
    Mr. Buck E. Fikes
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    So, those of us that design, build, and maintain trail only work and roll on sanitized trails? Wow, this just gets better and better by the minute!

    You should probably step away from the computer, you're stepping in it pretty deeply.

  86. #186
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    The thing about eBikes is that, while they're cool and useful, I'm not sure why their riders hover around mountain bike forum bragging about them. That would be like me visiting a running web site and asking for advice on doing a marathon on roller skates.

    Yeah...roller skates are cool but it's not running even if may look remotely similar.

  87. #187
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    Man ebiker logic makes me hate ebikes even more.

    They have a motor. That's why they're not allowed on non-motorized trails. Full stop. End of story.

    Go ride your ridiculous moped toy on moto trails and leave us alone.

  88. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by ALimon View Post
    Because today’s PAS bikes use “your” energy. They don’t move unless you pedal them with “your” energy. Thats what makes today’s motors different.
    Ok, so this is a pretty dumb as feck thing to say, but just to be pedantic about it...

    The principal of operation in both a car and an eBike are exactly the same. When you press the accelerator pedal in your car you are using your right leg muscles to do it. The harder you press, the more power is delivered by the engine.

    The amounts of energy required by the user and the amounts delivered by the machine are wildly different, but the principal is the same.

  89. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by ALimon View Post
    Because today’s PAS bikes use “your” energy. They don’t move unless you pedal them with “your” energy. Thats what makes today’s motors different.
    So , there is no battery ?
    "There is a big difference between kneeling down and bending over" -FZ

  90. #190
    Beer Please! SuperModerator
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    Quote Originally Posted by tahoebeau View Post
    You forgot it’s also a place to discuss throttle controlled class 2 and 28mph class 3 ebikes.

    And apparently it’s also a place to talk about e-motorcycles that have over 750w as well, right?
    Second post in the below thread is about a producing 780 watts of power!!! And your going to just sit there and let that post that clearly defies the ebike forum rules stand?!?!?
    Any new technology for aftermarket pedal assist only mid drives
    Just a note since you have less than 250 posts on this site and perhaps don't know. The Moderators are volunteers and spend their free time moderating this site. We do not have time to read every single post in every single thread every single day. If you see something that is breaking the rules, please use the "report post" button located along the bottom of the post in question so we can be notified.

    Making posts like this mocking our work is not helpful at all.

    Also, this thread has run its course, has drifted off-topic and was probably just a terrible attempt at trolling to begin with.
    Ride Bikes, Drink Craft Beer, Repeat.

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