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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    Curious if any of you guys experiencing this are running Ardent tyres on the front??
    Yes, but only with the 2.25 on 26". It doesn't hook up and washes out.... not to be confused with tucking. The solution was to fit a 2.4 which is a totally different beast with proper edge blocks.
    Got it on video too. Caught me completely by surprise and I wasn't even pushing it.

    How not to ride Corners, Rotorua. Video - Pinkbike

    I used to tuck the front on my Amp B4 with 90mm stem and somewhere in the neighborhood of a 70 degree head angle. I would turn into a high speed corner and the ground would reach out and grab the wheel and twist it inwards, throwing me over the bars. Part of it was bad technique on my part. Standing too upright on the bike and steering it too much instead of leaning it. The long stem and poor geometry just made it worse.

    By the way, talking about high-siding a motorbike is not helpful. Tucking the front on a road-race bike is when you go into a corner too hot on the front brake and it loses traction, tucking in in the process. Mortals like me then low-side it and chuck it down the road. Legends like Colin Edwards can save it with their knee.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37sl4YI-aYE

    Tucking the front on a mountain bike is a different beast and what I used to call jack-knifing.
    Posting on the basis that ignorance shared is ignorance doubled.

  2. #52
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    Deathwishbiker, I would seriously not recommend the technique you were espousing to turn your mountain bike. Don't reach for the front brake to put more weight on it in a corner.

    Watch some videos, like this:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gF5K9V2w6W8


    One thing that will help:
    Heavy feet, light hands.... Stand on your outside pedal, drop your heel, and allow your knee to bend slightly, preferably in toward the frame. Physically lift your outside elbow, push down on your inside grip to create lean angle, and twist your hips to stick your ass outwards and your upper body in.
    Do NOT lean on the outside grip! This mucks up your front tire's ability to track the terrain and loses you a lot of traction. Your weight should be centered on the bike, not leaning on the front.
    And braking in a turn adds an extra axis of force on your front tire when it is already fighting for grip. Don't do it.
    Posting on the basis that ignorance shared is ignorance doubled.

  3. #53
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    This is similar to the turning technique I read about (I forget where) but it has improved my descending greatly - especially on smooth gravel / dirt where grip is really hard to find.

    Basically you always have the inside pedal at 12 o'clock, outside at 6 o'clock, light hands, heavy feet (centre your weight on the bike), push down more on the outside foot than the inside, lean the bike into the turn, turn your hips into the turn too and let the bars find their natural attitude (don't lean on or turn the bars more than they want to).

    This should allow you to use your entire bike and body to steer and harminise between the lean angle and the angle of the bars, rather than just relying overly on any one component to turn.

    When I first tried it, I was cornering at my usual pace and felt that I was in danger of toppling over into the turn - apparently a sign that you can take the turn faster.

    Oh, and never NEVER use the brakes once you are committed to turning. Always adjust our speed beforehand. A light drag on both brakes are fine to scrub off some speed but if you try to grab a hand full of brakes (front, back of both) in a turn you are asking to eat dirt.

  4. #54
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    One way to look at it is trail: normally trail is positive and indicates the distance between where the steerer axis is pointing (forward) and tire contact patch (rear).

    A slacker head tube angle means the steerer axis is pointing further forward -> fork offset is increased to prevent trail from increasing. When suspension compresses, the head tube angle steepens, and trail is reduced. Effectively if your bike was handling quickly at sag height, it will steer even more quickly when compressed. Even if the rear suspension compresses as well, trail is still reduced because head tube height is lower (steerer axis can't point that far forward).

    When you run into a bump, the tire has a new contact patch much further forward than normally. The contact patch could be in front of the point where the steerer axis is pointing, and you get effectively negative trail. If the front wheel is straight, no problem. If it was turned to either side, it will try to turn further.

    Again, leaning helps against this movement and having a solid grip on the bars will stop any surprises. Leaning a lot means you must counter-steer, and counter-steering helps against tucking.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saul Lumikko View Post
    One way to look at it is trail: normally trail is positive and indicates the distance between where the steerer axis is pointing (forward) and tire contact patch (rear).

    A slacker head tube angle means the steerer axis is pointing further forward -> fork offset is increased to prevent trail from increasing. When suspension compresses, the head tube angle steepens, and trail is reduced. Effectively if your bike was handling quickly at sag height, it will steer even more quickly when compressed. Even if the rear suspension compresses as well, trail is still reduced because head tube height is lower (steerer axis can't point that far forward).

    When you run into a bump, the tire has a new contact patch much further forward than normally. The contact patch could be in front of the point where the steerer axis is pointing, and you get effectively negative trail. If the front wheel is straight, no problem. If it was turned to either side, it will try to turn further.

    Again, leaning helps against this movement and having a solid grip on the bars will stop any surprises. Leaning a lot means you must counter-steer, and counter-steering helps against tucking.
    That's what I said...
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleas View Post
    In my world, the definition of "front end tuck" is when you get into an oversteer situation. Everyone I know attributes it to a too-soft suspension fork.
    When you enter the turn, braking or not, if the fork compresses too far as you load it for front traction (or just due to g-forces), the head angle changes enough that the fork trail becomes too small/short. Beyond a certain threshold, esp. with steeper headangles, the fork trail causes an increase in oversteer even as the bike is already oversteering.
    It can be corrected most simply with an increase in fork pressure, with wider bars, or maybe a higher offset fork, or maybe a longer fork if the bike frame will tolerate it.

    I ride rigid so I NEVER have that problem.

    -F

    PS - I just got back from a weekend of riding where we reminisced about crashes at that trail system (they love to remind me how I hit most of the downhill turns too hot and ride off into the forest). One of the worst was a guy on a FS bike who oversteered through a g-out and got stuffed into the wall when his bars practically ripped out of his hands. The combination of high speed, possibly low tire pressure, really high g-forces through the turn, and narrow bars resulted in a wicked crash. Essentially, the bars crossed, the bike stopped, and he got stuffed into the turn, shoulder-first.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost_HTX View Post
    This is similar to the turning technique I read about (I forget where) but it has improved my descending greatly - especially on smooth gravel / dirt where grip is really hard to find.

    Basically you always have the inside pedal at 12 o'clock, outside at 6 o'clock, light hands, heavy feet (centre your weight on the bike), push down more on the outside foot than the inside, lean the bike into the turn, turn your hips into the turn too and let the bars find their natural attitude (don't lean on or turn the bars more than they want to).

    This should allow you to use your entire bike and body to steer and harminise between the lean angle and the angle of the bars, rather than just relying overly on any one component to turn.

    When I first tried it, I was cornering at my usual pace and felt that I was in danger of toppling over into the turn - apparently a sign that you can take the turn faster.

    Oh, and never NEVER use the brakes once you are committed to turning. Always adjust our speed beforehand. A light drag on both brakes are fine to scrub off some speed but if you try to grab a hand full of brakes (front, back of both) in a turn you are asking to eat dirt.
    ^^^That's a very understandable way of saying it.

    -F
    It's never easier - you just go faster.

  6. #56
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    To reiterate the "tuck" or "flop" I'm referring to is not a front end washout or really anything related to traction. It's more of a geometry thing. I think Saul's relating it to steering trail hits upon what is going on. I've thought about it that way too.

    Another way to think about it is the steering reaches an inflection point where the tire wants to reverse rolling direction. I can feel it just riding on the street and doing tighter and tighter slalom turns. You'll reach a point where the steering kind of catches.

    I don't think the cause is rider error necessarily, but better turning technique keeps you away from that inflection point.

    I've tried to think about what I could physically change on the bike to help avoid this. It would be interesting to only change fork offset to see whether more or less offset helps.

  7. #57
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    Actually, referring to what Fleas wrote; I only ride rigid too - so compression of the front suspension is not really an issue for me either

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    Quote Originally Posted by SoCal-Rider View Post
    I don't think the cause is rider error necessarily, but better turning technique keeps you away from that inflection point.
    Everything is rider error.

    Some things can be made worse, made better, improved upon, or prevented based on a gear swap, but not knowing how your bike is going to operate in different circumstances I still claim as operator error. The bike didn't cause the rider to wipe out. How the rider was riding it caused the rider to wipe out.

    Just like driving a car in snowy/icy conditions. When you blow a turn and slam into a snowbank. Was the car at fault? Was the conditions at fault? I am sure you would love to say so, but it was your driving too fast, braking technique, or a combination of the two that caused the accident.

    If you had a failure on your bike, such as a tire pop, catastrophic frame/fork break, etc? Ok, that is potentially out of your realm of control. If you are riding, the bike operates as intended, and you lose control of it? Sorry, but that is you.

    I am not perfect either. I have wiped out. My pedal kicked a rock or stump and shot my bike sideways with me still attached to it. I was on the ground before knowing what happened. I could start investigating different cranks, different pedals, different geometries, and whatever else. That or I could watch my lines better to know what is coming and how to handle it.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost_HTX View Post
    Actually, referring to what Fleas wrote; I only ride rigid too - so compression of the front suspension is not really an issue for me either
    Right. Unless you've got a leaky front tire, it never happens on a rigid bike. Well, maybe in a really tight turning g-out I might get a little ahead of myself once in awhile and induce it via weight transfer, but the fork is pretty constant.

    -F
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  10. #60
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    I've never experienced "front end tuck", although I'd like to. Anybody know where I could attend a front end tuck beginner training course? And are they pricey?
    Quote Originally Posted by Trevor Ochmonek View Post
    So then, I'm not a sock or am I?.. Doggonnit

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    I've never experienced "front end tuck", although I'd like to. Anybody know where I could attend a front end tuck beginner training course? And are they pricey?
    Look for a turn, sit upright, flip the bars 90deg to a side and enjoy the ride. A helmet and/or jockstrap may be desired.

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  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    Anybody know where I could attend a front end tuck beginner training course? And are they pricey?
    No. PayPal me £100 then ride round your garden with your phone in your pocket. I'll call you and when you try to answer you'll do a front-end tuck ;0)

  13. #63
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    This is exactly how I crashed bad and took a bunch of skin out of my forearm this summer. I went into a loose corner with some lean but the front wheel started washing out, so I stood up on the bike and turn the bars and then I'm sliding on the ground as the bike flew to the opposite side of where i fell. Sounds like a lame excuse but the Fox CTD fork with crappy mid-stroke support was partly to blame for me not able to recover the initial slide. The thing brake-dove like crazy even in Trail mode and I felt I couldn't load the front tire well since it blew through travel so quickly. I ended up selling that fork after I crashed and now I have no issues (knock on wood).

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    I've never experienced "front end tuck", although I'd like to. Anybody know where I could attend a front end tuck beginner training course? And are they pricey?
    This guy teaches front end tuck classes:
    Name:  buffalobill.jpg
Views: 1273
Size:  28.2 KB

    He IS pricey though... It might cost you a small dog or part of your lower intestine.

    -F
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  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fleas View Post
    This guy teaches front end tuck classes:
    Name:  buffalobill.jpg
Views: 1273
Size:  28.2 KB

    He IS pricey though... It might cost you a small dog or part of your lower intestine.

    -F
    ...or a bottle of lotion.

  16. #66
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    I have your dog, mister!!

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Understater View Post
    Yes, but only with the 2.25 on 26". It doesn't hook up and washes out.... not to be confused with tucking. The solution was to fit a 2.4 which is a totally different beast with proper edge blocks.
    Got it on video too. Caught me completely by surprise and I wasn't even pushing it.

    How not to ride Corners, Rotorua. Video - Pinkbike

    I used to tuck the front on my Amp B4 with 90mm stem and somewhere in the neighborhood of a 70 degree head angle. I would turn into a high speed corner and the ground would reach out and grab the wheel and twist it inwards, throwing me over the bars. Part of it was bad technique on my part. Standing too upright on the bike and steering it too much instead of leaning it. The long stem and poor geometry just made it worse.

    By the way, talking about high-siding a motorbike is not helpful. Tucking the front on a road-race bike is when you go into a corner too hot on the front brake and it loses traction, tucking in in the process. Mortals like me then low-side it and chuck it down the road. Legends like Colin Edwards can save it with their knee.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37sl4YI-aYE

    Tucking the front on a mountain bike is a different beast and what I used to call jack-knifing.
    Same principal with the front end tuck, that vid is a save kinda of, really he crashed and got lucky. Saving a front end slide is easy to me now, to bleed off corner speed w hen racing I would purposely slide the front end. Takes some balls to learn, and it did cross over to mountain bike riding.

    The big difference in the way we crash vs a motorcycle, steering lock, mountain bike don't have one , bars go further and can odd fun to the way you crash.

    We can even high side a MTB, heavy brakes into a corner, skid the rear, let go of brakes, catch traction and time. For a ride.

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    Quote Originally Posted by terrasmak View Post
    Same principal with the front end tuck, that vid is a save kinda of, really he crashed and got lucky. Saving a front end slide is easy to me now, to bleed off corner speed w hen racing I would purposely slide the front end. Takes some balls to learn, and it did cross over to mountain bike riding.

    The big difference in the way we crash vs a motorcycle, steering lock, mountain bike don't have one , bars go further and can odd fun to the way you crash.

    We can even high side a MTB, heavy brakes into a corner, skid the rear, let go of brakes, catch traction and time. For a ride.
    I am getting OT a little, but I have gotten a weird feeling from the front end of my Yamaha FJR from time to time when leaning hard. I am wondering if it is going to push, or just flop over on its side. It feels like it will push if I go harder without getting out of control - which sounds like what you can do on purpose. I know I have done this on our tandem MTB in slick conditions. That bike seems to not want to tip over, even when the front tire is sliding. It has to slide a very long way to actually lose it. Maybe the wheelbase is what forgives the tuck in those cases.

    -F
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  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fleas View Post
    Maybe the wheelbase is what forgives the tuck in those cases.
    I think so. That and the shear weight of the bike. If you think about the stalled front wheel is trying to throw the bike, either sideways or up in the air. The length and weight on the tandem will make that very hard for it to do.

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    I experienced the tuck for the first time in a long time. Was trying to "force" a downhill switchback with lots of loose rocks and roots.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fleas View Post
    I am getting OT a little, but I have gotten a weird feeling from the front end of my Yamaha FJR from time to time when leaning hard. I am wondering if it is going to push, or just flop over on its side. It feels like it will push if I go harder without getting out of control - which sounds like what you can do on purpose. I know I have done this on our tandem MTB in slick conditions. That bike seems to not want to tip over, even when the front tire is sliding. It has to slide a very long way to actually lose it. Maybe the wheelbase is what forgives the tuck in those cases.

    -F
    Weight, traction ( tire comp and surface) head tube angle , wheelbase , body position and even suspension will effect the outcome. Basically everything

  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by terrasmak View Post
    Weight, traction ( tire comp and surface) head tube angle , wheelbase , body position and even suspension will effect the outcome. Basically everything
    That's just it... on the tandem, the weight (~370#), a loss of traction (2.3 Nevegal up front), HTA= ~70 , the wheelbase, the static body position, and no suspension, and it won't fall over. It's crazy! It seems the overbearing variables are the weight and the wheelbase, when compared to all other bikes. Same with the motorcycle.

    -F
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  23. #73
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    "Front end tuck" sounds like when you've been on a long ride & you get "turtlehead" from your crotch going numb. Like the cyclist's version of the famous George Costanza "shrinkage."

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    Stay Off The Front Brake!

  25. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveRider View Post
    "Front end tuck" sounds like when you've been on a long ride & you get "turtlehead" from your crotch going numb. Like the cyclist's version of the famous George Costanza "shrinkage."
    Similar but George had an excuse. It was cold the water was cold.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trevor Ochmonek View Post
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  26. #76
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    I didn't see this discussion the first go-around, but someone linked to it from another discussion today... Good stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Understater View Post
    Got it on video too. Caught me completely by surprise and I wasn't even pushing it.

    How not to ride Corners, Rotorua. Video - Pinkbike

    I used to tuck the front on my Amp B4 with 90mm stem and somewhere in the neighborhood of a 70 degree head angle. I would turn into a high speed corner and the ground would reach out and grab the wheel and twist it inwards, throwing me over the bars. Part of it was bad technique on my part. Standing too upright on the bike and steering it too much instead of leaning it. The long stem and poor geometry just made it worse.

    By the way, talking about high-siding a motorbike is not helpful. Tucking the front on a road-race bike is when you go into a corner too hot on the front brake and it loses traction, tucking in in the process. Mortals like me then low-side it and chuck it down the road. Legends like Colin Edwards can save it with their knee.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37sl4YI-aYE

    Tucking the front on a mountain bike is a different beast and what I used to call jack-knifing.
    Cool vid of your ride, bummer that you crashed. It happens pretty fast, but it appeared to me that you caught some air while the bike was cranked over, and you didn't have enough weight on the front after landing. You had a pretty classic lowside, not this 'tuck' and then highside that others are attempting to describe.


    One thing that is missing from the previous discussion is that this doesn't happen often, or possibly at all, on a motorcycle because of the remarkable difference in center of gravity. The rider is a huge proportion of the weight of a MTB+rider combination, and typically a rider is about roughly half of the weight of a dirtbike+rider, and less than 1/3 of a sportbike+rider. On average.

    So, when the the MTB tire loses traction, then gains it, physics are all too eager to launch the very high CoG of the rider right over the top. The ability of the bars to turn to 90deg helps, but isn't necessary for being ejected.

  27. #77
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    ...........

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    I almost experienced this on today's ride and this thread came to mind. Excuse me if it hasn't happened to you but trust me in saying, it will if you ride with careless abandon.
    Quote Originally Posted by Trevor Ochmonek View Post
    So then, I'm not a sock or am I?.. Doggonnit

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    ...........
    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    I almost experienced this on today's ride and this thread came to mind. Excuse me if it hasn't happened to you but trust me in saying, it will if you ride with careless abandon.
    Ok DJ...Nat threw the bait...and you took it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cleared2land View Post
    Ok DJ...Nat threw the bait...and you took it.
    Seven months later.
    Quote Originally Posted by Trevor Ochmonek View Post
    So then, I'm not a sock or am I?.. Doggonnit

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    I am now on alert DEFCON 5 for the Front-end Tuck. I'm sure if I am missing something, but I can't make myself turn the bars 90*.

  32. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cleared2land View Post
    Ok DJ...Nat threw the bait...and you took it.
    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    Seven months later.
    Ha ha, what did I even say?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    Ha ha, what did I even say?
    Nothing, I wasn't replying to your post like C2L lead us all to believe. I almost had a front end tuck yesterday on my ride.
    Quote Originally Posted by Trevor Ochmonek View Post
    So then, I'm not a sock or am I?.. Doggonnit

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    See...you took the bait.
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  35. #85
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    About a week ago I saw some old dude, looked to be about 70 - 75 years old, riding an older style e-bike down a hill (urban setting, he was on the sidewalk). He came to a crosswalk and he obviously wanted to cross. The problem was that when he turned left to get into the crosswalk he had a near front end tuck and almost dumped the bike. He tried like hell to get the thing straightened out. I thought for sure he was going to end up just shooting out into traffic. But at the end of the day the geezer got the rig straightened out and into the crosswalk in one piece. Whew!
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    Quote Originally Posted by MozFat View Post
    I am now on alert DEFCON 5 for the Front-end Tuck. I'm sure if I am missing something, but I can't make myself turn the bars 90*.
    That's what bites you, you don't turn the bars, physics does.

    The same phenomenon can be seen on loose and steep downhills where the rider doesn't have their weight far enough back. The front wheel breaks loose and then catches hard. This does potentially, almost certainly really, does two things, yanks the handlebars, even just slightly, in one direction and slows the bike suddenly causing the rider to put even more weight forward. Now that the bars are off center that weight shift is going to naturally put more weight on the outside bar and continue turning sharper and sharper. The wheel crosses the maximum perpendicular threshold, the end starts to lift and gravity, and momentum, do the rest.

    The same thing happens in corners but gravity really isn't in play, just forward momentum. Ever heard of someone trashing a wheel in a smooth, flat corner. The same forces likely happened whether they managed to lay it down or went over the bars.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mookie View Post
    About a week ago I saw some old dude, looked to be about 70 - 75 years old, riding an older style e-bike down a hill (urban setting, he was on the sidewalk). He came to a crosswalk and he obviously wanted to cross. The problem was that when he turned left to get into the crosswalk he had a near front end tuck and almost dumped the bike. He tried like hell to get the thing straightened out. I thought for sure he was going to end up just shooting out into traffic. But at the end of the day the geezer got the rig straightened out and into the crosswalk in one piece. Whew!
    So a front end tuck doesn't age discriminate.
    Quote Originally Posted by Trevor Ochmonek View Post
    So then, I'm not a sock or am I?.. Doggonnit

  38. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    So a front end tuck doesn't age discriminate.
    Oh yeah. It can happen to anybody at any time. Often without any warning.
    Let's eat Ted
    Let's eat, Ted
    Remember, commas save lives

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    Quote Originally Posted by Geralt View Post
    I'm not sure if I've ever experienced what you're talking about, but is this just wheel flop, perhaps exacerbated by the terrain?
    This. It's called wheel flop guys.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mookie View Post
    Oh yeah. It can happen to anybody at any time. Often without any warning.
    This is true. I saw some geezer tucking his front on the dh once, was a bloody mess. Poor sob
    ...

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